Talent in College Basketball

[Moranis]

I'm getting tired of hearing how the NCAA doesn't have talent anymore.  ESPN, CBS, Fox, CNNSI, etc. all keep talking about how in the old days all these title games had all these NBA players, which is true, but they act like that hasn't happened recently, which is not true.  The 2007 national championship game between Ohio State and Florida, had 10 (Lighty will make 11 if he makes the NBA) players that have already played in the NBA.  Now granted Othello Hunter and Taurean Green played in less then 25 games, but they did both play in the league.  Chris Richard is out of the league now, but did play 70 games over 2 seasons.  But Conley, Horford, Noah, and Brewer have all started over 150 games a piece, Oden would have without the injuries, and Speights and Cook have played in approximately 200 games each and are both still in the league. 

The 07-08 title game featured Kansas v. Memphis.  Kansas had the following NBA players: Aldrich, Arthur, Chalmers, Collins, Jackson, and Rush.  Memphis sported: Anderson, Dorsey, Douglas-Roberts, and Rose.  That would be 10 NBA players including the favorite to win the MVP this year.

To act like there isn't talent anymore is just ridiculous.  Sure the last couple of years have lacked dominant teams, but it wasn't that long ago that Florida was winning back to back NCAA titles with 6 NBA level players on the roster, which was followed up by Kansas winning the championship with 6 NBA players.  Each of those teams beat a team in the championship with at least 4 NBA players including the #1 pick in the draft the following summer.

[jgod213]

The talent is still there, there's no doubt about that - the talent influx in the NBA is an example in itself of how many talented, young basketball players there are in this generation. 

The problem is that, although we're exposed to these kids a lot more now then we were even 5 years ago with all the March Madness hype and nationally televised regular-season games, only the true die-hards really now just how good some of these kids are when they are freshman/sophmores.  Sure we've all heard the names Sullinger and Barnes, but not a lot of CBB fans (even passionate ones) know much about Brandon Knight or Tobias Harris until tourney time rolls around...And once that happens you get to really see these guys for about one/two/three games until their season is over and they declare for the NBA draft.

Again, the talent is there in bunches, but we don't end up finding out just how good these kids are until we've been exposed to them in the pro's.

[wdleehi]

Did you know those teams had that much talent back then?  Where they all at that level at that point?



The issues is the one and done.  Few players can build a reputation fast enough for them to mean much to the casual fan by the time of the tournament.


And the guys who stay long in school usually are not the guys that are the top talent.



The issue is known top talent.  The NCAA has a shortage of that.



This is not the NBA's problem mind you except that many of their rookies are not well known when they are drafted. 

[Kwhit10]

Yea there is NBA talent, but I think decades ago, the people that were stars in the NBA were also in the big games.

Derrick Rose is now the newest superstar to have been in the NCAA championship.

Who was that guy before him...Carmelo or Deron Wiliams?

And who was/were those players before him?

I guess I'm saying, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Ewing, Olajuwon, Isiah Thomas all played in the NCAA title game.

Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Stoudemire etc. have not been in a NCAA title game.

[Moranis]

Yea there is NBA talent, but I think decades ago, the people that were stars in the NBA were also in the big games.

Derrick Rose is now the newest superstar to have been in the NCAA championship.

Who was that guy before him...Carmelo or Deron Wiliams?

And who was/were those players before him?

I guess I'm saying, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Ewing, Olajuwon, Isiah Thomas all played in the NCAA title game.

Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Stoudemire etc. have not been in a NCAA title game.

yeah but David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Dave Cowens, etc. never played in the NCAA championship game either.  

In fact of the 10 players with the most points in NBA/ABA history, only Kareem, Jordan, and Chamberlain ever played for a national championship. 

[Kwhit10]

Yea there is NBA talent, but I think decades ago, the people that were stars in the NBA were also in the big games.

Derrick Rose is now the newest superstar to have been in the NCAA championship.

Who was that guy before him...Carmelo or Deron Wiliams?

And who was/were those players before him?

I guess I'm saying, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Ewing, Olajuwon, Isiah Thomas all played in the NCAA title game.

Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Stoudemire etc. have not been in a NCAA title game.

yeah but David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Dave Cowens, etc. never played in the NCAA championship game either. 

I know but how many of the superstars today have compared to how many have in the 80's and prior?

Derrick Rose, Carmelo, and maybe include Deron Williams?  That's it? 

[KCattheStripe]

Yea there is NBA talent, but I think decades ago, the people that were stars in the NBA were also in the big games.

Derrick Rose is now the newest superstar to have been in the NCAA championship.

Who was that guy before him...Carmelo or Deron Wiliams?

And who was/were those players before him?

I guess I'm saying, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Ewing, Olajuwon, Isiah Thomas all played in the NCAA title game.

Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Stoudemire etc. have not been in a NCAA title game.

yeah but David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Dave Cowens, etc. never played in the NCAA championship game either. 

I know but how many of the superstars today have compared to how many have in the 80's and prior?

Derrick Rose, Carmelo, and maybe include Deron Williams?  That's it? 

National championship game is tough when you consider the 10+ of high school kids making the jump.

Think of the biggest names in the NBA right now:
Garnett, Bryant, Lebron, Dwight Howard all made the jump.

Dwade, Carmello, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose all made the final Four at least.

Chris Paul was on a bad Wake Forest team, Durant's coach is an idiot and Duncan and Shaq were by themselves on bad teams.


I think it's roughly the same when you consider that a significant amount of talent bypassed the college game entirely.

[Kwhit10]

Yea there is NBA talent, but I think decades ago, the people that were stars in the NBA were also in the big games.

Derrick Rose is now the newest superstar to have been in the NCAA championship.

