2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Roy H.]

Who did Wilt have during this 50pt season? Walt Bellamy? (6'11, 215, also known as the "Keon Clark Special") Nate Thurmond? Red Kerr? Bob Pettit? Basically it was Bill Russell and then a lot of awkward glances.

I think you're doing a disservice to Thurmond (a legitimately great defender) and Bob Petit.  The competition was less, but there's no discounting Wilt's dominance.

Chamberlain is the one guy from the 1960s who I think could play well in today's game without making any adjustments.  If you take Wilt, put him in a time machine and drop him in 2011, I think he's an all-star. 

If you then project Wilt a bit, I think he becomes even stronger and more athletic (and, based upon averages, probably bigger and taller).  If I had to guess, I'd say a modern-era-adjusted Wilt averages 35 / 16.

[indeedproceed]

Who did Wilt have during this 50pt season? Walt Bellamy? (6'11, 215, also known as the "Keon Clark Special") Nate Thurmond? Red Kerr? Bob Pettit? Basically it was Bill Russell and then a lot of awkward glances.

I think you're doing a disservice to Thurmond (a legitimately great defender) and Bob Petit.  The competition was less, but there's no discounting Wilt's dominance.

Chamberlain is the one guy from the 1960s who I think could play well in today's game without making any adjustments.  If you take Wilt, put him in a time machine and drop him in 2011, I think he's an all-star. 

If you then project Wilt a bit, I think he becomes even stronger and more athletic (and, based upon averages, probably bigger and taller).  If I had to guess, I'd say a modern-era-adjusted Wilt averages 35 / 16.

Completely disagree about your numbers.

28 and 12 blew our minds for a reason. No way anyone gets those kind of #'s.

[StartOrien]

Who did Wilt have during this 50pt season? Walt Bellamy? (6'11, 215, also known as the "Keon Clark Special") Nate Thurmond? Red Kerr? Bob Pettit? Basically it was Bill Russell and then a lot of awkward glances.

I think you're doing a disservice to Thurmond (a legitimately great defender) and Bob Petit.  The competition was less, but there's no discounting Wilt's dominance.

Chamberlain is the one guy from the 1960s who I think could play well in today's game without making any adjustments.  If you take Wilt, put him in a time machine and drop him in 2011, I think he's an all-star. 

If you then project Wilt a bit, I think he becomes even stronger and more athletic (and, based upon averages, probably bigger and taller).  If I had to guess, I'd say a modern-era-adjusted Wilt averages 35 / 16.

Completely disagree about your numbers.

28 and 12 blew our minds for a reason. No way anyone gets those kind of #'s.

If you're arguing that Chamberlain was/would be more dominant in a modern era, you're going to give statistics above Shaq's mind blowing numbers.

[Roy H.]

Who did Wilt have during this 50pt season? Walt Bellamy? (6'11, 215, also known as the "Keon Clark Special") Nate Thurmond? Red Kerr? Bob Pettit? Basically it was Bill Russell and then a lot of awkward glances.

I think you're doing a disservice to Thurmond (a legitimately great defender) and Bob Petit.  The competition was less, but there's no discounting Wilt's dominance.

Chamberlain is the one guy from the 1960s who I think could play well in today's game without making any adjustments.  If you take Wilt, put him in a time machine and drop him in 2011, I think he's an all-star. 

If you then project Wilt a bit, I think he becomes even stronger and more athletic (and, based upon averages, probably bigger and taller).  If I had to guess, I'd say a modern-era-adjusted Wilt averages 35 / 16.

Completely disagree about your numbers.

28 and 12 blew our minds for a reason. No way anyone gets those kind of #'s.

Eh...  Which number do you think is unrealistic?

Kevin Willis, Kevin Love and Ben Wallace all had 15 rpg seasons, and of course Rodman averaged 16+ five different times (including 18.7).  I think the rebounding numbers are fully within Wilt's grasp.

As for the points, maybe 35 is a little high, although based upon Wilt's dominance, I wouldn't discount the possibility.  I definitely think he'd be in the 30 ppg+ range, though.  Malone, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, and Hakeem have all been right around that figure, and I think a modern-era-adjusted Wilt would equal or surpass all of them.

[nickagneta]

I'm willing to give guys with huge numbers (Wilt, Kareem, etc..) the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not willing to compare them on a strict 1 to 1 basis.

I'll counter the argument, even though I'm not fully sure where I stand:

Shaq's statistical dominance was accomplished because he was a monstrous, athletic freak of nature. Why dismiss Chamberlain for doing the same thing but putting up better results?

Dismiss isn't really the word I'd use for what I'm doing, but basically in my mind, I'm not discounting Wilt Chamberlain for doing the same thing but getting better results, I'm dismissing the better results as a product of a faster paced game with less athletic competition.

When making a list of "The Best Centers Of All Time", Its gonna go Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Walton, Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Parish, Moses Malone, and maybe Zo. Of those guys, 5 of them were peers of Shaquille O'Neal.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1960&year_max=1966&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=82&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_g

That's a list of everyone who was 6'10 or taller between '60 and '66.

Who did Wilt have during this 50pt season? Walt Bellamy? (6'11, 215, also known as the "Keon Clark Special") Nate Thurmond? Red Kerr? Bob Pettit? Basically it was Bill Russell and then a lot of awkward glances.

Why dismiss Shaq because he picked on guys his own size?

I will say this regarding stats and pace, players of a bygone era should NEVER have their higher stats be marginalized due to pace. The game was different then without television timeouts or the three point line so to catch up if you feel behind you had to run a pace even faster than the norm which was exceedingly faster than today's pace.

Today's athlete's are bigger and strong but they aren't necessarily faster or as aerobically conditioned. Havlicek and Larry have both mentioned that their teams would run modern day teams off the court because the modern athletes carry so much weight and could never sustain the sprinting 100% of the time pace that the 60's through mid 80's teams sustained.

Its the difference between the athleticism of a world class 10K track athlete and a world class discus thrower or shot putter. Both athletes are at a world class level but in different ways.

That's what happened in the NBA and as much as some say that older players as constituted couldn't compete in today's game, I think many, many, mnay players as constituted in today's game would struggle with the pace of the game from years back

[nickagneta]

Who did Wilt have during this 50pt season? Walt Bellamy? (6'11, 215, also known as the "Keon Clark Special") Nate Thurmond? Red Kerr? Bob Pettit? Basically it was Bill Russell and then a lot of awkward glances.

I think you're doing a disservice to Thurmond (a legitimately great defender) and Bob Petit.  The competition was less, but there's no discounting Wilt's dominance.

Chamberlain is the one guy from the 1960s who I think could play well in today's game without making any adjustments.  If you take Wilt, put him in a time machine and drop him in 2011, I think he's an all-star. 

If you then project Wilt a bit, I think he becomes even stronger and more athletic (and, based upon averages, probably bigger and taller).  If I had to guess, I'd say a modern-era-adjusted Wilt averages 35 / 16.

Do forget how much more often the played those great players as compared to how many time Shaq would face Hakeem or someone else in a year and then feast on mediocre to poor talent for a bunch of games.

[indeedproceed]

Who did Wilt have during this 50pt season? Walt Bellamy? (6'11, 215, also known as the "Keon Clark Special") Nate Thurmond? Red Kerr? Bob Pettit? Basically it was Bill Russell and then a lot of awkward glances.

I think you're doing a disservice to Thurmond (a legitimately great defender) and Bob Petit.  The competition was less, but there's no discounting Wilt's dominance.

Chamberlain is the one guy from the 1960s who I think could play well in today's game without making any adjustments.  If you take Wilt, put him in a time machine and drop him in 2011, I think he's an all-star. 

If you then project Wilt a bit, I think he becomes even stronger and more athletic (and, based upon averages, probably bigger and taller).  If I had to guess, I'd say a modern-era-adjusted Wilt averages 35 / 16.

Do forget how much more often the played those great players as compared to how many time Shaq would face Hakeem or someone else in a year and then feast on mediocre to poor talent for a bunch of games.

There were some bad 7fters that played a lot during Shaq's time (Matt Geiger, Luc Longley, Todd Macculough, Chris Mihms etc..) but there were a lot more talented 7fters. Shaq, Admiral, Hakeem, Ewing, Rik Smits, Vlade, Big Z, Sabonis, Deke..

[StartOrien]

Who did Wilt have during this 50pt season? Walt Bellamy? (6'11, 215, also known as the "Keon Clark Special") Nate Thurmond? Red Kerr? Bob Pettit? Basically it was Bill Russell and then a lot of awkward glances.

I think you're doing a disservice to Thurmond (a legitimately great defender) and Bob Petit.  The competition was less, but there's no discounting Wilt's dominance.

Chamberlain is the one guy from the 1960s who I think could play well in today's game without making any adjustments.  If you take Wilt, put him in a time machine and drop him in 2011, I think he's an all-star. 

If you then project Wilt a bit, I think he becomes even stronger and more athletic (and, based upon averages, probably bigger and taller).  If I had to guess, I'd say a modern-era-adjusted Wilt averages 35 / 16.

Do forget how much more often the played those great players as compared to how many time Shaq would face Hakeem or someone else in a year and then feast on mediocre to poor talent for a bunch of games.

There were some bad 7fters that played a lot during Shaq's time (Matt Geiger, Luc Longley, Todd Macculough, Chris Mihms etc..) but there were a lot more talented 7fters. Shaq, Admiral, Hakeem, Ewing, Rik Smits, Vlade, Big Z, Sabonis, Deke..

But to play devil's advocate, all of those great 7 footers were definitely on the decline when Shaq really started to dominate.

