Greatest power forwards of all time

[GreenEnvy]

I think KG is an all-time elite defender, with the likes of Hakeem and Russell. There is nothing he couldn't do. Athletic, fast, strong, vocal.

On offense, he was extremely versatile, and one of the best passing bigs of all time. He could post-up with ease because of his length, or take it outside with an excellent jumper with range.

The only PF I would rate ahead of him is Duncan, and only because 4 rings can't be ignored. However, one player came into a great situation (with a great mentor and coach) while the other fell into a mess of an organization (revolving door of coaches and lack of quality players).

well i guess mchales rings shouldnt be ignore

and i have a different theory about young kg.
he pay the price of being yound and stat worker
he learned he growth and hes great
duncan came to the league being a man in the mission and with
the admiral his life was easier

I'd put McHale third, no doubt.

I don't think KG was a stat hound, as he could have dominated the ball and went into the upper 20's with his scoring average. He stayed within the team concept even though the players around him were usually trash. He personally made players like Wally an All-Star when he could have racked up even more points.

His numbers were mind-boggling almost by accident. He could have done even more if he was a stat-hound.

[BballTim]

I'm 25 so I admit I only saw McHale on the tail end of his career but was he really known as a "quarterback" of the defense? When I think of KG I think of defense first. When I think of McHale I think of post moves first. I just always pictured Garnett as really elevating the entire teams defense and having a bigger overall impact in that sense where I picture McHale as more of a shutdown guy. Am I wrong or somewhere in between?

  That's fairly true, but KG generally elevates poor-good defenders while McHale was playing with very good defenders (Parish, Bird, DJ, Danny). They were always good defensive teams and didn't really need to have their games elevated.

[Finkelskyhook]

I've always thought blocked shots were overrated.  Be it McHale, Garnett or anybody else.

Darko is going to break Garnett's Twolves blocked shot record this year.  I don't think anybody would put Darko in the category of great defenders.

For impact on both ends of the floor, IMHO, Garnett, McHale, and Duncan are tied.

A 3-way tie?!?!?! No fun!

All right.  In order of titles

Duncan
McHale
Garnett

I'm 25 so I admit I only saw McHale on the tail end of his career but was he really known as a "quarterback" of the defense? When I think of KG I think of defense first. When I think of McHale I think of post moves first. I just always pictured Garnett as really elevating the entire teams defense and having a bigger overall impact in that sense where I picture McHale as more of a shutdown guy. Am I wrong or somewhere in between?

You're probably pretty close in your analysis.  
McHale was equally competent on both ends.  He guarded 1s, 2s, and 3s. McHale was an excellent help defender.  Unlike Garnett, McHale didn't have to quarterback the defense because he had Parish. McHale covered for Bird defensively....Was the receipient of Bird's genius on the other end.  McHale, in addition to being an underrated passer, had plenty of genius on his own offensively.  

The closest thing that Garnett has had to Parish is Perk.  Perk is solid...But not in Parish's league defensively.   Having Parish as an anchor allowed McHale to focus on shutting down his man.  Garnett has never had the freedom to do that in his career.  Defensive quarterback fits Garnett much better.  

Defensively...IMHO, equal but different.

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

[Edgar]

I've always thought blocked shots were overrated.  Be it McHale, Garnett or anybody else.

Darko is going to break Garnett's Twolves blocked shot record this year.  I don't think anybody would put Darko in the category of great defenders.

For impact on both ends of the floor, IMHO, Garnett, McHale, and Duncan are tied.

A 3-way tie?!?!?! No fun!

All right.  In order of titles

Duncan
McHale
Garnett

I'm 25 so I admit I only saw McHale on the tail end of his career but was he really known as a "quarterback" of the defense? When I think of KG I think of defense first. When I think of McHale I think of post moves first. I just always pictured Garnett as really elevating the entire teams defense and having a bigger overall impact in that sense where I picture McHale as more of a shutdown guy. Am I wrong or somewhere in between?

