Author Topic: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread  (Read 123578 times)

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Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #240 on: September 25, 2018, 01:01:08 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Dave Joerger, speaking on how Zach Randolph and Kosta Koufos helped the Kings win games last season: "I'm not saying those guys won't play but our bigger priority is to play as many young guys as possible."

https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/1044376268592967680

Good news for us.
Probably not.  I'd expect Bagley, at a minimum, to far out perform Randolph.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles and Labissierre also are just better than him.  Randolph has been deteriorating pretty quickly.  I frankly see that quote as Joerger trying to save some face for Randolph.

You might be right. There's definitely potential for the Kings to be better than people expect.

That said, most young guys, especially big men, aren't prepared to help their team win games. They may produce, and they may even show big-time potential, but most of the time, win totals don't go up until closer to their second contract.
Sure, but Randolph didn't actually help them win any games last year.  He had by far the worst on/off differential on the Kings last year at -7.6.  Koufos was also negative at -1.5.  Labissierre for comparison was a +3.9 and WCS was -0.9 (so at least better than Kosta and Zach). 

The simple reality is, Randolph is shot and Koufos just isn't any good.  Bagley, Giles, Labissierre, and of course WCS are going to be the main rotation because quite frankly they are going to be their 4 best big men (I'm counting Bjelica as a wing - see below). 

The Kings problem is going to be the wing.  They have only 2 wings on the roster, Justin Jackson and Jamel Artis.  That is their real problem as they are going to have to play Bjelica on the wing.  They really don't have any choice unless they play an undersized guard like Hield or McLemore their. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they kicked the tires on Butler since they don't own their pick anyway.  I don't think they'd give up a premier young player for him, but they could absolutely absorb Dieng as well.  Obviously that depends on what Minnesota's market actually is.  But that would instantly make the Kings interesting (so say they give up salary filler, WCS and Skal for Butler and Dieng).  I don't know if a lineup of Fox, Hield, Butler, Bagley, Dieng with Giles, Ferrell, Bjelica, and Jackson makes the playoffs in the West, but it would at least make for some excitement in Sacramento for the season and if Butler leaves, oh well.
Butler would hate being on the Kings with all those young players.  Why would Minny want WCS and Skal?  They need a PG or wing.
Yeah, really unsure why Sacramento would even try. Unless they offer Fox and maybe Hield, they are definitely not getting Butler

Don't forget that the Kings are really, really, stupid. Derailing a rebuild in the name of "creating excitement" is exactly what idiotic organizations do.
I'm not really sure the trade I proposed derails a rebuild since the Kings don't own their pick this year anyway.  And having a guy like Butler might actually help their young guards develop.
Edit: Slamtheking beat me to the punch for most of this  :P


Except Butler doesn't have a great track record of working with young guys. Really the opposite. IMO he would quickly get frustrated and become toxic. Then he leaves in the offseason for nothing.

And even if he stays he is likely washed up before the young guys are good enough to contend. There are cheaper, "good locker room guy" vets out there that can provide arguably far more stability at no cost of picks or young talent.
Butler got along fine with the young guys in Chicago, it was the old vets (Rose, Noah, Wade, and Rondo) that were coasting and not putting in the work that angered Butler and caused a lot of the tension he had there.

I don't think you have that quite right. Rondo and Butler were definitely on opposite sides. But so were Rondo and Wade. Rondo was also definitely on the side of the young guys (they've even vouched for him since his time in chicago). So I'm pretty sure Butler, Wade and the old guys were against the young guys and Rondo.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/01/young-bulls-rave-about-rajon-rondo-as-a-teammate/

Butler was against the young guys including Mirotic (then 24) Grant (then 23) and Rondo stood up for them. Butler has had issues with young players in both his stops now.

Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #241 on: September 25, 2018, 01:03:00 PM »

Offline CF033

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The question is whether Butler can exist on ANY team and not find stuff to get irritated about over time. It's doubtful that any team is going to fit exactly what he wants from top to bottom.

It's like someone who keeps jumping from job to job, gets excited about each new job but is disgruntled with it after a few months.

Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #242 on: September 25, 2018, 01:39:17 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Dave Joerger, speaking on how Zach Randolph and Kosta Koufos helped the Kings win games last season: "I'm not saying those guys won't play but our bigger priority is to play as many young guys as possible."

https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/1044376268592967680

Good news for us.
Probably not.  I'd expect Bagley, at a minimum, to far out perform Randolph.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles and Labissierre also are just better than him.  Randolph has been deteriorating pretty quickly.  I frankly see that quote as Joerger trying to save some face for Randolph.

You might be right. There's definitely potential for the Kings to be better than people expect.

That said, most young guys, especially big men, aren't prepared to help their team win games. They may produce, and they may even show big-time potential, but most of the time, win totals don't go up until closer to their second contract.
Sure, but Randolph didn't actually help them win any games last year.  He had by far the worst on/off differential on the Kings last year at -7.6.  Koufos was also negative at -1.5.  Labissierre for comparison was a +3.9 and WCS was -0.9 (so at least better than Kosta and Zach). 

The simple reality is, Randolph is shot and Koufos just isn't any good.  Bagley, Giles, Labissierre, and of course WCS are going to be the main rotation because quite frankly they are going to be their 4 best big men (I'm counting Bjelica as a wing - see below). 

The Kings problem is going to be the wing.  They have only 2 wings on the roster, Justin Jackson and Jamel Artis.  That is their real problem as they are going to have to play Bjelica on the wing.  They really don't have any choice unless they play an undersized guard like Hield or McLemore their. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they kicked the tires on Butler since they don't own their pick anyway.  I don't think they'd give up a premier young player for him, but they could absolutely absorb Dieng as well.  Obviously that depends on what Minnesota's market actually is.  But that would instantly make the Kings interesting (so say they give up salary filler, WCS and Skal for Butler and Dieng).  I don't know if a lineup of Fox, Hield, Butler, Bagley, Dieng with Giles, Ferrell, Bjelica, and Jackson makes the playoffs in the West, but it would at least make for some excitement in Sacramento for the season and if Butler leaves, oh well.

