Author Topic: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread  (Read 13360 times)

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Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2024, 07:00:32 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I think we are going to need some play from a big not name Horford or Porzingis. I envision 3rd big by committee.  Hopefully all of Kornet, Tillman, and Queta will have their moments. 

Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2024, 07:46:30 AM »

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Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2024, 07:59:15 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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In looking at the potential match ups in the east, several of the teams have the size that worries me:

MIL:  Giannis, Lopez (Portis)
NYK: Randle*, Robinson (Hartenstein)
CLE:  Mobley, Allen (Wade)
ORL:  Banchero, Carter (Issac)
IND:  Siakam, Turner (Smith)
PHI:  Harris, Embiid (Reed)
MIA:  Jovic, Adebayo (Love)

So "most" of those teams are going to have a size advantage over BOS.   They have an established 3 big rotation (at least) and generally play with 2 bigs on the floor most of the time.  PHI is the clear outlier, Harris is no more of a big than Tatum is.  NYK is down one with Randle hurt, but they have Achiuwa to fill in so they can play the same style, although it appears they will start Anunoby who is not a big.  That is still 5 of the 7 teams that play big, and another one that would if not for injury.  NYK clearly has a size advantage overall and is a very good offensive rebounding team (the thing that worries me the most) even without Randle.  You can quibble that Siakam is not a big, more of a swing, but I don't see that.  He is averaging 2.1 ORebs with IND (Tatum 0.9 ORebs)  He is far more PF than say Harris (1.1 ORebs).  Quantity of ORebs in of itself does not define who is a PF, but I see it as an indicator of style of play or emphasis.

This is how teams with size are going to try to beat the Celtics in the playoffs.  Teams that can out offensive rebound the Celtics will have a chance.  Teams will try to attack Porzingis and whoever ends up on the second big (that has typically been Holiday).  On the other hand, the Celtics will try to use the opponents' size against them by playing with pace, forcing switches, taking a lot of 3s.  The Celtics are still the top team.  Other teams have a size advantage in most cases but the Celtics have more scoring weapons, more athletes, more just about everything else.  But I feel that fans are ignoring something fairly obvious if you don't acknowledge that nearly every team will have a size advantage over the Celtics.
Weren't these "teams with size" trying to use their size to beat the Celts in the regular season?  How'd that go?  The Celts were 9th in DREB% so an above average defense rebounding team.  The Celts might lose a game because of offensive rebounding but they aren't going to lose a series because of it.

MIL in particular did pretty well vs. BOS in the regular season.  I am not saying that the size disadvantage will necessarily change the outcome of a playoff series, although it very well could if we see MIL along the way.  One of the comments was that BOS does not lack depth at PF/C.  We do.  It is our one weakness.  In the playoffs, games are called differently by the refs and teams are able to focus their game plans better for a specific team.  We have 2 bigs that are playoff caliber.  Most of the teams we will see have 3 or more playoff rotation bigs.  You are going to see Holiday trying to cover centers and other unfavorable match ups.  In spite of that, BOS is favored as the top seed in the East.  I just don't get why people can't acknowledge this and that we are a small team.
The Bucks are tough because Giannis is a freak who is extremely hard to guard.   Not because they have a 3rd big.  The playoffs are different.  Teams cut back to playing the best 7 or 8 best players.  A 3rd big would get little playing time. 

Some posters have been complaining about the lack of a 3rd big since before the season started.  How'd that turn out?  The Celts just had one of the best regular seasons ever.  They did so without that 3rd big.  They did so with Horford missing 17 games and playing the lowest mpg of his career. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2024, 08:11:00 AM by tazzmaniac »

Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2024, 10:38:58 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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If I were a betting man I'd put some money on Denver and Philly (I don't think they'll win but those are great odds). That way if we don't win, I'd at least get some enjoyment out of it.

