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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Moranis on August 14, 2018, 08:58:41 PM

Title: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 14, 2018, 08:58:41 PM
https://www.businessinsider.com/kyrie-irving-jimmy-butler-rumors-knicks-nets-2018-8

Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: saltlover on August 14, 2018, 09:40:15 PM
https://www.businessinsider.com/kyrie-irving-jimmy-butler-rumors-knicks-nets-2018-8

Business Insider, that hotbed of sports info...
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: gouki88 on August 14, 2018, 09:55:04 PM
https://www.businessinsider.com/kyrie-irving-jimmy-butler-rumors-knicks-nets-2018-8

Business Insider, that hotbed of sports info...
Rofl, TP.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: BlastFromThePast on August 14, 2018, 10:07:07 PM
https://www.businessinsider.com/kyrie-irving-jimmy-butler-rumors-knicks-nets-2018-8

Business Insider, that hotbed of sports info...

But, but, but...Business Insider is REAL news.  Facebook, Google, et al wouldn't lie to us that BI is trustworthy would they?   ;)
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 15, 2018, 08:19:13 AM
https://www.businessinsider.com/kyrie-irving-jimmy-butler-rumors-knicks-nets-2018-8

Business Insider, that hotbed of sports info...
sports is big business.  Now if you want to claim that the writer is a lifelong Knicks fan and thus lacks some credibility on this sort of thing, that is a different matter. 
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Surferdad on August 15, 2018, 10:19:18 AM
This is what I call "meta-news".  Take information from other news sources and create synthetic collateralized debt obligations from risky homeowners' loans.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: fairweatherfan on August 15, 2018, 10:23:18 AM
Many people are saying
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: A Future of Stevens on August 15, 2018, 10:46:32 AM
It's already been reported that ALL of the chatter is coming from Butlers side. So maybe the chatter from Butlers camp is legit.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: mef730 on August 15, 2018, 10:49:43 AM
Given the number of posts and threads that we've had on the subject, I'd say that the chatter is indeed "substantial."

Mike
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: celticsclay on August 15, 2018, 11:27:43 AM
Knicks fan writing in dog days of summer. Not much to see. If we were seeing this stuff next April I would worry
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on August 15, 2018, 11:35:38 AM
This is what I call "meta-news".  Take information from other news sources and create synthetic collateralized debt obligations from risky homeowners' loans.

Exactly. The chatter is substantial because there is a significant portion of people talking about.

Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: JHTruth on August 15, 2018, 11:39:40 AM
It's not complete insanity to think Kyrie might head to go play with Butler somewhere. They are clearly best bros and Butler has already turned down an extension with the TWolves.

I know C's fans are super defensive and protective about this but it's not like Kyrie has any ties to Boston. He's played a single season here and not even the playoffs. I guess fans just like the idea of having a "superstar" in Boston, but it's not 100% he's staying, which is fine.

C's can draft someone like Reddish to take the lead guard spot in the future and extend Scary Terry. It's not the end of the world if he leaves..
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Ed Hollison on August 15, 2018, 12:25:15 PM
Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but ESPN has a "summer forecast" piece out today that asks various analysts where Irving, Butler, and Durant will play next season. Amazingly they give a slightly higher probability that Irving is on the Knicks (46.9%) than he is on the Celtics (43.8%).

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24381454/nba-2019-free-agent-predictions-espn-summer-forecast-knicks-celtics-timberwolves

Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: PhoSita on August 15, 2018, 12:25:31 PM
https://www.businessinsider.com/kyrie-irving-jimmy-butler-rumors-knicks-nets-2018-8

Business Insider, that hotbed of sports info...
sports is big business.  Now if you want to claim that the writer is a lifelong Knicks fan and thus lacks some credibility on this sort of thing, that is a different matter.

People who write online about sports are generally huge fans of clicks, and there's no bigger online fan base than Knicks fans.  God love 'em.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: JHTruth on August 15, 2018, 12:30:27 PM
Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but ESPN has a "summer forecast" piece out today that asks various analysts where Irving, Butler, and Durant will play next season. Amazingly they give a slightly higher probability that Irving is on the Knicks (46.9%) than he is on the Celtics (43.8%).

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24381454/nba-2019-free-agent-predictions-espn-summer-forecast-knicks-celtics-timberwolves

Yeah I'd say it's 50/50 right now could change depending on several factors, if NY can get under the cap etc. If it looks like Kyrie is leaning that way at the deadline, you maybe move him for their unprotected pick and a player.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: nickagneta on August 15, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
It's not complete insanity to think Kyrie might head to go play with Butler somewhere. They are clearly best bros and Butler has already turned down an extension with the TWolves.

I know C's fans are super defensive and protective about this but it's not like Kyrie has any ties to Boston. He's played a single season here and not even the playoffs. I guess fans just like the idea of having a "superstar" in Boston, but it's not 100% he's staying, which is fine.

C's can draft someone like Reddish to take the lead guard spot in the future and extend Scary Terry. It's not the end of the world if he leaves..
Shouldn't read anything into Kyrie and Butler turning down extensions. It makes financial sense for both to go to free agency, even if they just resign with their current teams, because they will make a boatload more money on their new contracts than they would on extensions.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: JHTruth on August 15, 2018, 12:45:40 PM
It's not complete insanity to think Kyrie might head to go play with Butler somewhere. They are clearly best bros and Butler has already turned down an extension with the TWolves.

I know C's fans are super defensive and protective about this but it's not like Kyrie has any ties to Boston. He's played a single season here and not even the playoffs. I guess fans just like the idea of having a "superstar" in Boston, but it's not 100% he's staying, which is fine.

C's can draft someone like Reddish to take the lead guard spot in the future and extend Scary Terry. It's not the end of the world if he leaves..
Shouldn't read anything into Kyrie and Butler turning down extensions. It makes financial sense for both to go to free agency, even if they just resign with their current teams, because they will make a boatload more money on their new contracts than they would on extensions.

Well also with Butler he's come out with public statements about how he dislikes playing with KAT and Wiggins. I'd be stunned if he stayed with Minny.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 15, 2018, 12:50:00 PM
I think this is mostly dead time in the summer talk, but we can't forget that Minnesota was on the list of teams Irving was willing to be traded to.  That was because of Butler.  There are also pretty credible reports that before Butler was traded to Minnesota he let the Bulls know that Irving wanted out and that they should try to kick the tires with the Cavs (the Bulls probably rightly determined they didn't have the assets to acquire him so they went the rebuilding way instead). 

That said, just because they are friends doesn't mean much of anything when it comes to where somebody is going to play.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: johnnygreen on August 15, 2018, 12:56:44 PM
I always like the idea of getting Butler, until I actually see him play. He almost reminds me of LeBron light, but without the playmaking ability and the giant ego. He needs the ball for far too long to be effective, and he seems to stall the offense. I just don't think Butler and Irving are a good mix, especially with Irving finally getting back his freedom to be a point guard again. Kyrie would have to be willing to meet in the middle, where he would be splitting time as a point guard and being a spot up shooter, if he wants to play with Butler. Then again, maybe I'm way off base, especially since I don't watch Butler playing on a nightly basis. I still think Kyrie signs an extension at the end of next season, when he is eligible for a super max.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: nickagneta on August 15, 2018, 01:10:09 PM
I always like the idea of getting Butler, until I actually see him play. He almost reminds me of LeBron light, but without the playmaking ability and the giant ego. He needs the ball for far too long to be effective, and he seems to stall the offense. I just don't think Butler and Irving are a good mix, especially with Irving finally getting back his freedom to be a point guard again. Kyrie would have to be willing to meet in the middle, where he would be splitting time as a point guard and being a spot up shooter, if he wants to play with Butler. Then again, maybe I'm way off base, especially since I don't watch Butler playing on a nightly basis. I still think Kyrie signs an extension at the end of next season, when he is eligible for a super max.
Kyrie is not eligible for a supermax contract. He's not on the team that drafted him nor has he been on the All-NBA team any of the last 3 years.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: JHTruth on August 15, 2018, 01:25:30 PM
I always like the idea of getting Butler, until I actually see him play. He almost reminds me of LeBron light, but without the playmaking ability and the giant ego. He needs the ball for far too long to be effective, and he seems to stall the offense. I just don't think Butler and Irving are a good mix, especially with Irving finally getting back his freedom to be a point guard again. Kyrie would have to be willing to meet in the middle, where he would be splitting time as a point guard and being a spot up shooter, if he wants to play with Butler. Then again, maybe I'm way off base, especially since I don't watch Butler playing on a nightly basis. I still think Kyrie signs an extension at the end of next season, when he is eligible for a super max.
Kyrie is not eligible for a supermax contract. He's not on the team that drafted him nor has he been on the All-NBA team any of the last 3 years.

Exactly. He would make less going to the Knicks but not AD-like less. Part of the reason he felt comfortable leaving the Cavs. Plus as a sort of NYer playing for the Knicks, his off-court revenue streams would no doubt increase..
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Sophomore on August 15, 2018, 01:29:47 PM
We have to see how this season plays out.

If the Celtics make the finals (or win!) and everybody is happy, do we really think Kyrie is going to bolt to NYC? On the other hand, if there are injuries or chemistry problems and the team exits the playoffs early (spits, turns around three times, throws salt over shoulder to ward off disaster) maybe he might.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: JHTruth on August 15, 2018, 01:31:19 PM
We have to see how this season plays out.

If the Celtics make the finals (or win!) and everybody is happy, do we really think Kyrie is going to bolt to NYC? On the other hand, if there are injuries or chemistry problems and the team exits the playoffs early (spits, turns around three times, throws salt over shoulder to ward off disaster) maybe he might.

If we win the Finals, I think it makes his departure MORE likely, not less. He would have two rings, hung a banner for the C's. He would feel no obligation to stay.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Big333223 on August 15, 2018, 02:09:22 PM
When Kyrie Irving says "I want to play for another team," or makes a disparaging comment about Boston or about the Celtics, then I'll start worrying. Not before.

The best way to keep a player is to be a well run organization. Hopefully the Celtics are focused on that.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Ed Hollison on August 15, 2018, 02:37:03 PM
Yeah I also am not freaking out about Irving leaving. Most of the reports have either been to state the obvious (that Irving is friends with Butler, that he's from NJ, etc) or just speculative and expanding on existing reports.

He's the best player on one of the best teams in the league, with one of the brightest futures, led by one of the best coaches, in one of the country's top cities, playing with a guy he once recruited to play with him (Hayward) in Cleveland, and where he can make the most money. I understand he's friends with Jimmy Butler and all, but let's be reasonable.

Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Sophomore on August 15, 2018, 02:54:47 PM
We have to see how this season plays out.

If the Celtics make the finals (or win!) and everybody is happy, do we really think Kyrie is going to bolt to NYC? On the other hand, if there are injuries or chemistry problems and the team exits the playoffs early (spits, turns around three times, throws salt over shoulder to ward off disaster) maybe he might.

If we win the Finals, I think it makes his departure MORE likely, not less. He would have two rings, hung a banner for the C's. He would feel no obligation to stay.

Fair to say that I don't know what motivates him. Maybe he is thinking of that - trying to bring a championship to NYC, with Butler into the bargain.

If the year really blows up, I think he's more likely to go. He doesn't owe Boston anything and I doubt he thinks he has any obligations here. If he feels like NYC is his hometown and he can go there to play with someone he's determined to play with -- I think he showed us in Cleveland he'll leave a situation he doesn't like, and quick.

I'm also thinking that a successful year - not just in terms of bball achievements but team chemistry - might make Boston a place he wants to stay. Whatever his bond is to Butler, winning a championship on a team where the players (apparently) like each other and the culture could build some bonds here, and make for a situation he doesn't want to leave.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: SparzWizard on August 15, 2018, 03:06:38 PM
Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but ESPN has a "summer forecast" piece out today that asks various analysts where Irving, Butler, and Durant will play next season. Amazingly they give a slightly higher probability that Irving is on the Knicks (46.9%) than he is on the Celtics (43.8%).

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24381454/nba-2019-free-agent-predictions-espn-summer-forecast-knicks-celtics-timberwolves

Many predicted that LeBron was on his way to the Lakers back in October 2017 and they were correct.

These rumors and chatters are some things to look out for.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: saltlover on August 15, 2018, 03:28:01 PM
Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but ESPN has a "summer forecast" piece out today that asks various analysts where Irving, Butler, and Durant will play next season. Amazingly they give a slightly higher probability that Irving is on the Knicks (46.9%) than he is on the Celtics (43.8%).

