Do the Celtics have the match up C they need?

[Somebody]

I think what we're missing in Horford's innate ability; team defense, we're also making up for it with insane perimeter defense.

While, Theis will certainly not be playing this well cannot be sustainable, (4.6 blocks per 36,) defensively, the lack of a true C doesn't seem to be necessary since we play small ball anyways. Our best 5 is Hayward, Walker, Brown, Tatum, and Smart.

Celts tried that approach against the Sixers in the first game of the season.

The Celts ended up getting outrebounded by Philly 62-41.

Philly didn't even shoot well in that game.

Celtics only played that lineup for for 3 1/2 minutes during the Philly game though.

Here's a look at the box score as best as I could cut it.  They were -1, but even on rebounds.  Way too small of a sample to draw any conclusions.

That lineup has only played 5.2 minutes total across 2 games.  The other game was against Toronto and they were +2 in points, +3 in rebounds.

Overall +1 in points and +3 in rebounds!  Still way too small of a sample to draw any conclusions (and there were no super imposing big men on the floor for the other team at the time either, which helps).

Against the Knicks in Boston, the Celts gave up 16 offensive rebounds.

Right now it's a small sample size, but historically, Celts never won a championship without a dominant big man.

The NBA game has changed, but I still think having a quality to big man to defend the paint and get rebounds is still one of the ingredients for a championship team.

I don't think the Raptors would have won a championship if they didn't get Marc Gasol at the trade deadline.

Parish was hardly dominant. He was very good for a long period of time, but fringe All-NBA production isn't dominant at all. What we need is a transcendent talent plus good players at every position who can complement the centrepiece, or a collection of star talent ala the 08 Celtics (although Garnett was an MVP calibre big).

3400th post!

Come on, Robert Parish is a Hall of Famer.

Right now the Celts have excellent players in Kemba, Tatum, and Hayward.
Add Smart and Brown and the Celts have a Fab Five.
What the Celts need is a big man who can defend and get rebounds.

If only Kanter is decent on defense then there's no need for this discussion.

I saw the GSW vs. Portland series last season.

Kanter was awful on defense.
Steph Curry had a big series against Portland, averaging 36.5 points per game.
Reason was Kanter couldn't defend the pick and roll.
GSW was already executing the pick and roll near half-court.
Kanter was absolutely clueless on how to defend GSW's pick and roll.

Once the Celts get a quality big man, I wouldn't be surprised if it's LA vs. Boston in the Finals again.

Come on lad, KC Jones is also a Hall of Famer and no one in their right mind would say that he's anything more than a role player. Parish got into the Hall because he was one of the best third options ever for a dynasty and had sterling longevity. Let's not act like he was in the class of Kareem/Olajuwon (or even Mr. Overrated Moses Malone!) during the 80s, now those guys were dominant centres.

And you mean the Clippers? Yeah that makes sense

[Fierce1]

I think what we're missing in Horford's innate ability; team defense, we're also making up for it with insane perimeter defense.

While, Theis will certainly not be playing this well cannot be sustainable, (4.6 blocks per 36,) defensively, the lack of a true C doesn't seem to be necessary since we play small ball anyways. Our best 5 is Hayward, Walker, Brown, Tatum, and Smart.

Celts tried that approach against the Sixers in the first game of the season.

The Celts ended up getting outrebounded by Philly 62-41.

Philly didn't even shoot well in that game.

Celtics only played that lineup for for 3 1/2 minutes during the Philly game though.

Here's a look at the box score as best as I could cut it.  They were -1, but even on rebounds.  Way too small of a sample to draw any conclusions.

That lineup has only played 5.2 minutes total across 2 games.  The other game was against Toronto and they were +2 in points, +3 in rebounds.

Overall +1 in points and +3 in rebounds!  Still way too small of a sample to draw any conclusions (and there were no super imposing big men on the floor for the other team at the time either, which helps).

Against the Knicks in Boston, the Celts gave up 16 offensive rebounds.

Right now it's a small sample size, but historically, Celts never won a championship without a dominant big man.

The NBA game has changed, but I still think having a quality to big man to defend the paint and get rebounds is still one of the ingredients for a championship team.

I don't think the Raptors would have won a championship if they didn't get Marc Gasol at the trade deadline.