Butler would probably just pout if he was going to get traded there and would not offer to resign. This isn't a situation like Leonard in Toronto where they have a chance of making the finals and selling him on the city. That Sac town team at best would be like the 11th best team in the conference. One of the least likely place for him to end up outside of Boston.

Well, this got doused pretty quick. Kings interested as a facilitator to take on bad salary, strongly implying not interest as a destination for Butler.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/251215/Kings-Interested-In-Facilitating-Three-Way-Jimmy-Butler-Trade

Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #243 on: September 25, 2018, 01:43:46 PM »

Offline GreenShooter

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I don't know who ever thought this was a reality. The team stated they are going to play young guys. Why would they trade for Butler only to watch him leave (or not even show up) after this season. Makes zero sense imo.

Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #244 on: September 25, 2018, 01:53:56 PM »

Online Moranis

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Dave Joerger, speaking on how Zach Randolph and Kosta Koufos helped the Kings win games last season: "I'm not saying those guys won't play but our bigger priority is to play as many young guys as possible."

https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/1044376268592967680

Good news for us.
Probably not.  I'd expect Bagley, at a minimum, to far out perform Randolph.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles and Labissierre also are just better than him.  Randolph has been deteriorating pretty quickly.  I frankly see that quote as Joerger trying to save some face for Randolph.

You might be right. There's definitely potential for the Kings to be better than people expect.

That said, most young guys, especially big men, aren't prepared to help their team win games. They may produce, and they may even show big-time potential, but most of the time, win totals don't go up until closer to their second contract.
Sure, but Randolph didn't actually help them win any games last year.  He had by far the worst on/off differential on the Kings last year at -7.6.  Koufos was also negative at -1.5.  Labissierre for comparison was a +3.9 and WCS was -0.9 (so at least better than Kosta and Zach). 

The simple reality is, Randolph is shot and Koufos just isn't any good.  Bagley, Giles, Labissierre, and of course WCS are going to be the main rotation because quite frankly they are going to be their 4 best big men (I'm counting Bjelica as a wing - see below). 

The Kings problem is going to be the wing.  They have only 2 wings on the roster, Justin Jackson and Jamel Artis.  That is their real problem as they are going to have to play Bjelica on the wing.  They really don't have any choice unless they play an undersized guard like Hield or McLemore their. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they kicked the tires on Butler since they don't own their pick anyway.  I don't think they'd give up a premier young player for him, but they could absolutely absorb Dieng as well.  Obviously that depends on what Minnesota's market actually is.  But that would instantly make the Kings interesting (so say they give up salary filler, WCS and Skal for Butler and Dieng).  I don't know if a lineup of Fox, Hield, Butler, Bagley, Dieng with Giles, Ferrell, Bjelica, and Jackson makes the playoffs in the West, but it would at least make for some excitement in Sacramento for the season and if Butler leaves, oh well.
Butler would hate being on the Kings with all those young players.  Why would Minny want WCS and Skal?  They need a PG or wing.
Yeah, really unsure why Sacramento would even try. Unless they offer Fox and maybe Hield, they are definitely not getting Butler

Don't forget that the Kings are really, really, stupid. Derailing a rebuild in the name of "creating excitement" is exactly what idiotic organizations do.
I'm not really sure the trade I proposed derails a rebuild since the Kings don't own their pick this year anyway.  And having a guy like Butler might actually help their young guards develop.
Edit: Slamtheking beat me to the punch for most of this  :P


Except Butler doesn't have a great track record of working with young guys. Really the opposite. IMO he would quickly get frustrated and become toxic. Then he leaves in the offseason for nothing.

And even if he stays he is likely washed up before the young guys are good enough to contend. There are cheaper, "good locker room guy" vets out there that can provide arguably far more stability at no cost of picks or young talent.
Butler got along fine with the young guys in Chicago, it was the old vets (Rose, Noah, Wade, and Rondo) that were coasting and not putting in the work that angered Butler and caused a lot of the tension he had there.

I don't think you have that quite right. Rondo and Butler were definitely on opposite sides. But so were Rondo and Wade. Rondo was also definitely on the side of the young guys (they've even vouched for him since his time in chicago). So I'm pretty sure Butler, Wade and the old guys were against the young guys and Rondo.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/01/young-bulls-rave-about-rajon-rondo-as-a-teammate/

Butler was against the young guys including Mirotic (then 24) Grant (then 23) and Rondo stood up for them. Butler has had issues with young players in both his stops now.
It was MCW not Grant (the same MCW that can't stay on a team and the same Mirotic that got sucker-punched at practice and then was the player shipped away).  And again it is all about effort with Butler.  He will clash with players that don't provide maximum effort.  Whether they are young or old doesn't matter. 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that is a good character trait, especially from someone that is supposed to be your leader, but it is a character trait that many great players have had.  Jordan, for example, was notoriously hard on teammates that didn't give it their all.  That is what has made Butler so great, but it is also what has caused tension in several different locker-rooms.  Maybe he will always be a problem.  Maybe he will soften up a bit.  Maybe he will find a team that has players that work as hard as him.  Who knows. 
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Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #245 on: September 25, 2018, 01:55:38 PM »

Online Moranis

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Dave Joerger, speaking on how Zach Randolph and Kosta Koufos helped the Kings win games last season: "I'm not saying those guys won't play but our bigger priority is to play as many young guys as possible."

https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/1044376268592967680

Good news for us.
Probably not.  I'd expect Bagley, at a minimum, to far out perform Randolph.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles and Labissierre also are just better than him.  Randolph has been deteriorating pretty quickly.  I frankly see that quote as Joerger trying to save some face for Randolph.

You might be right. There's definitely potential for the Kings to be better than people expect.