Who was that guy before him...Carmelo or Deron Wiliams?

And who was/were those players before him?

I guess I'm saying, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Ewing, Olajuwon, Isiah Thomas all played in the NCAA title game.

Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Stoudemire etc. have not been in a NCAA title game.

yeah but David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Dave Cowens, etc. never played in the NCAA championship game either. 

I know but how many of the superstars today have compared to how many have in the 80's and prior?

Derrick Rose, Carmelo, and maybe include Deron Williams?  That's it? 

National championship game is tough when you consider the 10+ of high school kids making the jump.

Think of the biggest names in the NBA right now:
Garnett, Bryant, Lebron, Dwight Howard all made the jump.

Dwade, Carmello, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose all made the final Four at least.

Chris Paul was on a bad Wake Forest team, Durant's coach is an idiot and Duncan and Shaq were by themselves on bad teams.


I think it's roughly the same when you consider that a significant amount of talent bypassed the college game entirely.

But isn't that the whole point of the argument?  There isn't as much top talent in the NCAA because players leave much sooner than they used to.  Thus why the top NBA players of yesteryear who were in college for more than 1-2 years got their team to the top level.

[Moranis]

Yea there is NBA talent, but I think decades ago, the people that were stars in the NBA were also in the big games.

Derrick Rose is now the newest superstar to have been in the NCAA championship.

Who was that guy before him...Carmelo or Deron Wiliams?

And who was/were those players before him?

I guess I'm saying, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Ewing, Olajuwon, Isiah Thomas all played in the NCAA title game.

Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Stoudemire etc. have not been in a NCAA title game.

yeah but David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Dave Cowens, etc. never played in the NCAA championship game either. 

I know but how many of the superstars today have compared to how many have in the 80's and prior?

Derrick Rose, Carmelo, and maybe include Deron Williams?  That's it? 

National championship game is tough when you consider the 10+ of high school kids making the jump.

Think of the biggest names in the NBA right now:
Garnett, Bryant, Lebron, Dwight Howard all made the jump.

Dwade, Carmello, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose all made the final Four at least.

Chris Paul was on a bad Wake Forest team, Durant's coach is an idiot and Duncan and Shaq were by themselves on bad teams.


I think it's roughly the same when you consider that a significant amount of talent bypassed the college game entirely.

But isn't that the whole point of the argument?  There isn't as much top talent in the NCAA because players leave much sooner than they used to.  Thus why the top NBA players of yesteryear who were in college for more than 1-2 years got their team to the top level.

I actually think the talent level of today is greater then 20 years ago even with all the early entries, it is just spread out a lot more then 20 years ago.  Guys like Perry Jones, Jimmer Fredette, and Kawhi Leonard aren't going to Baylor, BYU, and San Diego St. respectively in the 80's (at least not with the consistency they are today).   

Though I will say can you imagine if Ohio State still had Evan Turner, Kosta Koufus, and BJ Mullens?  Now that would be an all time great team. 

[Donoghus]

There's talent.  The problem is the turnover is a lot greater.

The college game of twenty years ago illustrated the growth of the same players for 3-4 years.  You would see the same faces for multiple seasons.  You'd watch guys like Laettner, Hurley, Grant Hill grow year after year.  You'd become familiar with a team and watch the talent develop for 2-3 years.

Nowadays, the top talent is one & done.  Its very hard for a school to maintain any sustainability of success (talking multiple deep NCAA runs) because their stars are only there for one year.   The turnover is what's biting college basketball in the butt right now. 

[Mike-Dub]

Did you know those teams had that much talent back then?  Where they all at that level at that point?

Yes I did know that those teams had that much talent back then.  I thought Memphis was going to go undefeated.

The reason I knew those teams had talent though was because they were lead by upper classmen.  Memphis had all returners from an elite eight run with the addition of "Frosh" Derrick Rose.  No I didn't know Rose would be that good. 

Kansas that same year had all returners from an Elite Eight run.  Florida all returners from a Championship. 

Ohio State was the only team from the examples given that I did not know would be so good and that is because they had two "one and dones" in Oden and Connelly.

The teams with the experience win it.  That is why I'm picking Duke in my bracket. 

Where the problem is... is that there aren't many teams with many upperclassmen except for  Duke (My pick to win it) who many many people are over looking, and Ohio State and Kansas who are most peoples picks.

The problem that there aren't more teams like this is because of the "one and done" and like said before in these thread you don't get use to seeing the players for consecutive years unless you are a diehard because they are "one and dones" and most of them are "one and dones" when they shouldn't be.  I think the NBA change the "one and done" rule and have it so you have to either enter the draft from high school or stay at least two years, not to improve the college game, but to improve the NBA game and get rid of the Avery Bradley's and let them get more experience in college and improve the fundamentals of their game in college.

[CelticSooner]

There's talent.  The problem is the turnover is a lot greater.

The college game of twenty years ago illustrated the growth of the same players for 3-4 years.  You would see the same faces for multiple seasons.  You'd watch guys like Laettner, Hurley, Grant Hill grow year after year.  You'd become familiar with a team and watch the talent develop for 2-3 years.

Nowadays, the top talent is one & done.  Its very hard for a school to maintain any sustainability of success (talking multiple deep NCAA runs) because their stars are only there for one year.   The turnover is what's biting college basketball in the butt right now. 

This is the biggest problem with the college game now days. It's hard for the alumni and fans to appreciate a team when it looks completely different every year.

I've lost touch which the college game as of late. It just feels like all the best players are hired guns that will be gone in a year or two.

I'll tell you who it helps though, the mid-major teams. A prime example is Butler last season. They were a veteran team and came a bounce away from winning it all. Funny thing is their best player bolted shortly after. Just the nature of the ways things are now days.