Author Topic: Patriots 2020 Season  (Read 78303 times)

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Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #330 on: November 10, 2020, 02:26:55 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think at some point in the first half Cam had to come up to the line before the snap, look left and see Byrd and Olshevski, looked right and saw Meyers and Izzo and thought:

"Now I know why Tom went to Tampa!"

Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #331 on: November 10, 2020, 04:26:33 PM »

Online ozgod

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Is undrafted FA Jakobi Meyers seriously that much better than 1st round pick N'Keal Harry? Ouch

Maybe he's got a bigger heart.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #332 on: November 10, 2020, 04:55:32 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Is undrafted FA Jakobi Meyers seriously that much better than 1st round pick N'Keal Harry? Ouch

Maybe he's got a bigger heart.

I don't know about heart, that is tough to judge, but Meyers is certainly more durable so far.   Lack of durability is a problem but really isn't anyone's fault.

Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #333 on: November 10, 2020, 07:49:49 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Is undrafted FA Jakobi Meyers seriously that much better than 1st round pick N'Keal Harry? Ouch

Maybe he's got a bigger heart.

I don't know about heart, that is tough to judge, but Meyers is certainly more durable so far.   Lack of durability is a problem but really isn't anyone's fault.
A couple weeks back one of the color analysts stated Harry had concussion problems going back to early high school. I got to wonder if the Pats knew about those issues when they drafted him. Did Belichick draft him knowing he had a history of concussions going back years?

Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #334 on: November 10, 2020, 07:55:15 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Is undrafted FA Jakobi Meyers seriously that much better than 1st round pick N'Keal Harry? Ouch

Maybe he's got a bigger heart.

I don't know about heart, that is tough to judge, but Meyers is certainly more durable so far.   Lack of durability is a problem but really isn't anyone's fault.
A couple weeks back one of the color analysts stated Harry had concussion problems going back to early high school. I got to wonder if the Pats knew about those issues when they drafted him. Did Belichick draft him knowing he had a history of concussions going back years?
That really would be the icing on top of taking him ahead of McLaurin, Metcalf, Brown, Samuel, Ridley, Renfrow and Slayton
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #335 on: November 10, 2020, 11:47:34 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Is undrafted FA Jakobi Meyers seriously that much better than 1st round pick N'Keal Harry? Ouch

Maybe he's got a bigger heart.

I don't know about heart, that is tough to judge, but Meyers is certainly more durable so far.   Lack of durability is a problem but really isn't anyone's fault.
A couple weeks back one of the color analysts stated Harry had concussion problems going back to early high school. I got to wonder if the Pats knew about those issues when they drafted him. Did Belichick draft him knowing he had a history of concussions going back years?
That really would be the icing on top of taking him ahead of McLaurin, Metcalf, Brown, Samuel, Ridley, Renfrow and Slayton
I was one that wasn't going to jump all over the Harry pick after just 1.5 seasons, but after hearing that concussion injury history on Harry, well then, yeah that's just like pouring alcohol on an open wound.

Those late first round picks of Bill's have bordered on terrible. Wynn(always injured). Michel(always injured and performance not good). Harry(see above). They have all shown a flash of what Belichick saw in them but that's it. Injuries and unimpressive play have ruled the roost.

Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #336 on: November 11, 2020, 09:41:12 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Is undrafted FA Jakobi Meyers seriously that much better than 1st round pick N'Keal Harry? Ouch

Maybe he's got a bigger heart.

I don't know about heart, that is tough to judge, but Meyers is certainly more durable so far.   Lack of durability is a problem but really isn't anyone's fault.
A couple weeks back one of the color analysts stated Harry had concussion problems going back to early high school. I got to wonder if the Pats knew about those issues when they drafted him. Did Belichick draft him knowing he had a history of concussions going back years?
That really would be the icing on top of taking him ahead of McLaurin, Metcalf, Brown, Samuel, Ridley, Renfrow and Slayton
I was one that wasn't going to jump all over the Harry pick after just 1.5 seasons, but after hearing that concussion injury history on Harry, well then, yeah that's just like pouring alcohol on an open wound.