That said, most young guys, especially big men, aren't prepared to help their team win games. They may produce, and they may even show big-time potential, but most of the time, win totals don't go up until closer to their second contract.
Sure, but Randolph didn't actually help them win any games last year.  He had by far the worst on/off differential on the Kings last year at -7.6.  Koufos was also negative at -1.5.  Labissierre for comparison was a +3.9 and WCS was -0.9 (so at least better than Kosta and Zach). 

The simple reality is, Randolph is shot and Koufos just isn't any good.  Bagley, Giles, Labissierre, and of course WCS are going to be the main rotation because quite frankly they are going to be their 4 best big men (I'm counting Bjelica as a wing - see below). 

The Kings problem is going to be the wing.  They have only 2 wings on the roster, Justin Jackson and Jamel Artis.  That is their real problem as they are going to have to play Bjelica on the wing.  They really don't have any choice unless they play an undersized guard like Hield or McLemore their. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they kicked the tires on Butler since they don't own their pick anyway.  I don't think they'd give up a premier young player for him, but they could absolutely absorb Dieng as well.  Obviously that depends on what Minnesota's market actually is.  But that would instantly make the Kings interesting (so say they give up salary filler, WCS and Skal for Butler and Dieng).  I don't know if a lineup of Fox, Hield, Butler, Bagley, Dieng with Giles, Ferrell, Bjelica, and Jackson makes the playoffs in the West, but it would at least make for some excitement in Sacramento for the season and if Butler leaves, oh well.

Butler would probably just pout if he was going to get traded there and would not offer to resign. This isn't a situation like Leonard in Toronto where they have a chance of making the finals and selling him on the city. That Sac town team at best would be like the 11th best team in the conference. One of the least likely place for him to end up outside of Boston.

Well, this got doused pretty quick. Kings interested as a facilitator to take on bad salary, strongly implying not interest as a destination for Butler.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/251215/Kings-Interested-In-Facilitating-Three-Way-Jimmy-Butler-Trade
I posted about that already in this thread.
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Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #246 on: September 25, 2018, 02:43:36 PM »

Offline rondofan1255

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Kings interested as a facilitator to take on bad salary, strongly implying not interest as a destination for Butler.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/251215/Kings-Interested-In-Facilitating-Three-Way-Jimmy-Butler-Trade

Nice, TP. Pasted from your link.

Quote
The Sacramento Kings are interested in helping to facilitate a Jimmy Butler trade.

The Minnesota Timberwolves and whichever team agrees to trade for him will possibly need a third team to take on salary. The Wolves are intent on trading Gorgui Dieng, who has three years and $48 million left on his contract.

The Kings are the only team in the NBA who can absorb the $11 million into cap space while they also possess several expiring contracts such as Zach Randolph, Iman Shumpert and Kosta Koufos.

The Kings are without their first round pick in 2019.

Assistant GM Brandon Williams has informed teams that the Kings aren't adverse to parking contracts that extend into the 2019-20 season.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/251215/Kings-Interested-In-Facilitating-Three-Way-Jimmy-Butler-Trade

Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #247 on: September 25, 2018, 03:45:00 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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Dave Joerger, speaking on how Zach Randolph and Kosta Koufos helped the Kings win games last season: "I'm not saying those guys won't play but our bigger priority is to play as many young guys as possible."

https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/1044376268592967680

Good news for us.
Probably not.  I'd expect Bagley, at a minimum, to far out perform Randolph.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles and Labissierre also are just better than him.  Randolph has been deteriorating pretty quickly.  I frankly see that quote as Joerger trying to save some face for Randolph.

You might be right. There's definitely potential for the Kings to be better than people expect.

That said, most young guys, especially big men, aren't prepared to help their team win games. They may produce, and they may even show big-time potential, but most of the time, win totals don't go up until closer to their second contract.
Sure, but Randolph didn't actually help them win any games last year.  He had by far the worst on/off differential on the Kings last year at -7.6.  Koufos was also negative at -1.5.  Labissierre for comparison was a +3.9 and WCS was -0.9 (so at least better than Kosta and Zach). 

The simple reality is, Randolph is shot and Koufos just isn't any good.  Bagley, Giles, Labissierre, and of course WCS are going to be the main rotation because quite frankly they are going to be their 4 best big men (I'm counting Bjelica as a wing - see below). 

The Kings problem is going to be the wing.  They have only 2 wings on the roster, Justin Jackson and Jamel Artis.  That is their real problem as they are going to have to play Bjelica on the wing.  They really don't have any choice unless they play an undersized guard like Hield or McLemore their. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they kicked the tires on Butler since they don't own their pick anyway.  I don't think they'd give up a premier young player for him, but they could absolutely absorb Dieng as well.  Obviously that depends on what Minnesota's market actually is.  But that would instantly make the Kings interesting (so say they give up salary filler, WCS and Skal for Butler and Dieng).  I don't know if a lineup of Fox, Hield, Butler, Bagley, Dieng with Giles, Ferrell, Bjelica, and Jackson makes the playoffs in the West, but it would at least make for some excitement in Sacramento for the season and if Butler leaves, oh well.
Butler would hate being on the Kings with all those young players.  Why would Minny want WCS and Skal?  They need a PG or wing.
Yeah, really unsure why Sacramento would even try. Unless they offer Fox and maybe Hield, they are definitely not getting Butler

Don't forget that the Kings are really, really, stupid. Derailing a rebuild in the name of "creating excitement" is exactly what idiotic organizations do.
I'm not really sure the trade I proposed derails a rebuild since the Kings don't own their pick this year anyway.  And having a guy like Butler might actually help their young guards develop.
Edit: Slamtheking beat me to the punch for most of this  :P


Except Butler doesn't have a great track record of working with young guys. Really the opposite. IMO he would quickly get frustrated and become toxic. Then he leaves in the offseason for nothing.

And even if he stays he is likely washed up before the young guys are good enough to contend. There are cheaper, "good locker room guy" vets out there that can provide arguably far more stability at no cost of picks or young talent.
Butler got along fine with the young guys in Chicago, it was the old vets (Rose, Noah, Wade, and Rondo) that were coasting and not putting in the work that angered Butler and caused a lot of the tension he had there.

