Author Topic: 2020 Red Sox Thread  (Read 82591 times)

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Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #330 on: January 15, 2020, 11:52:20 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Manfred had to strip the Astros title and if the Sox did similar things, needs to strip that one as well.  You can't have teams sitting there with a title that was earned in a season that they knowingly and blatantly cheated especially in the post season.  Just not a good look.

Also, not a great look dropping the penalty the morning of the College Football National Championship game.  Trying to bury the story never goes well.

Do we strip the titles of all teams with players who used steroids?


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Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #331 on: January 15, 2020, 12:16:52 PM »

Online Moranis

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Manfred had to strip the Astros title and if the Sox did similar things, needs to strip that one as well.  You can't have teams sitting there with a title that was earned in a season that they knowingly and blatantly cheated especially in the post season.  Just not a good look.

Also, not a great look dropping the penalty the morning of the College Football National Championship game.  Trying to bury the story never goes well.

Do we strip the titles of all teams with players who used steroids?
No.  Not anywhere near the same thing.
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Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #332 on: January 15, 2020, 12:33:26 PM »

Online Donoghus

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Manfred had to strip the Astros title and if the Sox did similar things, needs to strip that one as well.  You can't have teams sitting there with a title that was earned in a season that they knowingly and blatantly cheated especially in the post season.  Just not a good look.

Also, not a great look dropping the penalty the morning of the College Football National Championship game.  Trying to bury the story never goes well.

Do we strip the titles of all teams with players who used steroids?
No.  Not anywhere near the same thing.

'89 A's win the World Series without steroids?


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Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #333 on: January 15, 2020, 12:56:25 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Does "stripping" a title really matter?

What matters to fans, it seems to me, is the experience of the team making the title run, and then the memories / highlights you can return to for years afterward.

You can never take that away, and I think most people will still think of the players as champions even if it's "tainted."


Perhaps at the end of the day the title holds less significance than a title that isn't "tainted," but it's still far better than not having a title at all.


This isn't an argument for cheating, exactly, but I do think it's silly to act as though a team winning a championship is basically nullified or undone if cheating is discovered after the fact.  There's nothing the league can really do to accomplish that.

The people involved probably largely feel it was worth it, even though it's been discovered now and they've lost their jobs.

It's not like the Dodgers suddenly get a title credited to them.  Kershaw still carries the stain of playoff failure.
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Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #334 on: January 15, 2020, 01:00:00 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Manfred had to strip the Astros title and if the Sox did similar things, needs to strip that one as well.  You can't have teams sitting there with a title that was earned in a season that they knowingly and blatantly cheated especially in the post season.  Just not a good look.

Also, not a great look dropping the penalty the morning of the College Football National Championship game.  Trying to bury the story never goes well.

Do we strip the titles of all teams with players who used steroids?
No.  Not anywhere near the same thing.

Why does only some cheating invalidate winning?

The Sox went 51-30 on the road, and 7-1 on the road in the post-season.  They scored 56 runs on the road in the post-season, while scoring 28 runs at home.

The team stole signs, but they performed better without doing it and killed everyone they played in the playoffs.





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Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #335 on: January 15, 2020, 01:11:15 PM »

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Does "stripping" a title really matter?


Not really.  What happened, happened.

It really only matters in barroom & internet chat room debates.


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Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #336 on: January 15, 2020, 01:14:17 PM »

Online Moranis

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Manfred had to strip the Astros title and if the Sox did similar things, needs to strip that one as well.  You can't have teams sitting there with a title that was earned in a season that they knowingly and blatantly cheated especially in the post season.  Just not a good look.

Also, not a great look dropping the penalty the morning of the College Football National Championship game.  Trying to bury the story never goes well.

Do we strip the titles of all teams with players who used steroids?
No.  Not anywhere near the same thing.

'89 A's win the World Series without steroids?
Steroids weren't actually banned in 1989 by the MLB.  They didn't hit the banned substance list until 1991, but weren't actually tested until 2003 and weren't actually a suspendable offense until 2005 after the 2003 and 2004 testing showed greater than a certain level of players were using them.  So even assuming that the A's were the only team using steroids in 1989 (which is an absolutely ridiculous assumption), the answer to your question is who cares, they weren't banned.
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Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #337 on: January 15, 2020, 01:15:19 PM »

Online Moranis

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Manfred had to strip the Astros title and if the Sox did similar things, needs to strip that one as well.  You can't have teams sitting there with a title that was earned in a season that they knowingly and blatantly cheated especially in the post season.  Just not a good look.

Also, not a great look dropping the penalty the morning of the College Football National Championship game.  Trying to bury the story never goes well.

Do we strip the titles of all teams with players who used steroids?
No.  Not anywhere near the same thing.

Why does only some cheating invalidate winning?

The Sox went 51-30 on the road, and 7-1 on the road in the post-season.  They scored 56 runs on the road in the post-season, while scoring 28 runs at home.