Those late first round picks of Bill's have bordered on terrible. Wynn(always injured). Michel(always injured and performance not good). Harry(see above). They have all shown a flash of what Belichick saw in them but that's it. Injuries and unimpressive play have ruled the roost.
From my recollection the Patriots haven't drafted well in years.  I mean seriously look at the drafting history.  Very few good draft picks since like 2013 (that one was pretty good with Collins, Ryan, and Harmon).  Even going back further there have been some great players, but a lot of Bill's picks have been terrible.  He isn't a very good drafter and never really has been.  He does a great job finding players off the scrap heap (so to speak), but drafting has never been Bill's strong suit.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

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Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #337 on: November 11, 2020, 01:27:05 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Is undrafted FA Jakobi Meyers seriously that much better than 1st round pick N'Keal Harry? Ouch

Maybe he's got a bigger heart.

I don't know about heart, that is tough to judge, but Meyers is certainly more durable so far.   Lack of durability is a problem but really isn't anyone's fault.
A couple weeks back one of the color analysts stated Harry had concussion problems going back to early high school. I got to wonder if the Pats knew about those issues when they drafted him. Did Belichick draft him knowing he had a history of concussions going back years?
That really would be the icing on top of taking him ahead of McLaurin, Metcalf, Brown, Samuel, Ridley, Renfrow and Slayton
I was one that wasn't going to jump all over the Harry pick after just 1.5 seasons, but after hearing that concussion injury history on Harry, well then, yeah that's just like pouring alcohol on an open wound.

Those late first round picks of Bill's have bordered on terrible. Wynn(always injured). Michel(always injured and performance not good). Harry(see above). They have all shown a flash of what Belichick saw in them but that's it. Injuries and unimpressive play have ruled the roost.
From my recollection the Patriots haven't drafted well in years.  I mean seriously look at the drafting history.  Very few good draft picks since like 2013 (that one was pretty good with Collins, Ryan, and Harmon).  Even going back further there have been some great players, but a lot of Bill's picks have been terrible.  He isn't a very good drafter and never really has been.  He does a great job finding players off the scrap heap (so to speak), but drafting has never been Bill's strong suit.
Drafting is a relative weakness for Belichick and the last 5 years have been horrible, but he’s been at the very least an above average drafter.

There are a lot of misses in the draft. Bills got more value relative to draft position than most by any decent metric.
Quote from: George W. Bush
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Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #338 on: November 11, 2020, 04:02:58 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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I agree that Bill has some serious flaws with drafting. Granted, the Pats usually don't have any high draft picks, but the NFL draft is deep, there's good talent available across all college divisions, and the Pats usually have a large number of picks, so it seems like there would be more hits, especially among receivers, but Bill has fared really poorly there. He also has a tendency to draft guys who slide down due to significant injury history, looking at them as potential low-risk/high-reward options, guys like Dominique Easley, but those usually don't pan out. Something's going to have to change, because the Pats receiving and TE corps are horrible. It's really frustrating to look around the league and see just about every other team come up with some unexpectedly good find at receiver, and NE is still mostly whiffing.
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Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #339 on: November 11, 2020, 04:09:42 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Is undrafted FA Jakobi Meyers seriously that much better than 1st round pick N'Keal Harry? Ouch

Maybe he's got a bigger heart.

I don't know about heart, that is tough to judge, but Meyers is certainly more durable so far.   Lack of durability is a problem but really isn't anyone's fault.
A couple weeks back one of the color analysts stated Harry had concussion problems going back to early high school. I got to wonder if the Pats knew about those issues when they drafted him. Did Belichick draft him knowing he had a history of concussions going back years?
That really would be the icing on top of taking him ahead of McLaurin, Metcalf, Brown, Samuel, Ridley, Renfrow and Slayton
I was one that wasn't going to jump all over the Harry pick after just 1.5 seasons, but after hearing that concussion injury history on Harry, well then, yeah that's just like pouring alcohol on an open wound.