I don't think you have that quite right. Rondo and Butler were definitely on opposite sides. But so were Rondo and Wade. Rondo was also definitely on the side of the young guys (they've even vouched for him since his time in chicago). So I'm pretty sure Butler, Wade and the old guys were against the young guys and Rondo.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/01/young-bulls-rave-about-rajon-rondo-as-a-teammate/

Butler was against the young guys including Mirotic (then 24) Grant (then 23) and Rondo stood up for them. Butler has had issues with young players in both his stops now.
It was MCW not Grant (the same MCW that can't stay on a team and the same Mirotic that got sucker-punched at practice and then was the player shipped away).  And again it is all about effort with Butler.  He will clash with players that don't provide maximum effort.  Whether they are young or old doesn't matter. 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that is a good character trait, especially from someone that is supposed to be your leader, but it is a character trait that many great players have had.  Jordan, for example, was notoriously hard on teammates that didn't give it their all.  That is what has made Butler so great, but it is also what has caused tension in several different locker-rooms.  Maybe he will always be a problem.  Maybe he will soften up a bit.  Maybe he will find a team that has players that work as hard as him.  Who knows.

I sympathize with him to a degree, it is hard working with people who are unmotivated.

And KAT and Wiggins IMO don't give max effort for sure. But there are also ways to lead, to inspire. Some guys squeeze extra effort out of the stiffs they play with. So far Butler seems like he clashes.

Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #248 on: September 25, 2018, 04:23:48 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Think Butler would be more interested in Sacramento if they offered to let him be the designated cherry-picker in their revolutionary 4-man defensive scheme?

Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #249 on: September 26, 2018, 11:34:45 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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Dave Joerger, speaking on how Zach Randolph and Kosta Koufos helped the Kings win games last season: "I'm not saying those guys won't play but our bigger priority is to play as many young guys as possible."

https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/1044376268592967680

Good news for us.
Probably not.  I'd expect Bagley, at a minimum, to far out perform Randolph.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles and Labissierre also are just better than him.  Randolph has been deteriorating pretty quickly.  I frankly see that quote as Joerger trying to save some face for Randolph.

You might be right. There's definitely potential for the Kings to be better than people expect.

That said, most young guys, especially big men, aren't prepared to help their team win games. They may produce, and they may even show big-time potential, but most of the time, win totals don't go up until closer to their second contract.
Sure, but Randolph didn't actually help them win any games last year.  He had by far the worst on/off differential on the Kings last year at -7.6.  Koufos was also negative at -1.5.  Labissierre for comparison was a +3.9 and WCS was -0.9 (so at least better than Kosta and Zach). 

The simple reality is, Randolph is shot and Koufos just isn't any good.  Bagley, Giles, Labissierre, and of course WCS are going to be the main rotation because quite frankly they are going to be their 4 best big men (I'm counting Bjelica as a wing - see below). 

The Kings problem is going to be the wing.  They have only 2 wings on the roster, Justin Jackson and Jamel Artis.  That is their real problem as they are going to have to play Bjelica on the wing.  They really don't have any choice unless they play an undersized guard like Hield or McLemore their. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they kicked the tires on Butler since they don't own their pick anyway.  I don't think they'd give up a premier young player for him, but they could absolutely absorb Dieng as well.  Obviously that depends on what Minnesota's market actually is.  But that would instantly make the Kings interesting (so say they give up salary filler, WCS and Skal for Butler and Dieng).  I don't know if a lineup of Fox, Hield, Butler, Bagley, Dieng with Giles, Ferrell, Bjelica, and Jackson makes the playoffs in the West, but it would at least make for some excitement in Sacramento for the season and if Butler leaves, oh well.
Butler would hate being on the Kings with all those young players.  Why would Minny want WCS and Skal?  They need a PG or wing.
Yeah, really unsure why Sacramento would even try. Unless they offer Fox and maybe Hield, they are definitely not getting Butler

Don't forget that the Kings are really, really, stupid. Derailing a rebuild in the name of "creating excitement" is exactly what idiotic organizations do.
I'm not really sure the trade I proposed derails a rebuild since the Kings don't own their pick this year anyway.  And having a guy like Butler might actually help their young guards develop.
Edit: Slamtheking beat me to the punch for most of this  :P


Except Butler doesn't have a great track record of working with young guys. Really the opposite. IMO he would quickly get frustrated and become toxic. Then he leaves in the offseason for nothing.

And even if he stays he is likely washed up before the young guys are good enough to contend. There are cheaper, "good locker room guy" vets out there that can provide arguably far more stability at no cost of picks or young talent.
Butler got along fine with the young guys in Chicago, it was the old vets (Rose, Noah, Wade, and Rondo) that were coasting and not putting in the work that angered Butler and caused a lot of the tension he had there.

I don't think you have that quite right. Rondo and Butler were definitely on opposite sides. But so were Rondo and Wade. Rondo was also definitely on the side of the young guys (they've even vouched for him since his time in chicago). So I'm pretty sure Butler, Wade and the old guys were against the young guys and Rondo.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/01/young-bulls-rave-about-rajon-rondo-as-a-teammate/

Butler was against the young guys including Mirotic (then 24) Grant (then 23) and Rondo stood up for them. Butler has had issues with young players in both his stops now.
It was MCW not Grant (the same MCW that can't stay on a team and the same Mirotic that got sucker-punched at practice and then was the player shipped away).  And again it is all about effort with Butler.  He will clash with players that don't provide maximum effort.  Whether they are young or old doesn't matter. 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that is a good character trait, especially from someone that is supposed to be your leader, but it is a character trait that many great players have had.  Jordan, for example, was notoriously hard on teammates that didn't give it their all.  That is what has made Butler so great, but it is also what has caused tension in several different locker-rooms.  Maybe he will always be a problem.  Maybe he will soften up a bit.  Maybe he will find a team that has players that work as hard as him.  Who knows.