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24381454/nba-2019-free-agent-predictions-espn-summer-forecast-knicks-celtics-timberwolves

Many predicted that LeBron was on his way to the Lakers back in October 2017 and they were correct.

These rumors and chatters are some things to look out for.

That’s all well and good, but, assuming they’re not letting Porzingis walk, the Knicks don’t even have the cap space for one max player, much less the two required by this “rumor”.  It will take a lot of cap gymnastics to get there, and require probably 2 1st round picks.  When the LeBron chatter happened, it was far easier to see, because they’d already cleared room for his salary, and there was a reasonable path for them to make room for an additional max player if necessary.  The Knicks are not in the same situation.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on August 15, 2018, 03:35:08 PM
Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but ESPN has a "summer forecast" piece out today that asks various analysts where Irving, Butler, and Durant will play next season. Amazingly they give a slightly higher probability that Irving is on the Knicks (46.9%) than he is on the Celtics (43.8%).

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24381454/nba-2019-free-agent-predictions-espn-summer-forecast-knicks-celtics-timberwolves

Many predicted that LeBron was on his way to the Lakers back in October 2017 and they were correct.

These rumors and chatters are some things to look out for.

That’s all well and good, but, assuming they’re not letting Porzingis walk, the Knicks don’t even have the cap space for one max player, much less the two required by this “rumor”.  It will take a lot of cap gymnastics to get there, and require probably 2 1st round picks.  When the LeBron chatter happened, it was far easier to see, because they’d already cleared room for his salary, and there was a reasonable path for them to make room for an additional max player if necessary.  The Knicks are not in the same situation.

Saltlover -- thank-you.

It becomes even more tricky if they end up stretching Noah. Some of the situations I've run were based on the idea they could trade his contract, which is looking more and more impossible. If they stretch him, it adds about 7 million to their books, requiring that they trade Lee, Hardaway, Baker, and Knox (or Frankie) to even get close to two max slots.

And they'd be teaming up with a 7'3'' big man with leg problems. And they wouldn't have other significant players under contract.

It's a pipedream narrative driven by media in a slow off-season.

I think the Knicks decision about Noah will show whether they truly believe they can get top free agents next off-season. If they waive him, it probably shows they think they can only get one high level guy financially, which probably means they don't think they can get a superstar (Butler or Irving) because those superstars would want to play with another guy.

If they keep Noah, it might mean they think they could trade him instead of waiving him, which means they continue to hold out hope for two max-level slots.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 15, 2018, 04:29:47 PM
Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but ESPN has a "summer forecast" piece out today that asks various analysts where Irving, Butler, and Durant will play next season. Amazingly they give a slightly higher probability that Irving is on the Knicks (46.9%) than he is on the Celtics (43.8%).

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24381454/nba-2019-free-agent-predictions-espn-summer-forecast-knicks-celtics-timberwolves

Many predicted that LeBron was on his way to the Lakers back in October 2017 and they were correct.

These rumors and chatters are some things to look out for.

That’s all well and good, but, assuming they’re not letting Porzingis walk, the Knicks don’t even have the cap space for one max player, much less the two required by this “rumor”.  It will take a lot of cap gymnastics to get there, and require probably 2 1st round picks.  When the LeBron chatter happened, it was far easier to see, because they’d already cleared room for his salary, and there was a reasonable path for them to make room for an additional max player if necessary.  The Knicks are not in the same situation.

Saltlover -- thank-you.

It becomes even more tricky if they end up stretching Noah. Some of the situations I've run were based on the idea they could trade his contract, which is looking more and more impossible. If they stretch him, it adds about 7 million to their books, requiring that they trade Lee, Hardaway, Baker, and Knox (or Frankie) to even get close to two max slots.

And they'd be teaming up with a 7'3'' big man with leg problems. And they wouldn't have other significant players under contract.

It's a pipedream narrative driven by media in a slow off-season.

I think the Knicks decision about Noah will show whether they truly believe they can get top free agents next off-season. If they waive him, it probably shows they think they can only get one high level guy financially, which probably means they don't think they can get a superstar (Butler or Irving) because those superstars would want to play with another guy.

If they keep Noah, it might mean they think they could trade him instead of waiving him, which means they continue to hold out hope for two max-level slots.
Noah has always been their biggest problem.  I think they could clear the other guys (and expect them to move some of those guys during the season). 
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: More Banners on August 15, 2018, 04:51:03 PM
I wonder about trying it Miami Heat style:  Trade everybody. Just start over. Trade Porzingis with Noah. Clear the books as much as possible. I'm pretty sure if they ever pulled it off in a good free agent year, they would immediately sign the best 3 free agents, and then get to pick the right guys at the right price around them, meaning guys who valued winning over money (since there wouldn't be any) like the Warriors are doing.

2019 might be the offseason to try something like that. (Hello, Memphis).  And  New York City is a heck of a draw, like South Beach and LA. Those are probably the 3 easiest NBA cities to lure players, so long as the team isn't garbage.

Isaiah's dumbest theory as Knicks GM was thinking the team was so rich they could overpay their roster even in the cap era and still make money. He should have figured the opposite: they're in NYC, and there is a salary cap, so maybe they could get players on a discount to come to NY, enjoy the life, and make it up in marketing deals (and playoff money).

Anyway, y'all have been all over NYK's payroll. Is it doable?
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: JHTruth on August 15, 2018, 04:58:52 PM
I wonder about trying it Miami Heat style:  Trade everybody. Just start over. Trade Porzingis with Noah. Clear the books as much as possible. I'm pretty sure if they ever pulled it off in a good free agent year, they would immediately sign the best 3 free agents, and then get to pick the right guys at the right price around them, meaning guys who valued winning over money (since there wouldn't be any) like the Warriors are doing.

2019 might be the offseason to try something like that. (Hello, Memphis).  And  New York City is a heck of a draw, like South Beach and LA. Those are probably the 3 easiest NBA cities to lure players, so long as the team isn't garbage.

Isaiah's dumbest theory as Knicks GM was thinking the team was so rich they could overpay their roster even in the cap era and still make money. He should have figured the opposite: they're in NYC, and there is a salary cap, so maybe they could get players on a discount to come to NY, enjoy the life, and make it up in marketing deals (and playoff money).

Anyway, y'all have been all over NYK's payroll. Is it doable?

I think this is more what they are thinking honestly. It's either this or more years of a terrible team built around a guy who just isn't durable or good enough to be a true franchise stud. I like Porzingis but he's just not built for the pounding a No 1 guy takes and his performance is not worth $158mm. This is NY, Dolan, the fans etc never rebuild through the draft or whatever, they're always itching to sign big names, the quicker the better.

They could trade Noah along with Porzingis for one of their targets (presumably Durant, Kyrie, and Butler and then maybe draft picks to get rid of one of Lee or THJ. Then one guy waits on an extension, you time it right, you end up with all three.

Otherwise, their options are extremely limited and only get more so after maxing out the Zinger..
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: saltlover on August 15, 2018, 05:03:13 PM
I wonder about trying it Miami Heat style:  Trade everybody. Just start over. Trade Porzingis with Noah. Clear the books as much as possible. I'm pretty sure if they ever pulled it off in a good free agent year, they would immediately sign the best 3 free agents, and then get to pick the right guys at the right price around them, meaning guys who valued winning over money (since there wouldn't be any) like the Warriors are doing.

2019 might be the offseason to try something like that. (Hello, Memphis).  And  New York City is a heck of a draw, like South Beach and LA. Those are probably the 3 easiest NBA cities to lure players, so long as the team isn't garbage.

Isaiah's dumbest theory as Knicks GM was thinking the team was so rich they could overpay their roster even in the cap era and still make money. He should have figured the opposite: they're in NYC, and there is a salary cap, so maybe they could get players on a discount to come to NY, enjoy the life, and make it up in marketing deals (and playoff money).

Anyway, y'all have been all over NYK's payroll. Is it doable?

I think this is more what they are thinking honestly. It's either this or more years of a terrible team built around a guy who just isn't durable or good enough to be a true franchise stud. I like Porzingis but he's just not built for the pounding a No 1 guy takes and his performance is not worth $158mm. This is NY, Dolan, the fans etc never rebuild through the draft or whatever, they're always itching to sign big names, the quicker the better.

They could trade Noah along with Porzingis for one of their targets (presumably Durant, Kyrie, and Butler and then maybe draft picks to get rid of one of Lee or THJ. Then one guy waits on an extension, you time it right, you end up with all three.

Otherwise, their options are extremely limited and only get more so after maxing out the Zinger..

Why would any of the three teams do that trade?  Certainly it’d make zero sense for either Boston or Golden State, who are title contenders.  Meanwhile, Minnesota can’t afford to take on Noah’s contract and pay Porzingis AND Towns next year.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: JHTruth on August 15, 2018, 05:05:06 PM
I wonder about trying it Miami Heat style:  Trade everybody. Just start over. Trade Porzingis with Noah. Clear the books as much as possible. I'm pretty sure if they ever pulled it off in a good free agent year, they would immediately sign the best 3 free agents, and then get to pick the right guys at the right price around them, meaning guys who valued winning over money (since there wouldn't be any) like the Warriors are doing.

2019 might be the offseason to try something like that. (Hello, Memphis).  And  New York City is a heck of a draw, like South Beach and LA. Those are probably the 3 easiest NBA cities to lure players, so long as the team isn't garbage.

Isaiah's dumbest theory as Knicks GM was thinking the team was so rich they could overpay their roster even in the cap era and still make money. He should have figured the opposite: they're in NYC, and there is a salary cap, so maybe they could get players on a discount to come to NY, enjoy the life, and make it up in marketing deals (and playoff money).

Anyway, y'all have been all over NYK's payroll. Is it doable?

I think this is more what they are thinking honestly. It's either this or more years of a terrible team built around a guy who just isn't durable or good enough to be a true franchise stud. I like Porzingis but he's just not built for the pounding a No 1 guy takes and his performance is not worth $158mm. This is NY, Dolan, the fans etc never rebuild through the draft or whatever, they're always itching to sign big names, the quicker the better.

They could trade Noah along with Porzingis for one of their targets (presumably Durant, Kyrie, and Butler and then maybe draft picks to get rid of one of Lee or THJ. Then one guy waits on an extension, you time it right, you end up with all three.

Otherwise, their options are extremely limited and only get more so after maxing out the Zinger..

Why would any of the three teams do that trade?  Certainly it’d make zero sense for either Boston or Golden State, who are title contenders.  Meanwhile, Minnesota can’t afford to take on Noah’s contract and pay Porzingis AND Towns next year.

Well that's the trick. They have to clear enough space to appear to be players in 2019. Thereby worrying teams that they will lose their FA for nothing. They can use the Nets two max spots as leverage, inciting some type of fear of FOMO..

Don't think it's easy, but not sure what their alternatives are..
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: saltlover on August 15, 2018, 05:14:31 PM
I wonder about trying it Miami Heat style:  Trade everybody. Just start over. Trade Porzingis with Noah. Clear the books as much as possible. I'm pretty sure if they ever pulled it off in a good free agent year, they would immediately sign the best 3 free agents, and then get to pick the right guys at the right price around them, meaning guys who valued winning over money (since there wouldn't be any) like the Warriors are doing.

2019 might be the offseason to try something like that. (Hello, Memphis).  And  New York City is a heck of a draw, like South Beach and LA. Those are probably the 3 easiest NBA cities to lure players, so long as the team isn't garbage.

Isaiah's dumbest theory as Knicks GM was thinking the team was so rich they could overpay their roster even in the cap era and still make money. He should have figured the opposite: they're in NYC, and there is a salary cap, so maybe they could get players on a discount to come to NY, enjoy the life, and make it up in marketing deals (and playoff money).

Anyway, y'all have been all over NYK's payroll. Is it doable?

I think this is more what they are thinking honestly. It's either this or more years of a terrible team built around a guy who just isn't durable or good enough to be a true franchise stud. I like Porzingis but he's just not built for the pounding a No 1 guy takes and his performance is not worth $158mm. This is NY, Dolan, the fans etc never rebuild through the draft or whatever, they're always itching to sign big names, the quicker the better.

They could trade Noah along with Porzingis for one of their targets (presumably Durant, Kyrie, and Butler and then maybe draft picks to get rid of one of Lee or THJ. Then one guy waits on an extension, you time it right, you end up with all three.

Otherwise, their options are extremely limited and only get more so after maxing out the Zinger..

Why would any of the three teams do that trade?  Certainly it’d make zero sense for either Boston or Golden State, who are title contenders.  Meanwhile, Minnesota can’t afford to take on Noah’s contract and pay Porzingis AND Towns next year.