Those late first round picks of Bill's have bordered on terrible. Wynn(always injured). Michel(always injured and performance not good). Harry(see above). They have all shown a flash of what Belichick saw in them but that's it. Injuries and unimpressive play have ruled the roost.
From my recollection the Patriots haven't drafted well in years.  I mean seriously look at the drafting history.  Very few good draft picks since like 2013 (that one was pretty good with Collins, Ryan, and Harmon).  Even going back further there have been some great players, but a lot of Bill's picks have been terrible.  He isn't a very good drafter and never really has been.  He does a great job finding players off the scrap heap (so to speak), but drafting has never been Bill's strong suit.
Drafting is a relative weakness for Belichick and the last 5 years have been horrible, but he’s been at the very least an above average drafter.

There are a lot of misses in the draft. Bills got more value relative to draft position than most by any decent metric.
But he has failed at the top.  These are the Patriots 1st round picks since Bill took over as coach.

Richard Seymour
Daniel Graham
Ty Warren
Vince Wilfork
Ben Watson
Logan Mankins
Laurence Maroney
Brandon Meriweather
Jerod Mayo
Devin McCourty
Nate Soldier
Chandler Jones
Dont'a Hightower
Dominque Easley
Malcolm Brown
Isaiah Winn
Sony Michel
N'Keal Harry

Some absolutely great players, but a lot of 1st round duds.  And the later rounds aren't much different.  Bill's teams are average at best at drafting.  It has never been a strong suit.

For the record, a team like the Ravens is a great drafting team and here are there 1st round picks in the same timeframe.  You will notice a huge difference in the hit ratio

Jamal Lewis
Travis Taylor
Todd Heap
Ed Reed
Terrell Suggs
Mark Clayton
Haloti Ngata
Ben Grubbs
Joe Flacco
Michael Oher
Jimmy Smith
Matt Elam
CJ Mosley
Breshad Perriman
Ronnie Stanley
Marlon Humphrey
Hayden Hurst
Lamar Jackson
Marquise Brown
Patrick Queen

Just a pure quality difference.  And sure some of the Ravens picks are higher up, but a lot of them are in the same general range as the Pats.   

The reality is the Patriots get very little talent from the draft which isn't sustainable long term.  They got away with it for years because they had a top 3 QB in the game (who is of course the greatest QB ever), but when you don't have the top 3 QB, the drafting flaws become far more problematic.  The Pats just don't draft well and haven't basically Bill's entire time there.

The initial 3 title teams were built mostly on the players from the mid-90's drafts under Parcells (and a lesser extent when Carroll was coach) - except for Brady of course.  Bill coached them up, but he didn't bring them to the team.  The more recent teams have been built on free agency with only a few of the cornerstones like Brady and Gronk being brought in through the draft.  And that is the reason Pats fans should be nervous.  Bill doesn't have the all time great QB anymore to carry the team through a pretty poor drafting record. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #340 on: November 11, 2020, 04:11:34 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think we've long passed the point when the Pats need to consider bringing in some new perspective when it comes to drafting. 

Bill is a very good coach, and he's quite good at finding solid character guys to fill out the back half of a roster.  It's clear by now that he's pretty bad at finding starting caliber talent in the first few rounds.


Getting guys with good character who will "do their job" is important, but it's even more important to have talented players who can actually stay on the field.
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Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #341 on: November 11, 2020, 04:23:48 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Is undrafted FA Jakobi Meyers seriously that much better than 1st round pick N'Keal Harry? Ouch

Maybe he's got a bigger heart.

I don't know about heart, that is tough to judge, but Meyers is certainly more durable so far.   Lack of durability is a problem but really isn't anyone's fault.
A couple weeks back one of the color analysts stated Harry had concussion problems going back to early high school. I got to wonder if the Pats knew about those issues when they drafted him. Did Belichick draft him knowing he had a history of concussions going back years?
That really would be the icing on top of taking him ahead of McLaurin, Metcalf, Brown, Samuel, Ridley, Renfrow and Slayton
I was one that wasn't going to jump all over the Harry pick after just 1.5 seasons, but after hearing that concussion injury history on Harry, well then, yeah that's just like pouring alcohol on an open wound.