From what Rondo said, it's not true. He said the young guys put in work, and its the leadership that's the problem.

Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #250 on: September 27, 2018, 06:33:29 AM »

Online Moranis

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Quote
Dave Joerger, speaking on how Zach Randolph and Kosta Koufos helped the Kings win games last season: "I'm not saying those guys won't play but our bigger priority is to play as many young guys as possible."

https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/1044376268592967680

Good news for us.
Probably not.  I'd expect Bagley, at a minimum, to far out perform Randolph.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles and Labissierre also are just better than him.  Randolph has been deteriorating pretty quickly.  I frankly see that quote as Joerger trying to save some face for Randolph.

You might be right. There's definitely potential for the Kings to be better than people expect.

That said, most young guys, especially big men, aren't prepared to help their team win games. They may produce, and they may even show big-time potential, but most of the time, win totals don't go up until closer to their second contract.
Sure, but Randolph didn't actually help them win any games last year.  He had by far the worst on/off differential on the Kings last year at -7.6.  Koufos was also negative at -1.5.  Labissierre for comparison was a +3.9 and WCS was -0.9 (so at least better than Kosta and Zach). 

The simple reality is, Randolph is shot and Koufos just isn't any good.  Bagley, Giles, Labissierre, and of course WCS are going to be the main rotation because quite frankly they are going to be their 4 best big men (I'm counting Bjelica as a wing - see below). 

The Kings problem is going to be the wing.  They have only 2 wings on the roster, Justin Jackson and Jamel Artis.  That is their real problem as they are going to have to play Bjelica on the wing.  They really don't have any choice unless they play an undersized guard like Hield or McLemore their. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they kicked the tires on Butler since they don't own their pick anyway.  I don't think they'd give up a premier young player for him, but they could absolutely absorb Dieng as well.  Obviously that depends on what Minnesota's market actually is.  But that would instantly make the Kings interesting (so say they give up salary filler, WCS and Skal for Butler and Dieng).  I don't know if a lineup of Fox, Hield, Butler, Bagley, Dieng with Giles, Ferrell, Bjelica, and Jackson makes the playoffs in the West, but it would at least make for some excitement in Sacramento for the season and if Butler leaves, oh well.
Butler would hate being on the Kings with all those young players.  Why would Minny want WCS and Skal?  They need a PG or wing.
Yeah, really unsure why Sacramento would even try. Unless they offer Fox and maybe Hield, they are definitely not getting Butler

Don't forget that the Kings are really, really, stupid. Derailing a rebuild in the name of "creating excitement" is exactly what idiotic organizations do.
I'm not really sure the trade I proposed derails a rebuild since the Kings don't own their pick this year anyway.  And having a guy like Butler might actually help their young guards develop.
Edit: Slamtheking beat me to the punch for most of this  :P


Except Butler doesn't have a great track record of working with young guys. Really the opposite. IMO he would quickly get frustrated and become toxic. Then he leaves in the offseason for nothing.

And even if he stays he is likely washed up before the young guys are good enough to contend. There are cheaper, "good locker room guy" vets out there that can provide arguably far more stability at no cost of picks or young talent.
Butler got along fine with the young guys in Chicago, it was the old vets (Rose, Noah, Wade, and Rondo) that were coasting and not putting in the work that angered Butler and caused a lot of the tension he had there.

I don't think you have that quite right. Rondo and Butler were definitely on opposite sides. But so were Rondo and Wade. Rondo was also definitely on the side of the young guys (they've even vouched for him since his time in chicago). So I'm pretty sure Butler, Wade and the old guys were against the young guys and Rondo.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/01/young-bulls-rave-about-rajon-rondo-as-a-teammate/

Butler was against the young guys including Mirotic (then 24) Grant (then 23) and Rondo stood up for them. Butler has had issues with young players in both his stops now.
It was MCW not Grant (the same MCW that can't stay on a team and the same Mirotic that got sucker-punched at practice and then was the player shipped away).  And again it is all about effort with Butler.  He will clash with players that don't provide maximum effort.  Whether they are young or old doesn't matter. 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that is a good character trait, especially from someone that is supposed to be your leader, but it is a character trait that many great players have had.  Jordan, for example, was notoriously hard on teammates that didn't give it their all.  That is what has made Butler so great, but it is also what has caused tension in several different locker-rooms.  Maybe he will always be a problem.  Maybe he will soften up a bit.  Maybe he will find a team that has players that work as hard as him.  Who knows.

From what Rondo said, it's not true. He said the young guys put in work, and its the leadership that's the problem.
and yet, MCW can't hold a job despite winning ROY and Mirotic got shipped out after HE was sucker punched.  That seems very strange if Butler was the problem and not those two.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

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Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #251 on: September 27, 2018, 06:53:41 AM »

Offline JBcat

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Quote
Dave Joerger, speaking on how Zach Randolph and Kosta Koufos helped the Kings win games last season: "I'm not saying those guys won't play but our bigger priority is to play as many young guys as possible."

https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/1044376268592967680

Good news for us.
Probably not.  I'd expect Bagley, at a minimum, to far out perform Randolph.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles and Labissierre also are just better than him.  Randolph has been deteriorating pretty quickly.  I frankly see that quote as Joerger trying to save some face for Randolph.

You might be right. There's definitely potential for the Kings to be better than people expect.

That said, most young guys, especially big men, aren't prepared to help their team win games. They may produce, and they may even show big-time potential, but most of the time, win totals don't go up until closer to their second contract.
Sure, but Randolph didn't actually help them win any games last year.  He had by far the worst on/off differential on the Kings last year at -7.6.  Koufos was also negative at -1.5.  Labissierre for comparison was a +3.9 and WCS was -0.9 (so at least better than Kosta and Zach). 

