Who do the C’s cut?

[michigan adam]

Holiday>Murray
White>KCP
Brown>MPJ
Tatum>Gordon
Porzingis<Jokic

Holiday<Lillard
White>Beasley
Brown>Middleton
Tatum=Giannis
Porzingis>Lopez

Celtics have more than enough size. Honestly, not sure how much better Lillard is than Holiday considering Dame plays little to no defense.

Only in a Celtics forum.

Don't think Jrue is better than Murray either, but maybe that's just me cause I value offense over defense.

Murray is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Jrue.  Giannis at PF is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Tatum at PF.

This is true ONLY if you forget about defense.  Defense is HALF the game folks.  I know offense is the part that is hyped, but C's are very unique in that their top 6 players are all very good to excellent on both offense AND defense.  The good part about this is it is very difficult to "pick on" an of the defenders for mismatches, and also equally as hard to sag off any of these players on offense.  That means a couple things.  Your players have to work harder to score, while the C's simply punish the poor defenders that either lay off one of the 5 shooters on the perimeter, or watch the 5 drivers go by.  Add the 2 additional elite shooters the C's have in spots 7 and 8 in PP and hauser and the will be very very tough to beat.  We all have stated the C's apparent weakness is that 3rd big that would allow the C's to go 2 bigs against the few teams with 2 above average bigs.  Cav's, bucks, etc.  Hopefully Queta can grow into that or Blake decides to come back.

[Vermont Green]

The thing with Murray is that he is injured a lot. This dilutes his stats. I think he showed in the finals that when healthy, he is better than Holiday.

[Phantom255x]

Murray is better than Holiday. What can make it a little close is that Holiday is a much better defender than Murray, but Murray is still the overall better of the two.

I just saw the Giannis > Tatum "significant" thing though and strongly disagree. Maybe that's true in 2020 and 2021. Not now, Tatum is better overall. I think Giannis has peaked as a player. Obviously he can still remain a MVP-candidate for many years to come, but what else do we realistically think he can improve on and get significantly better at? I think Tatum meanwhile still has some room to grow.

You're not gonna get an argument from me about who is more "championship tough", Giannis has the hardware to prove it from 2021. But at the same time, Giannis' team got bounced in the very first round last season, am I supposed to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for that like Tatum often does in situations where the team frustrates or loses a series (and/or Tatum chokes like the 2022 Finals).

[Neurotic Guy]

Murray is better than Holiday. What can make it a little close is that Holiday is a much better defender than Murray, but Murray is still the overall better of the two.

I just saw the Giannis > Tatum "significant" thing though and strongly disagree. Maybe that's true in 2020 and 2021. Not now, Tatum is better overall. I think Giannis has peaked as a player. Obviously he can still remain a MVP-candidate for many years to come, but what else do we realistically think he can improve on and get significantly better at? I think Tatum meanwhile still has some room to grow.

You're not gonna get an argument from me about who is more "championship tough", Giannis has the hardware to prove it from 2021. But at the same time, Giannis' team got bounced in the very first round last season, am I supposed to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for that like Tatum often does in situations where the team frustrates or loses a series (and/or Tatum chokes like the 2022 Finals).

Looking at 2023-24 only, if you could choose Tatum or GA, you’d choose Tatum?  I don’t think I would, but that’s something I’ll gladly be wrong about.

[LilRip]

Call me crazy or green goggled but I think Tatum either wins or comes in, at worst, 3rd in MVP voting. He was already (a distant) 4th last year.

I think he can win it this year.

[Phantom255x]

Murray is better than Holiday. What can make it a little close is that Holiday is a much better defender than Murray, but Murray is still the overall better of the two.

I just saw the Giannis > Tatum "significant" thing though and strongly disagree. Maybe that's true in 2020 and 2021. Not now, Tatum is better overall. I think Giannis has peaked as a player. Obviously he can still remain a MVP-candidate for many years to come, but what else do we realistically think he can improve on and get significantly better at? I think Tatum meanwhile still has some room to grow.

You're not gonna get an argument from me about who is more "championship tough", Giannis has the hardware to prove it from 2021. But at the same time, Giannis' team got bounced in the very first round last season, am I supposed to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for that like Tatum often does in situations where the team frustrates or loses a series (and/or Tatum chokes like the 2022 Finals).

Looking at 2023-24 only, if you could choose Tatum or GA, you’d choose Tatum?  I don’t think I would, but that’s something I’ll gladly be wrong about.

