Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?

[CoachCowens]

Steve Nash is overrated. He doesn't play a lick of D at all, and on offense, he shoots a good percentage, but has never cracked 20 ppg. Most of his assists are just because he's able to run around like crazy and throw up a pass anywhere he wants and Amare will grab it from anywhere and throw it down.

(And yes, this is facetious, but let's be honest, it depends on the angle with which you approach the question. basketball players are all dependent upon each other. Players need to receive the ball in order to score, and for a player to rack up assists, he needs to be surrounded by people who can score. Amare is maybe the best finisher in the NBA and Nash is one of the better passers. They are lucky to be on the same team. THEY BOTH MAKE EACH OTHER BETTER. Neither one plays defense, and both are elite players at their position. what bothers me is that it's the little white guy who gets credit for Amare's scoring, not Amare's ridiculously elite finishing ability that gets credited for making Nash's assist totals so high. Why is that?)

Are you sure this is facetious? sounds dead on to me.

[Fan from VT]

Steve Nash is overrated. He doesn't play a lick of D at all, and on offense, he shoots a good percentage, but has never cracked 20 ppg. Most of his assists are just because he's able to run around like crazy and throw up a pass anywhere he wants and Amare will grab it from anywhere and throw it down.

(And yes, this is facetious, but let's be honest, it depends on the angle with which you approach the question. basketball players are all dependent upon each other. Players need to receive the ball in order to score, and for a player to rack up assists, he needs to be surrounded by people who can score. Amare is maybe the best finisher in the NBA and Nash is one of the better passers. They are lucky to be on the same team. THEY BOTH MAKE EACH OTHER BETTER. Neither one plays defense, and both are elite players at their position. what bothers me is that it's the little white guy who gets credit for Amare's scoring, not Amare's ridiculously elite finishing ability that gets credited for making Nash's assist totals so high. Why is that?)

Are you sure this is facetious? sounds dead on to me.

You're right, it was only slightly facetious. I don't want to hate on Nash, but it seemed like the criticisms on Amare were:
1. He's not good at defense
2. He doesn't really do anything because Nash does all the work for him and he just finishes the basket.

Point number 1 is legitimate, but i wanted to point out that we have a current 2 time MVP that plays worse defense than Amare.

but point 2 just upsets me whenever i see or here it. I think that you could just as easily and correctly argue that Nash has a really easy job because he's had great shooting and finishing teammates his whole career. All he has to do is pass them the ball and he gets assists for it because Dirk, Joe Johnson, Amare, Marion, et al are great at scoring the ball. Not only that, but for some reason he also gets almost all the credit for the success of the team even though the Suns and Mavs have had multiple all-stars each year that Nash has had a good year.

[Fan from VT]

Just for fun, here's my 07-08 all overrated team. I'm trying to stick with overrated and not just overpaid. And remember, "overrated" is a relative term. You don't have to be a bad player to be overrated, you just have to be overrated by what I see on TNT, ESPN, ESPN.com and Talk Radio.

PG Jason Kidd
SG Randy Foye
SF Tayshon Prince
PF Ben Wallace (still there because of the national NBA media. Most rational people realize he stinks, but some
   people still talk about the cleveland trade this year as them acquiring a "dominant" defender and rebounder, and
   still a "very good" player.
C Jamaal Magloire

Bench: Yao, Carlos Arroyo, Bruce Bowen, Jared Jeffries, Duhon, Verejao, Haslem (one of those "he's so valuable he's so underrated" guys that we've heard that said so many times that almost everyone now thinks he's better than he actually is).

Special edition:
Marcus Banks
Delonte West
Gerald Green
Antione Walker
Glen Davis

Now here's a question: Who's on your underrated team?
It's much harder trying to find underrated players!

PG: Jason Terry (I think he's overlooked on that team)
SG: Jason Richardson
SF: Josh Childress
PF: Leon Powe
C:  Brendan Haywood

Bench: Kyle Lowry, Ronnie Brewer, Rudy Gay, Travis Outlaw, Brandon Wright, Chris Wilcox, Biedrins,

[Steve Weinman]

Just for fun, here's my 07-08 all overrated team. I'm trying to stick with overrated and not just overpaid. And remember, "overrated" is a relative term. You don't have to be a bad player to be overrated, you just have to be overrated by what I see on TNT, ESPN, ESPN.com and Talk Radio.