The simple reality is, Randolph is shot and Koufos just isn't any good.  Bagley, Giles, Labissierre, and of course WCS are going to be the main rotation because quite frankly they are going to be their 4 best big men (I'm counting Bjelica as a wing - see below). 

The Kings problem is going to be the wing.  They have only 2 wings on the roster, Justin Jackson and Jamel Artis.  That is their real problem as they are going to have to play Bjelica on the wing.  They really don't have any choice unless they play an undersized guard like Hield or McLemore their. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they kicked the tires on Butler since they don't own their pick anyway.  I don't think they'd give up a premier young player for him, but they could absolutely absorb Dieng as well.  Obviously that depends on what Minnesota's market actually is.  But that would instantly make the Kings interesting (so say they give up salary filler, WCS and Skal for Butler and Dieng).  I don't know if a lineup of Fox, Hield, Butler, Bagley, Dieng with Giles, Ferrell, Bjelica, and Jackson makes the playoffs in the West, but it would at least make for some excitement in Sacramento for the season and if Butler leaves, oh well.
Butler would hate being on the Kings with all those young players.  Why would Minny want WCS and Skal?  They need a PG or wing.
Yeah, really unsure why Sacramento would even try. Unless they offer Fox and maybe Hield, they are definitely not getting Butler

Don't forget that the Kings are really, really, stupid. Derailing a rebuild in the name of "creating excitement" is exactly what idiotic organizations do.
I'm not really sure the trade I proposed derails a rebuild since the Kings don't own their pick this year anyway.  And having a guy like Butler might actually help their young guards develop.
Edit: Slamtheking beat me to the punch for most of this  :P


Except Butler doesn't have a great track record of working with young guys. Really the opposite. IMO he would quickly get frustrated and become toxic. Then he leaves in the offseason for nothing.

And even if he stays he is likely washed up before the young guys are good enough to contend. There are cheaper, "good locker room guy" vets out there that can provide arguably far more stability at no cost of picks or young talent.
Butler got along fine with the young guys in Chicago, it was the old vets (Rose, Noah, Wade, and Rondo) that were coasting and not putting in the work that angered Butler and caused a lot of the tension he had there.

I don't think you have that quite right. Rondo and Butler were definitely on opposite sides. But so were Rondo and Wade. Rondo was also definitely on the side of the young guys (they've even vouched for him since his time in chicago). So I'm pretty sure Butler, Wade and the old guys were against the young guys and Rondo.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/01/young-bulls-rave-about-rajon-rondo-as-a-teammate/

Butler was against the young guys including Mirotic (then 24) Grant (then 23) and Rondo stood up for them. Butler has had issues with young players in both his stops now.
It was MCW not Grant (the same MCW that can't stay on a team and the same Mirotic that got sucker-punched at practice and then was the player shipped away).  And again it is all about effort with Butler.  He will clash with players that don't provide maximum effort.  Whether they are young or old doesn't matter. 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that is a good character trait, especially from someone that is supposed to be your leader, but it is a character trait that many great players have had.  Jordan, for example, was notoriously hard on teammates that didn't give it their all.  That is what has made Butler so great, but it is also what has caused tension in several different locker-rooms.  Maybe he will always be a problem.  Maybe he will soften up a bit.  Maybe he will find a team that has players that work as hard as him.  Who knows.

From what Rondo said, it's not true. He said the young guys put in work, and its the leadership that's the problem.
and yet, MCW can't hold a job despite winning ROY and Mirotic got shipped out after HE was sucker punched.  That seems very strange if Butler was the problem and not those two.

When Mirotic came back from injury the Bulls actually starting playing much better, and he was the one that requested a trade not that the Bulls were actively trying to trade him.

Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #252 on: September 27, 2018, 07:15:27 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Quote
Dave Joerger, speaking on how Zach Randolph and Kosta Koufos helped the Kings win games last season: "I'm not saying those guys won't play but our bigger priority is to play as many young guys as possible."

https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/1044376268592967680

Good news for us.
Probably not.  I'd expect Bagley, at a minimum, to far out perform Randolph.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles and Labissierre also are just better than him.  Randolph has been deteriorating pretty quickly.  I frankly see that quote as Joerger trying to save some face for Randolph.

You might be right. There's definitely potential for the Kings to be better than people expect.

That said, most young guys, especially big men, aren't prepared to help their team win games. They may produce, and they may even show big-time potential, but most of the time, win totals don't go up until closer to their second contract.
Sure, but Randolph didn't actually help them win any games last year.  He had by far the worst on/off differential on the Kings last year at -7.6.  Koufos was also negative at -1.5.  Labissierre for comparison was a +3.9 and WCS was -0.9 (so at least better than Kosta and Zach). 

The simple reality is, Randolph is shot and Koufos just isn't any good.  Bagley, Giles, Labissierre, and of course WCS are going to be the main rotation because quite frankly they are going to be their 4 best big men (I'm counting Bjelica as a wing - see below). 

The Kings problem is going to be the wing.  They have only 2 wings on the roster, Justin Jackson and Jamel Artis.  That is their real problem as they are going to have to play Bjelica on the wing.  They really don't have any choice unless they play an undersized guard like Hield or McLemore their. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they kicked the tires on Butler since they don't own their pick anyway.  I don't think they'd give up a premier young player for him, but they could absolutely absorb Dieng as well.  Obviously that depends on what Minnesota's market actually is.  But that would instantly make the Kings interesting (so say they give up salary filler, WCS and Skal for Butler and Dieng).  I don't know if a lineup of Fox, Hield, Butler, Bagley, Dieng with Giles, Ferrell, Bjelica, and Jackson makes the playoffs in the West, but it would at least make for some excitement in Sacramento for the season and if Butler leaves, oh well.
Butler would hate being on the Kings with all those young players.  Why would Minny want WCS and Skal?  They need a PG or wing.
Yeah, really unsure why Sacramento would even try. Unless they offer Fox and maybe Hield, they are definitely not getting Butler

Don't forget that the Kings are really, really, stupid. Derailing a rebuild in the name of "creating excitement" is exactly what idiotic organizations do.
I'm not really sure the trade I proposed derails a rebuild since the Kings don't own their pick this year anyway.  And having a guy like Butler might actually help their young guards develop.
Edit: Slamtheking beat me to the punch for most of this  :P


Except Butler doesn't have a great track record of working with young guys. Really the opposite. IMO he would quickly get frustrated and become toxic. Then he leaves in the offseason for nothing.

