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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: CelticsElite on July 22, 2018, 12:47:29 AM

Title: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: CelticsElite on July 22, 2018, 12:47:29 AM
Which do you think ?

Long term contract could prove to be a valuable rotation piece. He has shown many flashes of providing scoring inside,  and on the perimeter. 

The argument for Keeping him on a 2 way is that he’s very young and still in development stage (especially in defense), and  we have a pretty stacked team especially with guards (kyrie/ rozier / smart / brown/  Wanamaker), so playing time will be an issue...so we can keep him in the d league 2 way to continue developing with the appropriate playing time he will need. while we leave the roster spot open for any waived veteran perhaps at the trade deadline


My guess: we sign bird to a 4 year deal like Nader and send him to Maine most if not all of the season  in hopes that he becomes a cheap rotation scorer. He might  be with Williams in Maine as well. and if we see a competent waived veteran, we will cut yabusele
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: Surferdad on July 22, 2018, 08:25:29 AM
Surprisingly difficult choice.  I really like what I saw from Jabari in SL.  However, if this is the year they get the Finals, you will need to pick up another frontcourt (IMO) veteran for the stretch run.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: jambr380 on July 22, 2018, 08:43:36 AM
It would be more beneficial to the Cs to have him in that 16th slot and have the option to add a vet min player, but I think the 'fair' thing to do would be to sign him. Since two-way contracts pay very little, it is probably a little too much to ask to once again put him in that position again. Bird has clearly shown more than Nader who had a spot on the big club last year and I would put him ahead of Yabusele (at least what we've seen of him so far).

But, my guess is that we'll eventually move Morris to get under the tax and be able to sign Bird and a vet. I realize losing Morris leaves another hole, but we have a decent amount of wings (including Bird) and if Morris is forced into a big role (loss of Hayward or Tatum, for instance), we aren't winning the championship anyway.

Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: Roy H. on July 22, 2018, 10:00:44 AM
I don’t think Bird is an NBA-level rotation player. I wouldn’t give him anything more than a 2-way deal.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: Csfan1984 on July 22, 2018, 10:09:49 AM
I have seen a lot more that I like from Bird than I ever did from Nader. Think he deserves a contract similar to what Nader had.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: Roy H. on July 22, 2018, 11:16:25 AM
I have seen a lot more that I like from Bird than I ever did from Nader. Think he deserves a contract similar to what Nader had.

I see these two arguments a lot:

1. He “deserves” a contract;

2. He’s better than Nader.

The second argument is irrelevant to me, for two reasons. Most importantly, being better than one non-NBA player does not imply that Bird himself is an NBA player. Both seem like NBA scrubs to me at the present time. There are dozens of guys out there as free agents who will help the team more. Secondly, for Nader, he earned the spot. Not only did he defer an NBA contract for a year by agreeing to play in the D-League, but he excelled there winning ROY.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/gleague/players/n/naderab01d.html

As for “deserving” a contract, I don’t get it. Did Kadeem Allen deserve a contract?

The only compelling reasons to keep Bird to me are:

1. Danny thinks he’ll contribute more this year than any other free agent or buyout; or

2. He thinks that Bird’s future potential is so bright / value is so good that it’s worth being slightly worse in the short term.

I don’t think either is the case.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: Vermont Green on July 22, 2018, 11:41:04 AM
We still have the MLE and the Bi-annual.  Those can be used to fill the final roster spot with a real player.  We can keep Bird on the 2-way.  If we are going to be in the tax either way, we may as well maximize that last roster spot.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: KGs Knee on July 22, 2018, 11:46:05 AM
Players like Jabari Bird are a dime a dozen and can be found all the time. There's no sense on wasting a roster spot on him. I'd much rather keep the spot open for a vet who could actually contribute to a title run.

If he is willing to sign a two-way deal, great. If not, well, thanks for your time here, but we're moving on.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on July 22, 2018, 12:25:58 PM
i really do not think the 15th player on this team will make or break the celtics chances for a championship. having said that, i believe one purpose of the 15th spot is to find and try out a player who might turn into a decent rotation players.

it might be a young lottery ticket, ala bird. or, it might be a reclamation project, a vet with a history of injuries.

the goal is to find a player who does not cost much and can contribute something someday. immediate payoff is nice, but not the real point.

bird looks good as a lottery ticket type of player who costs next to nothing but might, someday, provide valuable minutes as a back up to someone.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: Roy H. on July 22, 2018, 12:36:27 PM
i really do not think the 15th player on this team will make or break the celtics chances for a championship. having said that, i believe one purpose of the 15th spot is to find and try out a player who might turn into a decent rotation players.

it might be a young lottery ticket, ala bird. or, it might be a reclamation project, a vet with a history of injuries.

the goal is to find a player who does not cost much and can contribute something someday. immediate payoff is nice, but not the real point.

bird looks good as a lottery ticket type of player who costs next to nothing but might, someday, provide valuable minutes as a back up to someone.