Well that's the trick. They have to clear enough space to appear to be players in 2019. Thereby worrying teams that they will lose their FA for nothing. They can use the Nets two max spots as leverage, inciting some type of fear of FOMO..

Don't think it's easy, but not sure what their alternatives are..

Right, but title contending teams should never trade away a star just because he might walk.  You win the title, have the parade, and let the chips fall where they may, knowing that banner will always hang.  So no way would either Golden State or Boston make that trade.  Meanwhile Minnesota becomes a tax team with lesser talent just to get something for Butler?  I dont think so.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: JHTruth on August 15, 2018, 05:15:53 PM
I wonder about trying it Miami Heat style:  Trade everybody. Just start over. Trade Porzingis with Noah. Clear the books as much as possible. I'm pretty sure if they ever pulled it off in a good free agent year, they would immediately sign the best 3 free agents, and then get to pick the right guys at the right price around them, meaning guys who valued winning over money (since there wouldn't be any) like the Warriors are doing.

2019 might be the offseason to try something like that. (Hello, Memphis).  And  New York City is a heck of a draw, like South Beach and LA. Those are probably the 3 easiest NBA cities to lure players, so long as the team isn't garbage.

Isaiah's dumbest theory as Knicks GM was thinking the team was so rich they could overpay their roster even in the cap era and still make money. He should have figured the opposite: they're in NYC, and there is a salary cap, so maybe they could get players on a discount to come to NY, enjoy the life, and make it up in marketing deals (and playoff money).

Anyway, y'all have been all over NYK's payroll. Is it doable?

I think this is more what they are thinking honestly. It's either this or more years of a terrible team built around a guy who just isn't durable or good enough to be a true franchise stud. I like Porzingis but he's just not built for the pounding a No 1 guy takes and his performance is not worth $158mm. This is NY, Dolan, the fans etc never rebuild through the draft or whatever, they're always itching to sign big names, the quicker the better.

They could trade Noah along with Porzingis for one of their targets (presumably Durant, Kyrie, and Butler and then maybe draft picks to get rid of one of Lee or THJ. Then one guy waits on an extension, you time it right, you end up with all three.

Otherwise, their options are extremely limited and only get more so after maxing out the Zinger..

Why would any of the three teams do that trade?  Certainly it’d make zero sense for either Boston or Golden State, who are title contenders.  Meanwhile, Minnesota can’t afford to take on Noah’s contract and pay Porzingis AND Towns next year.

Well that's the trick. They have to clear enough space to appear to be players in 2019. Thereby worrying teams that they will lose their FA for nothing. They can use the Nets two max spots as leverage, inciting some type of fear of FOMO..

Don't think it's easy, but not sure what their alternatives are..

Right, but title contending teams should never trade away a star just because he might walk.  You win the title, have the parade, and let the chips fall where they may, knowing that banner will always hang.  So no way would either Golden State or Boston make that trade.  Meanwhile Minnesota becomes a tax team with lesser talent just to get something for Butler?  I dont think so.

This is the way I view it. I am comfortable with Kyrie walking next summer. But maybe the Celtics FO won't be. Who knows..
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Vermont Green on August 15, 2018, 05:24:31 PM
I can't imagine that the Celtics would trade Irving based on fear of him signing elsewhere but fear of a recurring knee could lead them to consider a trade.  I don't think this is likely though.

There is always a risk that Irving will sign somewhere else but I feel that so long as he is here and the team is playing well, we will be the front runners to keep him.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Chief Macho on August 15, 2018, 05:32:03 PM
I think he leaves, but not much to do about it.  Lets just try to win it.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: nickagneta on August 15, 2018, 05:46:22 PM
I have a feeling that if Danny wasn't sure Kyrie was staying he would have moved him this offseason. These reports regarding Kyrie and Butler are great rumors but there is nothing coming from Kyrie's camp that is fueling it. The man gave up millions to come here so he could be the man here. Don't see him doing anything but resigning, especially after last year and the coming season.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: cman88 on August 15, 2018, 06:56:15 PM
I think its butlers camp and NYC media that is driving this.

Otherwise, would be really stupid for Irving to leave this situation which is basically a top 5 team in the NBA, maybe in top 2 potentially for a dumpster fire that is NYC. Butler isnt even really that good...Hayward is better, and tatum/brown could be better this year or even more in a couple years.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: JHTruth on August 15, 2018, 06:59:12 PM
I think its butlers camp and NYC media that is driving this.

Otherwise, would be really stupid for Irving to leave this situation which is basically a top 5 team in the NBA, maybe in top 2 potentially for a dumpster fire that is NYC. Butler isnt even really that good...Hayward is better, and tatum/brown could be better this year or even more in a couple years.

Yes from our perspective it would be "stupid" for Kyrie to leave but obviously we aren't Kyrie. It might be completely obvious to him to choose a different team. We don't know. Everyone thought he was "stupid" for wanting out of the Cavs as well. Seems like a good move now..
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on August 15, 2018, 08:13:51 PM
This has been on my mind the last couple of months, so I'm just going to say it / type it.

If next season Kyrie Andrew irving plays at a 2015-16 (Championship) level,

Gets into top 3-5 MVP voting,

Plays out of his mind in the playoffs,

Gets his teammates involved,

Incorporates Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Smart and the rest of this team,

Enable Tatum and Brown to continue their growth,

Helps Coach Stevens and Pres. Ainge to achieve Coach of the year and Executive of the year, and FINALLY

Helps us to raise Banner 18 in June of 2019...........

Then "IF" he STILL chooses to leave BOS and go play with Jimmy Butler wherever -

I honestly won't care and I'll WISH HIM WELL. He would always be a hero to me and I wouldn't be mad.

Just get us to Banner 18 Kyrie. Then I wouldn't care where he went.

Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: cman88 on August 15, 2018, 10:45:51 PM
I think its butlers camp and NYC media that is driving this.

Otherwise, would be really stupid for Irving to leave this situation which is basically a top 5 team in the NBA, maybe in top 2 potentially for a dumpster fire that is NYC. Butler isnt even really that good...Hayward is better, and tatum/brown could be better this year or even more in a couple years.

Yes from our perspective it would be "stupid" for Kyrie to leave but obviously we aren't Kyrie. It might be completely obvious to him to choose a different team. We don't know. Everyone thought he was "stupid" for wanting out of the Cavs as well. Seems like a good move now..

writing was on the wall with the cavs though...when he wanted out, everyone said "he wants out before lebron leaves him" also, cavs just got decimated in the finals and looked near the end.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: IDreamCeltics on August 16, 2018, 06:32:10 AM
Honestly where there's this much smoke there's fire.  ESPN posted a video a while back with former NBA player Jaylen Brown confirming these rumors and he's generally pretty tied into the NBA circles. 

I'm not going to rehash Kyrie's history of jumping ship on a championship team, but let's not pretend that he'd be unwilling to abandon a team due to how "good" the team was.

Most importantly if we want to keep Jaylen Brown and Tatum on the roster we need to open up some cap room, either Al horford or Kyrie is the most likely candidate to be ousted since the Celtics inexplicably tied up 11 million a year in Marcus Smart.

Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: gouki88 on August 16, 2018, 07:47:47 AM
Honestly where there's this much smoke there's fire.  ESPN posted a video a while back with former NBA player Jaylen Brown confirming these rumors and he's generally pretty tied into the NBA circles. 

I'm not going to rehash Kyrie's history of jumping ship on a championship team, but let's not pretend that he'd be unwilling to abandon a team due to how "good" the team was.

Most importantly if we want to keep Jaylen Brown and Tatum on the roster we need to open up some cap room, either Al horford or Kyrie is the most likely candidate to be ousted since the Celtics inexplicably tied up 11 million a year in Marcus Smart.
Huh...
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Sophomore on August 16, 2018, 08:08:24 AM
Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but ESPN has a "summer forecast" piece out today that asks various analysts where Irving, Butler, and Durant will play next season. Amazingly they give a slightly higher probability that Irving is on the Knicks (46.9%) than he is on the Celtics (43.8%).

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24381454/nba-2019-free-agent-predictions-espn-summer-forecast-knicks-celtics-timberwolves

Many predicted that LeBron was on his way to the Lakers back in October 2017 and they were correct.

These rumors and chatters are some things to look out for.

That’s all well and good, but, assuming they’re not letting Porzingis walk, the Knicks don’t even have the cap space for one max player, much less the two required by this “rumor”.  It will take a lot of cap gymnastics to get there, and require probably 2 1st round picks.  When the LeBron chatter happened, it was far easier to see, because they’d already cleared room for his salary, and there was a reasonable path for them to make room for an additional max player if necessary.  The Knicks are not in the same situation.

Saltlover -- thank-you.

It becomes even more tricky if they end up stretching Noah. Some of the situations I've run were based on the idea they could trade his contract, which is looking more and more impossible. If they stretch him, it adds about 7 million to their books, requiring that they trade Lee, Hardaway, Baker, and Knox (or Frankie) to even get close to two max slots.

And they'd be teaming up with a 7'3'' big man with leg problems. And they wouldn't have other significant players under contract.

It's a pipedream narrative driven by media in a slow off-season.

I think the Knicks decision about Noah will show whether they truly believe they can get top free agents next off-season. If they waive him, it probably shows they think they can only get one high level guy financially, which probably means they don't think they can get a superstar (Butler or Irving) because those superstars would want to play with another guy.

If they keep Noah, it might mean they think they could trade him instead of waiving him, which means they continue to hold out hope for two max-level slots.

If his goal is to get to NYC, why are we sure he’d be headed for the Knicks? Next year it looks like the Nets have about $43 million on their books (I’m assuming Crabbe picks up his option). It’s true, the Nets are bad, but so are the Knicks!

Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: saltlover on August 16, 2018, 08:33:12 AM
Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but ESPN has a "summer forecast" piece out today that asks various analysts where Irving, Butler, and Durant will play next season. Amazingly they give a slightly higher probability that Irving is on the Knicks (46.9%) than he is on the Celtics (43.8%).

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24381454/nba-2019-free-agent-predictions-espn-summer-forecast-knicks-celtics-timberwolves

Many predicted that LeBron was on his way to the Lakers back in October 2017 and they were correct.

These rumors and chatters are some things to look out for.

That’s all well and good, but, assuming they’re not letting Porzingis walk, the Knicks don’t even have the cap space for one max player, much less the two required by this “rumor”.  It will take a lot of cap gymnastics to get there, and require probably 2 1st round picks.  When the LeBron chatter happened, it was far easier to see, because they’d already cleared room for his salary, and there was a reasonable path for them to make room for an additional max player if necessary.  The Knicks are not in the same situation.

Saltlover -- thank-you.

It becomes even more tricky if they end up stretching Noah. Some of the situations I've run were based on the idea they could trade his contract, which is looking more and more impossible. If they stretch him, it adds about 7 million to their books, requiring that they trade Lee, Hardaway, Baker, and Knox (or Frankie) to even get close to two max slots.

And they'd be teaming up with a 7'3'' big man with leg problems. And they wouldn't have other significant players under contract.

It's a pipedream narrative driven by media in a slow off-season.

I think the Knicks decision about Noah will show whether they truly believe they can get top free agents next off-season. If they waive him, it probably shows they think they can only get one high level guy financially, which probably means they don't think they can get a superstar (Butler or Irving) because those superstars would want to play with another guy.

If they keep Noah, it might mean they think they could trade him instead of waiving him, which means they continue to hold out hope for two max-level slots.

If his goal is to get to NYC, why are we sure he’d be headed for the Knicks? Next year it looks like the Nets have about $43 million on their books (I’m assuming Crabbe picks up his option). It’s true, the Nets are bad, but so are the Knicks!

Only because in the aforementioned ESPN article, 15 of 32 “experts” said the Knicks while 1 of 32 said the Nets.  1 “expert” also thinks Kyrie is going to team up with LeBron in LA, so...
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Chris22 on August 16, 2018, 08:39:34 AM
Irving and Butler?

Who is going to defend?
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: freshinthehouse on August 16, 2018, 08:49:00 AM
Irving and Butler?

Who is going to defend?

Butler is terrific on defense.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: mef730 on August 16, 2018, 08:50:51 AM
Honestly where there's this much smoke there's fire.  ESPN posted a video a while back with former NBA player Jaylen Brown confirming these rumors and he's generally pretty tied into the NBA circles. 

I'm not going to rehash Kyrie's history of jumping ship on a championship team, but let's not pretend that he'd be unwilling to abandon a team due to how "good" the team was.

