Have you bought into Lebron HypeMachine???

[Witch-King]

By the way Kobe is still better than LeBron. In both of their matchups this season Kobe scored way more points than LeBron did. Now I know that might not seem like much but to make a comparison Shaquille O'neal scored 29 points and had 24 boards in his first game ever against Michael Jordan's Bulls. The Magic won that game in overtime because of a late turnover by one of Jordan's teammates, however Michael scored 64 points in that game.

Now, looking back on that game after Jordan's career  who is considered the better player?? Kobe is a better player than LeBron; he has accomplished more during his career than LeBron has and has played with better players than LeBron has.

Wait, so:

- Michael Jordan outscored Shaq in a game.
- Micheal Jordan is considered a greater player than Shaq.
- Kobe outscored LeBron twice this year, therefore:
- Kobe is a better player than LeBron.

If this is your reasoning, did you know that Todd Day once outscored Kevin Garnett 41-17?  With a margin like that, Todd must've been a much better player.  And don't even get me started on Wilt vs Russell - Russell almost never outscored Wilt at all!  In fact, Russell was never one of the top scorers in the league.  He must be really overrated.

If you actually read and understood what I wrote then you'd realize that the points scored were just an aside - the main point is that Kobe has accomplished more in his career than LeBron has, end of argument. Kobe has won League MVP before, Kobe has won a scoring title, Kobe has won a finals MVP whereas LeBron still hasn't won a game in the NBA finals yet, 4 rings, the list goes on and on...

[Roy Hobbs]

By the way Kobe is still better than LeBron. In both of their matchups this season Kobe scored way more points than LeBron did. Now I know that might not seem like much but to make a comparison Shaquille O'neal scored 29 points and had 24 boards in his first game ever against Michael Jordan's Bulls. The Magic won that game in overtime because of a late turnover by one of Jordan's teammates, however Michael scored 64 points in that game.

Now, looking back on that game after Jordan's career  who is considered the better player?? Kobe is a better player than LeBron; he has accomplished more during his career than LeBron has and has played with better players than LeBron has.

Historically, it's fair to argue Kobe is better; four championships versus zero says a lot, even if three of Kobe's were from playing second fiddle to Shaq.

However, in terms of judging the current player, why ignore statistics and wins, and focus only on head-to-head?  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

Also, of course, you're wrong in your facts.  The last time the two met, Lebron outscored Kobe 37 to 31, and had more rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks than Kobe, and shot a higher percentage both from the field and from the line.  The game before that, Kobe did outscore Lebron, but only shot 33% from the field.  The Cavs won both games.

In 13 head-to-head matchups all-time, Lebron holds an 8-5 edge in wins, and leads Kobe in points per game, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, FG%, and 3PT%.  Kobe has fewer turnovers, and a better FT%.

Link.

[pearljammer10]

Ok i think i can dig the LeBron 93 Vedder vs Durant 2010 Vedder... Im game with that. And I can dig your humor green. I'll give you a TP for a few reasons 1) Eddie Vedder analogy 2)attempting humor 3) hating creed!

[MMacOH]

By the way Kobe is still better than LeBron. In both of their matchups this season Kobe scored way more points than LeBron did. Now I know that might not seem like much but to make a comparison Shaquille O'neal scored 29 points and had 24 boards in his first game ever against Michael Jordan's Bulls. The Magic won that game in overtime because of a late turnover by one of Jordan's teammates, however Michael scored 64 points in that game.

Now, looking back on that game after Jordan's career  who is considered the better player?? Kobe is a better player than LeBron; he has accomplished more during his career than LeBron has and has played with better players than LeBron has.

Wait, so:

- Michael Jordan outscored Shaq in a game.
- Micheal Jordan is considered a greater player than Shaq.
- Kobe outscored LeBron twice this year, therefore:
- Kobe is a better player than LeBron.

If this is your reasoning, did you know that Todd Day once outscored Kevin Garnett 41-17?  With a margin like that, Todd must've been a much better player.  And don't even get me started on Wilt vs Russell - Russell almost never outscored Wilt at all!  In fact, Russell was never one of the top scorers in the league.  He must be really overrated.