We have Robert Williams and Yabu as non-contributing development players, and Wanamaker is an unknown.

If we’d used a spot on Gerald Green instead of Nader last year, we may have gotten by Cleveland last year.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: rollie mass on July 22, 2018, 01:17:32 PM
We have Walter Lemon on a two way.Walter Lemon is 6-3 with 48 mx vertical
Can we send a two way to dunk contest.
Now that isnot easily found,imagine his hang time.
The Celtics have gone from earth bound to high flyers.
A closing team in blowouts could be Bird,Lemon ,Williams,Thies and Rozier/Smart-not being serious.
All the Williams chatter has abated is he in Boston working out and getting comfortable.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: KGs Knee on July 22, 2018, 01:30:04 PM
i really do not think the 15th player on this team will make or break the celtics chances for a championship. having said that, i believe one purpose of the 15th spot is to find and try out a player who might turn into a decent rotation players.

it might be a young lottery ticket, ala bird. or, it might be a reclamation project, a vet with a history of injuries.

the goal is to find a player who does not cost much and can contribute something someday. immediate payoff is nice, but not the real point.

bird looks good as a lottery ticket type of player who costs next to nothing but might, someday, provide valuable minutes as a back up to someone.

What you're describing is what two-way contracts are for.

Teams have 15 roster spots.  Setting aside more than 2 or 3 of these spots for developmental players is not ideal roster management for a team competing for a title.  Right now we have, at minimum, Williams, Yabusele, Ojeleye, and possibly Wannamaker.  That's already more developmental players taking up roster spots than I am comfortable with.  There's no room for Bird on the regular roster unless Yabusele is traded and Wannamaker is cut.

And besides, Bird isn't a lottery ticket, he's more like a scratch ticket.  There isn't going to be a high payout even if he does become something.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: nickagneta on July 22, 2018, 01:39:54 PM
i really do not think the 15th player on this team will make or break the celtics chances for a championship. having said that, i believe one purpose of the 15th spot is to find and try out a player who might turn into a decent rotation players.

it might be a young lottery ticket, ala bird. or, it might be a reclamation project, a vet with a history of injuries.

the goal is to find a player who does not cost much and can contribute something someday. immediate payoff is nice, but not the real point.

bird looks good as a lottery ticket type of player who costs next to nothing but might, someday, provide valuable minutes as a back up to someone.

What you're describing is what two-way contracts are for.

Teams have 15 roster spots.  Setting aside more than 2 or 3 of these spots for developmental players is not ideal roster management for a team competing for a title.  Right now we have, at minimum, Williams, Yabusele, Ojeleye, and possibly Wannamaker.  That's already more developmental players taking up roster spots than I am comfortable with.  There's no room for Bird on the regular roster unless Yabusele is traded and Wannamaker is cut.

And besides, Bird isn't a lottery ticket, he's more like a scratch ticket.  There isn't going to be a high payout even if he does become something.
Amen to this. We could be adding as many as 3 first rounders next year. We don't need to sign a late 2nd round scrub to a 4 year contract and just add to more players we will be trying to develop while contending. Give him a 2 way. Otherwise leave it open or find a contributing vet.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: saltlover on July 22, 2018, 01:47:15 PM
i really do not think the 15th player on this team will make or break the celtics chances for a championship. having said that, i believe one purpose of the 15th spot is to find and try out a player who might turn into a decent rotation players.

it might be a young lottery ticket, ala bird. or, it might be a reclamation project, a vet with a history of injuries.

the goal is to find a player who does not cost much and can contribute something someday. immediate payoff is nice, but not the real point.

bird looks good as a lottery ticket type of player who costs next to nothing but might, someday, provide valuable minutes as a back up to someone.

What you're describing is what two-way contracts are for.