I don't think anyone besides us and Denver have a real shot.
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Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2024, 10:43:49 AM »

Online Celtics2021

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In looking at the potential match ups in the east, several of the teams have the size that worries me:

MIL:  Giannis, Lopez (Portis)
NYK: Randle*, Robinson (Hartenstein)
CLE:  Mobley, Allen (Wade)
ORL:  Banchero, Carter (Issac)
IND:  Siakam, Turner (Smith)
PHI:  Harris, Embiid (Reed)
MIA:  Jovic, Adebayo (Love)

So "most" of those teams are going to have a size advantage over BOS.   They have an established 3 big rotation (at least) and generally play with 2 bigs on the floor most of the time.  PHI is the clear outlier, Harris is no more of a big than Tatum is.  NYK is down one with Randle hurt, but they have Achiuwa to fill in so they can play the same style, although it appears they will start Anunoby who is not a big.  That is still 5 of the 7 teams that play big, and another one that would if not for injury.  NYK clearly has a size advantage overall and is a very good offensive rebounding team (the thing that worries me the most) even without Randle.  You can quibble that Siakam is not a big, more of a swing, but I don't see that.  He is averaging 2.1 ORebs with IND (Tatum 0.9 ORebs)  He is far more PF than say Harris (1.1 ORebs).  Quantity of ORebs in of itself does not define who is a PF, but I see it as an indicator of style of play or emphasis.

This is how teams with size are going to try to beat the Celtics in the playoffs.  Teams that can out offensive rebound the Celtics will have a chance.  Teams will try to attack Porzingis and whoever ends up on the second big (that has typically been Holiday).  On the other hand, the Celtics will try to use the opponents' size against them by playing with pace, forcing switches, taking a lot of 3s.  The Celtics are still the top team.  Other teams have a size advantage in most cases but the Celtics have more scoring weapons, more athletes, more just about everything else.  But I feel that fans are ignoring something fairly obvious if you don't acknowledge that nearly every team will have a size advantage over the Celtics.
Weren't these "teams with size" trying to use their size to beat the Celts in the regular season?  How'd that go?  The Celts were 9th in DREB% so an above average defense rebounding team.  The Celts might lose a game because of offensive rebounding but they aren't going to lose a series because of it.

MIL in particular did pretty well vs. BOS in the regular season.  I am not saying that the size disadvantage will necessarily change the outcome of a playoff series, although it very well could if we see MIL along the way.  One of the comments was that BOS does not lack depth at PF/C.  We do.  It is our one weakness.  In the playoffs, games are called differently by the refs and teams are able to focus their game plans better for a specific team.  We have 2 bigs that are playoff caliber.  Most of the teams we will see have 3 or more playoff rotation bigs.  You are going to see Holiday trying to cover centers and other unfavorable match ups.  In spite of that, BOS is favored as the top seed in the East.  I just don't get why people can't acknowledge this and that we are a small team.
The Bucks are tough because Giannis is a freak who is extremely hard to guard.   Not because they have a 3rd big.  The playoffs are different.  Teams cut back to playing the best 7 or 8 best players.  A 3rd big would get little playing time. 

Some posters have been complaining about the lack of a 3rd big since before the season started.  How'd that turn out?  The Celts just had one of the best regular seasons ever.  They did so without that 3rd big.  They did so with Horford missing 17 games and playing the lowest mpg of his career.

And to further your point, Horford played more minutes than Porzingis.  Either we had a third big (Kornet) or we didn’t need one.  But it’s okay either way.

Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2024, 10:47:42 AM »

Offline Birdman

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When will Celtics play there first game??
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Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2024, 10:56:38 AM »

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When will Celtics play there first game??

Sunday.  Time is TBD


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Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2024, 11:00:57 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I think everyone understands that the playoffs are different than the regular season.  There are going to be a few players on every team that played and helped during the regular season that don't in the playoffs.  Refs call the games differently.  Match ups get more focus as teams play up to 7 times in a row.

I think a team's big rotation is a factor in the playoffs.  Just one of many.  In most series, the Celtics will have the best/deepest guard rotation and wing rotation, but not the best or deepest big rotation.  In the regular season, we had games where Jrue Holiday was the primary defender on Giannis and Randle for stretches.  We won't always need a third big, it depends on how much 1-big vs. 2-big we are able to play.  But I think there will be times when we need something from a third legitimate big, not just relying on Jrue Holiday to  cover a PF.

Our "third" big is going to be a combination of Kornet, Tillman, and Queta.  All of these guys did fine enough in the regular season but the playoffs are different.  I am not sure how these guys will fare in the playoffs.  It is the weakest link on a really good team.  I still feel that the Celtics can get through the east and get to the finals.  The finals are going to be tough, but the Celtics will likely be favored, if they get there.

Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2024, 11:02:44 AM »

Online celticinorlando

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I think we see an 8 man rotation for the playoffs. 9 if you add in Kornet/Tillman.

Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2024, 11:25:51 AM »

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If I were a betting man I'd put some money on Denver and Philly (I don't think they'll win but those are great odds). That way if we don't win, I'd at least get some enjoyment out of it.

I don't think anyone besides us and Denver have a real shot.
If Dallas gets by LA, I think they may be close to even money to beat Denver in the wcf.
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Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2024, 12:18:34 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I think we see an 8 man rotation for the playoffs. 9 if you add in Kornet/Tillman.

I agree with this.  I think they will stick to the top 8 as much as they can.  The bench is Horford, Pritchard, Hauser, pretty solid.  But that rotation only allows for 1 big line ups most of the time.  Horford plays about 24 min, Porzingis plays about 24 min, but never together.  They are going to need to mix in some combination of Kornet, Tillman, and Queta at times.

They can't play Tatum for 48 minutes so when he is out, we go from small to very small, if the rotation is only those 8 and you assume that they can't afford to play Horford and Porzingis together.  In the regular season, they generally played both Horford and Porzingis when Tatum was out.  But for every minute that Horford and Porzingis are on the court together, that means they have to play more than 24 min each or we have to play Kornet/Tillman/Queta.

This isn't the end of the world.  Maybe you need up to 10 min per game out of some combination of the third big committee.  The other teams will need to rest their top bigs also.  But these will be the line ups where the Celtics are the least talented overall.  Tillman has just been OK in the regular season, at best.  I wonder if what we have seen is his ceiling.

Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2024, 12:45:16 PM »

Online Celtics2021

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I think we see an 8 man rotation for the playoffs. 9 if you add in Kornet/Tillman.

I agree with this.  I think they will stick to the top 8 as much as they can.  The bench is Horford, Pritchard, Hauser, pretty solid.  But that rotation only allows for 1 big line ups most of the time.  Horford plays about 24 min, Porzingis plays about 24 min, but never together.  They are going to need to mix in some combination of Kornet, Tillman, and Queta at times.

They can't play Tatum for 48 minutes so when he is out, we go from small to very small, if the rotation is only those 8 and you assume that they can't afford to play Horford and Porzingis together. In the regular season, they generally played both Horford and Porzingis when Tatum was out.  But for every minute that Horford and Porzingis are on the court together, that means they have to play more than 24 min each or we have to play Kornet/Tillman/Queta.

This isn't the end of the world.  Maybe you need up to 10 min per game out of some combination of the third big committee.  The other teams will need to rest their top bigs also.  But these will be the line ups where the Celtics are the least talented overall.  Tillman has just been OK in the regular season, at best.  I wonder if what we have seen is his ceiling.

Why would you assume that?  Horford and KP will combine for 55-60 minutes most games, and as there 48 minutes in a game, this would cover almost all the time Tatum is on the bench.

Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2024, 12:45:23 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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I think everyone understands that the playoffs are different than the regular season.  There are going to be a few players on every team that played and helped during the regular season that don't in the playoffs.  Refs call the games differently.  Match ups get more focus as teams play up to 7 times in a row.

I think a team's big rotation is a factor in the playoffs.  Just one of many.  In most series, the Celtics will have the best/deepest guard rotation and wing rotation, but not the best or deepest big rotation.  In the regular season, we had games where Jrue Holiday was the primary defender on Giannis and Randle for stretches.  We won't always need a third big, it depends on how much 1-big vs. 2-big we are able to play.  But I think there will be times when we need something from a third legitimate big, not just relying on Jrue Holiday to  cover a PF.

Our "third" big is going to be a combination of Kornet, Tillman, and Queta.  All of these guys did fine enough in the regular season but the playoffs are different.  I am not sure how these guys will fare in the playoffs.  It is the weakest link on a really good team.  I still feel that the Celtics can get through the east and get to the finals.  The finals are going to be tough, but the Celtics will likely be favored, if they get there.

No one matches up well with Giannis and Randle is out for the rest of the year. Which other PF’s are going to be a problem for the C’s in terms of mismatches?
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Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2024, 01:02:20 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I think we see an 8 man rotation for the playoffs. 9 if you add in Kornet/Tillman.