And even if he stays he is likely washed up before the young guys are good enough to contend. There are cheaper, "good locker room guy" vets out there that can provide arguably far more stability at no cost of picks or young talent.
Butler got along fine with the young guys in Chicago, it was the old vets (Rose, Noah, Wade, and Rondo) that were coasting and not putting in the work that angered Butler and caused a lot of the tension he had there.

I don't think you have that quite right. Rondo and Butler were definitely on opposite sides. But so were Rondo and Wade. Rondo was also definitely on the side of the young guys (they've even vouched for him since his time in chicago). So I'm pretty sure Butler, Wade and the old guys were against the young guys and Rondo.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/01/young-bulls-rave-about-rajon-rondo-as-a-teammate/

Butler was against the young guys including Mirotic (then 24) Grant (then 23) and Rondo stood up for them. Butler has had issues with young players in both his stops now.
It was MCW not Grant (the same MCW that can't stay on a team and the same Mirotic that got sucker-punched at practice and then was the player shipped away).  And again it is all about effort with Butler.  He will clash with players that don't provide maximum effort.  Whether they are young or old doesn't matter. 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that is a good character trait, especially from someone that is supposed to be your leader, but it is a character trait that many great players have had.  Jordan, for example, was notoriously hard on teammates that didn't give it their all.  That is what has made Butler so great, but it is also what has caused tension in several different locker-rooms.  Maybe he will always be a problem.  Maybe he will soften up a bit.  Maybe he will find a team that has players that work as hard as him.  Who knows.

From what Rondo said, it's not true. He said the young guys put in work, and its the leadership that's the problem.
and yet, MCW can't hold a job despite winning ROY and Mirotic got shipped out after HE was sucker punched.  That seems very strange if Butler was the problem and not those two.

When Mirotic came back from injury the Bulls actually starting playing much better, and he was the one that requested a trade not that the Bulls were actively trying to trade him.
Yeah, plus Mirotic helping them win probably didn’t make Chicago want any part of him
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PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
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Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #253 on: September 27, 2018, 08:14:08 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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Quote
Dave Joerger, speaking on how Zach Randolph and Kosta Koufos helped the Kings win games last season: "I'm not saying those guys won't play but our bigger priority is to play as many young guys as possible."

https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/1044376268592967680

Good news for us.
Probably not.  I'd expect Bagley, at a minimum, to far out perform Randolph.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles and Labissierre also are just better than him.  Randolph has been deteriorating pretty quickly.  I frankly see that quote as Joerger trying to save some face for Randolph.

You might be right. There's definitely potential for the Kings to be better than people expect.

That said, most young guys, especially big men, aren't prepared to help their team win games. They may produce, and they may even show big-time potential, but most of the time, win totals don't go up until closer to their second contract.
Sure, but Randolph didn't actually help them win any games last year.  He had by far the worst on/off differential on the Kings last year at -7.6.  Koufos was also negative at -1.5.  Labissierre for comparison was a +3.9 and WCS was -0.9 (so at least better than Kosta and Zach). 

The simple reality is, Randolph is shot and Koufos just isn't any good.  Bagley, Giles, Labissierre, and of course WCS are going to be the main rotation because quite frankly they are going to be their 4 best big men (I'm counting Bjelica as a wing - see below). 

The Kings problem is going to be the wing.  They have only 2 wings on the roster, Justin Jackson and Jamel Artis.  That is their real problem as they are going to have to play Bjelica on the wing.  They really don't have any choice unless they play an undersized guard like Hield or McLemore their. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they kicked the tires on Butler since they don't own their pick anyway.  I don't think they'd give up a premier young player for him, but they could absolutely absorb Dieng as well.  Obviously that depends on what Minnesota's market actually is.  But that would instantly make the Kings interesting (so say they give up salary filler, WCS and Skal for Butler and Dieng).  I don't know if a lineup of Fox, Hield, Butler, Bagley, Dieng with Giles, Ferrell, Bjelica, and Jackson makes the playoffs in the West, but it would at least make for some excitement in Sacramento for the season and if Butler leaves, oh well.
Butler would hate being on the Kings with all those young players.  Why would Minny want WCS and Skal?  They need a PG or wing.
Yeah, really unsure why Sacramento would even try. Unless they offer Fox and maybe Hield, they are definitely not getting Butler

Don't forget that the Kings are really, really, stupid. Derailing a rebuild in the name of "creating excitement" is exactly what idiotic organizations do.
I'm not really sure the trade I proposed derails a rebuild since the Kings don't own their pick this year anyway.  And having a guy like Butler might actually help their young guards develop.
Edit: Slamtheking beat me to the punch for most of this  :P


Except Butler doesn't have a great track record of working with young guys. Really the opposite. IMO he would quickly get frustrated and become toxic. Then he leaves in the offseason for nothing.

And even if he stays he is likely washed up before the young guys are good enough to contend. There are cheaper, "good locker room guy" vets out there that can provide arguably far more stability at no cost of picks or young talent.
Butler got along fine with the young guys in Chicago, it was the old vets (Rose, Noah, Wade, and Rondo) that were coasting and not putting in the work that angered Butler and caused a lot of the tension he had there.