Those late first round picks of Bill's have bordered on terrible. Wynn(always injured). Michel(always injured and performance not good). Harry(see above). They have all shown a flash of what Belichick saw in them but that's it. Injuries and unimpressive play have ruled the roost.
From my recollection the Patriots haven't drafted well in years.  I mean seriously look at the drafting history.  Very few good draft picks since like 2013 (that one was pretty good with Collins, Ryan, and Harmon).  Even going back further there have been some great players, but a lot of Bill's picks have been terrible.  He isn't a very good drafter and never really has been.  He does a great job finding players off the scrap heap (so to speak), but drafting has never been Bill's strong suit.
Drafting is a relative weakness for Belichick and the last 5 years have been horrible, but he’s been at the very least an above average drafter.

There are a lot of misses in the draft. Bills got more value relative to draft position than most by any decent metric.
But he has failed at the top.  These are the Patriots 1st round picks since Bill took over as coach.

Richard Seymour
Daniel Graham
Ty Warren
Vince Wilfork
Ben Watson
Logan Mankins
Laurence Maroney
Brandon Meriweather
Jerod Mayo
Devin McCourty
Nate Soldier
Chandler Jones
Dont'a Hightower
Dominque Easley
Malcolm Brown
Isaiah Winn
Sony Michel
N'Keal Harry

Some absolutely great players, but a lot of 1st round duds.  And the later rounds aren't much different.  Bill's teams are average at best at drafting.  It has never been a strong suit.

For the record, a team like the Ravens is a great drafting team and here are there 1st round picks in the same timeframe.  You will notice a huge difference in the hit ratio

Jamal Lewis
Travis Taylor
Todd Heap
Ed Reed
Terrell Suggs
Mark Clayton
Haloti Ngata
Ben Grubbs
Joe Flacco
Michael Oher
Jimmy Smith
Matt Elam
CJ Mosley
Breshad Perriman
Ronnie Stanley
Marlon Humphrey
Hayden Hurst
Lamar Jackson
Marquise Brown
Patrick Queen

Just a pure quality difference.  And sure some of the Ravens picks are higher up, but a lot of them are in the same general range as the Pats.   

The reality is the Patriots get very little talent from the draft which isn't sustainable long term.  They got away with it for years because they had a top 3 QB in the game (who is of course the greatest QB ever), but when you don't have the top 3 QB, the drafting flaws become far more problematic.  The Pats just don't draft well and haven't basically Bill's entire time there.

The initial 3 title teams were built mostly on the players from the mid-90's drafts under Parcells (and a lesser extent when Carroll was coach) - except for Brady of course.  Bill coached them up, but he didn't bring them to the team.  The more recent teams have been built on free agency with only a few of the cornerstones like Brady and Gronk being brought in through the draft.  And that is the reason Pats fans should be nervous.  Bill doesn't have the all time great QB anymore to carry the team through a pretty poor drafting record.
That is not the reality

The reality is that relative to draft position over the last 20 years New England has performed well above league average

Since about 2014 they haven’t, which is a long enough stretch to be concerned. However even in the 2010-2019 9 year stretch they check in around 8th or 9th in value relative to draft position.

Some teams draft better. Pittsburgh and Baltimore spring to mind, but historically Bill has been very good.

Now is the recent lull long enough to give real concern that maybe this isn’t a sample size issue and is instead an outdated philosophy? Absolutely I’d say so.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #342 on: November 11, 2020, 04:41:23 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Is undrafted FA Jakobi Meyers seriously that much better than 1st round pick N'Keal Harry? Ouch

Maybe he's got a bigger heart.

I don't know about heart, that is tough to judge, but Meyers is certainly more durable so far.   Lack of durability is a problem but really isn't anyone's fault.
A couple weeks back one of the color analysts stated Harry had concussion problems going back to early high school. I got to wonder if the Pats knew about those issues when they drafted him. Did Belichick draft him knowing he had a history of concussions going back years?
That really would be the icing on top of taking him ahead of McLaurin, Metcalf, Brown, Samuel, Ridley, Renfrow and Slayton
I was one that wasn't going to jump all over the Harry pick after just 1.5 seasons, but after hearing that concussion injury history on Harry, well then, yeah that's just like pouring alcohol on an open wound.