[RebusRankin]

Shaq's game was built on size and strength, Wilt had skill. Remember Wilt had a post game, a bankshot ala Duncan and even played guard with the Trotters. I think he'd be a 35-17 kind of guy. But hey I think Russell could put up 15-15 with 5blockas and assists too.

Shaq in his 99/2000 dominant year had Zo and Zeke, an past him prime Hakeem, a past his prime Ewing and a past his prime Robinson. Lots of Gieghers, Roberts, Ervin Johnsons, Shawn Bradley's out there.

[KCattheStripe]

I like your team a lot KC, but I'm concerned about your teams' ability to cover the wide body bigs.

For example, I think the Duncan/Ewing combo gives a lot of teams fits but I don't know if you have a bench option to counter / slow them down. 

I think people underate Cowens defensively because he was shorter, but I think that Cowens can hold his own with anybody in the low post, otherwise he wouldn't have been an MVp in a time when the League had Kareem, Reed, Unseld, Gilmore, Thurman and so on. Also, on the subject of Shaq: it's rare that anybody's bench in this league has a player capable of containing a dominant offensive big in this format, that's why it was so important to me to start not only a top 10 scorer of all time, but an all time great defender.

Also, my team's defense on the wing will make it difficult for teams to get the ball into their bigs.

[Who]

I don't think Wilt manages more than 15 boards a game. It's very difficult for a team's top scoring option to beat that average. Too much energy used + too many possessions where he isn't in prime position to get the rebound to beat that number.

I would expect Wilt to be in the 14-15 range rebounding wise per game. I'd also expect his minutes to be lower in the modern age than they were during his playing days which would also make it more difficult for him to clear that 15+rpg mark.

I think players like Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman who have limited offensive games and aren't asked for much more than screen setting + attacking the offensive glass ... have a much easier time breaking that 15 rebound barrier. They can spend more time and energy getting in prime position for a rebound before the shot because they aren't important parts of the offense.

I would be looking at Wilt as a 28-32ppg + 14-15rpg type threat at his peak in today's league.

[StartOrien]

I like your team a lot KC, but I'm concerned about your teams' ability to cover the wide body bigs.

For example, I think the Duncan/Ewing combo gives a lot of teams fits but I don't know if you have a bench option to counter / slow them down.  

I think people underate Cowens defensively because he was shorter, but I think that Cowens can hold his own with anybody in the low post, otherwise he wouldn't have been an MVp in a time when the League had Kareem, Reed, Unseld, Gilmore, Thurman and so on. Also, on the subject of Shaq: it's rare that anybody's bench in this league has a player capable of containing a dominant offensive big in this format, that's why it was so important to me to start not only a top 10 scorer of all time, but an all time great defender.

Also, my team's defense on the wing will make it difficult for teams to get the ball into their bigs.

Dave Cowens is #29 on all time defensive win share list. A stat we all have agreed is flawless

[KCattheStripe]

I like your team a lot KC, but I'm concerned about your teams' ability to cover the wide body bigs.

For example, I think the Duncan/Ewing combo gives a lot of teams fits but I don't know if you have a bench option to counter / slow them down.  

I think people underate Cowens defensively because he was shorter, but I think that Cowens can hold his own with anybody in the low post, otherwise he wouldn't have been an MVp in a time when the League had Kareem, Reed, Unseld, Gilmore, Thurman and so on. Also, on the subject of Shaq: it's rare that anybody's bench in this league has a player capable of containing a dominant offensive big in this format, that's why it was so important to me to start not only a top 10 scorer of all time, but an all time great defender.

Also, my team's defense on the wing will make it difficult for teams to get the ball into their bigs.

Dave Cowens is #29 on all time defensive win share list. A stat we all have agreed is flawless

And he's my back up center? WOWIE KAZOWIE! He's awesome!

[Who]

I have Dave Cowens listed as the third best defensive backup center behind Alonzo Mourning (first) and Ben Wallace (second).

And the best overall backup five (D.Cowens) in this fantasy game.

[mgent]

I don't think Wilt manages more than 15 boards a game. It's very difficult for a team's top scoring option to beat that average. Too much energy used + too many possessions where he isn't in prime position to get the rebound to beat that number.

I would expect Wilt to be in the 14-15 range rebounding wise per game. I'd also expect his minutes to be lower in the modern age than they were during his playing days which would also make it more difficult for him to clear that 15+rpg mark.

I think players like Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman who have limited offensive games and aren't asked for much more than screen setting + attacking the offensive glass ... have a much easier time breaking that 15 rebound barrier. They can spend more time and energy getting in prime position for a rebound before the shot because they aren't important parts of the offense.

I would be looking at Wilt as a 28-32ppg + 14-15rpg type threat at his peak in today's league.

I wouldn't be that worried about the guy who averaged over 48 minutes per game running out of energy.