Yep, I would.

[Goldstar88]

Murray is better than Holiday. What can make it a little close is that Holiday is a much better defender than Murray, but Murray is still the overall better of the two.

I just saw the Giannis > Tatum "significant" thing though and strongly disagree. Maybe that's true in 2020 and 2021. Not now, Tatum is better overall. I think Giannis has peaked as a player. Obviously he can still remain a MVP-candidate for many years to come, but what else do we realistically think he can improve on and get significantly better at? I think Tatum meanwhile still has some room to grow.

You're not gonna get an argument from me about who is more "championship tough", Giannis has the hardware to prove it from 2021. But at the same time, Giannis' team got bounced in the very first round last season, am I supposed to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for that like Tatum often does in situations where the team frustrates or loses a series (and/or Tatum chokes like the 2022 Finals).

Looking at 2023-24 only, if you could choose Tatum or GA, you’d choose Tatum?  I don’t think I would, but that’s something I’ll gladly be wrong about.

Yep, I would.

Same. Tatum is the best two-way player in the NBA.

[Roy H.]

Murray is better than Holiday. What can make it a little close is that Holiday is a much better defender than Murray, but Murray is still the overall better of the two.

I just saw the Giannis > Tatum "significant" thing though and strongly disagree. Maybe that's true in 2020 and 2021. Not now, Tatum is better overall. I think Giannis has peaked as a player. Obviously he can still remain a MVP-candidate for many years to come, but what else do we realistically think he can improve on and get significantly better at? I think Tatum meanwhile still has some room to grow.

You're not gonna get an argument from me about who is more "championship tough", Giannis has the hardware to prove it from 2021. But at the same time, Giannis' team got bounced in the very first round last season, am I supposed to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for that like Tatum often does in situations where the team frustrates or loses a series (and/or Tatum chokes like the 2022 Finals).

Looking at 2023-24 only, if you could choose Tatum or GA, you’d choose Tatum?  I don’t think I would, but that’s something I’ll gladly be wrong about.

Yep, I would.

Same. Tatum is the best two-way player in the NBA.

He may be in the future, but he hasn't been at any point in his career yet.

[Goldstar88]

Murray is better than Holiday. What can make it a little close is that Holiday is a much better defender than Murray, but Murray is still the overall better of the two.

I just saw the Giannis > Tatum "significant" thing though and strongly disagree. Maybe that's true in 2020 and 2021. Not now, Tatum is better overall. I think Giannis has peaked as a player. Obviously he can still remain a MVP-candidate for many years to come, but what else do we realistically think he can improve on and get significantly better at? I think Tatum meanwhile still has some room to grow.

You're not gonna get an argument from me about who is more "championship tough", Giannis has the hardware to prove it from 2021. But at the same time, Giannis' team got bounced in the very first round last season, am I supposed to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for that like Tatum often does in situations where the team frustrates or loses a series (and/or Tatum chokes like the 2022 Finals).

Looking at 2023-24 only, if you could choose Tatum or GA, you’d choose Tatum?  I don’t think I would, but that’s something I’ll gladly be wrong about.

Yep, I would.

Same. Tatum is the best two-way player in the NBA.

He may be in the future, but he hasn't been at any point in his career yet.

Who do you have as a better two-way player right now?

[Roy H.]

Murray is better than Holiday. What can make it a little close is that Holiday is a much better defender than Murray, but Murray is still the overall better of the two.

I just saw the Giannis > Tatum "significant" thing though and strongly disagree. Maybe that's true in 2020 and 2021. Not now, Tatum is better overall. I think Giannis has peaked as a player. Obviously he can still remain a MVP-candidate for many years to come, but what else do we realistically think he can improve on and get significantly better at? I think Tatum meanwhile still has some room to grow.

You're not gonna get an argument from me about who is more "championship tough", Giannis has the hardware to prove it from 2021. But at the same time, Giannis' team got bounced in the very first round last season, am I supposed to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for that like Tatum often does in situations where the team frustrates or loses a series (and/or Tatum chokes like the 2022 Finals).

Looking at 2023-24 only, if you could choose Tatum or GA, you’d choose Tatum?  I don’t think I would, but that’s something I’ll gladly be wrong about.

Yep, I would.

Same. Tatum is the best two-way player in the NBA.

He may be in the future, but he hasn't been at any point in his career yet.

