Author Topic: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules  (Read 24329 times)

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Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« on: June 26, 2019, 02:23:07 PM »

Offline saltlover

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In the very long Kemba thread, every few pages someone asks/assumes that Horford will return if we sign Kemba, and then someone else reminds/informs that person that we are using cap space created by Horford’s departure to pursue Kemba.  And while that is largely correct, it is possible for Horford to resign with the Celtics at the amount he is rumored to be seeking and sign Kemba to a max deal.  It doesn’t even necessitate trading Hayward or anyone else in the rotation as of today.  It is certainly unlikely to occur, but if it did, it would be a farewell gift from Kyrie.  Here’s how:

Celtics re-sign Horford, receive Kemba Walker in a sign-and-trade for the max.

Kyrie finds his new home via a S&T, his new team gets future draft considerations for helping out.

Charlotte signs Terry Rozier via a S&T to a contract between $12 million and $21.25 million in year 1 (those two can negotiate the exact amount, that’s just what works CBA-wise to match salaries, and is clearly in the range of a deal Rozier would seek).  Charlotte might also receive draft considerations.

Explanation:

In order to acquire Kemba via a S&T, Boston would either need a trade exemption equal to Walker’s year 1 salary ($32.7 million) or would need to send $26.08 million in outgoing salaries.  Boston doesn’t exactly have those salaries to offer from its current roster (aside from Hayward), but it could use Kyrie’s signing to account for approximately $20.1 million of that amount (his salary from last year).  Thus they would need to only send out another $6 million in salary to match Kemba’s incoming salary.  I propose that Rozier could be this additional salary, although his salary would only count half for matching purposes because he’s be getting a significant raise from last year, this his starting salary would need to be at least $12 million.

Why for Celtics:

I think this is obvious, but replacing Kyrie with Kemba while keeping Al and most other key pieces would be pretty much the best we could hope for at this point.

Why for Kyrie’s new team:

Get draft picks for someone you were going to sign anyway leaves you in a better position than when you started.  That said, the negotiation is probably easier if Kyrie goes to a Western Conference team, who won’t be worried about potentially helping the Celtics, and easiest if Kyrie goes to the Lakers, since they’d need to make a trade to accommodate his salary anyway (if it is even possible for them at all).

Why for Charlotte:

If Kemba leaves, they become a capped out team with only TreVeon Graham as their PG.  While Rozier has his warts, he is very likely better than any of their other options, and it allows them to utilize them MLE to improve a different part of their team.  This is why I don’t think Charlotte would necessarily need draft considerations, especially if they realize that saying no to the deal means they just lose Kemba for nothing.  Certainly I don’t think they need anything too steep, as they aren’t taking back bad salary.

If this miraculously happened for the Celtics, they’d be subject to the hard cap, but with most of their roster filled out they should be able to survive that constraint.

Also, if Charlotte has no interest in Rozier, the Celtics could loop in Phoenix, using Baynes’ outgoing salary to make up most of the extra salary needed on top of Kyrie’s deal.  Charlotte would then get their choice of Ojeleye, Robert Williams, or Yabusele (one never knows who Jordan would want), and Phoenix would presumably get cash for playing along.  This deal would be a little more complex (four teams instead of three and the rules that are involved with such trades), but it is an option if Charlotte isn’t interested in Rozier or vice versa.

Again, the likelihood of any of the above happening is incredibly low, but it’s not impossible, for those of you who want to be optimistic.

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2019, 02:31:22 PM »

Offline bdm860

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Again, the likelihood of any of the above happening is incredibly low, but it’s not impossible, for those of you who want to be optimistic.


After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2019, 02:33:19 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Again, the likelihood of any of the above happening is incredibly low, but it’s not impossible, for those of you who want to be optimistic.



Yes, thank you for summing up the tl;dr version in a gif.    ;D

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2019, 03:25:45 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Ya if I'm the nets and I watched the celtics reap the benefits of that KG trade for five years and I get to choose between draft picks and watching the celtics completely implode I'm picking implode. Kemba, Horford and run it back is a competitor, Kemba with no way to bring back Horford and rozier+Morris renounced is not.