If you actually read and understood what I wrote then you'd realize that the points scored were just an aside - the main point is that Kobe has accomplished more in his career than LeBron has, end of argument. Kobe has won League MVP before, Kobe has won a scoring title, Kobe has won a finals MVP whereas LeBron still hasn't won a game in the NBA finals yet, 4 rings, the list goes on and on...

I just re-read your post and still can't figure out what points scored in a game has to do with anything.  Mentioning he scored more points in the games is so incredibly short sighted and not even true.  

Lets look at those games this year:  Game 1, Kobe needs 33 shots to score 35 points, Lebron takes 19 shots and scores 26 points.  Clear win for Kobe.  Shooting 33% from the field always helps your team.  

Game 2:  Kobe takes 31 shots to score 31 points.  Lebron takes 25 shots to score 37 points.   Another win for Kobe!!!

[housecall]

Lebron is the best player in the game.

He has become just about impossible to guard with his combination of size, speed, shooting (an improving aspect) and vision to hit the open man with a pass. 


And once he decided to play defense, he has become probably the best defensive SF in the NBA, because of his size and speed.


Lebron is ether bigger then his man or faster then his man or (most likely) bigger and faster then his man.



Kobe is still number 2. 


Wade, Melo and Durrant are the next class below.  Durrant has the best chance of jumping up if he ever decided to play defense.

If most games were called on a even playing field(correctly)Lebron wouldn't be as productive offensively...in the 70's,80's Lebron wouldn't be close to the success he's had so far today.I feel he is in a era of players with less talented players,and defense is not top priority to most teams.I think Melo,Durant,Wade,Pierce and a few others would be more successful than James in a different era of players because of  their natural ability without aid from bias officiating.
  

You put a guy with the physical attributes and talent of Lebron back in the 70s and 80s and you're still gonna have a helluva basketball players.  Bias officiating or not, he's going to be pretty dominating. 

I think teams would slap him around more and he might second guess driving the lane as much but I'd assume he'd find a way to compensate for that. 

I agree with you that Lebron would be a helluva basketball player regardless of the era but just not to the degree of what he is today...i feel he possibly would make the allstar team most yrs,but wouldn't be the #1 guy in the NBA repeatedly or given the "hype"the thread is talking about.The officiating is a lot different from before(70's&80's).Today if a player breathe hard on James the whistle goes off,unlike in the past eras.So wouldn't you say some of his success is due to bias officaiting making it seems like he is a better player than he really is?

[Witch-King]

Lol, we all know that Kobe jacks up plenty of shots to get into the 30, 40+ points range I mean, how could he not feel pressured to score the way Jordan did if Phil Jackson is his current coach and he has to be the primary scorer for that team since Shaq has left the franchise? May I also mention that Jordan's archetype of player has already been thoruoghly scrutinized even while he was still playing to the point that teams would come up with different methods of trying to defend him (either double-teaming, hacking, etc.) so Kobe Bryant, another SG who models his game after MJ and is 6'6" the same height MJ was (also the same weight) and plays for Phil Jackson people would already have at least some idea of how to guard Kobe after watching Jordan before him. I hope that makes sense...

[housecall]

Lebron is the best player in the game.

He has become just about impossible to guard with his combination of size, speed, shooting (an improving aspect) and vision to hit the open man with a pass. 


And once he decided to play defense, he has become probably the best defensive SF in the NBA, because of his size and speed.


Lebron is ether bigger then his man or faster then his man or (most likely) bigger and faster then his man.



Kobe is still number 2. 


Wade, Melo and Durrant are the next class below.  Durrant has the best chance of jumping up if he ever decided to play defense.

If most games were called on a even playing field(correctly)Lebron wouldn't be as productive offensively...in the 70's,80's Lebron wouldn't be close to the success he's had so far today.I feel he is in a era of players with less talented players,and defense is not top priority to most teams.I think Melo,Durant,Wade,Pierce and a few others would be more successful than James in a different era of players because of  their natural ability without aid from bias officiating.
  