Most importantly if we want to keep Jaylen Brown and Tatum on the roster we need to open up some cap room, either Al horford or Kyrie is the most likely candidate to be ousted since the Celtics inexplicably tied up 11 million a year in Marcus Smart.
Huh...

I'm guessing he meant Jalen Rose. If not, then we have a far more interesting story than Butler/Irving on our hands.

BTW, here is a link I found with the Knicks salary situation. I'm assuming that it is up to date.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/NYK.html

Mike
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: BitterJim on August 16, 2018, 11:16:54 AM
Honestly where there's this much smoke there's fire.  ESPN posted a video a while back with former NBA player Jaylen Brown confirming these rumors and he's generally pretty tied into the NBA circles. 

I'm not going to rehash Kyrie's history of jumping ship on a championship team, but let's not pretend that he'd be unwilling to abandon a team due to how "good" the team was.

Most importantly if we want to keep Jaylen Brown and Tatum on the roster we need to open up some cap room, either Al horford or Kyrie is the most likely candidate to be ousted since the Celtics inexplicably tied up 11 million a year in Marcus Smart.

Errrr, what? They will be re-signed with bird rights, no cap room required. And if they did need cap room, getting rid of Irving wouldn't get us anywhere near low enough salary-wise.

If you mean more in a tax way (as in the team won't pay the tax to re-sign Tatum/Brown unless we greatly reduce salary by getting rid of our best player or best big), then I completely disagree. If you want to win championships, then you don't let a top player in the league go because you don't want to pay the tax
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: JHTruth on August 16, 2018, 11:27:07 AM
If there was anything that would lead me to believe Kyrie might leave its the fact that he really hasn't tried to connect with Boston at all since he's been traded. Hayward and Horford and their wives are always giving updates to Celtic fans on their injuries and what not, cheering for the team on Twitter. Hayward got on the mic and told all the fans he plans on being back stronger than ever.

One could imagine them being completely happy playing out their careers here. Because they chose Boston. Kyrie is still pretty distant. He talks about he would love to play with Porzingis. Even Maxwell said on Kaufman's podcast Kyrie is pretty standoffish to him, isn't real chatty. He decides to get surgery on the day of Game 7.

You never see Kyrie just expressing how much he likes the team unprompted. Some of that may just be his personality but if you wanted to be with a team long-term and wanted them to pay you over $100mm wouldn't you weave yourself into the fabric of the franchise a bit more? His twitter really has no C's branding on it at all. He's never in the media talking about the team.

It's just really strange..
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: RJ87 on August 16, 2018, 12:55:36 PM
If there was anything that would lead me to believe Kyrie might leave its the fact that he really hasn't tried to connect with Boston at all since he's been traded. Hayward and Horford and their wives are always giving updates to Celtic fans on their injuries and what not, cheering for the team on Twitter. Hayward got on the mic and told all the fans he plans on being back stronger than ever.

One could imagine them being completely happy playing out their careers here. Because they chose Boston. Kyrie is still pretty distant. He talks about he would love to play with Porzingis. Even Maxwell said on Kaufman's podcast Kyrie is pretty standoffish to him, isn't real chatty. He decides to get surgery on the day of Game 7.

You never see Kyrie just expressing how much he likes the team unprompted. Some of that may just be his personality but if you wanted to be with a team long-term and wanted them to pay you over $100mm wouldn't you weave yourself into the fabric of the franchise a bit more? His twitter really has no C's branding on it at all. He's never in the media talking about the team.

It's just really strange..

Except he has. He's talked about how much he enjoys his teammates and Brad Stevens. But clearly, no one pays attention that stuff. Listen to him on the Bill Simmons podcast.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: bknova on August 16, 2018, 01:13:53 PM
I gotta say, no sport, absolutely no other sport, does a better job of engaging the narrative during the offseason. 

Soap Opera nonsense.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: bdm860 on August 16, 2018, 01:40:42 PM
If there was anything that would lead me to believe Kyrie might leave its the fact that he really hasn't tried to connect with Boston at all since he's been traded. Hayward and Horford and their wives are always giving updates to Celtic fans on their injuries and what not, cheering for the team on Twitter. Hayward got on the mic and told all the fans he plans on being back stronger than ever.

One could imagine them being completely happy playing out their careers here. Because they chose Boston. Kyrie is still pretty distant. He talks about he would love to play with Porzingis. Even Maxwell said on Kaufman's podcast Kyrie is pretty standoffish to him, isn't real chatty. He decides to get surgery on the day of Game 7.

You never see Kyrie just expressing how much he likes the team unprompted. Some of that may just be his personality but if you wanted to be with a team long-term and wanted them to pay you over $100mm wouldn't you weave yourself into the fabric of the franchise a bit more? His twitter really has no C's branding on it at all. He's never in the media talking about the team.

It's just really strange..

Except he has. He's talked about how much he enjoys his teammates and Brad Stevens. But clearly, no one pays attention that stuff. Listen to him on the Bill Simmons podcast.

He's definitely embraced his teammates.  He was on the bench for several games during the playoffs (more than Hayward), having fun when his teammates do well.

(https://i.giphy.com/media/4acY17ArhlAe3w9jUz/giphy.webp)

We know he's talking with teammates during the offseason.
 (https://twitter.com/chrisgrenham/status/1027261569204465664)
He's hosting local camps with teammates during the offseason. (https://www.celticsblog.com/2018/7/9/17546792/jayson-tatum-and-kyrie-irving-school-kids-at-local-camp-boston-celtics-summer)

Seems to be embracing the team and the city to me.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: spikelovetheCelts on August 16, 2018, 01:55:59 PM
If there was anything that would lead me to believe Kyrie might leave its the fact that he really hasn't tried to connect with Boston at all since he's been traded. Hayward and Horford and their wives are always giving updates to Celtic fans on their injuries and what not, cheering for the team on Twitter. Hayward got on the mic and told all the fans he plans on being back stronger than ever.

One could imagine them being completely happy playing out their careers here. Because they chose Boston. Kyrie is still pretty distant. He talks about he would love to play with Porzingis. Even Maxwell said on Kaufman's podcast Kyrie is pretty standoffish to him, isn't real chatty. He decides to get surgery on the day of Game 7.

You never see Kyrie just expressing how much he likes the team unprompted. Some of that may just be his personality but if you wanted to be with a team long-term and wanted them to pay you over $100mm wouldn't you weave yourself into the fabric of the franchise a bit more? His twitter really has no C's branding on it at all. He's never in the media talking about the team.

It's just really strange..

Except he has. He's talked about how much he enjoys his teammates and Brad Stevens. But clearly, no one pays attention that stuff. Listen to him on the Bill Simmons podcast.

He's definitely embraced his teammates.  He was on the bench for several games during the playoffs (more than Hayward), having fun when his teammates do well.

(https://i.giphy.com/media/4acY17ArhlAe3w9jUz/giphy.webp)

We know he's talking with teammates during the offseason.
 (https://twitter.com/chrisgrenham/status/1027261569204465664)
He's hosting local camps with teammates during the offseason. (https://www.celticsblog.com/2018/7/9/17546792/jayson-tatum-and-kyrie-irving-school-kids-at-local-camp-boston-celtics-summer)

Seems to be embracing the team and the city to me.
Making the Finals and Knowing you will win a few changes everything, too. I am not worried in the least.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Rosco917 on August 16, 2018, 02:05:44 PM
If Kyrie is dumb enough to leave an organization like the Celtics on the brink of a long run of success for a team that hasn't been relevant in 15 years then let him go. He wanted his own team...he got much more than he anticipated, he got a team on the brink of major success and a team that could make him into an NBA legend after he retires someday. If he's shallow enough to not want to see his number possibly hanging from the rafters of the Boston Garden then "bye bye."

With the coming emergence of Tatum and Brown and the return of Hayward, the Celtic would need to find a PG that can facilitate well, defend well and score enough. Who knows, maybe he's already on the team. We don't have to have a Kyrie Irving to take 20+ shots a game for this team to go where it's hopefully headed.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Kuberski33 on August 16, 2018, 02:48:32 PM
I've heard Irving say in an interview (may have been with Simmons) that he's very much in favor of stars playing with their friends if it can be worked out and he kind of left the door open to himself doing that at some point.

While I agree that you don't deal someone based on the idea that he MAY not re-sign - I do think Danny is keeping his options open.  For example if Rozier has a big season - maybe you commit to him and deploy the extra 'Kyrie' money somewhere else.

Or if someone else becomes available who might slot into the existing team, maybe Danny considers it - where he wouldn't have before.

I do believe in the 'where there's smoke there's fire' thing so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Irving wants to go off and team up with Butler.  However he should also realize that Danny would trade his sister if he thought the team would benefit from it, so maybe if he does want to stay he should be saying that to management - at least in private.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 16, 2018, 03:08:55 PM
Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns. That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams. 

Edit: I do realize Minny needs to dump salary to get below the tax line, which would require a 3rd team (like say the Kings).
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on August 16, 2018, 03:10:40 PM
Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 16, 2018, 03:13:45 PM
Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Evantime34 on August 16, 2018, 03:21:05 PM
I believe the chatter is substantial in that media members are talking about it. The volume of chatter always increases when one of the major markets is involved.

I don't think Kyrie leaves next year, but even if he and Butler sign with the Knicks I still think the C's would have a better team.

Mostly, I think this information is being leaked so that Boston and Minnesota know that they have to give Kyrie/Butler anything they want in their contract or they will leave.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: slamtheking on August 16, 2018, 03:31:57 PM
Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.
yes, you could.

Irving is the best player in that deal.  period.  best scorer by far.  capable defender.  very good passer and topnotch ball handler. 
Towns right now is the second best player in the deal but the gap between him and Brown isn't as big as you would suggest.  Towns doesn't defend well -- I'd attribute that to effort/motivation rather than the inability to do so.  Brown on the other hand is an excellent defender and his offense made a significant leap last year.  His motivation to improve is not questioned unlike Towns.  I would not be surprised in 2 years if Brown is perceived as the better player than Towns if he continues to make improvements to his game.

Teague is clearly the least valued player in that trade due to age and his skills have plateaued at a level I would consider to be less than Brown's current level.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on August 16, 2018, 04:03:52 PM
Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

On the same reasoning you might use for Towns over Brown, I think you should use for Irving over Towns. Towns no-showed in the playoffs, whereas Irving hit one of the biggest shots in finals history. Irving is the more proven player.

I don't necessarily think Brown is better than Towns (edit: wrong order), but I do think you could argue that high level two-way wings are more valuable than offensive-minded, defensive sivs big men.

On top of that, if you compare their last post-seasons, you could argue Brown was better. Brown's per 36 numbers were 20, 5, and 2 on 47/39/64 % shooting clips. Towns averaged 16, 14 and 2 on 47/27/74 shooting clips. The Wolves offrating was 106 and defrating was 112 with Towns on the floor. The Celtics offrating was 108 and defrathingwas 108 with Brown on the floor.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: indeedproceed on August 16, 2018, 04:21:18 PM
Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: RJ87 on August 16, 2018, 04:30:15 PM
If there was anything that would lead me to believe Kyrie might leave its the fact that he really hasn't tried to connect with Boston at all since he's been traded. Hayward and Horford and their wives are always giving updates to Celtic fans on their injuries and what not, cheering for the team on Twitter. Hayward got on the mic and told all the fans he plans on being back stronger than ever.

One could imagine them being completely happy playing out their careers here. Because they chose Boston. Kyrie is still pretty distant. He talks about he would love to play with Porzingis. Even Maxwell said on Kaufman's podcast Kyrie is pretty standoffish to him, isn't real chatty. He decides to get surgery on the day of Game 7.

You never see Kyrie just expressing how much he likes the team unprompted. Some of that may just be his personality but if you wanted to be with a team long-term and wanted them to pay you over $100mm wouldn't you weave yourself into the fabric of the franchise a bit more? His twitter really has no C's branding on it at all. He's never in the media talking about the team.

It's just really strange..

Except he has. He's talked about how much he enjoys his teammates and Brad Stevens. But clearly, no one pays attention that stuff. Listen to him on the Bill Simmons podcast.

He's definitely embraced his teammates.  He was on the bench for several games during the playoffs (more than Hayward), having fun when his teammates do well.