PG Jason Kidd
SG Randy Foye
SF Tayshon Prince
PF Ben Wallace (still there because of the national NBA media. Most rational people realize he stinks, but some
   people still talk about the cleveland trade this year as them acquiring a "dominant" defender and rebounder, and
   still a "very good" player.
C Jamaal Magloire

Bench: Yao, Carlos Arroyo, Bruce Bowen, Jared Jeffries, Duhon, Verejao, Haslem (one of those "he's so valuable he's so underrated" guys that we've heard that said so many times that almost everyone now thinks he's better than he actually is).

Special edition:
Marcus Banks
Delonte West
Gerald Green
Antione Walker
Glen Davis

Now here's a question: Who's on your underrated team?
It's much harder trying to find underrated players!

PG: Jason Terry (I think he's overlooked on that team)
SG: Jason Richardson
SF: Josh Childress
PF: Leon Powe
C:  Brendan Haywood

Bench: Kyle Lowry, Ronnie Brewer, Rudy Gay, Travis Outlaw, Brandon Wright, Chris Wilcox, Biedrins,

Interesting take, VT.  Although I would ask, who is overrating Jared Jeffries?  So far as I've been able to tell, nobody in New York can stand this guy.  He isn't as good defensively as the Knicks thought he would be when they signed him, and he is an absolute atrocity on offense.  Not sure anyone's claiming this guy is anything special.

-sw

[BASSTHUMPER]

his game has fallen off and i feel sorry for him...but even back a few his game wasnt equal with the hype..

[phantom]

Antoine Walker is not overrated.  He is basically considered a joke in the league now, and he doesn't even really deserve it.  People forget how good he was with us.

[RebusRankin]

Grant Hill doesn't get a ton of recognition but has played well. Al Jefferson. Gomes. Corey Brewer.

[BASSTHUMPER]

Antoine Walker is not overrated.  He is basically considered a joke in the league now, and he doesn't even really deserve it.  People forget how good he was with us.

i aint forgot..

[guava_wrench]

In all seriousness, I do believe Nash is overrated. Look at his stats his two MVP seasons:

MIN  FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL  RB   AST   PTS    PER
34  .502  .431  .887  3.3   1   3.4  11.5  15.5   22.04
36  .512  .439  .921  3.5  .8   4.2  10.5  18.8   23.29

Those are not all-time numbers. And before you give me "point guard intangibles," here's the last stat line of the last MVP point guard, Magic Johnson:

MIN  FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL  RB   AST   PTS
37  .480  .384  .890  3.7  1.7  6.6  11.5  22.3   

Johnson had a significantly better overall season, when factoring steals and the large increases in scoring and rebounding.

So whom did Nash beat each year?
05-06
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL   RB    AST     PTS   PER
Lebron:
42.5  .480  .335  .738  3.3  1.6   7.0   6.6     31.4   28.17
Dirk (whose team was BETTER post-Nash):
38.1  .480  .406  .901  1.9  0.7   9.0     2.8    26.6   28.20
Kobe (take a look at the supporting casts)
41.0 .450   .347  .850  3.1  1.8   5.3     4.5    35.4   28.11

04-05
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
Shaq 
34.1  .601       .461  2.8  0.5   10.4  2.7     22.9   27.03
Dirk
38.7  .459  .399  .869    2.3  1.2   9.7     3.1     26.1   26.14
Duncan    
33.4  .496  .333  .670  1.9  0.7   11.1  2.7     20.3   27.12

All of those stat lines are just better than either of Nash's years. Just look at the PERs! Not to mention the fact that Shaq and Duncan each had more than 2 blocks per game in 04-05, and Duncan, in addition to having better overall numbers, actually makes his defense significantly better than does Nash.

Compare Chris Paul's numbers this year to Nash's from either MVP year:
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%    TO   STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
37.6  .488  .369  .851    2.51  2.71  4.0   11.6      21.1    28.39

I mean, Chris Paul's season absolutely destrys Nash's MVP years. Check out that PER, and look at the scoring and steals, and almost a full turnover less than Nash. If Nash was truly a deserving MVP candidate, Paul has to win this year. Chris's #1 competition this year is generally considered Kobe, with Lebron another viable option (for purposes of this and to avoid starting a flame war i'm pretending KG is not an option).

MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%    TO   STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
Kobe
38.9  .459   .361  .840    3.13  1.84  6.3   5.4      28.3    24.31
Lebron
40.4  .484   .315  .712    3.40  1.84  7.9   7.2      30.0    29.23

In reality, the race should come down to Lebron and Paul, but writers with votes like to think that they know more about the sport than other people do, so they rely on things like "intangibles" talk their way into justifying their voting for their favorite candidate.
But really, Kobe's season this year is worse than his when he lost to Nash, AND Paul's year this year his better than  either of Nash's MVP years. Therefore, at least one of the following statements has to be true: 1) Nash never deserved to win an MVP award, or 2) Chris Paul has to win this year's MVP in a landslide.

You are a slave to stats.

The analysis above doesn't mean much without including the performance of the team they were on in the regular season.

Your idea that Kobe's stats being better when he lost to Nash meaning that logically he must lose the MVP race to win this year is illogical. Kobe lead his team to the best record in the west this season, not in the season you mention above. That is an important part of the MVP race.

The stuff I'm saying should be obvious.

[guava_wrench]

Steve Nash is overrated. He doesn't play a lick of D at all, and on offense, he shoots a good percentage, but has never cracked 20 ppg. Most of his assists are just because he's able to run around like crazy and throw up a pass anywhere he wants and Amare will grab it from anywhere and throw it down.

(And yes, this is facetious, but let's be honest, it depends on the angle with which you approach the question. basketball players are all dependent upon each other. Players need to receive the ball in order to score, and for a player to rack up assists, he needs to be surrounded by people who can score. Amare is maybe the best finisher in the NBA and Nash is one of the better passers. They are lucky to be on the same team. THEY BOTH MAKE EACH OTHER BETTER. Neither one plays defense, and both are elite players at their position. what bothers me is that it's the little white guy who gets credit for Amare's scoring, not Amare's ridiculously elite finishing ability that gets credited for making Nash's assist totals so high. Why is that?)

Are you sure this is facetious? sounds dead on to me.

You're right, it was only slightly facetious. I don't want to hate on Nash, but it seemed like the criticisms on Amare were:
1. He's not good at defense
2. He doesn't really do anything because Nash does all the work for him and he just finishes the basket.

Point number 1 is legitimate, but i wanted to point out that we have a current 2 time MVP that plays worse defense than Amare.

but point 2 just upsets me whenever i see or here it. I think that you could just as easily and correctly argue that Nash has a really easy job because he's had great shooting and finishing teammates his whole career. All he has to do is pass them the ball and he gets assists for it because Dirk, Joe Johnson, Amare, Marion, et al are great at scoring the ball. Not only that, but for some reason he also gets almost all the credit for the success of the team even though the Suns and Mavs have had multiple all-stars each year that Nash has had a good year.

I think a lot of people voted for Nash because they WATCHED HIM play and were impressed by what they saw. They saw the difference in Phx's execution with him on the floor and with him off the floor. They voted for him for many of the same reasons that some will vote for KG this season.

The problem for KG and why he won't get the same consideration that Nash got is that Kobe and CP3 also led their teams to strong records in the West, and they did it while accumulating more impressive stats and while handling the ball in the key moments at the ends of games. Beyond that, Kobe is an all time great and this is the first season that he is truly worthy of the MVP.

[Fan from VT]

In all seriousness, I do believe Nash is overrated. Look at his stats his two MVP seasons:

MIN  FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL  RB   AST   PTS    PER
34  .502  .431  .887  3.3   1   3.4  11.5  15.5   22.04
36  .512  .439  .921  3.5  .8   4.2  10.5  18.8   23.29

Those are not all-time numbers. And before you give me "point guard intangibles," here's the last stat line of the last MVP point guard, Magic Johnson:

MIN  FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL  RB   AST   PTS
37  .480  .384  .890  3.7  1.7  6.6  11.5  22.3   

Johnson had a significantly better overall season, when factoring steals and the large increases in scoring and rebounding.