So your saying an era where Lebron will be even bigger and faster by comparision to other SFs and he is allowed to be more physical on defense is a bad thing for him?


He (much like the scorers of that era) would be able to adjust to the more physical play.  He has more then enough size to deal with that. 

He would still be bigger.  He would still be faster.  And he would still have the improving shot and good vision. 


It is a guy like Wade that would have problems.  He would have been injured even more. 

Im saying he wouldn't be coming thru the paint as often,and as successful...he would have developed an outside game quicker than he did in this era.I have heard retired players like Mahorn,Pippens,Lambeire on different NBA talk shows make reference to if Lebron was playing in their day,with quotes like he would be fresh meat(laughing).There were more physical players per team in those days to either shut him down or make him think twice about coming thru the paint.

Is it that he is much better than other players or is some of his success from the way the game is being called these days?...todays officiating has some to do with his success.

I still feel Melo would win 6 out 10 games head to head aganist Lebron and Melo is a better NBA player than James.

[Change]

Lebron is ShaQ at the SF Position, basically A BULLY! Take the athleticism away, then the real Lebron will come out. No post game, Not a threat for the 3point line, no in between game, Average handles, and has the ugliest fade-away shot known to man. He can imitate the other great, but fails every time sorta like his airball from the FT line.

[housecall]

Lebron is ShaQ at the SF Position, basically A BULLY! Take the athleticism away, then the real Lebron will come out. No post game, Not a threat for the 3point line, no in between game, Average handles, and has the ugliest fade-away shot. He can immate the other great, but fails every time sorta like his airball from the FT line.

Agree 100%...you said it all here,Good post,TP

[Roy Hobbs]

Lebron is ShaQ at the SF Position, basically A BULLY! Take the athleticism away, then the real Lebron will come out. No post game, Not a threat for the 3point line, no in between game, Average handles, and has the ugliest fade-away shot. He can immate the other great, but fails every time sorta like his airball from the FT line.

This post just makes no sense to me.

First, you can't separate a player from his athleticism.  That would be like saying "if Larry Bird lacked a great jump shot and court shot, he'd have been an average player".  Well, maybe, but how can you just randomly choose to ignore part of the package?

Second, what do you mean Lebron lacks a three point game?  He hits more threes than Durant, at almost the same percentage.  His overall eFG% on jump shots is virtually the same as Durant's, too.  If he was only an average ball-handler, there would be no way he's converting over 70% of his inside shots, while getting to the line a ton.

I just think you're massively underrating Lebron, mostly due to negative bias against him.

[fairweatherfan]

By the way Kobe is still better than LeBron. In both of their matchups this season Kobe scored way more points than LeBron did. Now I know that might not seem like much but to make a comparison Shaquille O'neal scored 29 points and had 24 boards in his first game ever against Michael Jordan's Bulls. The Magic won that game in overtime because of a late turnover by one of Jordan's teammates, however Michael scored 64 points in that game.

Now, looking back on that game after Jordan's career  who is considered the better player?? Kobe is a better player than LeBron; he has accomplished more during his career than LeBron has and has played with better players than LeBron has.

Wait, so:

- Michael Jordan outscored Shaq in a game.
- Micheal Jordan is considered a greater player than Shaq.
- Kobe outscored LeBron twice this year, therefore:
- Kobe is a better player than LeBron.

If this is your reasoning, did you know that Todd Day once outscored Kevin Garnett 41-17?  With a margin like that, Todd must've been a much better player.  And don't even get me started on Wilt vs Russell - Russell almost never outscored Wilt at all!  In fact, Russell was never one of the top scorers in the league.  He must be really overrated.

If you actually read and understood what I wrote then you'd realize that the points scored were just an aside - the main point is that Kobe has accomplished more in his career than LeBron has, end of argument. Kobe has won League MVP before, Kobe has won a scoring title, Kobe has won a finals MVP whereas LeBron still hasn't won a game in the NBA finals yet, 4 rings, the list goes on and on...

What I wrote in those bullet points was the entirety of your argument in the first post.  Don't blame me for summing up what you actually said. 