Parish was hardly dominant. He was very good for a long period of time, but fringe All-NBA production isn't dominant at all. What we need is a transcendent talent plus good players at every position who can complement the centrepiece, or a collection of star talent ala the 08 Celtics (although Garnett was an MVP calibre big).

3400th post!

Come on, Robert Parish is a Hall of Famer.

Right now the Celts have excellent players in Kemba, Tatum, and Hayward.
Add Smart and Brown and the Celts have a Fab Five.
What the Celts need is a big man who can defend and get rebounds.

If only Kanter is decent on defense then there's no need for this discussion.

I saw the GSW vs. Portland series last season.

Kanter was awful on defense.
Steph Curry had a big series against Portland, averaging 36.5 points per game.
Reason was Kanter couldn't defend the pick and roll.
GSW was already executing the pick and roll near half-court.
Kanter was absolutely clueless on how to defend GSW's pick and roll.

Once the Celts get a quality big man, I wouldn't be surprised if it's LA vs. Boston in the Finals again.

Come on lad, KC Jones is also a Hall of Famer and no one in their right mind would say that he's anything more than a role player. Parish got into the Hall because he was one of the best third options ever for a dynasty and had sterling longevity. Let's not act like he was in the class of Kareem/Olajuwon (or even Mr. Overrated Moses Malone!) during the 80s, now those guys were dominant centres.

And you mean the Clippers? Yeah that makes sense

Yes, Parish is not on the same level as Hakeem and Kareem, but Parish is a quality big man.

That's all I'm asking, a quality big man.
I'm not asking for someone like Hakeem or Kareem.

Like I what I keep saying, if Kanter is only decent on defense, this discussion wouldn't be necessary.

RWill can be the big man of the future for the Celts.
But right now he's still lacking experience.

Theis is solid, but he's just too short to guard Embiid or help contain Giannis.

What the Celts need is an upgrade like what the Raptors did last season at the trade deadline.
Without Marc Gasol, I don't think the Raptors would've advanced to the finals.
Raptors knew Marc Gasol was on the decline, but his experience and defensive abilities would help them in the playoffs.
That's why the Raptors swapped their young Center Valanciunas for the old Marc Gasol.

[Somebody]

I think what we're missing in Horford's innate ability; team defense, we're also making up for it with insane perimeter defense.

While, Theis will certainly not be playing this well cannot be sustainable, (4.6 blocks per 36,) defensively, the lack of a true C doesn't seem to be necessary since we play small ball anyways. Our best 5 is Hayward, Walker, Brown, Tatum, and Smart.

Celts tried that approach against the Sixers in the first game of the season.

The Celts ended up getting outrebounded by Philly 62-41.

Philly didn't even shoot well in that game.

Celtics only played that lineup for for 3 1/2 minutes during the Philly game though.

Here's a look at the box score as best as I could cut it.  They were -1, but even on rebounds.  Way too small of a sample to draw any conclusions.

That lineup has only played 5.2 minutes total across 2 games.  The other game was against Toronto and they were +2 in points, +3 in rebounds.

Overall +1 in points and +3 in rebounds!  Still way too small of a sample to draw any conclusions (and there were no super imposing big men on the floor for the other team at the time either, which helps).

Against the Knicks in Boston, the Celts gave up 16 offensive rebounds.

Right now it's a small sample size, but historically, Celts never won a championship without a dominant big man.

The NBA game has changed, but I still think having a quality to big man to defend the paint and get rebounds is still one of the ingredients for a championship team.

I don't think the Raptors would have won a championship if they didn't get Marc Gasol at the trade deadline.

Parish was hardly dominant. He was very good for a long period of time, but fringe All-NBA production isn't dominant at all. What we need is a transcendent talent plus good players at every position who can complement the centrepiece, or a collection of star talent ala the 08 Celtics (although Garnett was an MVP calibre big).

3400th post!

Come on, Robert Parish is a Hall of Famer.

Right now the Celts have excellent players in Kemba, Tatum, and Hayward.
Add Smart and Brown and the Celts have a Fab Five.
What the Celts need is a big man who can defend and get rebounds.

If only Kanter is decent on defense then there's no need for this discussion.

I saw the GSW vs. Portland series last season.

Kanter was awful on defense.
Steph Curry had a big series against Portland, averaging 36.5 points per game.
Reason was Kanter couldn't defend the pick and roll.
GSW was already executing the pick and roll near half-court.
Kanter was absolutely clueless on how to defend GSW's pick and roll.

