2013 CB Draft : Draft Thread : VOTING ENDS 8:00PM EST TONIGHT

[Rondo2287]

Not a ton of faith in Kobe's triumphant return I see.  We of all fan bases should know better.   

I'm a believer, I had you 5th because I don't know if he will be ready to start the season but your team should finish strong.

[fairweatherfan]

Not a ton of faith in Kobe's triumphant return I see.  We of all fan bases should know better.   

I'm a believer, I had you 5th because I don't know if he will be ready to start the season but your team should finish strong.

Ya I saw that, appreciate it.  Just sneaking in a little last-minute lobbying  5th is around where I'd've ranked myself for the reg. season.

[Who]

East

 1. New York Knicks
 2. Indiana Pacers
 3. Miami Heat
 4. Boston Celtics
 5. Cleveland Cavaliers
 6. Washington Wizards
 7. Chicago Bulls
 8. Atlanta Hawks
 9. Orlando Magic
10. Milwaukee Bucks
11. Brooklyn Nets
12. Philadelphia 76ers
13. Detroit Pistons

West

 1. Los Angeles Lakers
 2. Oklahoma City Thunder
 3. Minnesota Timberwolves
 4. Phoenix Suns
 5. Golden State Warriors
 6. San Antonio Spurs
 7. Memphis Grizzlies
 8. Houston Rockets
 9. Portland Trailblazers
10. Dallas Mavericks
11. Denver Nuggets
12. Los Angeles Clippers

How the heck is Phoenix or Golden State meant to beat Dallas?! 

Phoenix - I wrote about why I like the Phoenix Suns in the Pacific division thread. 

Golden State

I think the Rajon Rondo, LaMarcus Aldridge and Roy Hibbert is quite strong. I love the backup guards - Lou Williams and Reggie Jackson. I think they have a lot of solid players in their supporting cast and bench (B.Rush, D.DeRozan, J.Thompson, Draymond Green). Not a fan of Bargnani. Ezeli and Udoh as third stringers.

Dallas

I find it tough to put much faith in Steve Nash at 39/40 years old. Eric Gordon has had a lot of injury problems. I saw them as two big question marks and with unreliable play from the backcourt ... I just wasn't confident in a Big Al/Deng/J.Smith trio leading this team to the playoffs in an incredibly tough Western Conference.

I can see why you like those teams, but I disagree with you vehemently.
And how are the lakers no.1?

The LA Lakers and Oklahoma City Thunder are my two favourite teams in the West. I think they have some separation from the pack.

I am a big fan of Dirk Nowitzki + Marc Gasol combination. Dirk Nowitzki is still a matchup nightmare at PF. Marc Gasol is a very good interior defender, a top notch high post center and has a low post game to boot. I think those two create lots of advantages for LA.

I really like the wing defense with Quincy Pondexter, Wes Matthews and Mbah a Moute. Oh then there is Delfino as their fourth choice wing defender. They can all shoot the ball well from distance except for Mbah a Moute. Delfino and Wes Matthews bring some secondary ball-handling and passing.

I am big Jose Calderon fan. He does a terrific job running an offense. On a team like this with a scorer like Dirk Nowitzki and such a skilled center as Marc Gasol, I think Calderon is an excellent fit. A high level facilitator who rarely turns the ball, who consistently gets his team good to very good quality shot attempts and makes sure the ball goes where it is meant to go. Combine with the shooters and floor spacing on the wing with two of the most skilled big men in the league and I think LA have one of the most potent offenses in the league.

I really like the Lakers depth too. One of the best benches in the West. A very good backup PG in JJ Barea who can come in and make plays off the pick and roll. The backup wings I noted above. Ed Davis as backup PF. Then J.O'Neal as backup C who has good year for Phoenix in a similar role last season. Plus Kelly Olynyk and Jeremy Lamb as offense orientated third stringers.

It might just be me, but other than that front court combo I don't think LAL are seriously good

Without that staring big man combo, they wouldn't be. I agree.

They are role players who were brought in to play specific roles to support their leading players and they can play those specific roles well.

Without a Dirk Nowitzki and without a Marc Gasol to play off of, they would get their butts whooped ... but they do have a Marc Gasol and they do have a Dirk Nowitzki and they can play the supporting roles well that are being asked of them.

Say, and as the miles pile up, Nowitzki goes down with an injury, how would they do in your opinion?
Completely hypothetical btw

Nowitzki would be a big loss if he got injured. Lakers don't have much shot-creation outside of him. It would limit their offense considerably. It would take them from title contender to a middle of the pack team (well, in this uber-competitive CB League, even worse than that).

PG: Calderon, Barea
SG: Matthews, Delfino
SF: Pondexter, Mbah a Moute
PF: Ed Davis, K.Olynyk
 C: M.Gasol, J.O'Neal

Dirk is healthy now and has been fairly healthy throughout his career. His style of play also reduces risk of injury as well. So it wasn't something I was going to be too worried or pessimistic about.

[pearljammer10]

God those rankings gave me a migraine. I need to go back to bed.

[fitzhickey]

East

 1. New York Knicks
 2. Indiana Pacers
 3. Miami Heat
 4. Boston Celtics
 5. Cleveland Cavaliers
 6. Washington Wizards
 7. Chicago Bulls
 8. Atlanta Hawks
 9. Orlando Magic
10. Milwaukee Bucks
11. Brooklyn Nets
12. Philadelphia 76ers
13. Detroit Pistons

West

 1. Los Angeles Lakers
 2. Oklahoma City Thunder
 3. Minnesota Timberwolves
 4. Phoenix Suns
 5. Golden State Warriors
 6. San Antonio Spurs
 7. Memphis Grizzlies
 8. Houston Rockets
 9. Portland Trailblazers
10. Dallas Mavericks
11. Denver Nuggets
12. Los Angeles Clippers

How the heck is Phoenix or Golden State meant to beat Dallas?! 

Phoenix - I wrote about why I like the Phoenix Suns in the Pacific division thread. 

Golden State

I think the Rajon Rondo, LaMarcus Aldridge and Roy Hibbert is quite strong. I love the backup guards - Lou Williams and Reggie Jackson. I think they have a lot of solid players in their supporting cast and bench (B.Rush, D.DeRozan, J.Thompson, Draymond Green). Not a fan of Bargnani. Ezeli and Udoh as third stringers.

Dallas

I find it tough to put much faith in Steve Nash at 39/40 years old. Eric Gordon has had a lot of injury problems. I saw them as two big question marks and with unreliable play from the backcourt ... I just wasn't confident in a Big Al/Deng/J.Smith trio leading this team to the playoffs in an incredibly tough Western Conference.

I can see why you like those teams, but I disagree with you vehemently.
And how are the lakers no.1?

The LA Lakers and Oklahoma City Thunder are my two favourite teams in the West. I think they have some separation from the pack.

I am a big fan of Dirk Nowitzki + Marc Gasol combination. Dirk Nowitzki is still a matchup nightmare at PF. Marc Gasol is a very good interior defender, a top notch high post center and has a low post game to boot. I think those two create lots of advantages for LA.

I really like the wing defense with Quincy Pondexter, Wes Matthews and Mbah a Moute. Oh then there is Delfino as their fourth choice wing defender. They can all shoot the ball well from distance except for Mbah a Moute. Delfino and Wes Matthews bring some secondary ball-handling and passing.

I am big Jose Calderon fan. He does a terrific job running an offense. On a team like this with a scorer like Dirk Nowitzki and such a skilled center as Marc Gasol, I think Calderon is an excellent fit. A high level facilitator who rarely turns the ball, who consistently gets his team good to very good quality shot attempts and makes sure the ball goes where it is meant to go. Combine with the shooters and floor spacing on the wing with two of the most skilled big men in the league and I think LA have one of the most potent offenses in the league.