I don't think you have that quite right. Rondo and Butler were definitely on opposite sides. But so were Rondo and Wade. Rondo was also definitely on the side of the young guys (they've even vouched for him since his time in chicago). So I'm pretty sure Butler, Wade and the old guys were against the young guys and Rondo.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/01/young-bulls-rave-about-rajon-rondo-as-a-teammate/

Butler was against the young guys including Mirotic (then 24) Grant (then 23) and Rondo stood up for them. Butler has had issues with young players in both his stops now.
It was MCW not Grant (the same MCW that can't stay on a team and the same Mirotic that got sucker-punched at practice and then was the player shipped away).  And again it is all about effort with Butler.  He will clash with players that don't provide maximum effort.  Whether they are young or old doesn't matter. 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that is a good character trait, especially from someone that is supposed to be your leader, but it is a character trait that many great players have had.  Jordan, for example, was notoriously hard on teammates that didn't give it their all.  That is what has made Butler so great, but it is also what has caused tension in several different locker-rooms.  Maybe he will always be a problem.  Maybe he will soften up a bit.  Maybe he will find a team that has players that work as hard as him.  Who knows.

From what Rondo said, it's not true. He said the young guys put in work, and its the leadership that's the problem.
and yet, MCW can't hold a job despite winning ROY and Mirotic got shipped out after HE was sucker punched.  That seems very strange if Butler was the problem and not those two.

MCW is just not that good. Not every bad player has an work/attitude problem.

Re: Sacramento Kings 2018-19 Season Watch Thread
« Reply #254 on: September 27, 2018, 08:20:03 AM »

Online Moranis

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Quote
Dave Joerger, speaking on how Zach Randolph and Kosta Koufos helped the Kings win games last season: "I'm not saying those guys won't play but our bigger priority is to play as many young guys as possible."

https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/1044376268592967680

Good news for us.
Probably not.  I'd expect Bagley, at a minimum, to far out perform Randolph.  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles and Labissierre also are just better than him.  Randolph has been deteriorating pretty quickly.  I frankly see that quote as Joerger trying to save some face for Randolph.

You might be right. There's definitely potential for the Kings to be better than people expect.

That said, most young guys, especially big men, aren't prepared to help their team win games. They may produce, and they may even show big-time potential, but most of the time, win totals don't go up until closer to their second contract.
Sure, but Randolph didn't actually help them win any games last year.  He had by far the worst on/off differential on the Kings last year at -7.6.  Koufos was also negative at -1.5.  Labissierre for comparison was a +3.9 and WCS was -0.9 (so at least better than Kosta and Zach). 

The simple reality is, Randolph is shot and Koufos just isn't any good.  Bagley, Giles, Labissierre, and of course WCS are going to be the main rotation because quite frankly they are going to be their 4 best big men (I'm counting Bjelica as a wing - see below). 

The Kings problem is going to be the wing.  They have only 2 wings on the roster, Justin Jackson and Jamel Artis.  That is their real problem as they are going to have to play Bjelica on the wing.  They really don't have any choice unless they play an undersized guard like Hield or McLemore their. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they kicked the tires on Butler since they don't own their pick anyway.  I don't think they'd give up a premier young player for him, but they could absolutely absorb Dieng as well.  Obviously that depends on what Minnesota's market actually is.  But that would instantly make the Kings interesting (so say they give up salary filler, WCS and Skal for Butler and Dieng).  I don't know if a lineup of Fox, Hield, Butler, Bagley, Dieng with Giles, Ferrell, Bjelica, and Jackson makes the playoffs in the West, but it would at least make for some excitement in Sacramento for the season and if Butler leaves, oh well.
Butler would hate being on the Kings with all those young players.  Why would Minny want WCS and Skal?  They need a PG or wing.
Yeah, really unsure why Sacramento would even try. Unless they offer Fox and maybe Hield, they are definitely not getting Butler

Don't forget that the Kings are really, really, stupid. Derailing a rebuild in the name of "creating excitement" is exactly what idiotic organizations do.
I'm not really sure the trade I proposed derails a rebuild since the Kings don't own their pick this year anyway.  And having a guy like Butler might actually help their young guards develop.
Edit: Slamtheking beat me to the punch for most of this  :P


Except Butler doesn't have a great track record of working with young guys. Really the opposite. IMO he would quickly get frustrated and become toxic. Then he leaves in the offseason for nothing.

And even if he stays he is likely washed up before the young guys are good enough to contend. There are cheaper, "good locker room guy" vets out there that can provide arguably far more stability at no cost of picks or young talent.
Butler got along fine with the young guys in Chicago, it was the old vets (Rose, Noah, Wade, and Rondo) that were coasting and not putting in the work that angered Butler and caused a lot of the tension he had there.

I don't think you have that quite right. Rondo and Butler were definitely on opposite sides. But so were Rondo and Wade. Rondo was also definitely on the side of the young guys (they've even vouched for him since his time in chicago). So I'm pretty sure Butler, Wade and the old guys were against the young guys and Rondo.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/01/young-bulls-rave-about-rajon-rondo-as-a-teammate/

Butler was against the young guys including Mirotic (then 24) Grant (then 23) and Rondo stood up for them. Butler has had issues with young players in both his stops now.
It was MCW not Grant (the same MCW that can't stay on a team and the same Mirotic that got sucker-punched at practice and then was the player shipped away).  And again it is all about effort with Butler.  He will clash with players that don't provide maximum effort.  Whether they are young or old doesn't matter. 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that is a good character trait, especially from someone that is supposed to be your leader, but it is a character trait that many great players have had.  Jordan, for example, was notoriously hard on teammates that didn't give it their all.  That is what has made Butler so great, but it is also what has caused tension in several different locker-rooms.  Maybe he will always be a problem.  Maybe he will soften up a bit.  Maybe he will find a team that has players that work as hard as him.  Who knows.

From what Rondo said, it's not true. He said the young guys put in work, and its the leadership that's the problem.
and yet, MCW can't hold a job despite winning ROY and Mirotic got shipped out after HE was sucker punched.  That seems very strange if Butler was the problem and not those two.

When Mirotic came back from injury the Bulls actually starting playing much better, and he was the one that requested a trade not that the Bulls were actively trying to trade him.
Because the Bulls wouldn't move Portis.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip