Author Topic: Push for Big Al  (Read 9406 times)

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Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2010, 07:29:08 PM »

Offline ForexPirate

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got to do it.  why not pick back up the guy you traded for kg - if you can.  That's a no brainer.  I mean if Danny is trying to build for the future while trying to squeak out whatever the big 3 have left then I can't think of any better way to do it than adding Al for now and for the future.

In a year, Ainge will be looking to deal KG monster contract and get building blocks for the future - won't you be glad to have Jefferson already in the fold at that point.

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2010, 07:50:23 PM »

Offline ThaPreacher

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Where does Al fit?  He isn't going to start over KG or ONeil or a healthy perk. 
I'd rather go after a sf, a posistion we need help at

Ah, But Big Al gives a great low-post presence.  He can play the 5 or 4 and split time with O'Neal and Garnett.
In the playoffs, it gives us a veritable major scoring option in the low post who must be defended, doubled or fouled.
And here's the deal, Jefferson can be a physical beast when he wants to be.  And he's young....

Baby and Sheed's contract all day!
"Just do what you do best."  -Red Auerbach-

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2010, 08:03:49 PM »

Offline miraclejohan

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I'd be all for getting Big Al back. BUT, why trade Jermaine when we just signed him? Doesn't make any sense and I am very happy to have JO on board.

I guess that's the difference.  I am NOT excited about Jermaine, just like I was NOT excited to get Rasheed and like why I barfed when I heard we were targeting Brad Miller.  This team, especially with 3 (THREE!) more years for the big (OLD ALREADY!) 3, needs to start thinking about building for a solid future.  Not giving up contending, but getting younger while contending.  KG, Ray, and Pierce are ALL amazing mentors and should be able to lead any above-average young fringe-all star player into their own. 

Instead of asking what Big Al (or any player) has done, why don't we ask what KG, Ray, and Paulie Pancakes can teach a kid about growing up and playing for real?
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Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2010, 08:09:51 PM »

Offline Brendan

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Jefferson is a horrible defender. Just awful. That goes against everything this team stands for and has made them successful. Has seeing Mikki Moore and Patrick O'Bryant and watched as great team defense elsewhere went for naught because one big guy couldn't stop anyone from scoring not taught you anything?

Jefferson scores 18 PPG but he gives up 22 PPG. That's a net loss and even though Baby might have his shot blocked a bunch and KG is more of an outside presence and Perk's offense is rudimentary, their offenses are net gains because of the tremendous team defense they play and their versatility on that end of the floor.
This is a terrible analogy - Bryant and Moore have no business being compared to Jefferson. Jefferson should have been an All Star before he hurt his knee. Neither of those guys can put the ball in the bucket.

Next your second paragraph is a great anecdote, but how can you support? Stats? Examples? Observation and analysis? BTW - Perk gives up more of a gap than that against good centers anyways. See for example getting outscored by Howard by double digits. I think his rebounding alone is a defensive asset. How many put backs did we give up to LAL. And the counter example is Ray Allen - a bad defender when he got here, he's shown that in a system where that's valued a guy can transform.

Finally the C's D was fine last year - the problem is their offense sputters out, a guy like Jefferson can keep the O going when teams are forcing Rondo to shoot, and Pierce and Ray are gassed fourth quarter. They could also use a wing that can create, seems that the slashing part of Pierce's game has faded with his increased long range shooting. It hurt us against the LAL because they were rarely in the bonus.

Now I actually don't see him as good fit with JO on board already, but to act like he couldn't bring value to the C's is naive. I think C's need a 6th man SF at this point (please ATL, send over Marvin Williams), but to say anyone who was on a bad team has no business on a winning C's team is to ignore the fact that: KG, Pierce, Allen, Allen, Rondo were all on bad teams. Delonte West was on a bad team, then on a good CLE team - does this mean we can get him or not? It all depends on the overall lineup and team... (Now if you want to make the argument that Jefferson is not a two way player, but is paid like one, I'll agree there - which may be reason enough to avoid him.)

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2010, 08:30:40 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Jefferson is a horrible defender. Just awful. That goes against everything this team stands for and has made them successful. Has seeing Mikki Moore and Patrick O'Bryant and watched as great team defense elsewhere went for naught because one big guy couldn't stop anyone from scoring not taught you anything?

Jefferson scores 18 PPG but he gives up 22 PPG. That's a net loss and even though Baby might have his shot blocked a bunch and KG is more of an outside presence and Perk's offense is rudimentary, their offenses are net gains because of the tremendous team defense they play and their versatility on that end of the floor.
This is a terrible analogy - Bryant and Moore have no business being compared to Jefferson. Jefferson should have been an All Star before he hurt his knee. Neither of those guys can put the ball in the bucket.

Next your second paragraph is a great anecdote, but how can you support? Stats? Examples? Observation and analysis? BTW - Perk gives up more of a gap than that against good centers anyways. See for example getting outscored by Howard by double digits. I think his rebounding alone is a defensive asset. How many put backs did we give up to LAL. And the counter example is Ray Allen - a bad defender when he got here, he's shown that in a system where that's valued a guy can transform.

Finally the C's D was fine last year - the problem is their offense sputters out, a guy like Jefferson can keep the O going when teams are forcing Rondo to shoot, and Pierce and Ray are gassed fourth quarter. They could also use a wing that can create, seems that the slashing part of Pierce's game has faded with his increased long range shooting. It hurt us against the LAL because they were rarely in the bonus.

Now I actually don't see him as good fit with JO on board already, but to act like he couldn't bring value to the C's is naive. I think C's need a 6th man SF at this point (please ATL, send over Marvin Williams), but to say anyone who was on a bad team has no business on a winning C's team is to ignore the fact that: KG, Pierce, Allen, Allen, Rondo were all on bad teams. Delonte West was on a bad team, then on a good CLE team - does this mean we can get him or not? It all depends on the overall lineup and team... (Now if you want to make the argument that Jefferson is not a two way player, but is paid like one, I'll agree there - which may be reason enough to avoid him.)
POB and Mikki are great comparisons to Jefferson, defensively, which is exactly what I was doing, comparing them defensively. Al is a horrible defender.

Check out his opponent's against stats at 82games.com

He averages giving up over 21 PP48 and has a eFG% against of over 54% and averages giving up almost 13.5 RP48. His PER against hovers around 18.5

Perk on the other hand gives up an eFG% around 50%, averages giving up slightly over 12 RP48 and around 18.8 PP48.

Take it one step further the Celtics were 7 differential points better when Perk was on the court whereas Minnesota was 2.4 differential points better when Jefferson was off the court.

Might seem like the numbers aren't that big but when it comes to defense those numbers are huge.

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2010, 09:11:27 PM »

Offline FallGuy

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David Aldridge is about to file a story to NBA.com about trade talks between Dallas and Minnesota. Trade would be Jefferson moving from Minnesota. No idea who the principles would be on Dallas.

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2010, 09:17:10 PM »

Offline cornbreadsmart

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     I would love Big Al here and would be excited to see our offense with him on the court. Our precise would probably make up for a lot of Big Al's defensive liabilities. Everyone would be an option and that team would have a shot at beating any Miami superteam. Big Al's need to be doubled would be the main reason in that matchup , I believe.

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2010, 09:58:10 PM »

Offline Brendan

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POB and Mikki are great comparisons to Jefferson, defensively, which is exactly what I was doing, comparing them defensively. Al is a horrible defender.

Check out his opponent's against stats at 82games.com

He averages giving up over 21 PP48 and has a eFG% against of over 54% and averages giving up almost 13.5 RP48. His PER against hovers around 18.5

Perk on the other hand gives up an eFG% around 50%, averages giving up slightly over 12 RP48 and around 18.8 PP48.

Take it one step further the Celtics were 7 differential points better when Perk was on the court whereas Minnesota was 2.4 differential points better when Jefferson was off the court.

Might seem like the numbers aren't that big but when it comes to defense those numbers are huge.
Disagree - because defense doesn't happen in a vacuum. KG as your PF makes a big difference over Kevin Love at PF, or playing PF. Look at the lineups Jefferson played in: http://www.82games.com/0910/09MIN12.HTM terrible fits (Gomes is prominently featured in most of them, himself a terrible defender.) Perk plays in a defense setup to compliment him, Jefferson doesn't.

But depite those advantages for Perk and disadvantages for AJ we get:

AJ at PF: 23.1 PER - opponent: 19.8 PER (+3.3)
AJ at C: 20.2 PER - opponent: 18.5 PER (+1.7)

Perk at C: 17.0 PER - opponent: 16.6 PER (+0.4)

Conclusion: whatever Perk's advantages at D, Jefferson makes up for them on offense. Factor in that Jefferson's D shortcomings can be helped in the Celtics exceptional system, and Jefferson's offensive disadvantages would fill a major whole in the C's, it would be a no brainer to bring him in... however - I don't think the C's can get him and a the caliber of wing.

People who think people forget that defense matter, sometimes go too far in the other direction... so does offense.

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2010, 10:05:54 PM »

Offline jason macleod

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Big Al won't be back in celtic green, we simply don't have the assets for a trade to work.  they will never trade Al for Perk even if they get Rasheeds expiring contract.  No one would, i also think it's worth noting that despite Perkins most recent injury Big Al has had as much trouble as Elton Brand staying on the court. 
Been Bleeding Green Since 1986

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2010, 10:11:06 PM »

Offline Brendan

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Big Al has had as much trouble as Elton Brand staying on the court.  
Really? I know he had some problems here, but didn't it turn out to be an ankle issue that needed to be fixed that team kept missing? The ACL tear was fluky - like Perk's. And let's not forget Perk has had a lot of injury issues besides the ACL.

Again - agree with your premise, we don't have the talent to bring in Jefferson as of now, Sheed's deal isn't enough without giving up pics, and I don't want to do that when there is a bigger need.

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2010, 10:19:17 PM »

Offline JSD

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I'm on board with Big Al back in Green.

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2010, 11:00:11 PM »

Offline fireflighter

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Sheed + Scal for Jeffereson ?


But this means we have to sign the back up for pierce from Vet min.

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2010, 11:31:49 PM »

Offline Brendan

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Sheed + Scal for Jeffereson?

But this means we have to sign the back up for pierce from Vet min.
Let's say you could send Sheed, the two non-guaranteed kids, Scal signed for less than three million, and three million in cash. (Assuming Minny doesn't mind losing the cap space for scal.) That's neutral for them, maybe they make money on it if Scal's buyout is less than 3 mill. I still think Minny would want two picks 1st rd picks, but I cannot see Danny wanting to do that.

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2010, 09:16:56 PM »

Offline JSD

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I want Big Al back bad! I was just watching this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcT7JTmPPrk

It reminded me of how good his footwork was in the low post! Rasheed and Big Baby would probably be enough if we weren't the Celtics? I'm betting Danny has placed the call but Minny refuses to work with Boston on such a deal.

Re: Push for Big Al
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2010, 09:47:07 PM »

Offline footey

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some of his niftiest moves against bynum and gasol! heavy sigh.