I really like the Lakers depth too. One of the best benches in the West. A very good backup PG in JJ Barea who can come in and make plays off the pick and roll. The backup wings I noted above. Ed Davis as backup PF. Then J.O'Neal as backup C who has good year for Phoenix in a similar role last season. Plus Kelly Olynyk and Jeremy Lamb as offense orientated third stringers.

It might just be me, but other than that front court combo I don't think LAL are seriously good

Without that staring big man combo, they wouldn't be. I agree.

They are role players who were brought in to play specific roles to support their leading players and they can play those specific roles well.

Without a Dirk Nowitzki and without a Marc Gasol to play off of, they would get their butts whooped ... but they do have a Marc Gasol and they do have a Dirk Nowitzki and they can play the supporting roles well that are being asked of them.

Say, and as the miles pile up, Nowitzki goes down with an injury, how would they do in your opinion?
Completely hypothetical btw

Nowitzki would be a big loss if he got injured. Lakers don't have much shot-creation outside of him. It would limit their offense considerably. It would take them from title contender to a middle of the pack team (well, in this uber-competitive CB League, even worse than that).

PG: Calderon, Barea
SG: Matthews, Delfino
SF: Pondexter, Mbah a Moute
PF: Ed Davis, K.Olynyk
 C: M.Gasol, J.O'Neal

Dirk is healthy now and has been fairly healthy throughout his career. His style of play also reduces risk of injury as well. So it wasn't something I was going to be too worried or pessimistic about.

Relying quite heavily on a relatively old dude who has been playing for ages
Hence I ranked them lower
And I don't think they have adequate skill at all positions

[Roy H.]

I find it tough to put much faith in Steve Nash at 39/40 years old.

For whatever it's worth, a 38 year old Steve Nash was an all-star just a season ago, finishing first in the league in assists and assist percentage (and second in assists per game), and 3rd in eFG%.  A very poor Phoenix team finished in the top-10 in offensive efficiency, due almost exclusively to Nash.

Steve Nash had a tough year partly due to injuries, and partly because he plays with the biggest non-PG ball hog in the NBA.  Despite that, he was still top-5 in 3PT%, had an eFG% of .557, and had a TS% of .605 (which is his career average).

I really think the move to LA has made some folks forget just how good of an offensive player Steve Nash still is, and just how well he runs offenses that aren't centered exclusively around Kobe Chucker Bryant.

[nickagneta]

I find it tough to put much faith in Steve Nash at 39/40 years old.

For whatever it's worth, a 38 year old Steve Nash was an all-star just a season ago, finishing first in the league in assists and assist percentage (and second in assists per game), and 3rd in eFG%.  A very poor Phoenix team finished in the top-10 in offensive efficiency, due almost exclusively to Nash.

Steve Nash had a tough year partly due to injuries, and partly because he plays with the biggest non-PG ball hog in the NBA.  Despite that, he was still top-5 in 3PT%, had an eFG% of .557, and had a TS% of .605 (which is his career average).

I really think the move to LA has made some folks forget just how good of an offensive player Steve Nash still is, and just how well he runs offenses that aren't centered exclusively around Kobe Chucker Bryant.

That's one way to look at things. The other is that age has finely caught up to Steve Nash being 38, 39, 40 years old(38-39 last year, 39-40 this year) and his body can't do what it once did. I don't think it a stretch to say a 39-40 year old player may miss significant time after doing so last year or that his overall game, especially defense, is going to take a step back. And his back up is Brandon Knight. Its one of the reasons I don't see Dallas as highly as some. Playoff team, yes. Best in the west, no.

[Roy H.]

I find it tough to put much faith in Steve Nash at 39/40 years old.

For whatever it's worth, a 38 year old Steve Nash was an all-star just a season ago, finishing first in the league in assists and assist percentage (and second in assists per game), and 3rd in eFG%.  A very poor Phoenix team finished in the top-10 in offensive efficiency, due almost exclusively to Nash.