The team stole signs, but they performed better without doing it and killed everyone they played in the playoffs.
why do some people get put to death for crimes they commit while others only pay fines? 
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Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #338 on: January 15, 2020, 01:20:48 PM »

Offline BringToughnessBack

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The difference between Astros and all other teams is that they got caught. From what I hear, stealing signs has been going on since the very beginning. I am not condoning this but it is apparently a reality.  I actually think Steroids are just as bad. No doubt that steroid induced A’s team of the 80’s and 90s impacted Sox from getting to the series and breaking the curse earlier . My friends son plays minor league ball and says off the books sign stealing is happening everywhere. They are always looking in at catcher trying to figure out what is coming next. I am not foolish enough to believe the Astros and Sox were the only one’s who did this at some point in a season.

If they want to stop sign stealing, instead of banning technology, they should embrace it. Give the  catcher an arm device and pitcher as well...send signs that way..no more stealing signs. Catcher wants fastball, presses 1 on his device, pitcher sees on his arm device and that is that. Cant steal what you cant see.


Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #339 on: January 15, 2020, 01:24:26 PM »

Online Donoghus

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Manfred had to strip the Astros title and if the Sox did similar things, needs to strip that one as well.  You can't have teams sitting there with a title that was earned in a season that they knowingly and blatantly cheated especially in the post season.  Just not a good look.

Also, not a great look dropping the penalty the morning of the College Football National Championship game.  Trying to bury the story never goes well.

Do we strip the titles of all teams with players who used steroids?
No.  Not anywhere near the same thing.

'89 A's win the World Series without steroids?
Steroids weren't actually banned in 1989 by the MLB.  They didn't hit the banned substance list until 1991, but weren't actually tested until 2003 and weren't actually a suspendable offense until 2005 after the 2003 and 2004 testing showed greater than a certain level of players were using them.  So even assuming that the A's were the only team using steroids in 1989 (which is an absolutely ridiculous assumption), the answer to your question is who cares, they weren't banned.

That's wonderful.  Now do the '09 Yankees.

Kidding aside, the larger point of the matter is the absolute silliness of trying to "strip" team titles after the fact by coming up with some arbitrary line of what constitutes serious enough cheating to strip.

Punish the team in the present.  "Stripping" titles doesn't do anything.  Is the team going to have to give back all the "economic benefit" they received from the title run?  Are we going to have to retroactively remember what happened in a different way?  Of course not, its a absolute joke.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 01:37:41 PM by Donoghus »


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Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #340 on: January 15, 2020, 01:28:26 PM »

Offline dannyboy35

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 I hate steroids. I‘TD not realistic I know but I’d be behind stripping every title in every sport if guys were using roids. Celtics included.
  But the worst part about steroids to me is people like “ The Rock” and others boasting about how hard they work when the build they are attaining is not possible without drug abuse. Frauds. Clowns.

Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #341 on: January 15, 2020, 02:11:07 PM »

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Manfred had to strip the Astros title and if the Sox did similar things, needs to strip that one as well.  You can't have teams sitting there with a title that was earned in a season that they knowingly and blatantly cheated especially in the post season.  Just not a good look.

Also, not a great look dropping the penalty the morning of the College Football National Championship game.  Trying to bury the story never goes well.

Do we strip the titles of all teams with players who used steroids?
No.  Not anywhere near the same thing.

'89 A's win the World Series without steroids?
Steroids weren't actually banned in 1989 by the MLB.  They didn't hit the banned substance list until 1991, but weren't actually tested until 2003 and weren't actually a suspendable offense until 2005 after the 2003 and 2004 testing showed greater than a certain level of players were using them.  So even assuming that the A's were the only team using steroids in 1989 (which is an absolutely ridiculous assumption), the answer to your question is who cares, they weren't banned.

That's wonderful.  Now do the '09 Yankees.

Kidding aside, the larger point of the matter is the absolute silliness of trying to "strip" team titles after the fact by coming up with some arbitrary line of what constitutes serious enough cheating to strip.

Punish the team in the present.  "Stripping" titles doesn't do anything.  Is the team going to have to give back all the "economic benefit" they received from the title run?  Are we going to have to retroactively remember what happened in a different way?  Of course not, its a absolute joke.
MLB though this was a serious enough offense to suspend the GM and Manager for a year, strip 1st and 2nd round draft picks in consecutive years, and fine them 5 million dollars.  That isn't just a slap on the wrist.  It isn't the death penalty, but it is serious.  They should have stripped the title as well.  Still happened, but no banners, can't refer to themselves as champs, etc.  They didn't suspend the players involved at all, which to me says because it was team sponsored it was thought of as a much bigger deal.  If a team was running a team sponsored steroid program, I'd put that on a similar level, though I do think that "cheating" is less because I do think it has much less correlation to actual on field results.  I guarantee you that a player would get far more benefit out of knowing what pitch was coming then taking steroids.  And to be clear I'm not suggesting that steroids don't help, they do, but their help is much more off the field than on (in both recovery and strength training).  Now that gets a player on the field faster, longer, and with more power, but they still have to put in the work.  Knowing what pitch is coming has way more on field benefit than being a bit stronger/faster or recovering from an injury quicker.