You're probably pretty close in your analysis.  
McHale was equally competent on both ends.  He guarded 1s, 2s, and 3s. McHale was an excellent help defender.  Unlike Garnett, McHale didn't have to quarterback the defense because he had Parish. McHale covered for Bird defensively....Was the receipient of Bird's genius on the other end.  McHale, in addition to being an underrated passer, had plenty of genius on his own offensively.  

The closest thing that Garnett has had to Parish is Perk.  Perk is solid...But not in Parish's league defensively.   Having Parish as an anchor allowed McHale to focus on shutting down his man.  Garnett has never had the freedom to do that in his career.  Defensive quarterback fits Garnett much better.  

Defensively...IMHO, equal but different.

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

yup

[BballTim]

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

  Well, as equal as they can be when one of the two was frequently referred to as a black hole. McHale was a good passer, but a better scorer.

[Edgar]

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

  Well, as equal as they can be when one of the two was frequently referred to as a black hole. McHale was a good passer, but a better scorer.

well in his deffense, why to pass if youre going to succed.

[Finkelskyhook]

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

  Well, as equal as they can be when one of the two was frequently referred to as a black hole. McHale was a good passer, but a better scorer.

Like many Bird quotes....If Bird said it once, It's been said a million times.  If McHale was a black hole, he wouldn't have gotten so many passes from Bird.  But you're definitely right.  McHale was a better scorer than anything else offensively

[drza44]

Re: Garnett's defense vs Mchale's defense

I don't think this is a legitimate comparison.  There are 3 big areas of defense: defending your individual assignment, team defense, and rebounding.  Mchale was excellent at the first of those things, but he never demonstrated an elite level at either of the other two.  Garnett, on the other hand, ranks out among the best in NBA history at all 3 areas.  That's a huge difference.

And all 3 are very different areas of strength.  Being a lock-down 1-on-1 defender is a very different skill-set from being a dominant defensive team anchor.  Mchale's long arms allowed him to play a step off of the quicker players on the perimeter and still bother them, or to tangle up the bigger centers.  And that's admirable.  But he never demonstrated the kind of foot speed, leaping ability, and defensive leadership ability to say he could anchor a defense.  And you can't just assume that he'd have been able to.

Likewise, Mchale never averaged even 10 boards per game despite playing at a much, much higher pace than Garnett who is one of the few folks to lead the league in boards 4 straight years.  True, Mchale had better rebounders on his team, but it's beyond a huge leap to just assume that on a different team he would go from a pedestrian rebounder to a historic one.  Again, considering Mchale was often defending perimeter players (like KG) means that he was often far from the rim, and he never had the kind of athleticism to consistently get from the top of the key to the rim in time to grab 13 or 14 boards per game.  That's too big of a leap to just take on faith.

Mchale was a very good defensive player.  But Garnett is very arguably the best defensive forward that ever lived.  I just don't see how it is remotely reasonable to say that Mchale was anywhere near equal to Garnett on defense.

[NoraG1]

I've always thought blocked shots were overrated.  Be it McHale, Garnett or anybody else.

Darko is going to break Garnett's Twolves blocked shot record this year.  I don't think anybody would put Darko in the category of great defenders.

For impact on both ends of the floor, IMHO, Garnett, McHale, and Duncan are tied.

A 3-way tie?!?!?! No fun!

All right.  In order of titles

Duncan
McHale
Garnett

I'm 25 so I admit I only saw McHale on the tail end of his career but was he really known as a "quarterback" of the defense? When I think of KG I think of defense first. When I think of McHale I think of post moves first. I just always pictured Garnett as really elevating the entire teams defense and having a bigger overall impact in that sense where I picture McHale as more of a shutdown guy. Am I wrong or somewhere in between?

You're probably pretty close in your analysis.  
McHale was equally competent on both ends.  He guarded 1s, 2s, and 3s. McHale was an excellent help defender.  Unlike Garnett, McHale didn't have to quarterback the defense because he had Parish. McHale covered for Bird defensively....Was the receipient of Bird's genius on the other end.  McHale, in addition to being an underrated passer, had plenty of genius on his own offensively.  