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2019, 03:28:46 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Ya if I'm the nets and I watched the celtics reap the benefits of that KG trade for five years and I get to choose between draft picks and watching the celtics completely implode I'm picking implode. Kemba, Horford and run it back is a competitor, Kemba with no way to bring back Horford and rozier+Morris renounced is not.

It is why I said this proposal is easier done with a Western Conference team. 

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2019, 03:38:12 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Dangercart has the best version of this trade.

https://twitter.com/dangercart/status/1143871379944738817

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2019, 03:44:19 PM »

Offline bdm860

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Ya if I'm the nets and I watched the celtics reap the benefits of that KG trade for five years and I get to choose between draft picks and watching the celtics completely implode I'm picking implode. Kemba, Horford and run it back is a competitor, Kemba with no way to bring back Horford and rozier+Morris renounced is not.

The way I envision it, it would be something Kyrie would push for.

Not something I'd expect for a guy who only spent 2 years here, and apparently isn't leaving on the greatest of terms, and has said he doesn't owe anyone anything. 

But maybe in a moment of zen like nirvana, where Kyrie looks back at Boston as a good place but bad fit, and remembers the promise to fans, and wants to put that positive energy back into the universe, he demands that Brooklyn do the sign-and-trade or he'll sign with the Knicks or the Lakers instead.

That's how I dream it anyway.

After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2019, 03:50:42 PM »

Offline dreamgreen

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TP I like the out of the box thinking. Not sure it will happen but I can see other deals they do happen like this. I'm actually excited about free agency and seeing what the Celts do.

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2019, 04:06:07 PM »

Offline byennie

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Let's extort the Lakers for Kuzma to make it work.
But, I don't think Kyrie wants to play 3rd fiddle in LA.

This is also interesting though for signing someone *other* than Horford. Could easily absorb someone like Porzingis from Dallas (S&T for a future 1st)?

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2019, 04:13:23 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Let's extort the Lakers for Kuzma to make it work.
But, I don't think Kyrie wants to play 3rd fiddle in LA.

This is also interesting though for signing someone *other* than Horford. Could easily absorb someone like Porzingis from Dallas (S&T for a future 1st)?

Yes, you could also do this with Horford’s new deal, even just with a trade exception.  Probably not going to get Porzingis with a simple first, however, since Dallas just gave up multiple firsts and took on bad salary just for Porzingis’ RFA rights.

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2019, 04:16:16 PM »

Offline byennie

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Let's extort the Lakers for Kuzma to make it work.
But, I don't think Kyrie wants to play 3rd fiddle in LA.

This is also interesting though for signing someone *other* than Horford. Could easily absorb someone like Porzingis from Dallas (S&T for a future 1st)?

Yes, you could also do this with Horford’s new deal, even just with a trade exception.  Probably not going to get Porzingis with a simple first, however, since Dallas just gave up multiple firsts and took on bad salary just for Porzingis’ RFA rights.

Yeah, that's fair on 'Zinger. Maybe there's another that's not a clear max free agent but would be a big win from the exception.

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2019, 04:21:06 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think there is a better chance I get hit by lightning while simultaneously getting bit by a shark than there is of a double sign and trade happening in the league, but TP for at least getting all the numbers right. We don't see that very often with the recent influx of sign and trade ideas.

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2019, 04:29:14 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Ya if I'm the nets and I watched the celtics reap the benefits of that KG trade for five years and I get to choose between draft picks and watching the celtics completely implode I'm picking implode. Kemba, Horford and run it back is a competitor, Kemba with no way to bring back Horford and rozier+Morris renounced is not.

It is why I said this proposal is easier done with a Western Conference team.

Oh for sure. I'm just in a bad place where I honestly can't believe anything good would happen for this team right now.

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2019, 04:57:53 PM »

Offline CBS_Take a Report

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In the very long Kemba thread, every few pages someone asks/assumes that Horford will return if we sign Kemba, and then someone else reminds/informs that person that we are using cap space created by Horford’s departure to pursue Kemba.  And while that is largely correct, it is possible for Horford to resign with the Celtics at the amount he is rumored to be seeking and sign Kemba to a max deal.  It doesn’t even necessitate trading Hayward or anyone else in the rotation as of today.  It is certainly unlikely to occur, but if it did, it would be a farewell gift from Kyrie.  Here’s how:

Celtics re-sign Horford, receive Kemba Walker in a sign-and-trade for the max.