Teams have 15 roster spots.  Setting aside more than 2 or 3 of these spots for developmental players is not ideal roster management for a team competing for a title.  Right now we have, at minimum, Williams, Yabusele, Ojeleye, and possibly Wannamaker.  That's already more developmental players taking up roster spots than I am comfortable with.  There's no room for Bird on the regular roster unless Yabusele is traded and Wannamaker is cut.

Neither Wanamaker nor Ojeleye are developmental players.  Wanamaker is veteran depth who happens to be an NBA rookie, much like Theis last year.  He’s two years older than Kyrie.  At 28, he’s probably at the peak of his basketball abilities, which the Celtics are hoping is good enough to be a 12th man or so.

Ojeleye is also not a developmental prospect. He’s a role player who we hope will get better, but in the mean time is perfectly capable of giving useful minutes.

There comes a point where there are only so many minutes to attract the veteran player you’d like on the roster.  The Celtics top 10 in the rotation is pretty set without injuries, and a lot of players aren’t cut out for the DNP-CD role that anyone who signs will be in line for, given they’d slot somewhere in the 11th-13th spot in the rotation.  A player like Jabari Bird, who at 24 has some growth left but has the upside of a player in the back of the rotation, is fine for this last spot.  He will be able to come in and provide some measure of useful minutes, and can be kept for four seasons in this back of the rotation role for a low price, which is important as we have to let some other more expensive depth players go in future seasons.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: billysan on July 22, 2018, 01:56:08 PM
I think we are best served to leave the spot open.

We would get the most benefit from a Joe Johnson type veteran that can give us a couple of 5 minute stretches of mistake free performance in an emergency. A big man would be my preference if one becomes available.

Only use a two way contract on a prospect, Bird is now a known quantity. Unless he is going to get minutes, I dont keep him. Its a waste of money and a roster spot.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: KGs Knee on July 22, 2018, 02:08:21 PM

Ojeleye is also not a developmental prospect. He’s a role player who we hope will get better, but in the mean time is perfectly capable of giving useful minutes.

There comes a point where there are only so many minutes to attract the veteran player you’d like on the roster.  The Celtics top 10 in the rotation is pretty set without injuries, and a lot of players aren’t cut out for the DNP-CD role that anyone who signs will be in line for, given they’d slot somewhere in the 11th-13th spot in the rotation.  A player like Jabari Bird, who at 24 has some growth left but has the upside of a player in the back of the rotation, is fine for this last spot.  He will be able to come in and provide some measure of useful minutes, and can be kept for four seasons in this back of the rotation role for a low price, which is important as we have to let some other more expensive depth players go in future seasons.

Ojeleye is most certainly a developmental player.  You even said so yourself when you stated "who we hope will get better".  He's not ready to be a contributor on a playoff team.  He was forced to try last year and failed miserably.  I'm fine with him as our 13th man, but I don't think he belongs any higher in the pecking order until he proves otherwise.

As for your last paragraph, yes I absolutely want my 11th and 12th players on the roster to be veterans who can come in at a moments notice and adequately fill the void.  There are plenty of players that fit this description.

As I said earlier, players like Bird are a dime a dozen and can be found any time.  Spending a valuable roster spot on such a player is a waste and foolhardy.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: Ogaju on July 22, 2018, 02:12:30 PM
I voted to keep the spot open..... this is not a case of a Bird in hand worth more than two in the bush.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: nickagneta on July 22, 2018, 02:14:58 PM
If Bird is getting a 4 year contract it better be non-guaranteed for every year after year one. We are going to need roster space for at least 1 and maybe 3 rookies next year. Gonna need that roster spot next year.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: Hoopvortex on July 22, 2018, 02:19:51 PM
Long term contract could prove to be a valuable rotation piece. He has shown many flashes of providing scoring inside,  and on the perimeter. 

He has great potential as a defender as well. But doesn't give you much off the dribble, and not someone who's really going to make a play to get a shot for someone else. Even as a defender, he's pretty light.

My guess: we sign bird to a 4 year deal like Nader and send him to Maine most if not all of the season  in hopes that he becomes a cheap rotation scorer. He might  be with Williams in Maine as well. and if we see a competent waived veteran, we will cut yabusele

I think Nader is more of a scorer than Jabari. He's got a repertoire of moves and finishing techniques in the lane. So far that hasn't translated at the NBA level; he was poor at converting those shots. Nader shot well from 3 (.354 on 65 attempts, not a huge sample size but promising for his future). He got himself to the line a fair amount, too, which is a good skill for a player on the outside of a rotation. Again, the sample size is not huge but the result comes right out of his game.