Once the Celts get a quality big man, I wouldn't be surprised if it's LA vs. Boston in the Finals again.

Come on lad, KC Jones is also a Hall of Famer and no one in their right mind would say that he's anything more than a role player. Parish got into the Hall because he was one of the best third options ever for a dynasty and had sterling longevity. Let's not act like he was in the class of Kareem/Olajuwon (or even Mr. Overrated Moses Malone!) during the 80s, now those guys were dominant centres.

And you mean the Clippers? Yeah that makes sense

Yes, Parish is not on the same level as Hakeem and Kareem, but Parish is a quality big man.

That's all I'm asking, a quality big man.
I'm not asking for someone like Hakeem or Kareem.

Like I what I keep saying, if Kanter is only decent on defense, this discussion wouldn't be necessary.

RWill can be the big man of the future for the Celts.
But right now he's still lacking experience.

Theis is solid, but he's just too short to guard Embiid or help contain Giannis.

What the Celts need is an upgrade like what the Raptors did last season at the trade deadline.
Without Marc Gasol, I don't think the Raptors would've advanced to the finals.
Raptors knew Marc Gasol was on the decline, but his experience and defensive abilities would help them in the playoffs.
That's why the Raptors swapped their young Center Valanciunas for the old Marc Gasol.

I was just replying to your comment that said the Celtics have never won a title without a dominant big man. And yes I agree with your opinion that we need a quality big man to truly compete for a title barring jumps to stardom from Jaylen and Tatum as well as an ascension to "weak MVP" status by Kemba Walker. Btw Robert Williams is even shorter than Theis, and Theis has a similar wingspan compared to Williams' (7'4 to 7'5 I believe), Williams will be a gnat to Embiid if Theis is too small for your tastes lol.

[Fierce1]

I think what we're missing in Horford's innate ability; team defense, we're also making up for it with insane perimeter defense.

While, Theis will certainly not be playing this well cannot be sustainable, (4.6 blocks per 36,) defensively, the lack of a true C doesn't seem to be necessary since we play small ball anyways. Our best 5 is Hayward, Walker, Brown, Tatum, and Smart.

Celts tried that approach against the Sixers in the first game of the season.

The Celts ended up getting outrebounded by Philly 62-41.

Philly didn't even shoot well in that game.

Celtics only played that lineup for for 3 1/2 minutes during the Philly game though.

Here's a look at the box score as best as I could cut it.  They were -1, but even on rebounds.  Way too small of a sample to draw any conclusions.

That lineup has only played 5.2 minutes total across 2 games.  The other game was against Toronto and they were +2 in points, +3 in rebounds.

Overall +1 in points and +3 in rebounds!  Still way too small of a sample to draw any conclusions (and there were no super imposing big men on the floor for the other team at the time either, which helps).

Against the Knicks in Boston, the Celts gave up 16 offensive rebounds.

Right now it's a small sample size, but historically, Celts never won a championship without a dominant big man.

The NBA game has changed, but I still think having a quality to big man to defend the paint and get rebounds is still one of the ingredients for a championship team.

I don't think the Raptors would have won a championship if they didn't get Marc Gasol at the trade deadline.

Parish was hardly dominant. He was very good for a long period of time, but fringe All-NBA production isn't dominant at all. What we need is a transcendent talent plus good players at every position who can complement the centrepiece, or a collection of star talent ala the 08 Celtics (although Garnett was an MVP calibre big).

3400th post!

Come on, Robert Parish is a Hall of Famer.

Right now the Celts have excellent players in Kemba, Tatum, and Hayward.
Add Smart and Brown and the Celts have a Fab Five.
What the Celts need is a big man who can defend and get rebounds.

If only Kanter is decent on defense then there's no need for this discussion.

I saw the GSW vs. Portland series last season.

Kanter was awful on defense.
Steph Curry had a big series against Portland, averaging 36.5 points per game.
Reason was Kanter couldn't defend the pick and roll.
GSW was already executing the pick and roll near half-court.
Kanter was absolutely clueless on how to defend GSW's pick and roll.

Once the Celts get a quality big man, I wouldn't be surprised if it's LA vs. Boston in the Finals again.