Those late first round picks of Bill's have bordered on terrible. Wynn(always injured). Michel(always injured and performance not good). Harry(see above). They have all shown a flash of what Belichick saw in them but that's it. Injuries and unimpressive play have ruled the roost.
From my recollection the Patriots haven't drafted well in years.  I mean seriously look at the drafting history.  Very few good draft picks since like 2013 (that one was pretty good with Collins, Ryan, and Harmon).  Even going back further there have been some great players, but a lot of Bill's picks have been terrible.  He isn't a very good drafter and never really has been.  He does a great job finding players off the scrap heap (so to speak), but drafting has never been Bill's strong suit.
Drafting is a relative weakness for Belichick and the last 5 years have been horrible, but he’s been at the very least an above average drafter.

There are a lot of misses in the draft. Bills got more value relative to draft position than most by any decent metric.
But he has failed at the top.  These are the Patriots 1st round picks since Bill took over as coach.

Richard Seymour
Daniel Graham
Ty Warren
Vince Wilfork
Ben Watson
Logan Mankins
Laurence Maroney
Brandon Meriweather
Jerod Mayo
Devin McCourty
Nate Soldier
Chandler Jones
Dont'a Hightower
Dominque Easley
Malcolm Brown
Isaiah Winn
Sony Michel
N'Keal Harry

Some absolutely great players, but a lot of 1st round duds.  And the later rounds aren't much different.  Bill's teams are average at best at drafting.  It has never been a strong suit.

For the record, a team like the Ravens is a great drafting team and here are there 1st round picks in the same timeframe.  You will notice a huge difference in the hit ratio

Jamal Lewis
Travis Taylor
Todd Heap
Ed Reed
Terrell Suggs
Mark Clayton
Haloti Ngata
Ben Grubbs
Joe Flacco
Michael Oher
Jimmy Smith
Matt Elam
CJ Mosley
Breshad Perriman
Ronnie Stanley
Marlon Humphrey
Hayden Hurst
Lamar Jackson
Marquise Brown
Patrick Queen

Just a pure quality difference.  And sure some of the Ravens picks are higher up, but a lot of them are in the same general range as the Pats.   

The reality is the Patriots get very little talent from the draft which isn't sustainable long term.  They got away with it for years because they had a top 3 QB in the game (who is of course the greatest QB ever), but when you don't have the top 3 QB, the drafting flaws become far more problematic.  The Pats just don't draft well and haven't basically Bill's entire time there.

The initial 3 title teams were built mostly on the players from the mid-90's drafts under Parcells (and a lesser extent when Carroll was coach) - except for Brady of course.  Bill coached them up, but he didn't bring them to the team.  The more recent teams have been built on free agency with only a few of the cornerstones like Brady and Gronk being brought in through the draft.  And that is the reason Pats fans should be nervous.  Bill doesn't have the all time great QB anymore to carry the team through a pretty poor drafting record.
That is not the reality

The reality is that relative to draft position over the last 20 years New England has performed well above league average

Since about 2014 they haven’t, which is a long enough stretch to be concerned. However even in the 2010-2019 9 year stretch they check in around 8th or 9th in value relative to draft position.

Some teams draft better. Pittsburgh and Baltimore spring to mind, but historically Bill has been very good.

Now is the recent lull long enough to give real concern that maybe this isn’t a sample size issue and is instead an outdated philosophy? Absolutely I’d say so.
In 2010, they had 12 draft picks, only 3 played in 100 games (McCourty, Gronk, Larsen).  One other hit 75 games (Spikes).  One guy hit exactly 60 (Deaderick).  That just isn't good.  Now Hernandez was in that draft and his 38 games, but that isn't great. 

They did better with their 9 picks in 2011 with again 3 guys hitting 100 games (Solder, Cannon, Smith) and two guys at 73 or more (Ridley, Vereen) but no one else played more than 23 games (including 12 games from a 2nd round pick).

