Author Topic: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?  (Read 11516 times)

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Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2009, 06:30:44 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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If Doc, once KG and Powe and Scal went down, had addressed the team and said:

"Listen, we're going with the philososphy that the starters are going to play limited minutes, like tops of 30-35 per game, and we're just going to have to rely on Steph, Mikki, Billy, Eddie, and some of you other guys to pick up the slack. Doing this could mean we lose a lot more games and don't get the 2nd seed, but we will be fresh come playoff time when our starters are going to have to go 40 minutes per game each."

then I think he might have lost a bunch of respect amongst his starters. Pro athletes don't take well to losing on purpose by having good players sit on benches while lesser plyers are losing games. If after a couple of losses where Ray and Paul played only 30 minutes and JR Giddens and Bill Walker dah played 20 each, the starters didn't start to grumble about how they would't have lost if Doc let them play, I would be very surprised.

It's so easy to say play this one or that one and force these others to sit and who cares if we win. That's easy for us. But stars and pros don't see it that way. Guys like Perk and Rondo and Ray and Paul think they can go 45 minutes every night and through the playoffs and should. The last thing they are thinking is play me less so I can be rested later.

And yes, it is the job of the coach to take charge but it is also the job of the coach to win games and keep a healthy locker room and the respect of his players. Lose the locker room and you lose your job. It is that easy. If the Celtics lost 5-10 more games for the sole benefit of keeping Ray and Rondo and Perk and Paul rested for the playoffs, mentally they may not have been ready for the playoffs because they could have lost a ton of respect for Doc and Doc may have lost their ears and heads, so to say.

I think Doc did the best he could and I challenge any other coach in the league to say they could have won more games or gotten the Celtics any farther than Doc did. I doubt anyone would jump forward to say they could have. 62 wins and going to 7 games in the conference semi's to a team that , except for one unbelieveable shot, could have just swept the Cavs, is [dang] good. They beat a good young Bulls team that played them tough and a very good Magic team that played unreal perimeter defense.

I say, great job Doc, we'll get them next time when we have all our horses healthy. Don't worry about it, we did the best we could under the circumstances.

Funny because I remember Pierce saying time and time again that he needed to play less, that players like Walker should play more, and Doc kept telling that he needs to find ways to give him more rest, yet he always failed to.

It's all about balance... "losing a ton of more games" is quite a stretch.
It's one thing to say those words after playing yourself into the ground it's another to think you are going to need that rest beforehand.

Because you assume that as the season goes along, you'd start playing less to prepare for the playoffs. Which reminds me of last season, which was why I argued that the complaints of minutes were nonsense since I trusted Doc to give them appropiate minutes as the season ended. And he delivered. It didn't occur this season. It was quite understandable when they were playing for the best record of the league, that's quite important. But circumstances changed at it was quite evident that the Lakers and Cavs were going to be on top. There was plenty of time to start getting those minutes down. Again, balance is the key word here.

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What I am saying is if he took that "we'll play scrubs and reserve the minutes of the starters" philosophy to the club ahead of time then the starters wouldn't have been happy, especially if that philosophy started costing them wins.

They weren't winning a whole lot anyways. And as I said above, you could argue that playing Pierce through some long stretches during games left him without gas towards the end, hence costing us games. It would be somewhat understandable at times when you players are hot, but Doc played them big minutes regardless of how well they were playing.

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To come back at me with "but Doc said this and Paul said that" after Paul and Ray had already played two straight months of 40+ minutes is not exactly a fair counter argument in my mind. I didn't hear quotes of Paul saying when people went down that he still only needed to play X minutes because otherwise he would get too tired for the playoffs. My guess is that the attitude was what it always is when a major player goes down, the other major players think they had better tighten the bootstraps, be prepared for more monutes and everyone will work harder and longer to achieve the same goal. And when KG went down that goal was best overall record and the number one seed.

It simply shows a bit of shortsightedness and poor planning. As I said, if the goal is the number one seed AND you have a great chance of accomplishing it, go at it. But that was not the case when they started losing games and the Cavs were as hot as they were. When that occured there had to be a change in how hard you went about going after games. This doesn't mean you would lose a ton of games. It simply meant that you weren't going to overplay Ray and Pierce.

Anyways, this is all a moot point since I really don't blame Doc for not winning. I do criticize some of his poor decisions like this one and not giving someone like Walker more burn throughout the year, even if he wasn't going to be used in the playoffs.

As I said earlier, I blame the players more... but even so, I can't put much on them when you consider the circumstances and the injuries they were playing through. And that Chicago series was killer, and more damaging than any "rest" Doc might've given the players during the season. Still I think Doc was mistaken in playing them as hard as he did when it was quite evidend that the #1 seed was quite a stretch, that the team was fighting to get healthy, and going healthy and with energy should've been the #1 priority.

Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2009, 06:50:22 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I thought about this we lost.  I think it was a big factor because, either way we would have played Orlando and home court didn't mean anything in hindsight.  But it is what it is, I've moved on and have focused on next season.   
Actually, we needed the #1 seed. Orlando could have knocked of Cleveland for us, then we could have had an epic battle in the conference finals with Orlando.

Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2009, 06:50:57 PM »

Offline Gunner

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East wins and losses

Cleveland  66 wins and 16 losses
boston 62 wins and 20 losses
orlando 59 wins and 23 losses

Atlanta 47 wins and 35 losses
Miami 43 wins and 39 losses
Philly 41 wins and 41 losses
chicago 41 wins and 41 losses
Detroit 39 wins and 43 losses

So we could have lost 14 more games and still been the 3rd seed.

Pierce minutes
Feb - 41.1
Mar - 39.5
Apr - 34.2

Ray minutes
Feb - 37.3
mar - 36.1
Apr - 37.0

Doc tried to reduce Pierce's minutes. He didn't really try to reduce Ray's minutes.

If Pierce and Ray had averaged 32 minutes a game, in Feb, Mar and April, I don't think we would have lost 14 more games. But even if we had fallen to the 5th or 6th seed, I'd rather have a healthy, rested Pierce and Ray than home court.

Home court has been meaningless in this years playoffs.

good teams can win anywhere.






Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2009, 06:52:20 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Talk about a no-win situation for Doc. The Celtics won 12 of their last 14 games and needed that stretch to secure the second seed.   Had he played PP, Ray and Rondo fewer minutes and lost a couple of games they may have fallen to the third seed.  
Then, after losing to the Magic in round 2 we would have seen the thread, "Did Doc cost us a championship by not going for the second seed?"

Has anyone been watching the Magic?  They were clearly the better team against us, and just as clearly the better team against Cleveland.  Yes, anything can happen in a 7th game -- just as Atlanta could have beaten us last year.  However, usually, the better team rises and that's what happened against the Magic.  

Our championship was lost when KG went down.  I really don't see how that is not clear.  Notice that Houston hung in there after Yao went down, but eventually did not have enough to finish the job.  This is what happens with teams that just don't have enough talent on the court.  With KG and Powe, we are the team to beat -- without KG, the C's are not a top tier team.  That is the reason we did not win a championship this year.
 

Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2009, 06:53:05 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Doc overused key players in the 2nd half of the season.

Pierce and Ray in particular played huge minutes so we could get the 2nd seed.

in 2008 Pierce and Ray sat some games and played reduced minutes in the last couple of weeks in the season.

This year, they played huge minutes right to the end.

Guys like Davis, who had played "sub minutes" were also made to play much more when KG, Scal and other big men were out.

We eventually got home court, but still lost to Orlando.

Home court really didn't make a difference in the Chicago or Orlando series.

Being rested did!

It looked to me, like Ray, Pierce, Rondo and the boys were burned out.

They had played big minutes at the end of the season and even bigger minutes in the great playoff series against the Bulls.

As we now see, Cleveland and the Lakers are beatable.

A well rested Ray, Pierce, Rondo etc could have gone into Orlando and won a game 7.

But a burned out team couldn't win at home.

I hope Doc has learned his lesson.
Are you saying Doc caused KG's injury? Because that is was cost us a championship.

Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2009, 06:59:25 PM »

Offline Gunner

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I think the Celtics, as short handed as they were had a chance to win a championship this season, if Ray, Pierce, Rondo etc were rested.

Chicago and Orlando were good teams.

We are seeing how good Orlando is in the Cav's series.

When the Cav's/Magic series is over the Celtics will have come closer to beating Orlando than the Cav's.

The Celtics were very short handed when they stomped the Nuggets in Denver. That was also the end of a long road trip for the Celtics.

I'm saying the Celtics had a shot to win a championship this season without KG and Powe. I wouldn't have bet my life savings on it, but they had a shot. [Maybe 35% chance of winning.]

But their best players needed to be rested not exhausted in the playoffs.

Thats what I'm saying.



Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2009, 07:12:36 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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East wins and losses

Cleveland  66 wins and 16 losses
boston 62 wins and 20 losses
orlando 59 wins and 23 losses

Atlanta 47 wins and 35 losses
Miami 43 wins and 39 losses
Philly 41 wins and 41 losses
chicago 41 wins and 41 losses
Detroit 39 wins and 43 losses

So we could have lost 14 more games and still been the 3rd seed.

Actually we could have lost 20 more games and still had the #3 seed. I believe the top three seeds go to the division winners. Now I remember something about a change possibly being made to make the lowest a division winner could get was #4 and allowing the team with the best second place record be seeded according to record if they were had a better record than other division winners, but I don't know if that idea was enacted.

Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2009, 07:58:08 PM »

Offline BballTim

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If Doc, once KG and Powe and Scal went down, had addressed the team and said:

"Listen, we're going with the philososphy that the starters are going to play limited minutes, like tops of 30-35 per game, and we're just going to have to rely on Steph, Mikki, Billy, Eddie, and some of you other guys to pick up the slack. Doing this could mean we lose a lot more games and don't get the 2nd seed, but we will be fresh come playoff time when our starters are going to have to go 40 minutes per game each."


  And even with that if the Bulls series went the same way we'd still have been dog tired going into the Magic series.

Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2009, 08:02:52 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I think the Celtics, as short handed as they were had a chance to win a championship this season, if Ray, Pierce, Rondo etc were rested.