Come on lad, KC Jones is also a Hall of Famer and no one in their right mind would say that he's anything more than a role player. Parish got into the Hall because he was one of the best third options ever for a dynasty and had sterling longevity. Let's not act like he was in the class of Kareem/Olajuwon (or even Mr. Overrated Moses Malone!) during the 80s, now those guys were dominant centres.

And you mean the Clippers? Yeah that makes sense

Yes, Parish is not on the same level as Hakeem and Kareem, but Parish is a quality big man.

That's all I'm asking, a quality big man.
I'm not asking for someone like Hakeem or Kareem.

Like I what I keep saying, if Kanter is only decent on defense, this discussion wouldn't be necessary.

RWill can be the big man of the future for the Celts.
But right now he's still lacking experience.

Theis is solid, but he's just too short to guard Embiid or help contain Giannis.

What the Celts need is an upgrade like what the Raptors did last season at the trade deadline.
Without Marc Gasol, I don't think the Raptors would've advanced to the finals.
Raptors knew Marc Gasol was on the decline, but his experience and defensive abilities would help them in the playoffs.
That's why the Raptors swapped their young Center Valanciunas for the old Marc Gasol.

I was just replying to your comment that said the Celtics have never won a title without a dominant big man. And yes I agree with your opinion that we need a quality big man to truly compete for a title barring jumps to stardom from Jaylen and Tatum as well as an ascension to "weak MVP" status by Kemba Walker. Btw Robert Williams is even shorter than Theis, and Theis has a similar wingspan compared to Williams' (7'4 to 7'5 I believe), Williams will be a gnat to Embiid if Theis is too small for your tastes lol.

Theis and RWill are both 6-8 according to the actual height measurement of the NBA today.
RWill just has a longer wingspan.

I think 2 years from now, RWill will be able to guard Embiid, just like a 6-9 Horford was able to guard Embiid.

There's still time.
Right now the Celts can't make any significant moves.
So I think January or February will be the right time.

And it doesn't matter if it's Lakers or Clippers vs. Celtics.

[Fafnir]

I'm just not sure if there is anyone who fits neatly into clear upgrade for match up purposes who work under the salary cap. Right now it seems like they could maybe get a depth big who helps them match up more than a difference maker type who makes 12+ million.

I guess you just play it out and see how the team looks. If you feel like the C's have a real title shot by the trade deadline spending one of the young prospects or a future pick for depth makes sense. Waiting also has the benefit of seeing the health situation of the Cs and around the league.

[BitterJim]

The game against the Cavs showed us how an opposing Center can hurt the Celts.
Tristan Thompson ended up getting 19 points and 13 rebounds, 8 offensive boards.

Thompson pretty much does this to every team. He's just a great, great offensive rebounder.

Then it would be a good thing if the Celts can get Thompson for Kanter, Poirier, Ojeleye, a draft pick, and maybe Langford or Theis, right?

Not really, no. Giving up Kanter (who is about the same level of rebounder, superior offensively, and worse defensively), the guy we picked #14 before we see what we have with him, PLUS our depth AND a first rounder for an overpaid big man might make sense if he was gonna put us over the hump, but he won't.

This team needs more than a change from Kanter to Tristan Thompson to win a championship this year. Overpaying for a marginal upgrade would just set us back long term

[Rosco917]

I need to see more of Kanter to decide this question. Can his stellar rebounding and scoring off-set his lack of defense on the PR. He has the size to battle against most true NBA centers. I'm not even sure he's a starter with that first unit, he may be best used off the bench.

This season Theis has been really good but he does have a tendency to get injured and he isn't really big enough to deal with talented full-sized centers.

Rob Williams is 6-8 and protects the rim well, but is out of position at times, and still is a young players. The truth is at 6-8 he is also undersized.

The combination of all three is what I'm interested in seeing. Short of breaking up that talented "Core-4" our hands are tied.   

[DefenseWinsChamps]

According to studies done recently, the average height in shoes of centers in the NBA is 6'11''. The average height without shoes is 6'9.7''. For centers, the average standing reach is 9'1.2''.

That was a study done in 2014, before the small ball revolution. Now, teams are playing shorter players at center all the time. Those numbers go down for the average height of those actually getting minutes at center.

Robert Williams is 6'8'' (barefoot), but with a 7'6'' wingspan, his standing reach is undoubtedly greater than 9'1.2''. On top of that, he is probably the quickest jumper in the league, which adds to his actual gameplay size.