Only had 7 picks in 2012, but have 4 guys hit 100 games (Jones, Hightower, Wilson, Ebner).  No one else hit 30 though.

7 picks again in 2013 and 3 guys at 100 games (Collins, Ryan, Harmon), but no one else hit even 25 and they are all out of the league (except the first 3)

2014 - just 4 players remain in the league Grappolo, White, Fleming, Halapio.  Halapio has played in just 27 games though.

They had 11 picks in 2015 and 5 of them are out of the league, two without playing a single game. 

That continues on.  They have some great hits, but they don't draft depth well at all. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #343 on: November 11, 2020, 04:51:56 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Is undrafted FA Jakobi Meyers seriously that much better than 1st round pick N'Keal Harry? Ouch

Maybe he's got a bigger heart.

I don't know about heart, that is tough to judge, but Meyers is certainly more durable so far.   Lack of durability is a problem but really isn't anyone's fault.
A couple weeks back one of the color analysts stated Harry had concussion problems going back to early high school. I got to wonder if the Pats knew about those issues when they drafted him. Did Belichick draft him knowing he had a history of concussions going back years?
That really would be the icing on top of taking him ahead of McLaurin, Metcalf, Brown, Samuel, Ridley, Renfrow and Slayton
I was one that wasn't going to jump all over the Harry pick after just 1.5 seasons, but after hearing that concussion injury history on Harry, well then, yeah that's just like pouring alcohol on an open wound.

Those late first round picks of Bill's have bordered on terrible. Wynn(always injured). Michel(always injured and performance not good). Harry(see above). They have all shown a flash of what Belichick saw in them but that's it. Injuries and unimpressive play have ruled the roost.
From my recollection the Patriots haven't drafted well in years.  I mean seriously look at the drafting history.  Very few good draft picks since like 2013 (that one was pretty good with Collins, Ryan, and Harmon).  Even going back further there have been some great players, but a lot of Bill's picks have been terrible.  He isn't a very good drafter and never really has been.  He does a great job finding players off the scrap heap (so to speak), but drafting has never been Bill's strong suit.
Drafting is a relative weakness for Belichick and the last 5 years have been horrible, but he’s been at the very least an above average drafter.

There are a lot of misses in the draft. Bills got more value relative to draft position than most by any decent metric.
But he has failed at the top.  These are the Patriots 1st round picks since Bill took over as coach.

Richard Seymour
Daniel Graham
Ty Warren
Vince Wilfork
Ben Watson
Logan Mankins
Laurence Maroney
Brandon Meriweather
Jerod Mayo
Devin McCourty
Nate Soldier
Chandler Jones
Dont'a Hightower
Dominque Easley
Malcolm Brown
Isaiah Winn
Sony Michel
N'Keal Harry

Some absolutely great players, but a lot of 1st round duds.  And the later rounds aren't much different.  Bill's teams are average at best at drafting.  It has never been a strong suit.

For the record, a team like the Ravens is a great drafting team and here are there 1st round picks in the same timeframe.  You will notice a huge difference in the hit ratio

Jamal Lewis
Travis Taylor
Todd Heap
Ed Reed
Terrell Suggs
Mark Clayton
Haloti Ngata
Ben Grubbs
Joe Flacco
Michael Oher
Jimmy Smith
Matt Elam
CJ Mosley
Breshad Perriman
Ronnie Stanley
Marlon Humphrey
Hayden Hurst
Lamar Jackson
Marquise Brown
Patrick Queen

Just a pure quality difference.  And sure some of the Ravens picks are higher up, but a lot of them are in the same general range as the Pats.   

The reality is the Patriots get very little talent from the draft which isn't sustainable long term.  They got away with it for years because they had a top 3 QB in the game (who is of course the greatest QB ever), but when you don't have the top 3 QB, the drafting flaws become far more problematic.  The Pats just don't draft well and haven't basically Bill's entire time there.