(https://i.giphy.com/media/4acY17ArhlAe3w9jUz/giphy.webp)

We know he's talking with teammates during the offseason.
 (https://twitter.com/chrisgrenham/status/1027261569204465664)
He's hosting local camps with teammates during the offseason. (https://www.celticsblog.com/2018/7/9/17546792/jayson-tatum-and-kyrie-irving-school-kids-at-local-camp-boston-celtics-summer)

Seems to be embracing the team and the city to me.

Agreed. But there's a narrative around him and no matter what evidence there is to suggest otherwise, people won't acknowledge it.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 16, 2018, 04:39:36 PM
Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become. 
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 16, 2018, 04:58:42 PM
Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

On the same reasoning you might use for Towns over Brown, I think you should use for Irving over Towns. Towns no-showed in the playoffs, whereas Irving hit one of the biggest shots in finals history. Irving is the more proven player.

I don't necessarily think Brown is better than Towns (edit: wrong order), but I do think you could argue that high level two-way wings are more valuable than offensive-minded, defensive sivs big men.

On top of that, if you compare their last post-seasons, you could argue Brown was better. Brown's per 36 numbers were 20, 5, and 2 on 47/39/64 % shooting clips. Towns averaged 16, 14 and 2 on 47/27/74 shooting clips. The Wolves offrating was 106 and defrating was 112 with Towns on the floor. The Celtics offrating was 108 and defrathingwas 108 with Brown on the floor.
The Timberwolves played the Rockets.  You aren't seriously basing your analysis on a 5 game series against the best team in the league over the course of the season (who probably wins the title if Paul doesn't get hurt in the WCF).  I don't recall even seeing Irving playing the post season this year though. 

Towns in his 2nd and 3rd years averaged 25.1 p and 12.3 r and followed that up (on a better team) with 21.3 p and 12.3 r.  He adds around 2.5 assists and 1.4 blocks.  This year the Wolves were 13.5 points per 100 possessions worse when he was on the bench.  As a comparison Boston was only 3.1 points per 100 possessions worse when Irving was the on the bench (which is supported by the fact that Boston had almost essentially the same win pace in the games Irving missed and that includes the incredible start to the season).  Brown led the Celtics in on/off at 8.4 points per 100 possessions.   

As for Irving being a better scorer, for his career Irving scores just 1.26 points per shot (last year he was 1.35).  Towns for his career averages 1.39 points per shot (last year he was 1.49 which is an epic level).  Towns TS% last year was 64.6% and his career average is 61.8%.  Irving set his career high last year at 61.0% and his career average is just 56.8%. The highest individual season from 3PT% is 42.1% and it isn't Irving.  They have almost identical career 3PT% and Towns has gotten better all 3 seasons he has been in the league.  There is no question Irving is a better ball handler than Towns.

As for defense, Towns is not a great defender, but he is absolutely a better defender than Irving.  Irving is just a flat out awful defender.  He gives no effort and frankly even when he does he is mediocre at best.  Towns had the best DRTG on the Wolves last year and he had to cover a lot for guys like Wiggins and Gibson who are just awful defenders.  Put Towns on a team like the Celtics and all of a sudden he will magically become a good defender because he won't need to cover up the mistakes of others as much (he will also benefit a great deal from playing next to Horford as opposed to Gibson and Dieng who he just doesn't fit well next to).

Town is just flat out a monster.  The only reason the Wolves would consider making that type of trade would be as a means to keep Butler (with Irving) in Minnesota.  I suspect though that the Wolves would rather just keep Towns and move on from Butler as Towns is a monster, something no one else in that trade is (and yes that includes Irving).
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: nickagneta on August 16, 2018, 04:58:42 PM
Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.
Instead of looking at Teague's last 5 years let's do a comparison of each player's 2017-18 season:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jaylen+Brown&player_id1_select=Jaylen+Brown&y1=2018&player_id1=brownja02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Jeff+Teague&player_id2_select=Jeff+Teague&y2=2018&player_id2=teaguje01&idx=players

Sure looks like they have numbers that are pretty close but Brown came in 15th in voting for the All-Defense team. To me, that says Brown is already the better player with a ton of potential to really separate how much better he is this year.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on August 16, 2018, 05:01:38 PM
Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.

Yes. That is true, but I think you also may have the tendency of over-estimating other players.

Teague's all-star appearance was in a down year in the East when the Hawks won 60 games in a perfect team system. He is a perfectly average point guard. He is a good pick-and-roll player, solid passer, and good shooter. But he is a below average defender. He is probably in the same tier as a healthy Brandon Knight, or Reggie Jackson, or Schroeder. Honestly, players like Teague are extremely expendable, because guards who can run the pick-and-roll are a dime-a-dozen. Players like Dinwiddie, or Payton, or Mills, or Ish Smith can provide almost as much production at a fraction of the cost. If Thibs wouldn't have outbidded himself, I'm not sure what kind of contract Teague would have got last year.

Players like Brown, even if Brown never gets better (and he likely will), are much more valuable than Teague. Brown can guard 1-4 (and often did last year), shoot at a good clip, and rebound pretty well. His versatility is a highly-coveted asset in the league right now.

You could possibly argue Teague is a better player than Brown (although I'd disagree), but when I said the Wolves get the two best players in the deal, I wasn't just talking present-day. Brown's value is probably at least double Teague's especially on Teague's contract.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: saltlover on August 16, 2018, 05:46:32 PM
Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.

If I had the time, I’d argue that in this crazy world where we make such a trade Teague doesn’t even start for the Celtics.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: td450 on August 16, 2018, 06:05:30 PM
Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.
I'd bet that the C's wouldn't take that deal, and I'd also bet Minnesota would become a better team if they did.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: celticsclay on August 16, 2018, 06:17:10 PM
Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.

This is a pretty hilarious way to phrase it man. Should we try to pry former all-star Deng from the Lakers. Heck former all-star Roy Hibbert is only 1 year older than Teague. Funny phrasing aside, Teague is not a quality starting point guard at this point. I really don't think you can win a championship with him starting at point guard, and you obviously can with Irving because it has happened.

 While KAT has potential you are definitely overselling his defense. He has been bad throughout his career and I believe Butler has even frustrated by his work ethic. I don't know why we would give up our championship opportunity this year when it is not clear if a team of Tatum, Towns, Horford, Hayward and Teague would ever even be able to compete for one. 
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 17, 2018, 06:59:50 AM
Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.

This is a pretty hilarious way to phrase it man. Should we try to pry former all-star Deng from the Lakers. Heck former all-star Roy Hibbert is only 1 year older than Teague. Funny phrasing aside, Teague is not a quality starting point guard at this point. I really don't think you can win a championship with him starting at point guard, and you obviously can with Irving because it has happened.

 While KAT has potential you are definitely overselling his defense. He has been bad throughout his career and I believe Butler has even frustrated by his work ethic. I don't know why we would give up our championship opportunity this year when it is not clear if a team of Tatum, Towns, Horford, Hayward and Teague would ever even be able to compete for one.
come on you didn't even bold the full sentence. Talk about taking things out of context and running with nonsense.  Par for the course unfortunately.

Towns had the best DRTG on the Wolves and they were 13.4 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the bench. Those are the actual numbers.  They are also a lot better than Irving who is a downright awful defender which was the point I was making. Towns is a better defender than Irving and he was also a better offensive player.  That means Towns is better than Irving.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: The Oracle on August 17, 2018, 07:58:06 AM
Towns is an absolute abomination defensively, period end of story.  He is probably the single most exploitable big man in the entire NBA that is getting significant minutes.  He can't defend the perimeter at all.  He can't defend the pick and roll.  He has extremely slow feet and is constantly out of position.  It is unfathomable for someone to argue otherwise.

He did not have the best defensive rating on the Wolves unless you are looking at that garbage stat on BBREF, Jimmy Butler led them at 105.1 per 100 possessions. 

The reason Towns on/off #'s are so good is because their bench was awful.  Towns numbers when not on the floor with Butler are equally awful defensively.

Just LOL at trading Irving and Brown for Towns and Teague!  Trying to win championships in this league with a Center that is as easily exploitable as Towns is next to impossible.   
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on August 17, 2018, 09:25:15 AM
The exaggeration on this forum is a bit too much. Neither Towns nor Irving are "abominations" defensively. That's narrative based, not stats or eye-test based.

Towns' weakness is probably exploited more because he's a big man. In one sense, that makes him a "worse" defender. What I like about Irving is that, when it matters, he definitely knows how to pick his spots defensively. He made Curry work in the finals when he played for Cleveland, including a key block late in one game. And remember the Rockets game last year? That game started to turn on multiple defensive plays that Irving made. Towns hasn't proven yet that he can rise to that level. In fact, he was outplayed on both ends of the court by Capella in the playoffs.

Neither are high level defenders, but neither are terrible. They aren't Jamal Crawford, or Isaiah Thomas, or Deangelo Russell, or Nick Young, or CJ McCullom, or Greg Monroe, or Ryan Anderson, or Frank Kaminsky, or Jabari Parker.

I still don't think, given Irving's track record of high level basketball against the best players in the most critical situations, that you could say Towns is better (although he might prove to be). I still think Irving has another level to go to as a basketball player.

Towns' upward trajectory was plateaued the last few seasons. His efficiency has risen, but he defense has stayed relatively the same, he hasn't improved as a playmaker for others, and he hasn't improved his intangibles. He still could get better, and it's reasonable to think he will, but it's also possible that he never gets better. It's also possible this is who is he is. IF (big if) this is who he is, I think one could argue that Brown is a better asset than Towns.

That's the reason I suggested you could argue the Wolves get the best two players in the trade Moranis proposed earlier.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Vermont Green on August 17, 2018, 10:50:13 AM
I love Kyrie but there is risk that he will leave and there is also injury risk for his knee that just had screws taken out of it.  Only for these reasons would I consider a trade based around Kyrie and Towns.  Not sure a good trade could be constructed but I would be OK with going down that path.

I have no interest in Teague and less than no interest if getting Teague involved trading Brown.  I see Brown as one of the most promising young players in the league.  I see Teague as an aging veteran who was never better than average anyway.  Not sure Teague is better than Rozier and certainly not for the money ($19M).
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on August 17, 2018, 11:00:33 AM
PURE HOGWASH
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: celticsclay on August 17, 2018, 02:16:32 PM
Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.

This is a pretty hilarious way to phrase it man. Should we try to pry former all-star Deng from the Lakers. Heck former all-star Roy Hibbert is only 1 year older than Teague. Funny phrasing aside, Teague is not a quality starting point guard at this point. I really don't think you can win a championship with him starting at point guard, and you obviously can with Irving because it has happened.

 While KAT has potential you are definitely overselling his defense. He has been bad throughout his career and I believe Butler has even frustrated by his work ethic. I don't know why we would give up our championship opportunity this year when it is not clear if a team of Tatum, Towns, Horford, Hayward and Teague would ever even be able to compete for one.
come on you didn't even bold the full sentence. Talk about taking things out of context and running with nonsense.  Par for the course unfortunately.

Towns had the best DRTG on the Wolves and they were 13.4 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the bench. Those are the actual numbers.  They are also a lot better than Irving who is a downright awful defender which was the point I was making. Towns is a better defender than Irving and he was also a better offensive player.  That means Towns is better than Irving.

Own what you write you why you write the words you do. On a forum it is all we have. You put the phrase in "former all-star" to build the case of how good a player Teague is. I pointed out that this is a silly thing to do because it was in the 2014-2015 season (and a selection based on team success). You go back one year earlier and you have Noah, Hibbert, Joe Johnson and Tony Parker in the game and I doubt you would be saying "former all-star" when discussing picking up those guys.

Teague is a bottom 10 starting point guard at best, and probably be a worse option for starting than rozier. You can window dress his stats or all-star appearance from 3 years ago, but he is not a very good player. 
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: tankcity! on August 17, 2018, 03:01:18 PM
First I want to say, I told everyone about Jaylen Brown. Nailed that pick. Going to pat myself on the shoulder for that one. Also told everyone about Rozier, including JPotter, AKA J potty mouth.

As for Moranis, he's using stats to make a lame argument about Kats defense....I mean he clearly doesn't watch the playoffs when Capela destroyed him that series. Kat needs to lose weight to become good at defense. He's got some fat on him. This is what you call scouting. If everyone just made assumptions based on metrics and numbers, then there wouldn't be GM's like Danny Ainge ripping people off on trades like he did with Jordan Crawford who had good stats in Stevens systems.

Stats are overrated nowadays. They were underrated in the 90s and early 2000s. Now people just ignore scouting. This is why a guy like Moranis is so off on Philly's roster, or how off he was on Jaylen Brown.