Who do you have as a better two-way player right now?

Giannis scores more on a higher eFG% with more assists and is a better defender (and rebounder).

Jokic should be 3-time MVP right now.  His offense transcends his adequate defense.

[Goldstar88]

Murray is better than Holiday. What can make it a little close is that Holiday is a much better defender than Murray, but Murray is still the overall better of the two.

I just saw the Giannis > Tatum "significant" thing though and strongly disagree. Maybe that's true in 2020 and 2021. Not now, Tatum is better overall. I think Giannis has peaked as a player. Obviously he can still remain a MVP-candidate for many years to come, but what else do we realistically think he can improve on and get significantly better at? I think Tatum meanwhile still has some room to grow.

You're not gonna get an argument from me about who is more "championship tough", Giannis has the hardware to prove it from 2021. But at the same time, Giannis' team got bounced in the very first round last season, am I supposed to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for that like Tatum often does in situations where the team frustrates or loses a series (and/or Tatum chokes like the 2022 Finals).

Looking at 2023-24 only, if you could choose Tatum or GA, you’d choose Tatum?  I don’t think I would, but that’s something I’ll gladly be wrong about.

Yep, I would.

Same. Tatum is the best two-way player in the NBA.

He may be in the future, but he hasn't been at any point in his career yet.

Who do you have as a better two-way player right now?

Giannis scores more on a higher eFG% with more assists and is a better defender (and rebounder).

Jokic should be 3-time MVP right now.  His offense transcends his adequate defense.

Giannis FG% is high since he dunks so much. He really can’t shoot, though. 27% from 3pt and 64% from the line last season. Calling Jokic’s defense adequate is generous, IMO. I think Embiid is ahead of those two. He plays high level defense and can shoot the ball. I have him and Tatum 1 and 2. It’s an interesting debate, though.

[Roy H.]

Murray is better than Holiday. What can make it a little close is that Holiday is a much better defender than Murray, but Murray is still the overall better of the two.

I just saw the Giannis > Tatum "significant" thing though and strongly disagree. Maybe that's true in 2020 and 2021. Not now, Tatum is better overall. I think Giannis has peaked as a player. Obviously he can still remain a MVP-candidate for many years to come, but what else do we realistically think he can improve on and get significantly better at? I think Tatum meanwhile still has some room to grow.

You're not gonna get an argument from me about who is more "championship tough", Giannis has the hardware to prove it from 2021. But at the same time, Giannis' team got bounced in the very first round last season, am I supposed to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for that like Tatum often does in situations where the team frustrates or loses a series (and/or Tatum chokes like the 2022 Finals).

Looking at 2023-24 only, if you could choose Tatum or GA, you’d choose Tatum?  I don’t think I would, but that’s something I’ll gladly be wrong about.

Yep, I would.

Same. Tatum is the best two-way player in the NBA.

He may be in the future, but he hasn't been at any point in his career yet.

Who do you have as a better two-way player right now?

Giannis scores more on a higher eFG% with more assists and is a better defender (and rebounder).

Jokic should be 3-time MVP right now.  His offense transcends his adequate defense.

Giannis FG% is high since he dunks so much. He really can’t shoot, though. 27% from 3pt and 64% from the line last season. Calling Jokic’s defense adequate is generous, IMO. I think Embiid is ahead of those two. He plays high level defense and can shoot the ball. I have him and Tatum 1 and 2. It’s an interesting debate, though.

Who cares if somebody is a good outside shooter, if they're a dominant and efficient scorer?

[Goldstar88]

Murray is better than Holiday. What can make it a little close is that Holiday is a much better defender than Murray, but Murray is still the overall better of the two.

I just saw the Giannis > Tatum "significant" thing though and strongly disagree. Maybe that's true in 2020 and 2021. Not now, Tatum is better overall. I think Giannis has peaked as a player. Obviously he can still remain a MVP-candidate for many years to come, but what else do we realistically think he can improve on and get significantly better at? I think Tatum meanwhile still has some room to grow.

You're not gonna get an argument from me about who is more "championship tough", Giannis has the hardware to prove it from 2021. But at the same time, Giannis' team got bounced in the very first round last season, am I supposed to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for that like Tatum often does in situations where the team frustrates or loses a series (and/or Tatum chokes like the 2022 Finals).

Looking at 2023-24 only, if you could choose Tatum or GA, you’d choose Tatum?  I don’t think I would, but that’s something I’ll gladly be wrong about.