The points you're making now are all legit, but they're also all related to Kobe having a better career than LeBron so far, which I don't think anyone would argue.  But the question isn't if Kobe's accomplished more in his career, it's if he's a better player right now.  The only evidence you've given for that is that Kobe outscored him twice this year, which as I pointed out isn't the best metric.

[Mr October]

Lebron is the best player in the NBA. The guy is such a fast / strong / physical beast - mixed in with a decent outside shot, excellent handle and passing. The guy is a team carrier.

What would the Cavs be without him?

Is he the best all time? Heck no! Gotta win a few rings first.

[Change]

Lebron is ShaQ at the SF Position, basically A BULLY! Take the athleticism away, then the real Lebron will come out. No post game, Not a threat for the 3point line, no in between game, Average handles, and has the ugliest fade-away shot. He can immate the other great, but fails every time sorta like his airball from the FT line.

This post just makes no sense to me.

First, you can't separate a player from his athleticism.  That would be like saying "if Larry Bird lacked a great jump shot and court shot, he'd have been an average player".  Well, maybe, but how can you just randomly choose to ignore part of the package?

Second, what do you mean Lebron lacks a three point game?  He hits more threes than Durant, at almost the same percentage.  His overall eFG% on jump shots is virtually the same as Durant's, too.  If he was only an average ball-handler, there would be no way he's converting over 70% of his inside shots, while getting to the line a ton.

I just think you're massively underrating Lebron, mostly due to negative bias against him.

Negative Bias? More so I respect other guys game more. Pierce, Durant, Roy, Nash, CP3, Carmelo......... I'm impartial enough to recognize Kobe's greatness, that was painful to say.

[nickagneta]

I hate LeBron.

I hate the unnecessary hype.

He's the best player on the planet and it isn't even close anymore.

It really is that simple.

[wdleehi]

Lebron is the best player in the game.

He has become just about impossible to guard with his combination of size, speed, shooting (an improving aspect) and vision to hit the open man with a pass. 


And once he decided to play defense, he has become probably the best defensive SF in the NBA, because of his size and speed.


Lebron is ether bigger then his man or faster then his man or (most likely) bigger and faster then his man.



Kobe is still number 2. 


Wade, Melo and Durrant are the next class below.  Durrant has the best chance of jumping up if he ever decided to play defense.

If most games were called on a even playing field(correctly)Lebron wouldn't be as productive offensively...in the 70's,80's Lebron wouldn't be close to the success he's had so far today.I feel he is in a era of players with less talented players,and defense is not top priority to most teams.I think Melo,Durant,Wade,Pierce and a few others would be more successful than James in a different era of players because of  their natural ability without aid from bias officiating.
  

So your saying an era where Lebron will be even bigger and faster by comparision to other SFs and he is allowed to be more physical on defense is a bad thing for him?


He (much like the scorers of that era) would be able to adjust to the more physical play.  He has more then enough size to deal with that. 

He would still be bigger.  He would still be faster.  And he would still have the improving shot and good vision. 


It is a guy like Wade that would have problems.  He would have been injured even more. 

Im saying he wouldn't be coming thru the paint as often,and as successful...he would have developed an outside game quicker than he did in this era.I have heard retired players like Mahorn,Pippens,Lambeire on different NBA talk shows make reference to if Lebron was playing in their day,with quotes like he would be fresh meat(laughing).There were more physical players per team in those days to either shut him down or make him think twice about coming thru the paint.

Is it that he is much better than other players or is some of his success from the way the game is being called these days?...todays officiating has some to do with his success.

I still feel Melo would win 6 out 10 games head to head aganist Lebron and Melo is a better NBA player than James.

Why would Lebron stop attacking the basket?  He is still physically bigger then the man defending him.  Heck, he is probably bigger and stronger then some of the PF back then. 

And in a deeper NBA, he would have better talent around him making it harder to double him all the time, especially with his talent to see and pass the ball. 

And by what measure do you use to say Melo is better?

James has better numbers
James plays better defense.
James has been further in the playoff and has had his team being a true contender for a longer time.