The initial 3 title teams were built mostly on the players from the mid-90's drafts under Parcells (and a lesser extent when Carroll was coach) - except for Brady of course.  Bill coached them up, but he didn't bring them to the team.  The more recent teams have been built on free agency with only a few of the cornerstones like Brady and Gronk being brought in through the draft.  And that is the reason Pats fans should be nervous.  Bill doesn't have the all time great QB anymore to carry the team through a pretty poor drafting record.
That is not the reality

The reality is that relative to draft position over the last 20 years New England has performed well above league average

Since about 2014 they haven’t, which is a long enough stretch to be concerned. However even in the 2010-2019 9 year stretch they check in around 8th or 9th in value relative to draft position.

Some teams draft better. Pittsburgh and Baltimore spring to mind, but historically Bill has been very good.

Now is the recent lull long enough to give real concern that maybe this isn’t a sample size issue and is instead an outdated philosophy? Absolutely I’d say so.
In 2010, they had 12 draft picks, only 3 played in 100 games (McCourty, Gronk, Larsen).  One other hit 75 games (Spikes).  One guy hit exactly 60 (Deaderick).  That just isn't good.  Now Hernandez was in that draft and his 38 games, but that isn't great. 

They did better with their 9 picks in 2011 with again 3 guys hitting 100 games (Solder, Cannon, Smith) and two guys at 73 or more (Ridley, Vereen) but no one else played more than 23 games (including 12 games from a 2nd round pick).

Only had 7 picks in 2012, but have 4 guys hit 100 games (Jones, Hightower, Wilson, Ebner).  No one else hit 30 though.

7 picks again in 2013 and 3 guys at 100 games (Collins, Ryan, Harmon), but no one else hit even 25 and they are all out of the league (except the first 3)

2014 - just 4 players remain in the league Grappolo, White, Fleming, Halapio.  Halapio has played in just 27 games though.

They had 11 picks in 2015 and 5 of them are out of the league, two without playing a single game. 

That continues on.  They have some great hits, but they don't draft depth well at all.
Any draft with McCourty and Gronkowski is great. End of discussion. If you come away from that draft and shrug your shoulders and say "poor draft" then yeah. Bill sucks. I think your bar is just too high.

Everybody has misses. I'm not at all arguing they haven't been poor in the last few drafts. 2017-2019 specifically have been horrible. But over his time in New England he's been above average. Probably not top 5 but in that 5-10 range. Football outsiders has a nice piece on value vs. position and Bill grades well. A few others have conducted similar analysis over the years and concluded the same thing.

I'll hear the argument that maybe a philosophy change is necessary because recently they haven't gotten it done. But if the argument is that they've never been good then that's not something I can agree with. They've been plus drafters for nearly 20 years.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Patriots 2020 Season
« Reply #344 on: November 11, 2020, 11:44:39 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Is undrafted FA Jakobi Meyers seriously that much better than 1st round pick N'Keal Harry? Ouch

Maybe he's got a bigger heart.

I don't know about heart, that is tough to judge, but Meyers is certainly more durable so far.   Lack of durability is a problem but really isn't anyone's fault.
A couple weeks back one of the color analysts stated Harry had concussion problems going back to early high school. I got to wonder if the Pats knew about those issues when they drafted him. Did Belichick draft him knowing he had a history of concussions going back years?
That really would be the icing on top of taking him ahead of McLaurin, Metcalf, Brown, Samuel, Ridley, Renfrow and Slayton
I was one that wasn't going to jump all over the Harry pick after just 1.5 seasons, but after hearing that concussion injury history on Harry, well then, yeah that's just like pouring alcohol on an open wound.

Those late first round picks of Bill's have bordered on terrible. Wynn(always injured). Michel(always injured and performance not good). Harry(see above). They have all shown a flash of what Belichick saw in them but that's it. Injuries and unimpressive play have ruled the roost.
From my recollection the Patriots haven't drafted well in years.  I mean seriously look at the drafting history.  Very few good draft picks since like 2013 (that one was pretty good with Collins, Ryan, and Harmon).  Even going back further there have been some great players, but a lot of Bill's picks have been terrible.  He isn't a very good drafter and never really has been.  He does a great job finding players off the scrap heap (so to speak), but drafting has never been Bill's strong suit.
Drafting is a relative weakness for Belichick and the last 5 years have been horrible, but he’s been at the very least an above average drafter.