You guys should look up what Moranis used to say about Noel and Okafor. He used to use stats as well. This is why I no longer post on this forum anymore. I'm tired of being right. It's like talking to a child.

Anyways have a great weekend. Go Celtics. After the Nets trade, most of us on this forum knew the Celtics would be fine. Be glad to be where we are and continue to ignore the trolls!
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: tankcity! on August 17, 2018, 03:03:54 PM
Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

On the same reasoning you might use for Towns over Brown, I think you should use for Irving over Towns. Towns no-showed in the playoffs, whereas Irving hit one of the biggest shots in finals history. Irving is the more proven player.

I don't necessarily think Brown is better than Towns (edit: wrong order), but I do think you could argue that high level two-way wings are more valuable than offensive-minded, defensive sivs big men.

On top of that, if you compare their last post-seasons, you could argue Brown was better. Brown's per 36 numbers were 20, 5, and 2 on 47/39/64 % shooting clips. Towns averaged 16, 14 and 2 on 47/27/74 shooting clips. The Wolves offrating was 106 and defrating was 112 with Towns on the floor. The Celtics offrating was 108 and defrathingwas 108 with Brown on the floor.

Lol! I love how Moranis just glosses over this part. So hilarious. Towns may be better, but he's one of the most overrated players in the league. He was better a rookie imo when he was more mobile. He has lost speed. Needs to lose the fat
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: kraidstar on August 17, 2018, 03:29:00 PM
An NBA insider on the radio was saying Towns "doesn't have a great work ethic defensively and is more about stats," and "is not the high character guy that people think."

The former is not hard to believe, watching him play.

Most overrated player in the league. He will NEVER be the centerpiece of a title team.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: tazzmaniac on August 17, 2018, 04:09:47 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk. 
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: celticsclay on August 17, 2018, 04:13:33 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

You know that context matters right? Many people have said that if healthy Embiid is a more complete player than cause embiid plays defense (which funny enough is still what he is getting slammed for here). The issue was his health and durability. Has he answered that question after a season with no leg or back issues, maybe, but that was the whole point of the debate. I also don't believe you really forgot that either, so this is a pretty weak and hollow self-congratulatory post you made.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 17, 2018, 04:20:25 PM
Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.

This is a pretty hilarious way to phrase it man. Should we try to pry former all-star Deng from the Lakers. Heck former all-star Roy Hibbert is only 1 year older than Teague. Funny phrasing aside, Teague is not a quality starting point guard at this point. I really don't think you can win a championship with him starting at point guard, and you obviously can with Irving because it has happened.

 While KAT has potential you are definitely overselling his defense. He has been bad throughout his career and I believe Butler has even frustrated by his work ethic. I don't know why we would give up our championship opportunity this year when it is not clear if a team of Tatum, Towns, Horford, Hayward and Teague would ever even be able to compete for one.
come on you didn't even bold the full sentence. Talk about taking things out of context and running with nonsense.  Par for the course unfortunately.

Towns had the best DRTG on the Wolves and they were 13.4 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the bench. Those are the actual numbers.  They are also a lot better than Irving who is a downright awful defender which was the point I was making. Towns is a better defender than Irving and he was also a better offensive player.  That means Towns is better than Irving.

Own what you write you why you write the words you do. On a forum it is all we have. You put the phrase in "former all-star" to build the case of how good a player Teague is. I pointed out that this is a silly thing to do because it was in the 2014-2015 season (and a selection based on team success). You go back one year earlier and you have Noah, Hibbert, Joe Johnson and Tony Parker in the game and I doubt you would be saying "former all-star" when discussing picking up those guys.

Teague is a bottom 10 starting point guard at best, and probably be a worse option for starting than rozier. You can window dress his stats or all-star appearance from 3 years ago, but he is not a very good player.
No, my point was that he was still in his prime and has basically been performing the same for the last 6 years (one of which was an all star appearance).  That is what I wrote.  You took the first few words of a post and went to nonsensical levels.  Again pretty typical from you, especially where I'm concerned because you always do that crap.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 17, 2018, 04:21:36 PM
Gauging interest, what about a trade to the Wolves. 

Irving and Brown and for Teague and Towns.  That I think would be an interesting trade for both teams.  Boston gets a decent replacement for Irving in Teague and gets the big man the team is missing in Towns.  The Wolves then get to build around Irving and Butler, with Brown as a potential 3rd, which also allows them to move on from Wiggins.  Obviously the Wolves only do that if they have some sort of assurance from both Irving and Butler, but I do think that would be an interesting trade for both teams.

You could argue Minny gets the best two players in that trade.
No you couldn't.  Towns is clearly better than Brown and it isn't close.  I think you could reasonably argue Towns is better than Irving.  Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

On the same reasoning you might use for Towns over Brown, I think you should use for Irving over Towns. Towns no-showed in the playoffs, whereas Irving hit one of the biggest shots in finals history. Irving is the more proven player.

I don't necessarily think Brown is better than Towns (edit: wrong order), but I do think you could argue that high level two-way wings are more valuable than offensive-minded, defensive sivs big men.

On top of that, if you compare their last post-seasons, you could argue Brown was better. Brown's per 36 numbers were 20, 5, and 2 on 47/39/64 % shooting clips. Towns averaged 16, 14 and 2 on 47/27/74 shooting clips. The Wolves offrating was 106 and defrating was 112 with Towns on the floor. The Celtics offrating was 108 and defrathingwas 108 with Brown on the floor.

Lol! I love how Moranis just glosses over this part. So hilarious. Towns may be better, but he's one of the most overrated players in the league. He was better a rookie imo when he was more mobile. He has lost speed. Needs to lose the fat
Except I didn't.  I actually responded to that post.  Thanks for playing.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: celticsclay on August 17, 2018, 04:53:51 PM
Frankly, right now Teague might be better than Brown, though that is obviously a borrowed time thing.

Oh wow. The hottest of takes right there.
Jeff Teague is a 30 year old former all star still very much in the prime of his career.  Over the last 6 seasons he has averaged basically 15 ppg and 7 apg (with over 2.5 rpg). 

Brown is definitely trending upward and at some point, maybe even this year, will almost certainly pass Teague up (if he hasn't already), but this board has a nasty habit of pretending young players have already become the players we all hope they will become.

This is a pretty hilarious way to phrase it man. Should we try to pry former all-star Deng from the Lakers. Heck former all-star Roy Hibbert is only 1 year older than Teague. Funny phrasing aside, Teague is not a quality starting point guard at this point. I really don't think you can win a championship with him starting at point guard, and you obviously can with Irving because it has happened.

 While KAT has potential you are definitely overselling his defense. He has been bad throughout his career and I believe Butler has even frustrated by his work ethic. I don't know why we would give up our championship opportunity this year when it is not clear if a team of Tatum, Towns, Horford, Hayward and Teague would ever even be able to compete for one.
come on you didn't even bold the full sentence. Talk about taking things out of context and running with nonsense.  Par for the course unfortunately.

Towns had the best DRTG on the Wolves and they were 13.4 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the bench. Those are the actual numbers.  They are also a lot better than Irving who is a downright awful defender which was the point I was making. Towns is a better defender than Irving and he was also a better offensive player.  That means Towns is better than Irving.

Own what you write you why you write the words you do. On a forum it is all we have. You put the phrase in "former all-star" to build the case of how good a player Teague is. I pointed out that this is a silly thing to do because it was in the 2014-2015 season (and a selection based on team success). You go back one year earlier and you have Noah, Hibbert, Joe Johnson and Tony Parker in the game and I doubt you would be saying "former all-star" when discussing picking up those guys.

Teague is a bottom 10 starting point guard at best, and probably be a worse option for starting than rozier. You can window dress his stats or all-star appearance from 3 years ago, but he is not a very good player.
No, my point was that he was still in his prime and has basically been performing the same for the last 6 years (one of which was an all star appearance).  That is what I wrote.  You took the first few words of a post and went to nonsensical levels.  Again pretty typical from you, especially where I'm concerned because you always do that crap.

Lets try to have a little more decorum man. I honestly read it as you trying to pump up how good a player he was by mentioning a random all-star game appearance from 3-4 seasons. No need for the personal attacks.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Big333223 on August 17, 2018, 05:01:08 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

Yeah this is kind of extreme, isn't it? Towns averaged 21 and 12 last season with an eFG% of 60%, a year removed from a 25 and 12 season on 58 eFG%. Last season he made 72% of his shots inside 3 feet and over 40% from 3 on three attempts a game. He's one of the best, most versatile scorers in the NBA and last season he only took 14 shots a game because his team's offense is so screwed up.

He's not a good defender, it's true. It's also true that he's only 23 years old, the same age as Yabusele and younger than Semi Ojeleye.

Last season, I think Kyrie was better but Towns is still an All NBA caliber player and could easily be better than Kyrie this year.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: tazzmaniac on August 17, 2018, 05:05:36 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

You know that context matters right? Many people have said that if healthy Embiid is a more complete player than cause embiid plays defense (which funny enough is still what he is getting slammed for here). The issue was his health and durability. Has he answered that question after a season with no leg or back issues, maybe, but that was the whole point of the debate. I also don't believe you really forgot that either, so this is a pretty weak and hollow self-congratulatory post you made.
Saying if healthy is really a cop out.  Embiid's health is a risk but so is Towns inability/unwillingness to play good defense.  I'm also not sure Towns has the personality/drive to be a dominant player.  Embiid certainly has and he also has a very high learning aptitude.  I factored everything in and said I'd rather have Embiid even with the health risk.  As for self-congratulatory posts, I'll bow to the master of them. 

Putting that aside, the tenor on Towns has certainly changed.  No one was saying he was the most overrated player in the league.  Pretty much everyone was high on him and some said they'd take Towns over AD.   
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: nickagneta on August 17, 2018, 05:05:48 PM
Enough with the personal stuff. Keep the subject on basketball and not posters
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: celticsclay on August 17, 2018, 05:06:51 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

Yeah this is kind of extreme, isn't it? Towns averaged 21 and 12 last season with an eFG% of 60%, a year removed from a 25 and 12 season on 58 eFG%. He's one of the best, most versatile scorers in the NBA and last season he only took 14 shots a game because his team's offense is so screwed up.

He's not a good defender, it's true. It's also true that he's only 23 years old, the same age as Yabusele and younger than Semi Ojeleye.

Last season, I think Kyrie was better but Towns is still an All NBA caliber player and could easily be better than Kyrie this year.

Don't get me wrong, I think Towns is very good and still will get better. I just don't want him at the price of Irving and Brown (and most seem to agree) especially if we are only getting Teague back alongside him. i think that is why it is coming off as so negative towards Towns.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: tazzmaniac on August 17, 2018, 05:14:00 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

Yeah this is kind of extreme, isn't it? Towns averaged 21 and 12 last season with an eFG% of 60%, a year removed from a 25 and 12 season on 58 eFG%. He's one of the best, most versatile scorers in the NBA and last season he only took 14 shots a game because his team's offense is so screwed up.

He's not a good defender, it's true. It's also true that he's only 23 years old, the same age as Yabusele and younger than Semi Ojeleye.

Last season, I think Kyrie was better but Towns is still an All NBA caliber player and could easily be better than Kyrie this year.
Towns needs to show he can contribute to winning.  If Butler had missed one or two more games last season, the TWolves would have missed the playoffs yet again. 
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Big333223 on August 17, 2018, 05:15:01 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

Yeah this is kind of extreme, isn't it? Towns averaged 21 and 12 last season with an eFG% of 60%, a year removed from a 25 and 12 season on 58 eFG%. He's one of the best, most versatile scorers in the NBA and last season he only took 14 shots a game because his team's offense is so screwed up.

He's not a good defender, it's true. It's also true that he's only 23 years old, the same age as Yabusele and younger than Semi Ojeleye.

Last season, I think Kyrie was better but Towns is still an All NBA caliber player and could easily be better than Kyrie this year.

Don't get me wrong, I think Towns is very good and still will get better. I just don't want him at the price of Irving and Brown (and most seem to agree) especially if we are only getting Teague back alongside him. i think that is why it is coming off as so negative towards Towns.

I agree with that, for sure.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: celticsclay on August 17, 2018, 05:27:40 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

You know that context matters right? Many people have said that if healthy Embiid is a more complete player than cause embiid plays defense (which funny enough is still what he is getting slammed for here). The issue was his health and durability. Has he answered that question after a season with no leg or back issues, maybe, but that was the whole point of the debate. I also don't believe you really forgot that either, so this is a pretty weak and hollow self-congratulatory post you made.
Saying if healthy is really a cop out.  Embiid's health is a risk but so is Towns inability/unwillingness to play good defense.  I'm also not sure Towns has the personality/drive to be a dominant player.  Embiid certainly has and he also has a very high learning aptitude.  I factored everything in and said I'd rather have Embiid even with the health risk.  As for self-congratulatory posts, I'll bow to the master of them. 