I agree with this.  I think they will stick to the top 8 as much as they can.  The bench is Horford, Pritchard, Hauser, pretty solid.  But that rotation only allows for 1 big line ups most of the time.  Horford plays about 24 min, Porzingis plays about 24 min, but never together.  They are going to need to mix in some combination of Kornet, Tillman, and Queta at times.

They can't play Tatum for 48 minutes so when he is out, we go from small to very small, if the rotation is only those 8 and you assume that they can't afford to play Horford and Porzingis together. In the regular season, they generally played both Horford and Porzingis when Tatum was out.  But for every minute that Horford and Porzingis are on the court together, that means they have to play more than 24 min each or we have to play Kornet/Tillman/Queta.

This isn't the end of the world.  Maybe you need up to 10 min per game out of some combination of the third big committee.  The other teams will need to rest their top bigs also.  But these will be the line ups where the Celtics are the least talented overall.  Tillman has just been OK in the regular season, at best.  I wonder if what we have seen is his ceiling.

Why would you assume that?  Horford and KP will combine for 55-60 minutes most games, and as there 48 minutes in a game, this would cover almost all the time Tatum is on the bench.

I suspect that will be the plan.  Not sure it will work in every case.  I doubt that they play both Horford and Porzingis as much as 30 min each per game every game, but if they did that they could each play 18 min with Tatum as the 1 big (36 min total) and that would leave 12 min for no Tatum and have them play together.  Maybe it is more like Porzingis for 32 min and Horford for 28 min.

That is what I would do anyway as there is so much talent drop off if you play Kornet/Tillman/Queta.  Things would be so much easier though if we had a 3rd big that was actually good enough to play 8 min or so.

Re: Celtics 2024 Playoff Run Thread
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2024, 01:42:22 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I think everyone understands that the playoffs are different than the regular season.  There are going to be a few players on every team that played and helped during the regular season that don't in the playoffs.  Refs call the games differently.  Match ups get more focus as teams play up to 7 times in a row.

I think a team's big rotation is a factor in the playoffs.  Just one of many.  In most series, the Celtics will have the best/deepest guard rotation and wing rotation, but not the best or deepest big rotation.  In the regular season, we had games where Jrue Holiday was the primary defender on Giannis and Randle for stretches.  We won't always need a third big, it depends on how much 1-big vs. 2-big we are able to play.  But I think there will be times when we need something from a third legitimate big, not just relying on Jrue Holiday to  cover a PF.

Our "third" big is going to be a combination of Kornet, Tillman, and Queta.  All of these guys did fine enough in the regular season but the playoffs are different.  I am not sure how these guys will fare in the playoffs.  It is the weakest link on a really good team.  I still feel that the Celtics can get through the east and get to the finals.  The finals are going to be tough, but the Celtics will likely be favored, if they get there.

No one matches up well with Giannis and Randle is out for the rest of the year. Which other PF’s are going to be a problem for the C’s in terms of mismatches?

You are correct that PHI does not have a true PF either.  MIA, NYK, ORL are all teams that play will low pace and get their share of offensive rebounds.  The Knicks in fact lead the league in Orebs, even though they didn't have Randle for a chunk.  MIL scares me the most, but we'll see what condition Giannis is in.  CLE is another team that plays slow and has length (they just don't have wings).

We should be able to beat any of these teams based on overall talent.  With Randle out, Giannis potentially limited, and Embiid potentially not holding up, it all favors the Celtics, at least in the East.  No team is perfect.  There are more teams with more size in the West but fortunately, we only have to beat one of those teams.

What I see is that because the Celtics have less size (talented size anyway) than most teams, we have stretches were we give up offensive rebounds, and we rely more on the 3.  More 3 point shots by definition means more variability in makes, less free throws (Celtics were 26th in FTA in the regular season, 1st in 3PA).  You might make 45% one game, 35% the next, maybe even as low as 30% for a game or a half.  Bigger teams will get more 2nd chance points and more FTA.

That doesn't mean bigger is always better.  In a 7 game series, you hope the 3P% averages out.  We have more weapons than any other team.  But teams are going to be able to key in on their size advantage over the course of a series.  There are ways that the Celtics can counter that.  In general, in games that we hold about even on offensive rebounds, we tend to win (or so is my perception).  I think we will hold even or better on turnovers (we should at least).  We should be able to hit more 3s most games.