And why keep mentioning teams like the A's or Yankees and not the Red Sox.  I mean David Ortiz tested positive in 2003.  Why not rule out every Red Sox championship team he was on?  Or are those exceptions because it was Boston?  So between Ortiz (and I'm sure others on those teams) and Cora's sign stealing, Boston still hasn't won a WS title since 1918 by those requirements.

As with all things the level and degree matter.  I just don't see steroids as anywhere near the same level of benefit as illegal sign stealing.  You can feel free to disagree, I just don't think they are similar at all. 
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Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #342 on: January 15, 2020, 02:11:56 PM »

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Manfred had to strip the Astros title and if the Sox did similar things, needs to strip that one as well.  You can't have teams sitting there with a title that was earned in a season that they knowingly and blatantly cheated especially in the post season.  Just not a good look.

Also, not a great look dropping the penalty the morning of the College Football National Championship game.  Trying to bury the story never goes well.

Do we strip the titles of all teams with players who used steroids?

Also, there are apparently open investigations on something like 8 more teams for doing this over the last few years. Imagine stripping the Astro's of the title then finding out the Dodgers were also using a camera for signs at various points that season. It definitely has more in common with steroids where some players were using it/trying it and others were not. Some people had an unfair advantage and some got screwed.

Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #343 on: January 15, 2020, 02:14:27 PM »

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Manfred had to strip the Astros title and if the Sox did similar things, needs to strip that one as well.  You can't have teams sitting there with a title that was earned in a season that they knowingly and blatantly cheated especially in the post season.  Just not a good look.

Also, not a great look dropping the penalty the morning of the College Football National Championship game.  Trying to bury the story never goes well.

Do we strip the titles of all teams with players who used steroids?
No.  Not anywhere near the same thing.

'89 A's win the World Series without steroids?
Steroids weren't actually banned in 1989 by the MLB.  They didn't hit the banned substance list until 1991, but weren't actually tested until 2003 and weren't actually a suspendable offense until 2005 after the 2003 and 2004 testing showed greater than a certain level of players were using them.  So even assuming that the A's were the only team using steroids in 1989 (which is an absolutely ridiculous assumption), the answer to your question is who cares, they weren't banned.

That's wonderful.  Now do the '09 Yankees.

Kidding aside, the larger point of the matter is the absolute silliness of trying to "strip" team titles after the fact by coming up with some arbitrary line of what constitutes serious enough cheating to strip.

Punish the team in the present.  "Stripping" titles doesn't do anything.  Is the team going to have to give back all the "economic benefit" they received from the title run?  Are we going to have to retroactively remember what happened in a different way?  Of course not, its a absolute joke.
MLB though this was a serious enough offense to suspend the GM and Manager for a year, strip 1st and 2nd round draft picks in consecutive years, and fine them 5 million dollars.  That isn't just a slap on the wrist.  It isn't the death penalty, but it is serious.  They should have stripped the title as well.  Still happened, but no banners, can't refer to themselves as champs, etc.  They didn't suspend the players involved at all, which to me says because it was team sponsored it was thought of as a much bigger deal.  If a team was running a team sponsored steroid program, I'd put that on a similar level, though I do think that "cheating" is less because I do think it has much less correlation to actual on field results.  I guarantee you that a player would get far more benefit out of knowing what pitch was coming then taking steroids.  And to be clear I'm not suggesting that steroids don't help, they do, but their help is much more off the field than on (in both recovery and strength training).  Now that gets a player on the field faster, longer, and with more power, but they still have to put in the work.  Knowing what pitch is coming has way more on field benefit than being a bit stronger/faster or recovering from an injury quicker.

And why keep mentioning teams like the A's or Yankees and not the Red Sox.  I mean David Ortiz tested positive in 2003.  Why not rule out every Red Sox championship team he was on?  Or are those exceptions because it was Boston?  So between Ortiz (and I'm sure others on those teams) and Cora's sign stealing, Boston still hasn't won a WS title since 1918 by those requirements.

As with all things the level and degree matter.  I just don't see steroids as anywhere near the same level of benefit as illegal sign stealing.  You can feel free to disagree, I just don't think they are similar at all.

This was actually explained because the commissioner sent out a warning to all teams about this happening a few years earlier and he specifically stated that the manager and general manager would be held responsible and not the players. In addition, it was stated the players unions would fight this and the next season would begin in a sea of grievances. It has nothing to do with how big or small a deal this was viewed as. It is simply, literally what the commissioner said he would do ahead of time.

Re: 2020 Red Sox Thread
« Reply #344 on: January 15, 2020, 02:40:48 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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The Houston cheating was described as "player driven" act and yet MLB gave complete immunity to the players and only went after the coaches because they were supposed to know better and stop what was going on. In truth, many on the Houston player roster deserved to be punished as much as the team and it's managers.

My guess is it is the same across the league with player's pushing the stealing of signs, in all sorts of different manners but MLB can't put their national television contracts or exceptional attendence in major television markets at risk by also suspending players, so the players slide even though the cheating originates and is driven by the players.