So whom did Nash beat each year?
05-06
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL   RB    AST     PTS   PER
Lebron:
42.5  .480  .335  .738  3.3  1.6   7.0   6.6     31.4   28.17
Dirk (whose team was BETTER post-Nash):
38.1  .480  .406  .901  1.9  0.7   9.0     2.8    26.6   28.20
Kobe (take a look at the supporting casts)
41.0 .450   .347  .850  3.1  1.8   5.3     4.5    35.4   28.11

04-05
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
Shaq 
34.1  .601       .461  2.8  0.5   10.4  2.7     22.9   27.03
Dirk
38.7  .459  .399  .869    2.3  1.2   9.7     3.1     26.1   26.14
Duncan    
33.4  .496  .333  .670  1.9  0.7   11.1  2.7     20.3   27.12

All of those stat lines are just better than either of Nash's years. Just look at the PERs! Not to mention the fact that Shaq and Duncan each had more than 2 blocks per game in 04-05, and Duncan, in addition to having better overall numbers, actually makes his defense significantly better than does Nash.

Compare Chris Paul's numbers this year to Nash's from either MVP year:
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%    TO   STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
37.6  .488  .369  .851    2.51  2.71  4.0   11.6      21.1    28.39

I mean, Chris Paul's season absolutely destrys Nash's MVP years. Check out that PER, and look at the scoring and steals, and almost a full turnover less than Nash. If Nash was truly a deserving MVP candidate, Paul has to win this year. Chris's #1 competition this year is generally considered Kobe, with Lebron another viable option (for purposes of this and to avoid starting a flame war i'm pretending KG is not an option).

MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%    TO   STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
Kobe
38.9  .459   .361  .840    3.13  1.84  6.3   5.4      28.3    24.31
Lebron
40.4  .484   .315  .712    3.40  1.84  7.9   7.2      30.0    29.23

In reality, the race should come down to Lebron and Paul, but writers with votes like to think that they know more about the sport than other people do, so they rely on things like "intangibles" talk their way into justifying their voting for their favorite candidate.
But really, Kobe's season this year is worse than his when he lost to Nash, AND Paul's year this year his better than  either of Nash's MVP years. Therefore, at least one of the following statements has to be true: 1) Nash never deserved to win an MVP award, or 2) Chris Paul has to win this year's MVP in a landslide.

You are a slave to stats.

The analysis above doesn't mean much without including the performance of the team they were on in the regular season.

Your idea that Kobe's stats being better when he lost to Nash meaning that logically he must lose the MVP race to win this year is illogical. Kobe lead his team to the best record in the west this season, not in the season you mention above. That is an important part of the MVP race.

The stuff I'm saying should be obvious.

I wouldn't say a slave to stats, but they are important. As for team success, well, 12 players dress for each game and contribute to a win or a loss, regardless of how good a season the best player on the team has. No matter how good a superstar is, they can only do so much. Look at KG's production over the years compared to team record. He's essentially always been the same dominant player, but his team's record has fluctuated tremendously. He's not that different this year than last year, but his team is very different, hence the difference in records.

Obviously stats and "intangible evidence" will always go hand in hand, but anytime your intangible evidence is the main reason to vote for an MVP, there's probably a flaw in your logic. This year, it's that Kobe is so much better than in any other year. Well, he's not, he's having a great year AND his teammates are playing better than before. Steve Nash did not save basketball in phoenix, he is a great player on a team with several great players, whose arrival coincided with team success, and because he's such and "interesting" figure, he got tremendous media credit for the team's turnaround.

[MaineBleedsGreen]

In all seriousness, I do believe Nash is overrated. Look at his stats his two MVP seasons:

MIN  FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL  RB   AST   PTS    PER
34  .502  .431  .887  3.3   1   3.4  11.5  15.5   22.04
36  .512  .439  .921  3.5  .8   4.2  10.5  18.8   23.29

Those are not all-time numbers. And before you give me "point guard intangibles," here's the last stat line of the last MVP point guard, Magic Johnson:

MIN  FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL  RB   AST   PTS
37  .480  .384  .890  3.7  1.7  6.6  11.5  22.3   

Johnson had a significantly better overall season, when factoring steals and the large increases in scoring and rebounding.

So whom did Nash beat each year?
05-06
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL   RB    AST     PTS   PER
Lebron:
42.5  .480  .335  .738  3.3  1.6   7.0   6.6     31.4   28.17
Dirk (whose team was BETTER post-Nash):
38.1  .480  .406  .901  1.9  0.7   9.0     2.8    26.6   28.20
Kobe (take a look at the supporting casts)
41.0 .450   .347  .850  3.1  1.8   5.3     4.5    35.4   28.11

04-05
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
Shaq 
34.1  .601       .461  2.8  0.5   10.4  2.7     22.9   27.03
Dirk
38.7  .459  .399  .869    2.3  1.2   9.7     3.1     26.1   26.14
Duncan    
33.4  .496  .333  .670  1.9  0.7   11.1  2.7     20.3   27.12

All of those stat lines are just better than either of Nash's years. Just look at the PERs! Not to mention the fact that Shaq and Duncan each had more than 2 blocks per game in 04-05, and Duncan, in addition to having better overall numbers, actually makes his defense significantly better than does Nash.