Yep, I would.

Same. Tatum is the best two-way player in the NBA.

He may be in the future, but he hasn't been at any point in his career yet.

Who do you have as a better two-way player right now?

Giannis scores more on a higher eFG% with more assists and is a better defender (and rebounder).

Jokic should be 3-time MVP right now.  His offense transcends his adequate defense.

Giannis FG% is high since he dunks so much. He really can’t shoot, though. 27% from 3pt and 64% from the line last season. Calling Jokic’s defense adequate is generous, IMO. I think Embiid is ahead of those two. He plays high level defense and can shoot the ball. I have him and Tatum 1 and 2. It’s an interesting debate, though.

Who cares if somebody is a good outside shooter, if they're a dominant and efficient scorer?

It’s not just from outside, though. Giannis can’t shoot from anywhere, including the FT line. He’s only efficient in the paint.

[Neurotic Guy]

Murray is better than Holiday. What can make it a little close is that Holiday is a much better defender than Murray, but Murray is still the overall better of the two.

I just saw the Giannis > Tatum "significant" thing though and strongly disagree. Maybe that's true in 2020 and 2021. Not now, Tatum is better overall. I think Giannis has peaked as a player. Obviously he can still remain a MVP-candidate for many years to come, but what else do we realistically think he can improve on and get significantly better at? I think Tatum meanwhile still has some room to grow.

You're not gonna get an argument from me about who is more "championship tough", Giannis has the hardware to prove it from 2021. But at the same time, Giannis' team got bounced in the very first round last season, am I supposed to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for that like Tatum often does in situations where the team frustrates or loses a series (and/or Tatum chokes like the 2022 Finals).

Looking at 2023-24 only, if you could choose Tatum or GA, you’d choose Tatum?  I don’t think I would, but that’s something I’ll gladly be wrong about.

Yep, I would.

Same. Tatum is the best two-way player in the NBA.

He may be in the future, but he hasn't been at any point in his career yet.

Who do you have as a better two-way player right now?

Giannis scores more on a higher eFG% with more assists and is a better defender (and rebounder).

Jokic should be 3-time MVP right now.  His offense transcends his adequate defense.

Giannis FG% is high since he dunks so much. He really can’t shoot, though. 27% from 3pt and 64% from the line last season. Calling Jokic’s defense adequate is generous, IMO. I think Embiid is ahead of those two. He plays high level defense and can shoot the ball. I have him and Tatum 1 and 2. It’s an interesting debate, though.

Who cares if somebody is a good outside shooter, if they're a dominant and efficient scorer?

It’s not just from outside, though. Giannis can’t shoot from anywhere, including the FT line. He’s only efficient in the paint.

There have been dominant bigs who have had the same offensive profile. I just think at this moment Giannis is able to dominate games more so than JT. Possibly that will shift this year. Hope it does.

[Moranis]

Murray is better than Holiday. What can make it a little close is that Holiday is a much better defender than Murray, but Murray is still the overall better of the two.

I just saw the Giannis > Tatum "significant" thing though and strongly disagree. Maybe that's true in 2020 and 2021. Not now, Tatum is better overall. I think Giannis has peaked as a player. Obviously he can still remain a MVP-candidate for many years to come, but what else do we realistically think he can improve on and get significantly better at? I think Tatum meanwhile still has some room to grow.

You're not gonna get an argument from me about who is more "championship tough", Giannis has the hardware to prove it from 2021. But at the same time, Giannis' team got bounced in the very first round last season, am I supposed to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for that like Tatum often does in situations where the team frustrates or loses a series (and/or Tatum chokes like the 2022 Finals).

To be fair I specifically said at PF, which is what the lineup comparison was.  Giannis is a SIGNIFICANTLY better PF than Tatum is.  It isn't close at all.  It is much closer comparing Tatum at SF to Giannis at PF, which is why I do think Horford should start moving Tatum to SF where is a significantly better player than he is at PF. 

Holiday isn't the defender he was in his prime.  He is slipping, though is still obviously still an excellent defender.  He is also a 6'4" guard who is 33 and hurt a fair amount.  Those type of players don't usually gradually decline defensively, they often just fall off a cliff.  Hopefully that doesn't happen to Jrue this year, but that time is rapidly approaching, which is why Boston needs to go all in right now.  Make whatever moves the team can without thinking about the cost.  Trade draft picks.  Do everything and go for it.