2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)

[AB_Celtic]

Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

So Cleveland's playing Wallace big minutes?

Yes. And he performed well offensively in the playoffs last year.

[Lucky17]

Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

So Cleveland's playing Wallace big minutes?

I believe AB said that one of either Tony Allen or Gerald Wallace will be guarding LeBron "at all times".

[indeedproceed]

Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

So Cleveland's playing Wallace big minutes?

Yes. And he performed well offensively in the playoffs last year.

Well yeah for 7 games against an overachieving and injured Bulls team. That's hardly an endorsement for a Finals run, is it?

[Fafnir]

Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

So Cleveland's playing Wallace big minutes?

Yes. And he performed well offensively in the playoffs last year.

Well yeah for 7 games against an overachieving and injured Bulls team. That's hardly an endorsement for a Finals run, is it?

Nate Robinson is tough to break down defensively, I mean Wallace only has 1 foot and 100 lbs. on him. What can you do.

[KGs Knee]

Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

Marion from a few years ago would have been on the "longer" list back then for me (as in, still needing an elite scorer next to him).  Today, I don't think I would put him there, it'd be rather borderline.  He'd need a vastly better roster in many other areas.

Wallace isn't even close to on that list.  Bit part on a team that just doesn't appear much better on the whole in the other aspects.

[AB_Celtic]

Nate Robinson is tough to break down defensively, I mean Wallace only has 1 foot and 100 lbs. on him. What can you do.

Gerald Wallace didn't take advantage of Nate Robinson on him in the playoffs this year. I don't think he'll able to exploit Avery or Monta either.

Pick a side there, Faf

Wallace will have the height and weight advantage on Monta and Bradley too, if LeBron does cover Lawson.

[KGs Knee]

Here's part of the reason LeBron needs to have legit counterpart.  If he is allowed to just cheat on defense and save energy, he is likely to be that much more likely to succeed on offense, as it leads to many steals and fast break points.

[Roy H.]

Here's part of the reason LeBron needs to have legit counterpart.  If he is allowed to just cheat on defense and save energy, he is likely to be that much more likely to succeed on offense, as it leads to many steals and fast break points.

Again, that really wasn't the case against Dallas in 2010.

I guess the trouble I have with a lot of the arguments in the thread is that most of the reasoning has already been proven wrong. 

Argument:  Lebron can't lose unless he's got a small forward on him who can both score and play elite defense.

Reality:  Lebron lost in the 2010 Finals, despite playing against Shawn Marion.  He also lost against Hedo Turkuglu / Rashard Lewis.

Argument:  Lebron is unbeatable unless the other team clearly trumps him at all other positions.

Reality:  Lebron lost to Dallas despite having Wade and Bosh, and should have lost against San Antonio.  He's won two titles in ten years, and again, one of those titles had to be gifted to him, despite having two other all-stars.

Argument:  Lebron radically makes things easier on his teammates, amplifying their shooting percentages.

Reality:  There's very little amplifying effect, if any.  Lebron certainly isn't turning inefficient players into efficient ones.

Argument:  There's no such thing as a "wrong" opinion.

Reality:  (Biting my tongue.)

[Lucky17]

Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

Marion from a few years ago would have been on the "longer" list back then for me (as in, still needing an elite scorer next to him).  Today, I don't think I would put him there, it'd be rather borderline.  He'd need a vastly better roster in many other areas.

Wallace isn't even close to on that list.  Bit part on a team that just doesn't appear much better on the whole in the other aspects.

Is Paul George that good a defender? Surprised to see his name on that list, but then I see he was one of your guys.

[KGs Knee]

Argument:  There's no such thing as a "wrong" opinion.

Reality:  (Biting my tongue.)

Well, FWIW, I'm not too high on your opinion, TBH.

[KGs Knee]

Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

Marion from a few years ago would have been on the "longer" list back then for me (as in, still needing an elite scorer next to him).  Today, I don't think I would put him there, it'd be rather borderline.  He'd need a vastly better roster in many other areas.

Wallace isn't even close to on that list.  Bit part on a team that just doesn't appear much better on the whole in the other aspects.

Is Paul George that good a defender? Surprised to see his name on that list, but then I see he was one of your guys.

I had stated prior to the Cb draft I felt George was a top 10 player.  Agree or disagree, I'm consistent about that.  I made sure to let Atzar know this when he almost traded him away from his DKC Pacers.

[Roy H.]

Argument:  There's no such thing as a "wrong" opinion.

Reality:  (Biting my tongue.)

Well, FWIW, I'm not too high on your opinion, TBH.

Glad to hear.  As I've said before, we can't all be right. 

[Roy H.]

So, for the other voters:  is the conventional wisdom that Lebron can't lose unless he's matched up against a great defensive small forward (like Hedo Turkuglu) who also plays great offense (like Shawn Marion)?

I'd like to hear some more about why Lebron is unbeatable.

[Roy H.]

I would really like to have seen more head to head debate between the GMs which we have seen in past Finals debates. Kind of disappointed in that

Yeah.  MP basically posted his lineup, and has been absent.  One post in 14 pages.  It's a bummer.

I'm still waiting to hear how a team with four very inefficient playoff performers as starters is likely to win against *any* team, let alone a very good team like the Cavs.

[Lucky17]

I would really like to have seen more head to head debate between the GMs which we have seen in past Finals debates. Kind of disappointed in that

Yeah.  MP basically posted his lineup, and has been absent.  One post in 14 pages.  It's a bummer.

I'm still waiting to hear how a team with four very inefficient playoff performers as starters is likely to win against *any* team, let alone a very good team like the Cavs.

You can add "auto-pilot switch" to "win button" for LeBron.