Kyrie finds his new home via a S&T, his new team gets future draft considerations for helping out.

Charlotte signs Terry Rozier via a S&T to a contract between $12 million and $21.25 million in year 1 (those two can negotiate the exact amount, that’s just what works CBA-wise to match salaries, and is clearly in the range of a deal Rozier would seek).  Charlotte might also receive draft considerations.

Explanation:

In order to acquire Kemba via a S&T, Boston would either need a trade exemption equal to Walker’s year 1 salary ($32.7 million) or would need to send $26.08 million in outgoing salaries.  Boston doesn’t exactly have those salaries to offer from its current roster (aside from Hayward), but it could use Kyrie’s signing to account for approximately $20.1 million of that amount (his salary from last year).  Thus they would need to only send out another $6 million in salary to match Kemba’s incoming salary.  I propose that Rozier could be this additional salary, although his salary would only count half for matching purposes because he’s be getting a significant raise from last year, this his starting salary would need to be at least $12 million.

Why for Celtics:

I think this is obvious, but replacing Kyrie with Kemba while keeping Al and most other key pieces would be pretty much the best we could hope for at this point.

Why for Kyrie’s new team:

Get draft picks for someone you were going to sign anyway leaves you in a better position than when you started.  That said, the negotiation is probably easier if Kyrie goes to a Western Conference team, who won’t be worried about potentially helping the Celtics, and easiest if Kyrie goes to the Lakers, since they’d need to make a trade to accommodate his salary anyway (if it is even possible for them at all).

Why for Charlotte:

If Kemba leaves, they become a capped out team with only TreVeon Graham as their PG.  While Rozier has his warts, he is very likely better than any of their other options, and it allows them to utilize them MLE to improve a different part of their team.  This is why I don’t think Charlotte would necessarily need draft considerations, especially if they realize that saying no to the deal means they just lose Kemba for nothing.  Certainly I don’t think they need anything too steep, as they aren’t taking back bad salary.

If this miraculously happened for the Celtics, they’d be subject to the hard cap, but with most of their roster filled out they should be able to survive that constraint.

Also, if Charlotte has no interest in Rozier, the Celtics could loop in Phoenix, using Baynes’ outgoing salary to make up most of the extra salary needed on top of Kyrie’s deal.  Charlotte would then get their choice of Ojeleye, Robert Williams, or Yabusele (one never knows who Jordan would want), and Phoenix would presumably get cash for playing along.  This deal would be a little more complex (four teams instead of three and the rules that are involved with such trades), but it is an option if Charlotte isn’t interested in Rozier or vice versa.

Again, the likelihood of any of the above happening is incredibly low, but it’s not impossible, for those of you who want to be optimistic.

First all, let me add to your Scrooge McDuck pile of Tommy Points for this write up. Thank you as your posts are always well thought out and typically accurate.

This team would certainly be a contender but the long term implications of hard cap and repeater taxes, while it doesn't affect our wallets, it does eventually drive budget decisions by management. I'm starting to sour on the idea of bringing Al back unless it is on a 3 year (or less) deal and he of course wants his last 3+ year contract (preferably 4).

I'm growing increasingly enamored with the idea of Steven Adams. Not only from a basketball sense, but I just feel like I would thoroughly enjoy watching his hustle and style of play. I loved Aron Baynes but I feel like Stephen Adams is Baynes and then some.

I assume the only way to acquire Steven Adams is we lose someone currently on the roster or either Al or Scary Terry go out in a S&T?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 05:09:39 PM by CBS_Take a Report »

Re: Keep Al, Sign Kemba idea that works within cap rules
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2019, 05:08:05 PM »

Offline No Nickname

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Ya if I'm the nets and I watched the celtics reap the benefits of that KG trade for five years and I get to choose between draft picks and watching the celtics completely implode I'm picking implode. Kemba, Horford and run it back is a competitor, Kemba with no way to bring back Horford and rozier+Morris renounced is not.

It is why I said this proposal is easier done with a Western Conference team.

And why are you not working for the Celtic's front office?  Seriously, Mike Zarren would kill to have someone like you.