Putting that aside, the tenor on Towns has certainly changed.  No one was saying he was the most overrated player in the league.  Pretty much everyone was high on him and some said they'd take Towns over AD.

I can't speak for everyone, but I am definitely less high on Towns than I was a year ago. I thought he would take a bigger leap this past offseason with Butler there. Instead it seems like no concerns have emerged about his motor and effort which I didn't think were known before.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: tazzmaniac on August 17, 2018, 05:41:47 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

Yeah this is kind of extreme, isn't it? Towns averaged 21 and 12 last season with an eFG% of 60%, a year removed from a 25 and 12 season on 58 eFG%. He's one of the best, most versatile scorers in the NBA and last season he only took 14 shots a game because his team's offense is so screwed up.

He's not a good defender, it's true. It's also true that he's only 23 years old, the same age as Yabusele and younger than Semi Ojeleye.

Last season, I think Kyrie was better but Towns is still an All NBA caliber player and could easily be better than Kyrie this year.

Don't get me wrong, I think Towns is very good and still will get better. I just don't want him at the price of Irving and Brown (and most seem to agree) especially if we are only getting Teague back alongside him. i think that is why it is coming off as so negative towards Towns.
The point of this thread was based on Ainge thinking Irving was leaving after this season.  So the price of Towns would be Brown, Irving (1 season) and having Teague on the books for 2 seasons for 19M each.   Losing Irving (1 season) wouldn't really matter unless you think we've got a good shot at the championship this season.  Teague's salary wouldn't really matter since we're well over the cap.  He could be traded or stretched next offseason. 
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Csfan1984 on August 17, 2018, 05:46:24 PM
Watching college players team up more and more I'm surprised the NBA has been able to keep guys that are good friends apart so long. And I suppose working/playing with friends or in a good family city is more important than getting bounced by the Warriors these days.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: celticsclay on August 17, 2018, 06:30:11 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

Yeah this is kind of extreme, isn't it? Towns averaged 21 and 12 last season with an eFG% of 60%, a year removed from a 25 and 12 season on 58 eFG%. He's one of the best, most versatile scorers in the NBA and last season he only took 14 shots a game because his team's offense is so screwed up.

He's not a good defender, it's true. It's also true that he's only 23 years old, the same age as Yabusele and younger than Semi Ojeleye.

Last season, I think Kyrie was better but Towns is still an All NBA caliber player and could easily be better than Kyrie this year.

Don't get me wrong, I think Towns is very good and still will get better. I just don't want him at the price of Irving and Brown (and most seem to agree) especially if we are only getting Teague back alongside him. i think that is why it is coming off as so negative towards Towns.
The point of this thread was based on Ainge thinking Irving was leaving after this season.  So the price of Towns would be Brown, Irving (1 season) and having Teague on the books for 2 seasons for 19M each.   Losing Irving (1 season) wouldn't really matter unless you think we've got a good shot at the championship this season.  Teague's salary wouldn't really matter since we're well over the cap.  He could be traded or stretched next offseason.

We have the second or third best title odds of any team in the league depending where you look. I don't know how to quantify a 'good shot" but we are being given a 15% chance to win it all. I don't take punting that chance to zero with teague as insignificant. We have a legit chance this year of winning a championship. I don't think we should give that up for just about anything personally.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: tazzmaniac on August 17, 2018, 06:44:52 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

Yeah this is kind of extreme, isn't it? Towns averaged 21 and 12 last season with an eFG% of 60%, a year removed from a 25 and 12 season on 58 eFG%. He's one of the best, most versatile scorers in the NBA and last season he only took 14 shots a game because his team's offense is so screwed up.

He's not a good defender, it's true. It's also true that he's only 23 years old, the same age as Yabusele and younger than Semi Ojeleye.

Last season, I think Kyrie was better but Towns is still an All NBA caliber player and could easily be better than Kyrie this year.

Don't get me wrong, I think Towns is very good and still will get better. I just don't want him at the price of Irving and Brown (and most seem to agree) especially if we are only getting Teague back alongside him. i think that is why it is coming off as so negative towards Towns.
The point of this thread was based on Ainge thinking Irving was leaving after this season.  So the price of Towns would be Brown, Irving (1 season) and having Teague on the books for 2 seasons for 19M each.   Losing Irving (1 season) wouldn't really matter unless you think we've got a good shot at the championship this season.  Teague's salary wouldn't really matter since we're well over the cap.  He could be traded or stretched next offseason.

We have the second or third best title odds of any team in the league depending where you look. I don't know how to quantify a 'good shot" but we are being given a 15% chance to win it all. I don't take punting that chance to zero with teague as insignificant. We have a legit chance this year of winning a championship. I don't think we should give that up for just about anything personally.
I'm not that high on Towns so I'd agree.  However if you are high on Towns and not that high on Brown, I think it is an easy trade to make. 
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: celticsclay on August 17, 2018, 08:07:14 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

Yeah this is kind of extreme, isn't it? Towns averaged 21 and 12 last season with an eFG% of 60%, a year removed from a 25 and 12 season on 58 eFG%. He's one of the best, most versatile scorers in the NBA and last season he only took 14 shots a game because his team's offense is so screwed up.

He's not a good defender, it's true. It's also true that he's only 23 years old, the same age as Yabusele and younger than Semi Ojeleye.

Last season, I think Kyrie was better but Towns is still an All NBA caliber player and could easily be better than Kyrie this year.

Don't get me wrong, I think Towns is very good and still will get better. I just don't want him at the price of Irving and Brown (and most seem to agree) especially if we are only getting Teague back alongside him. i think that is why it is coming off as so negative towards Towns.
The point of this thread was based on Ainge thinking Irving was leaving after this season.  So the price of Towns would be Brown, Irving (1 season) and having Teague on the books for 2 seasons for 19M each.   Losing Irving (1 season) wouldn't really matter unless you think we've got a good shot at the championship this season.  Teague's salary wouldn't really matter since we're well over the cap.  He could be traded or stretched next offseason.

We have the second or third best title odds of any team in the league depending where you look. I don't know how to quantify a 'good shot" but we are being given a 15% chance to win it all. I don't take punting that chance to zero with teague as insignificant. We have a legit chance this year of winning a championship. I don't think we should give that up for just about anything personally.
I'm not that high on Towns so I'd agree.  However if you are high on Towns and not that high on Brown, I think it is an easy trade to make.

Isn't it pretty hard to not be high on Brown given his age and what we just saw in the playoffs?
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 17, 2018, 09:16:16 PM
Funny how the tide has turned on Towns on here.  He walked on water a year ago.  When I said I'd take Embiid over Towns, I was told that was crazy talk.

Yeah this is kind of extreme, isn't it? Towns averaged 21 and 12 last season with an eFG% of 60%, a year removed from a 25 and 12 season on 58 eFG%. He's one of the best, most versatile scorers in the NBA and last season he only took 14 shots a game because his team's offense is so screwed up.

He's not a good defender, it's true. It's also true that he's only 23 years old, the same age as Yabusele and younger than Semi Ojeleye.

Last season, I think Kyrie was better but Towns is still an All NBA caliber player and could easily be better than Kyrie this year.

Don't get me wrong, I think Towns is very good and still will get better. I just don't want him at the price of Irving and Brown (and most seem to agree) especially if we are only getting Teague back alongside him. i think that is why it is coming off as so negative towards Towns.
The point of this thread was based on Ainge thinking Irving was leaving after this season.  So the price of Towns would be Brown, Irving (1 season) and having Teague on the books for 2 seasons for 19M each.   Losing Irving (1 season) wouldn't really matter unless you think we've got a good shot at the championship this season.  Teague's salary wouldn't really matter since we're well over the cap.  He could be traded or stretched next offseason.

We have the second or third best title odds of any team in the league depending where you look. I don't know how to quantify a 'good shot" but we are being given a 15% chance to win it all. I don't take punting that chance to zero with teague as insignificant. We have a legit chance this year of winning a championship. I don't think we should give that up for just about anything personally.
I'm not that high on Towns so I'd agree.  However if you are high on Towns and not that high on Brown, I think it is an easy trade to make.
I like Brown a lot, but Towns was one of the 15 best players in the NBA last year (by most metrics including his 3rd Team All NBA) in just his 3rd year in the league, where he had one of the best and most efficient overall shooting season for a big man ever (and was pretty darn good historically for all players).  I think that is about the best you can expect from Brown if he even reaches his peak (that is pretty much where Pierce was most of his career, which seems to be Brown's best case).  Brown is also much more repetitive on the Celtics than Towns is.  The C's have Hayward, Tatum, and Smart all locked in for at least 3 seasons.  There is a much greater need for a big man than a wing. 
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on August 29, 2018, 09:24:00 AM
Rather than starting a new post, I thought I'd share this here (hopefully it hasn't been shared elsewhere.

Woj knows stuff. He's plugged in. This is further proof that this was a summer narrative to get clicks, but had no basis in the real NBA world.

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2018/08/27/adrian-wojnarowski-boston-celtics-over-field-kyrie-irving/
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: celticsclay on August 29, 2018, 12:44:58 PM
Rather than starting a new post, I thought I'd share this here (hopefully it hasn't been shared elsewhere.

Woj knows stuff. He's plugged in. This is further proof that this was a summer narrative to get clicks, but had no basis in the real NBA world.

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2018/08/27/adrian-wojnarowski-boston-celtics-over-field-kyrie-irving/

The only scenario that really scares me is if durant, irving and butler all decided to go to new york. Otherwise i see him staying here. i don't think he wants his only championship to be with Lebron and, unless a 3 star superteam forms, we are his best chance at doing so.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on August 29, 2018, 01:47:36 PM
Rather than starting a new post, I thought I'd share this here (hopefully it hasn't been shared elsewhere.

Woj knows stuff. He's plugged in. This is further proof that this was a summer narrative to get clicks, but had no basis in the real NBA world.

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2018/08/27/adrian-wojnarowski-boston-celtics-over-field-kyrie-irving/

The only scenario that really scares me is if durant, irving and butler all decided to go to new york. Otherwise i see him staying here. i don't think he wants his only championship to be with Lebron and, unless a 3 star superteam forms, we are his best chance at doing so.

Good thing is that the Knicks cannot possibly clear enough space for 3 max contracts, especially if they stretch Noah as has been reported is possible.

The Nets are a different story. If they traded Crabbe and Harris, they'd have pretty close to enough space. Crabbe and Harris are much more tradeable players than Noah, Lee, Hardaway Jr., and Baker.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 29, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
Rather than starting a new post, I thought I'd share this here (hopefully it hasn't been shared elsewhere.

Woj knows stuff. He's plugged in. This is further proof that this was a summer narrative to get clicks, but had no basis in the real NBA world.

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2018/08/27/adrian-wojnarowski-boston-celtics-over-field-kyrie-irving/

The only scenario that really scares me is if durant, irving and butler all decided to go to new york. Otherwise i see him staying here. i don't think he wants his only championship to be with Lebron and, unless a 3 star superteam forms, we are his best chance at doing so.

Good thing is that the Knicks cannot possibly clear enough space for 3 max contracts, especially if they stretch Noah as has been reported is possible.

The Nets are a different story. If they traded Crabbe and Harris, they'd have pretty close to enough space. Crabbe and Harris are much more tradeable players than Noah, Lee, Hardaway Jr., and Baker.
clay said New York, he didn't say the Knicks.  Last time I checked Brooklyn was in New York.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: celticsclay on August 29, 2018, 03:22:10 PM
Rather than starting a new post, I thought I'd share this here (hopefully it hasn't been shared elsewhere.

Woj knows stuff. He's plugged in. This is further proof that this was a summer narrative to get clicks, but had no basis in the real NBA world.

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2018/08/27/adrian-wojnarowski-boston-celtics-over-field-kyrie-irving/

The only scenario that really scares me is if durant, irving and butler all decided to go to new york. Otherwise i see him staying here. i don't think he wants his only championship to be with Lebron and, unless a 3 star superteam forms, we are his best chance at doing so.

Good thing is that the Knicks cannot possibly clear enough space for 3 max contracts, especially if they stretch Noah as has been reported is possible.