There are a lot of misses in the draft. Bills got more value relative to draft position than most by any decent metric.
But he has failed at the top.  These are the Patriots 1st round picks since Bill took over as coach.

Richard Seymour
Daniel Graham
Ty Warren
Vince Wilfork
Ben Watson
Logan Mankins
Laurence Maroney
Brandon Meriweather
Jerod Mayo
Devin McCourty
Nate Soldier
Chandler Jones
Dont'a Hightower
Dominque Easley
Malcolm Brown
Isaiah Winn
Sony Michel
N'Keal Harry

Some absolutely great players, but a lot of 1st round duds.  And the later rounds aren't much different.  Bill's teams are average at best at drafting.  It has never been a strong suit.

For the record, a team like the Ravens is a great drafting team and here are there 1st round picks in the same timeframe.  You will notice a huge difference in the hit ratio

Jamal Lewis
Travis Taylor
Todd Heap
Ed Reed
Terrell Suggs
Mark Clayton
Haloti Ngata
Ben Grubbs
Joe Flacco
Michael Oher
Jimmy Smith
Matt Elam
CJ Mosley
Breshad Perriman
Ronnie Stanley
Marlon Humphrey
Hayden Hurst
Lamar Jackson
Marquise Brown
Patrick Queen

Just a pure quality difference.  And sure some of the Ravens picks are higher up, but a lot of them are in the same general range as the Pats.   

The reality is the Patriots get very little talent from the draft which isn't sustainable long term.  They got away with it for years because they had a top 3 QB in the game (who is of course the greatest QB ever), but when you don't have the top 3 QB, the drafting flaws become far more problematic.  The Pats just don't draft well and haven't basically Bill's entire time there.

The initial 3 title teams were built mostly on the players from the mid-90's drafts under Parcells (and a lesser extent when Carroll was coach) - except for Brady of course.  Bill coached them up, but he didn't bring them to the team.  The more recent teams have been built on free agency with only a few of the cornerstones like Brady and Gronk being brought in through the draft.  And that is the reason Pats fans should be nervous.  Bill doesn't have the all time great QB anymore to carry the team through a pretty poor drafting record.
That is not the reality

The reality is that relative to draft position over the last 20 years New England has performed well above league average

Since about 2014 they haven’t, which is a long enough stretch to be concerned. However even in the 2010-2019 9 year stretch they check in around 8th or 9th in value relative to draft position.

Some teams draft better. Pittsburgh and Baltimore spring to mind, but historically Bill has been very good.

Now is the recent lull long enough to give real concern that maybe this isn’t a sample size issue and is instead an outdated philosophy? Absolutely I’d say so.
In 2010, they had 12 draft picks, only 3 played in 100 games (McCourty, Gronk, Larsen).  One other hit 75 games (Spikes).  One guy hit exactly 60 (Deaderick).  That just isn't good.  Now Hernandez was in that draft and his 38 games, but that isn't great. 

They did better with their 9 picks in 2011 with again 3 guys hitting 100 games (Solder, Cannon, Smith) and two guys at 73 or more (Ridley, Vereen) but no one else played more than 23 games (including 12 games from a 2nd round pick).

Only had 7 picks in 2012, but have 4 guys hit 100 games (Jones, Hightower, Wilson, Ebner).  No one else hit 30 though.

7 picks again in 2013 and 3 guys at 100 games (Collins, Ryan, Harmon), but no one else hit even 25 and they are all out of the league (except the first 3)

2014 - just 4 players remain in the league Grappolo, White, Fleming, Halapio.  Halapio has played in just 27 games though.

They had 11 picks in 2015 and 5 of them are out of the league, two without playing a single game. 

That continues on.  They have some great hits, but they don't draft depth well at all.
In what world is nabbing the GOAT tight end and a generational DB (Gronk & McCourty respectively) classified as anything but great?
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)