With Bird's spring and length, he'll be able to shoot over a lot of guys. But it would be surprising to see him next season as anything more than a complementary player on offense.

Surprisingly difficult choice.  I really like what I saw from Jabari in SL.  However, if this is the year they get the Finals, you will need to pick up another frontcourt (IMO) veteran for the stretch run.

Your point is well taken. I guess one way to go is to simply plug Bird into the role that Nader played last season; the team found a way to both give Nader considerable developmental minutes and also bring Monroe in to play rotation minutes.

But, my guess is that we'll eventually move Morris to get under the tax and be able to sign Bird and a vet. I realize losing Morris leaves another hole, but we have a decent amount of wings (including Bird) and if Morris is forced into a big role (loss of Hayward or Tatum, for instance), we aren't winning the championship anyway.

I'd agree that losing Hayward or Tatum seriously reduces the Celtics' chances at a championship, though you never know (Steph and Draymond bump heads in the conference finals and have to sit out for concussion protocol...).

On the other hand there are other scenarios where Morris gets a bump in minutes (mostly he was competing with bigs and Ojeleye, as well as Tatum, for minutes); and beyond that: if it happens in February, the guy he's replacing might well be coming back in April.

It seems to me wise to stay out of the tax this season, but Morris is a rotation-quality swing. If they think that Ojeleye is ready to take Morris' role, then it makes sense to move him.

I don’t think Bird is an NBA-level rotation player. I wouldn’t give him anything more than a 2-way deal.

I agree with the first point.  At least, he is not now a rotation player, especially not on the Celtics, who have a lot of wing depth. The lack of strength limits his versatility, despite his assets.

His future? I think that he has rotation-player upside. Good feet and laterals, activity, great length, and a shooting touch. Will it happen on the Celtics? I'm betting against it - he has a lot of guys in front of him, and it's a win-now situation in Boston. If I were Jabari I'd look elsewhere for a better opportunity.

i really do not think the 15th player on this team will make or break the celtics chances for a championship.

I agree - at any rate it's unlikely.

Greg Monroe is not rated very high around here, but I think that he provided some valuable minutes, especially after Theis went down. He's better than a 15th man - I'm just using him as an example of player who helps you hold it together until the post-season.

I guess I'm more on the side of using the 15th spot on a young player with potential - as you put it, a lottery ticket, while the 13th and 14th are the "in case of fire, break glass" types.

Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: Hoopvortex on July 22, 2018, 02:22:32 PM
Long term contract could prove to be a valuable rotation piece. He has shown many flashes of providing scoring inside,  and on the perimeter. 

He has great potential as a defender as well. But doesn't give you much off the dribble, and not someone who's really going to make a play to get a shot for someone else. Even as a defender, he's pretty light.

My guess: we sign bird to a 4 year deal like Nader and send him to Maine most if not all of the season  in hopes that he becomes a cheap rotation scorer. He might  be with Williams in Maine as well. and if we see a competent waived veteran, we will cut yabusele

I think Nader is more of a scorer than Jabari. He's got a repertoire of moves and finishing techniques in the lane. So far that hasn't translated at the NBA level; he was poor at converting those shots. Nader shot well from 3 (.354 on 65 attempts, not a huge sample size but promising for his future). He got himself to the line a fair amount, too, which is a good skill for a player on the fringes of a rotation. Again, the sample size is not huge but the result comes right out of his game.

With Bird's spring and length, he'll be able to shoot over a lot of guys. But it would be surprising to see him next season as anything more than a complementary player on offense, as opposed to Nader, who got the ball in order to make a move and score. Spotting up, cutting, running the floor.

Surprisingly difficult choice.  I really like what I saw from Jabari in SL.  However, if this is the year they get the Finals, you will need to pick up another frontcourt (IMO) veteran for the stretch run.

Your point is well taken. I guess one way to go is to simply plug Bird into the slot that Nader filled last season; the team found a way to both give Nader considerable developmental minutes and also bring Monroe in to play rotation minutes.

But, my guess is that we'll eventually move Morris to get under the tax and be able to sign Bird and a vet. I realize losing Morris leaves another hole, but we have a decent amount of wings (including Bird) and if Morris is forced into a big role (loss of Hayward or Tatum, for instance), we aren't winning the championship anyway.