The Nets are a different story. If they traded Crabbe and Harris, they'd have pretty close to enough space. Crabbe and Harris are much more tradeable players than Noah, Lee, Hardaway Jr., and Baker.
clay said New York, he didn't say the Knicks.  Last time I checked Brooklyn was in New York.

I was thinking of Brooklyn or the Knicks to be honest. I think it would be pretty interesting and probably good for basketball to have Brooklyn immediately vault into relevancy after a half decade of complete irrelevance (although obviously i don't want that happening at the expense of us losing kyrie
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Celtics4ever on August 29, 2018, 06:14:04 PM
This is all media driven nonsense....
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Jon on August 29, 2018, 06:47:59 PM
This just seems so preposterous to me. Jimmy Butler is good, but if he was the type of star that could unite with Kyrie to challenge the Warriors, his Bulls and Wolves teams would have been better.

No way that Irving leaves Hayward, Horford, Tatum, and Brown to team up with a second tier star at best.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 29, 2018, 09:12:00 PM
This just seems so preposterous to me. Jimmy Butler is good, but if he was the type of star that could unite with Kyrie to challenge the Warriors, his Bulls and Wolves teams would have been better.

No way that Irving leaves Hayward, Horford, Tatum, and Brown to team up with a second tier star at best.
right now Butler is better than all of those guys and frankly if the Zinger gets healthy he might be also. 
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: GreenEnvy on August 29, 2018, 09:21:31 PM
This just seems so preposterous to me. Jimmy Butler is good, but if he was the type of star that could unite with Kyrie to challenge the Warriors, his Bulls and Wolves teams would have been better.

No way that Irving leaves Hayward, Horford, Tatum, and Brown to team up with a second tier star at best.
right now Butler is better than all of those guys and frankly if the Zinger gets healthy he might be also.

Wrong, as usual.

Brown and Tatum have to be considered better prospects than KP, Hayward and Horford can both carry a team more than Butler can.

Butler is very overrated, a beta.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: nickagneta on August 29, 2018, 09:44:49 PM
I think Butler is every bit as great a player as Kyrie. Not top 5 player great but definitely top 12 or so. He is one of the better two way players in the game bringing it on both ends of the court. Some of us might be looking through very green tinted glasses.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: gouki88 on August 29, 2018, 09:46:42 PM
This just seems so preposterous to me. Jimmy Butler is good, but if he was the type of star that could unite with Kyrie to challenge the Warriors, his Bulls and Wolves teams would have been better.

No way that Irving leaves Hayward, Horford, Tatum, and Brown to team up with a second tier star at best.
right now Butler is better than all of those guys and frankly if the Zinger gets healthy he might be also.

Wrong, as usual.

Brown and Tatum have to be considered better prospects than KP, Hayward and Horford can both carry a team more than Butler can.

Butler is very overrated, a beta.
Agree entirely GreenEnvy
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: green_bballers13 on August 30, 2018, 03:28:35 AM
NYK is a disaster. Starts with Dolan, and works its way down. BOS has a much healthier organization. Kyrie's people must know this.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 30, 2018, 06:47:11 AM
This just seems so preposterous to me. Jimmy Butler is good, but if he was the type of star that could unite with Kyrie to challenge the Warriors, his Bulls and Wolves teams would have been better.

No way that Irving leaves Hayward, Horford, Tatum, and Brown to team up with a second tier star at best.
right now Butler is better than all of those guys and frankly if the Zinger gets healthy he might be also.

Wrong, as usual.

Brown and Tatum have to be considered better prospects than KP, Hayward and Horford can both carry a team more than Butler can.

Butler is very overrated, a beta.
I said right now. Not some future possible peak. Right now Butler is the better player
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Androslav on August 30, 2018, 07:10:30 AM
This just seems so preposterous to me. Jimmy Butler is good, but if he was the type of star that could unite with Kyrie to challenge the Warriors, his Bulls and Wolves teams would have been better.

No way that Irving leaves Hayward, Horford, Tatum, and Brown to team up with a second tier star at best.
right now Butler is better than all of those guys and frankly if the Zinger gets healthy he might be also.

Wrong, as usual.

Brown and Tatum have to be considered better prospects than KP, Hayward and Horford can both carry a team more than Butler can.

Butler is very overrated, a beta.
I said right now. Not some future possible peak. Right now Butler is the better player
That remains to be seen.
Butler's health is a big question, as he wasn't the same player after the mid-season injury.
Also worth mentioning, Thibs stars have "expiry date" before age 29.
Noah, Deng, Rose all succumbed by then due to his exploitations.
Jimmy will now enter his age 29 season, and it doesn't seem like Thibs will change his approach, while Jimmy will still play physical basketball.

I hope Jimmy does well, but Brown and Tatum are much safer bets at the moment. Younger, durable, more scalable (able to play with other great players without losing their production, efficiency or causing chemistry issues), they also play better off the ball as they can stroke 3's all day long.

God, please don't let Thibs crush KAT, it is like stomping a nice fragrant flower or ants.
Nothing useful, just a shame.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Vermont Green on August 30, 2018, 08:37:21 AM
I am not that high on Butler.  He is a nice player.  If he and Kyrie team up in NY, it would be a very good start to a very good team but I don't see where he makes the Celtics better.  Is the idea to start him in place of Brown?  He is more experienced and overall probably better and more consistent for now but for how long?

I don't think we have a place for Butler if that is the idea here.  If we do any trade with any of our young prospects, it needs to be for a young big, not a veteran wing.

If the idea is that Butler is so good that he will draw Kyrie away, I don't buy that either.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Jon on August 30, 2018, 09:16:16 AM
This just seems so preposterous to me. Jimmy Butler is good, but if he was the type of star that could unite with Kyrie to challenge the Warriors, his Bulls and Wolves teams would have been better.

No way that Irving leaves Hayward, Horford, Tatum, and Brown to team up with a second tier star at best.
right now Butler is better than all of those guys and frankly if the Zinger gets healthy he might be also.

Wrong, as usual.

Brown and Tatum have to be considered better prospects than KP, Hayward and Horford can both carry a team more than Butler can.

Butler is very overrated, a beta.
I said right now. Not some future possible peak. Right now Butler is the better player
That remains to be seen.
Butler's health is a big question, as he wasn't the same player after the mid-season injury.
Also worth mentioning, Thibs stars have "expiry date" before age 29.
Noah, Deng, Rose all succumbed by then due to his exploitations.
Jimmy will now enter his age 29 season, and it doesn't seem like Thibs will change his approach, while Jimmy will still play physical basketball.

I hope Jimmy does well, but Brown and Tatum are much safer bets at the moment. Younger, durable, more scalable (able to play with other great players without losing their production, efficiency or causing chemistry issues), they also play better off the ball as they can stroke 3's all day long.

God, please don't let Thibs crush KAT, it is like stomping a nice fragrant flower or ants.
Nothing useful, just a shame.

With my original comment I was comparing Butler to Horford, Hayward, Tatum, and Brown collectively. One could say that Butler is better than any of that group (though I think most would agree Tatum has a higher ceiling), but if Kyrie leaves he’s betting that he and Butler can put a lineup around them good enough to be better than what he has now on the Celtics. And that’s a bad bet, especially since Kyrie, LeBron, and Love were barely enough to get by the Warriors once. And Butler isn’t in the same universe as LeBron.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: Moranis on August 30, 2018, 09:47:12 AM
This just seems so preposterous to me. Jimmy Butler is good, but if he was the type of star that could unite with Kyrie to challenge the Warriors, his Bulls and Wolves teams would have been better.

No way that Irving leaves Hayward, Horford, Tatum, and Brown to team up with a second tier star at best.
right now Butler is better than all of those guys and frankly if the Zinger gets healthy he might be also.

Wrong, as usual.

Brown and Tatum have to be considered better prospects than KP, Hayward and Horford can both carry a team more than Butler can.

Butler is very overrated, a beta.
I said right now. Not some future possible peak. Right now Butler is the better player
That remains to be seen.
Butler's health is a big question, as he wasn't the same player after the mid-season injury.
Also worth mentioning, Thibs stars have "expiry date" before age 29.
Noah, Deng, Rose all succumbed by then due to his exploitations.
Jimmy will now enter his age 29 season, and it doesn't seem like Thibs will change his approach, while Jimmy will still play physical basketball.

I hope Jimmy does well, but Brown and Tatum are much safer bets at the moment. Younger, durable, more scalable (able to play with other great players without losing their production, efficiency or causing chemistry issues), they also play better off the ball as they can stroke 3's all day long.

God, please don't let Thibs crush KAT, it is like stomping a nice fragrant flower or ants.
Nothing useful, just a shame.

With my original comment I was comparing Butler to Horford, Hayward, Tatum, and Brown collectively. One could say that Butler is better than any of that group (though I think most would agree Tatum has a higher ceiling), but if Kyrie leaves he’s betting that he and Butler can put a lineup around them good enough to be better than what he has now on the Celtics. And that’s a bad bet, especially since Kyrie, LeBron, and Love were barely enough to get by the Warriors once. And Butler isn’t in the same universe as LeBron.
if it is the Knicks, then they would also have Porzingis and probably Knox, Frankie N., and their high lottery pick from this year (though they may have to move some of the young players to clear the cap room).  If it is the Nets then they could also be joining Durant.  Any of those teams in those situations could be better positioned to win a title over the next couple of seasons. 
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on August 30, 2018, 10:08:58 AM
This just seems so preposterous to me. Jimmy Butler is good, but if he was the type of star that could unite with Kyrie to challenge the Warriors, his Bulls and Wolves teams would have been better.

No way that Irving leaves Hayward, Horford, Tatum, and Brown to team up with a second tier star at best.
right now Butler is better than all of those guys and frankly if the Zinger gets healthy he might be also.

Wrong, as usual.

Brown and Tatum have to be considered better prospects than KP, Hayward and Horford can both carry a team more than Butler can.

Butler is very overrated, a beta.
I said right now. Not some future possible peak. Right now Butler is the better player
That remains to be seen.
Butler's health is a big question, as he wasn't the same player after the mid-season injury.
Also worth mentioning, Thibs stars have "expiry date" before age 29.
Noah, Deng, Rose all succumbed by then due to his exploitations.
Jimmy will now enter his age 29 season, and it doesn't seem like Thibs will change his approach, while Jimmy will still play physical basketball.

I hope Jimmy does well, but Brown and Tatum are much safer bets at the moment. Younger, durable, more scalable (able to play with other great players without losing their production, efficiency or causing chemistry issues), they also play better off the ball as they can stroke 3's all day long.

God, please don't let Thibs crush KAT, it is like stomping a nice fragrant flower or ants.
Nothing useful, just a shame.

With my original comment I was comparing Butler to Horford, Hayward, Tatum, and Brown collectively. One could say that Butler is better than any of that group (though I think most would agree Tatum has a higher ceiling), but if Kyrie leaves he’s betting that he and Butler can put a lineup around them good enough to be better than what he has now on the Celtics. And that’s a bad bet, especially since Kyrie, LeBron, and Love were barely enough to get by the Warriors once. And Butler isn’t in the same universe as LeBron.
if it is the Knicks, then they would also have Porzingis and probably Knox, Frankie N., and their high lottery pick from this year (though they may have to move some of the young players to clear the cap room).  If it is the Nets then they could also be joining Durant.  Any of those teams in those situations could be better positioned to win a title over the next couple of seasons.

If the Knicks stretch Noah, they will not have enough money for two max guys, even if they can trade Hardaway, Lee, Baker, and one of their young guys.

Knox, Robinson, and Frankie all look like NBA players, but I'm not sure they are anywhere near upper-level talent. They're nice pieces, but I don't think any of them are all-stars.

On top of that, there are legit concerns about Zinger's long-term health. Is he a player you want to hitch your wagon to?

The Nets thing may be different. Eventually, I think the Nets are going to be good and going to be a FA destination. That may happen next off-season or in the future, but it will happen.
Title: Re: Butler/Irving Chatter is "Substantial"
Post by: hpantazo on August 30, 2018, 10:14:48 AM
I think Kyrie stays in Boston, but this non-committal stance at the moment goes both ways imo.

Do the Celtics want to give him a max deal if his knee issue flares up again this season and he misses the playoffs yet again? Of if he shows that he's a great player but not a leader of a legit contender during our upcoming playoff run? Ainge could decide its best to keep Rozier, let Kyrie walk, and use that money elsewhere if thats the case.

Kyrie may be hesitant to publicly commit because Ainge may have already told him you gotta prove it to us that you are THE guy for the future for this team. You missed the playoffs which has happened before with you, we gotta see you do it.