The closest thing that Garnett has had to Parish is Perk.  Perk is solid...But not in Parish's league defensively.   Having Parish as an anchor allowed McHale to focus on shutting down his man.  Garnett has never had the freedom to do that in his career.  Defensive quarterback fits Garnett much better.  

Defensively...IMHO, equal but different.

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

For most of their career who did Mchale get to pqass to on a very talented C's squad. Compared to KG on a Twolves squad. There is no way they are 'equal' in the passing category for that reason alone.

[Finkelskyhook]

And you can't just assume that he'd have been able to.

Actually you can.  For a lot of the time when rosters shrinked around playoff time McHale played center and anchored the defense while Parish was sitting.  The defense didn't suffer much at all.  

[indeedproceed]

And you can't just assume that he'd have been able to.

Actually you can.  For a lot of the time when rosters shrinked around playoff time McHale played center and anchored the defense while Parish was sitting.  The defense didn't suffer much at all. 

eh...I disagree. KG over McHale for defense.

[Boris Badenov]

How many championships would the 1980s C's have one with Garnett in his prime vs. McHale in his prime?

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the Garnett version would have won more. The rest of the C's easily had enough offensive firepower to make up for McHale's absence, the defense would have been better, and their intensity and will to win would have been much, much higher.

[Finkelskyhook]

How many championships would the 1980s C's have one with Garnett in his prime vs. McHale in his prime?

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the Garnett version would have won more. The rest of the C's easily had enough offensive firepower to make up for McHale's absence, the defense would have been better, and their intensity and will to win would have been much, much higher.

Their intensity and will to win would have been higher?  Are you kidding, Boris?  Did you watch Bird play?  Bird's intensity and will to win is pretty much unsurpassed in any era. You could make a case that we'd have won as many titles in that era.  But not more.  This was Bird's team.  Parish's defense.  Garnett would have been a great role player ala McHale.  The only time Garnett would have led those Celtics is when Bird was injured.

Since Bird was less demonstrative there might be a perception by people who didn't watch him much that he wasn't as intense.  Bird didn't headbutt any stantions or pound his chest.  He didn't have to.

[BballTim]

Likewise, Mchale never averaged even 10 boards per game despite playing at a much, much higher pace than Garnett who is one of the few folks to lead the league in boards 4 straight years.  True, Mchale had better rebounders on his team, but it's beyond a huge leap to just assume that on a different team he would go from a pedestrian rebounder to a historic one.  Again, considering Mchale was often defending perimeter players (like KG) means that he was often far from the rim, and he never had the kind of athleticism to consistently get from the top of the key to the rim in time to grab 13 or 14 boards per game.  That's too big of a leap to just take on faith.

  Again, I'll disagree with this. KG was on teams that were, aside from him, absolutely abysmal rebounding teams. When he came to the Celts his rates of scoring and rebounding both dropped by 15% or so. This year he's playing with rebounding challenged centers and his rebounding rate's about 13% higher than his 07-08 level. Clearly his rebounding is influenced by his teammates, and that 15 or so percent drop came when he went to playing with Perk and Pierce. It's extremely likely that he would have seen a bigger drop if, instead of Perk and Pierce he was playing with Bird and Parish, both of whom were very good rebounders.

  Not for nothing, but with a 15% drop in his rebounds per game, in his prime, KG would have won exactly zero rebounding titles.

[Celtics4ever]

Kevin McHale, Karl Malone, Tim Duncan, Dennis Rodman, Bob Petit, Paul Silas, Charles Barkley, Dirk Nowitzki, Elvin Hayes and Kevin Garnett all brought different games to the table and all were all time greats at power forward. 

If I had to pick the most dominant for his era amoung them give me Bob Petit.  One of best scorers and rebounders when you consider all these guys as a composite and as much I hate to say it, he beat us in 58.  Career averages of 26 PPG and 16 boards and 3 APG for an eleven year career.