I'd agree that losing Hayward or Tatum seriously reduces the Celtics' chances at a championship, though you never know (Steph and Draymond bump heads in the conference finals and have to sit out for concussion protocol...).

On the other hand there are other scenarios where Morris gets a bump in minutes (mostly he was competing with bigs and Ojeleye, as well as Tatum, for minutes); and beyond that: if it happens in February, the guy he's replacing might well be coming back in April.

It seems to me wise to stay out of the tax this season, but Morris is a rotation-quality swing. If they think that Ojeleye is ready to take Morris' role, then it makes more sense to move him.

I don’t think Bird is an NBA-level rotation player. I wouldn’t give him anything more than a 2-way deal.

I agree with the first point.  At least, he is not now a rotation player, especially not on the Celtics, who have a lot of wing depth. The lack of strength limits his versatility, despite his assets.

His future? I think that he has rotation-player upside. Good feet and laterals, activity, great length, and a shooting touch. Will it happen on the Celtics? I'm betting against it - he has a lot of guys in front of him, and it's a win-now situation in Boston. If I were Jabari I'd look elsewhere for a better opportunity.

i really do not think the 15th player on this team will make or break the celtics chances for a championship.

I agree - at any rate it's unlikely.

Greg Monroe is not rated very highly around here, but I think that he provided some valuable minutes, especially after Theis went down. He's better than a 15th man - I'm just using him as an example of player who helps you hold it together until the post-season.

I guess I'm more on the side of using the 15th spot on a young player with potential - as you put it, a lottery ticket, while the 13th and 14th are the "in case of fire, break glass" types - the vets you can count on to play team defense, limit mistakes, and stay inside their lanes.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: footey on July 22, 2018, 02:30:53 PM
Why not re-sign Shane Larkin with the open roster spot? Probably can be gotten cheap.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: Csfan1984 on July 22, 2018, 02:33:48 PM
Some great points by a lot of guys.

-The need and use of a vet is more important short term.
-The amount of developing guys is pretty high.

Yet I always felt the third guy per depth chart was supposed to be a developing player. In the format of
Starter, Bench, Reserve also being
Star, Roleplayer, developing/emergency player (S/R/D). C's current roster with Bird would fit that bill.

S/R/D
Irving, Rozier, Wanna
Brown, Smart, Bird
Hayward, Morris, Semi
Tatum, Theis, Yab
Horford, Baynes, Williams


There are also cost to consider if you get a developing player locked up who becomes a roleplayer that helps the teams budget.
Title: Re: Sign bird or keep roster spot open for waived veteran? (Poll)
Post by: saltlover on July 22, 2018, 02:41:16 PM

Ojeleye is also not a developmental prospect. He’s a role player who we hope will get better, but in the mean time is perfectly capable of giving useful minutes.

There comes a point where there are only so many minutes to attract the veteran player you’d like on the roster.  The Celtics top 10 in the rotation is pretty set without injuries, and a lot of players aren’t cut out for the DNP-CD role that anyone who signs will be in line for, given they’d slot somewhere in the 11th-13th spot in the rotation.  A player like Jabari Bird, who at 24 has some growth left but has the upside of a player in the back of the rotation, is fine for this last spot.  He will be able to come in and provide some measure of useful minutes, and can be kept for four seasons in this back of the rotation role for a low price, which is important as we have to let some other more expensive depth players go in future seasons.

Ojeleye is most certainly a developmental player.  You even said so yourself when you stated "who we hope will get better".  He's not ready to be a contributor on a playoff team.  He was forced to try last year and failed miserably.  I'm fine with him as our 13th man, but I don't think he belongs any higher in the pecking order until he proves otherwise.

As for your last paragraph, yes I absolutely want my 11th and 12th players on the roster to be veterans who can come in at a moments notice and adequately fill the void.  There are plenty of players that fit this description.

As I said earlier, players like Bird are a dime a dozen and can be found any time.  Spending a valuable roster spot on such a player is a waste and foolhardy.

Do we not hope Jayson Tatum gets better?  Jaylen Brown?  You can still have room for improvement and not be a developmental player.  Ojeleye gave us important minutes against Giannis in the series vs. the Bucks.  He’s an NBA quality defender right now, and there’s absolutely a role for him on a playoff team. There would be a larger role if he had more offensive abilities, hence his room for improvement, but he’ll get his minutes throughout the season as an actual member of the rotation, and not in garbage time or in th G League.  He’s simply not developmental.