On top of this, with the new official barefoot measurements, we have to adjust our understanding of what properly sized means in the NBA. 6'8'' (barefoot) is probably closer to the actual height of players playing center today.

Williams is not undersized.

[Vermont Green]

Are people really arguing whether or not the 80's era Celtics had dominant bigs?  You could argue that they had as many as 3, McHale, Parrish and Walton.  And Bird was big for a Wing.  They had all kinds of size and all kinds of talent.

In today's NBA, you don't need that kind of size but you do need to be able to have some level of presence in the front court.

[Fafnir]

Robert Williams has plenty of size, he's not strong enough or solid in the scheme yet.

Still he's rather productive in his minutes even with his mistakes, I want him to keep playing minutes and keep improving.

[Vermont Green]

It is interesting that Robert Williams is now listed as 6'-8", granted with long arms, and you have a certain perception of him (many think of him as a center).  While Marcus Morris is also currently listed at 6'-8" but all I heard about him is that he is not a power forward.  He is also the same height as Daniel Theis.

I would love to get a player like Marcus Morris to add to our big rotation.  I consider him a legitimate starting level player capable as playing as a big.  I don't know what the dimensions need to be for a player to be a big these days but I do know the Celtics don't have a lot of talent in the players on the roster that would qualify.  Whether Center, PF, or something in between, we just need some more talent.

[fairweatherfan]

Robert Williams has plenty of size, he's not strong enough or solid in the scheme yet.

Still he's rather productive in his minutes even with his mistakes, I want him to keep playing minutes and keep improving.

Yeah Williams is the one to try and groom into that role.  Kanter is what he is, Theis is solid but limited, Poirier is not ready and may never be, and Grant is a really nice player but is too small to be put at 5 with any consistency.

[Somebody]

Are people really arguing whether or not the 80's era Celtics had dominant bigs?  You could argue that they had as many as 3, McHale, Parrish and Walton.  And Bird was big for a Wing.  They had all kinds of size and all kinds of talent.

In today's NBA, you don't need that kind of size but you do need to be able to have some level of presence in the front court.

Yes, I'm arguing that the Celtics had no dominant bigs aside from McHale's best year in 87 (when he barely touched MVP calibre play). Walton was washed by the time he went to Boston, he wasn't even a surefire All-Star, and Parish was a consistent All-NBA talent who never really dominated his position but got into the HoF due to his sterling longevity and stellar team accolades. The bigs that the Bird-era Celtics had were certainly quality big men, but let's not act like they were eating the league alive like Kareem/Hakeem/Moses in that decade. You need to be the best of the best before you can start being called dominant.

I do agree that you need some degree of quality in your frontcourt to be a contender regardless of era in the NBA though.

[footey]

I'm in minority, but I like our center by committee, including Smart, GWill and Semi, and matching up depending on who we are playing.  I really like the switchability of this group, and the other guys on the floor.  I think we should be able to get a lot of deflections, which lead to fast break/easy bucket opportunities. Only negative so far is defensive rebounding percentage.  Getting Kanter back will help there.

[Fierce1]

The game against the Cavs showed us how an opposing Center can hurt the Celts.
Tristan Thompson ended up getting 19 points and 13 rebounds, 8 offensive boards.

Thompson pretty much does this to every team. He's just a great, great offensive rebounder.

Then it would be a good thing if the Celts can get Thompson for Kanter, Poirier, Ojeleye, a draft pick, and maybe Langford or Theis, right?

Not really, no. Giving up Kanter (who is about the same level of rebounder, superior offensively, and worse defensively), the guy we picked #14 before we see what we have with him, PLUS our depth AND a first rounder for an overpaid big man might make sense if he was gonna put us over the hump, but he won't.

This team needs more than a change from Kanter to Tristan Thompson to win a championship this year. Overpaying for a marginal upgrade would just set us back long term

How is it overpaying when Kanter is not a long term solution at Center?

Langford is a gamble.

And the 1st rounder is not the Memphis pick.

Also, why would the Celts lose depth when the Celts will still have RWill and GWill.

Remember, Brad only plays 9 players in the playoffs.

A marginal upgrade is better than no upgrade at all.

If you don't like Tristan Thompson then who do you like?

Whether it's Thompson or not, Ainge can't let the Celts go in the playoffs without making a move to upgrade the frontcourt.