Steve Nash had a tough year partly due to injuries, and partly because he plays with the biggest non-PG ball hog in the NBA.  Despite that, he was still top-5 in 3PT%, had an eFG% of .557, and had a TS% of .605 (which is his career average).

I really think the move to LA has made some folks forget just how good of an offensive player Steve Nash still is, and just how well he runs offenses that aren't centered exclusively around Kobe Chucker Bryant.

That's one way to look at things. The other is that age has finely caught up to Steve Nash being 38, 39, 40 years old(38-39 last year, 39-40 this year) and his body can't do what it once did. I don't think it a stretch to say a 39-40 year old player may miss significant time after doing so last year or that his overall game, especially defense, is going to take a step back. And his back up is Brandon Knight. Its one of the reasons I don't see Dallas as highly as some. Playoff team, yes. Best in the west, no.

If people assume that the worst happens for any franchise, you can justify ranking them poorly.  If I remember correctly, it was you who suggested that teams apply their pessimism about injuries, etc., equally across all teams, arguing it was unfair to ding one player but ignore such issues with another.

I find it hard to believe that Nash went from being an elite passer to a broken down has-been in one season, that just happens to coincide with playing next to a ball hog.

My belief in Dallas and Nash doesn't seem to be a popular one, but I'm not sweating it.  You all have been wrong before.   (I mean, seriously, people once voted a team with an old Antwan Jamison and Hedo Turkuglu as its 2nd and 3rd best players to a championship, so it's not like any of this is scientific.)

[fitzhickey]

I find it tough to put much faith in Steve Nash at 39/40 years old.

For whatever it's worth, a 38 year old Steve Nash was an all-star just a season ago, finishing first in the league in assists and assist percentage (and second in assists per game), and 3rd in eFG%.  A very poor Phoenix team finished in the top-10 in offensive efficiency, due almost exclusively to Nash.

Steve Nash had a tough year partly due to injuries, and partly because he plays with the biggest non-PG ball hog in the NBA.  Despite that, he was still top-5 in 3PT%, had an eFG% of .557, and had a TS% of .605 (which is his career average).

I really think the move to LA has made some folks forget just how good of an offensive player Steve Nash still is, and just how well he runs offenses that aren't centered exclusively around Kobe Chucker Bryant.

That's one way to look at things. The other is that age has finely caught up to Steve Nash being 38, 39, 40 years old(38-39 last year, 39-40 this year) and his body can't do what it once did. I don't think it a stretch to say a 39-40 year old player may miss significant time after doing so last year or that his overall game, especially defense, is going to take a step back. And his back up is Brandon Knight. Its one of the reasons I don't see Dallas as highly as some. Playoff team, yes. Best in the west, no.

If people assume that the worst happens for any franchise, you can justify ranking them poorly.  If I remember correctly, it was you who suggested that teams apply their pessimism about injuries, etc., equally across all teams, arguing it was unfair to ding one player but ignore such issues with another.

I find it hard to believe that Nash went from being an elite passer to a broken down has-been in one season, that just happens to coincide with playing next to a ball hog.

My belief in Dallas and Nash doesn't seem to be a popular one, but I'm not sweating it.  You all have been wrong before.   (I mean, seriously, people once voted a team with an old Antwan Jamison and Hedo Turkuglu as its 2nd and 3rd best players to a championship, so it's not like any of this is scientific.)

Thanks for the faith Roy
Well appreciated

[Rondo2287]

I find it tough to put much faith in Steve Nash at 39/40 years old.

For whatever it's worth, a 38 year old Steve Nash was an all-star just a season ago, finishing first in the league in assists and assist percentage (and second in assists per game), and 3rd in eFG%.  A very poor Phoenix team finished in the top-10 in offensive efficiency, due almost exclusively to Nash.