Compare Chris Paul's numbers this year to Nash's from either MVP year:
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%    TO   STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
37.6  .488  .369  .851    2.51  2.71  4.0   11.6      21.1    28.39

I mean, Chris Paul's season absolutely destrys Nash's MVP years. Check out that PER, and look at the scoring and steals, and almost a full turnover less than Nash. If Nash was truly a deserving MVP candidate, Paul has to win this year. Chris's #1 competition this year is generally considered Kobe, with Lebron another viable option (for purposes of this and to avoid starting a flame war i'm pretending KG is not an option).

MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%    TO   STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
Kobe
38.9  .459   .361  .840    3.13  1.84  6.3   5.4      28.3    24.31
Lebron
40.4  .484   .315  .712    3.40  1.84  7.9   7.2      30.0    29.23

In reality, the race should come down to Lebron and Paul, but writers with votes like to think that they know more about the sport than other people do, so they rely on things like "intangibles" talk their way into justifying their voting for their favorite candidate.
But really, Kobe's season this year is worse than his when he lost to Nash, AND Paul's year this year his better than  either of Nash's MVP years. Therefore, at least one of the following statements has to be true: 1) Nash never deserved to win an MVP award, or 2) Chris Paul has to win this year's MVP in a landslide.

You are a slave to stats.

The analysis above doesn't mean much without including the performance of the team they were on in the regular season.

Your idea that Kobe's stats being better when he lost to Nash meaning that logically he must lose the MVP race to win this year is illogical. Kobe lead his team to the best record in the west this season, not in the season you mention above. That is an important part of the MVP race.

The stuff I'm saying should be obvious.

I wouldn't say a slave to stats, but they are important. As for team success, well, 12 players dress for each game and contribute to a win or a loss, regardless of how good a season the best player on the team has. No matter how good a superstar is, they can only do so much. Look at KG's production over the years compared to team record. He's essentially always been the same dominant player, but his team's record has fluctuated tremendously. He's not that different this year than last year, but his team is very different, hence the difference in records.

Obviously stats and "intangible evidence" will always go hand in hand, but anytime your intangible evidence is the main reason to vote for an MVP, there's probably a flaw in your logic. This year, it's that Kobe is so much better than in any other year. Well, he's not, he's having a great year AND his teammates are playing better than before. Steve Nash did not save basketball in phoenix, he is a great player on a team with several great players, whose arrival coincided with team success, and because he's such and "interesting" figure, he got tremendous media credit for the team's turnaround.

I completely agree with you VT. and so we don't hijack this Amare thread, I'm gunna start one on nash.

[Fan from VT]

You're right, it's very easy to get off topic. But is Amare the most overrated player in the league? No way. Look what he did this year:
Min   FG%   FT%  STL   BLK   ASST   REB  PTS    PER
33.9 .590  .805    0.8   2.1   2.2    9.1  25.2   27.61

Those are fantastic numbers for just 34 minutes a game.

In order to be overrated, people need to think he's way better than he actually is. I think he's one of the better players in the league, and that seems to be the general consensus. No one thinks he's all-nba, nearly everyone thinks he's not even the best player on his own team. Most people list KG, Duncan, Dwight, and Dirk ahead of Amare; some would put Bosh and Boozer ahead of him too. That seems about right to me, I consider him just a hair below those top 4 and on par with Bosh and ahead of boozer. he's better than offense than all of them except dirk, but the others are all better on D, except boozer or maybe dirk. His rebounding is also a little below those guys. So he's right there in the mix, so I don't understand how he's overrated.

[Redz]

He's coming back down to earth a bit in the "overrated" category but I'd still rank Vince Carter as king of this hill.

[wdleehi]

He's coming back down to earth a bit in the "overrated" category but I'd still rank Vince Carter as king of this hill.

I think there are a ton of guys for this list.

AI
Melo
Arenas
Josh Smith