Chicago and Orlando were good teams.

We are seeing how good Orlando is in the Cav's series.

When the Cav's/Magic series is over the Celtics will have come closer to beating Orlando than the Cav's.

The Celtics were very short handed when they stomped the Nuggets in Denver. That was also the end of a long road trip for the Celtics.

I'm saying the Celtics had a shot to win a championship this season without KG and Powe. I wouldn't have bet my life savings on it, but they had a shot. [Maybe 35% chance of winning.]

But their best players needed to be rested not exhausted in the playoffs.

Thats what I'm saying.


  We match up with the Magic better than the Cavs do. I don't think you can just say that since the Magic are doing well we would as well because the Cavs can't handle DH and we don't have a player like that.

Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2009, 08:05:20 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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Doc overused key players in the 2nd half of the season.

Pierce and Ray in particular played huge minutes so we could get the 2nd seed.

in 2008 Pierce and Ray sat some games and played reduced minutes in the last couple of weeks in the season.

This year, they played huge minutes right to the end.

Guys like Davis, who had played "sub minutes" were also made to play much more when KG, Scal and other big men were out.

We eventually got home court, but still lost to Orlando.

Home court really didn't make a difference in the Chicago or Orlando series.

Being rested did!

It looked to me, like Ray, Pierce, Rondo and the boys were burned out.

They had played big minutes at the end of the season and even bigger minutes in the great playoff series against the Bulls.

As we now see, Cleveland and the Lakers are beatable.

A well rested Ray, Pierce, Rondo etc could have gone into Orlando and won a game 7.

But a burned out team couldn't win at home.

I hope Doc has learned his lesson.

this sounds like weei caller-type nonsense. 


Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2009, 08:26:35 PM »

Offline Mr October

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As soon as KG went down, do did our championship hopes. I thought for the most part everyone did well this season - the core rotation and Doc.

Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2009, 03:21:29 PM »

Offline Gunner

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Doc overplayed veterans like Pierce and Ray, because he "overvalued"  being the 2nd seed.

He thought home court was the be all and end all.

We could have lost 14 more game and ended up the 3rd seed.

We could have lost more and ended up in the playoffs.

I'd argue that playing Philly or Miami would have been easier than Chicago.

We overvalued our record and seeding and undervalued the value of having players rested for the playoffs.

Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2009, 03:48:29 PM »

Offline Chris

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Doc overplayed veterans like Pierce and Ray, because he "overvalued"  being the 2nd seed.

He thought home court was the be all and end all.


I don't think this is true at all.  If it was the case, he would have pushed harder for Garnett to play more, rather than hoping to rest him for the playoffs.

Doc was coaching to win games.  It wasn't about seeding or anything like that, it was about winning games. 

I would argue that this attitude that Doc has about trying to win every game is the same attitude which makes this team run.  Doc expects his players to come out and play hard every minute of every game.  If he is not coaching his ass off, and doing everything he can to win every game, then the players will catch on to that, and it can change the entire dynamics of the team.

Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2009, 03:59:23 PM »

Offline gar

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Doc overplayed veterans like Pierce and Ray, because he "overvalued"  being the 2nd seed.

He thought home court was the be all and end all.


I don't think this is true at all.  If it was the case, he would have pushed harder for Garnett to play more, rather than hoping to rest him for the playoffs.

Doc was coaching to win games.  It wasn't about seeding or anything like that, it was about winning games. 

I would argue that this attitude that Doc has about trying to win every game is the same attitude which makes this team run.  Doc expects his players to come out and play hard every minute of every game.  If he is not coaching his ass off, and doing everything he can to win every game, then the players will catch on to that, and it can change the entire dynamics of the team.

Agreed

We also forget that playing Marbury and Moore was a huge priority and that giving them time with PP or RA was also important.

Would have loved to see what Pruitt or Walker could have given us; but he also needed to go with combinations he thought would be most useful in the playoffs.

Re: Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2009, 04:00:10 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Doc overplayed veterans like Pierce and Ray, because he "overvalued"  being the 2nd seed.

He thought home court was the be all and end all.


I don't think this is true at all.  If it was the case, he would have pushed harder for Garnett to play more, rather than hoping to rest him for the playoffs.

Doc was coaching to win games.  It wasn't about seeding or anything like that, it was about winning games. 

I would argue that this attitude that Doc has about trying to win every game is the same attitude which makes this team run.  Doc expects his players to come out and play hard every minute of every game.  If he is not coaching his ass off, and doing everything he can to win every game, then the players will catch on to that, and it can change the entire dynamics of the team.
This is the type of thing I was trying to get across earlier when I discussed Doc possibly losing the team if he came forward with this "we'll lose more games but be rested" philosophy. Excellently expressed Chris TP4U.

Fact is there are a ton of different factors that lead to the Celtics having to play Ray and Paul more and a ton more as to why Doc coached the way he did. To just come out and blame Doc for the way he handle things is ludicrous. I think he walked a very fine line with how he could have handled things and probably, except for game 7 vs Orlando, got the most out of this team that he could have gotten this year.