Steve Nash had a tough year partly due to injuries, and partly because he plays with the biggest non-PG ball hog in the NBA.  Despite that, he was still top-5 in 3PT%, had an eFG% of .557, and had a TS% of .605 (which is his career average).

I really think the move to LA has made some folks forget just how good of an offensive player Steve Nash still is, and just how well he runs offenses that aren't centered exclusively around Kobe Chucker Bryant.

That's one way to look at things. The other is that age has finely caught up to Steve Nash being 38, 39, 40 years old(38-39 last year, 39-40 this year) and his body can't do what it once did. I don't think it a stretch to say a 39-40 year old player may miss significant time after doing so last year or that his overall game, especially defense, is going to take a step back. And his back up is Brandon Knight. Its one of the reasons I don't see Dallas as highly as some. Playoff team, yes. Best in the west, no.

If people assume that the worst happens for any franchise, you can justify ranking them poorly.  If I remember correctly, it was you who suggested that teams apply their pessimism about injuries, etc., equally across all teams, arguing it was unfair to ding one player but ignore such issues with another.

I find it hard to believe that Nash went from being an elite passer to a broken down has-been in one season, that just happens to coincide with playing next to a ball hog.

My belief in Dallas and Nash doesn't seem to be a popular one, but I'm not sweating it.  You all have been wrong before.   (I mean, seriously, people once voted a team with an old Antwan Jamison and Hedo Turkuglu as its 2nd and 3rd best players to a championship, so it's not like any of this is scientific.)

I try to avoid often injured players like the plague in these games because i find it's not worth the effort/frustration to defend.  As such I am probably more critical of players with injury histories than others.  But I think it would be very feasible for Dallas to not have Nash or Gordon starting for a third of the season this coming year.  That wouldnt surprise me at all.

[nickagneta]

Don't get me wrong, I find Nash to be one of the three best floor generals and passers in the game and when he will be on the floor(my projection is probably about 60-65 regular season games and all the playoffs because he is a tough dude) the offense in Dallas will be excellent.

But I don't think his defense will improve and its been poor for years. And I don't like the fact that Jefferson will be the guy holding down the last line of defense from oncoming PGs getting into the paint past Nash.

I still think Dallas a good team. Just not the West's best.

[Roy H.]

That wouldnt surprise me at all.

It wouldn't surprise me, but I'm not willing to go so far as to say it's probable.  Prior to last season, Nash has missed an average of 3.7 games per year over the last eleven seasons.  But now, because he had a couple of minor injuries last year, he's "injury prone".

Does that make any sense at all to you?

[fairweatherfan]

My thinking on older players with some recent injury history is that it's pretty likely to affect them somewhat in the regular season, whether it's missing games, minutes restrictions, or simply not going all-out to conserve energy.  But I assume if at all possible they'll be around full strength in the playoffs.  As Celtics fans we've seen that movie quite a few times lately.

So I think downgrading them a bit in the regular season is reasonable as long as you correct for it when the playoffs roll around.


For the record I have Dallas #3 out West, but that's as much about Gordon - who has had a lot of injury problems at a young age - as about Nash. 

[fitzhickey]

Nash might miss some regular season games, but come playoffs Dallas is going 110%
Nash is a tough fella

[Roy H.]

Don't get me wrong, I find Nash to be one of the three best floor generals and passers in the game and when he will be on the floor(my projection is probably about 60-65 regular season games and all the playoffs because he is a tough dude) the offense in Dallas will be excellent.

But I don't think his defense will improve and its been poor for years. And I don't like the fact that Jefferson will be the guy holding down the last line of defense from oncoming PGs getting into the paint past Nash.

I still think Dallas a good team. Just not the West's best.

The defensive criticism, I totally understand.  I don't see how it makes sense to project that Nash misses a quarter of the season, though, when that's happened once in more than a decade.

If you do that, I think you need to make similarly negative projections about Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry, Emeka Okafor, Nene, Wade, etc., etc.  Pretty much the only star player you can guarantee will stay healthy is Lebron.