League investigating Tampering

[tonydelk]

Hmm.  Interesting.  I'm sure the Horford deal has to be thrown in here as well.  I'm not sure what the league can even find but there were a ton of deals reported long before FA began.  It seems that anyone who signed a FA tampered so what are they going to do fine all teams money.  Take away picks.  Thoughts?

Per Zach Lowe and Brian Windhorst of ESPN, the league opened an investigation centered on the timing of some of the earliest reported deals in free-agency deals.
Superstar players such as Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and Kemba Walker agreed to max deals on June 30th, leading to speculation that teams and players had contact prior to the official start of free agency. As the report notes, the league has the power to punish teams it finds to be guilty of tampering ahead of June 30 at 6 p.m. Eastern Time.

SOURCE: ESPN.com
Jul 23, 2019, 2:01 PM ET

[johnnygreen]

I'm not sure the intent of the investigation is to actually punish these teams, but rather find ways to correct the process going forward. Especially in regards to how much control the players have before the process even begins (Kawhi and George), and their ability to talk to each other in setting up teams.

[drooldaddy]

It sure would stink if we got punished for Kemba after we complained about Al.

[Jiri Welsch]

If I recall correctly, the punishments can be pretty harsh for tampering?

The Miami Heat were discovered to have tampered with Pat Riley in 1995 by negotiating with Riley while he was the head coach of the New York Knicks. The Heat "settled," and avoided league-imposed penalties, by compensating the Knicks with $1 million and their first round draft pick in 1996.

[nickagneta]

This is a make believe scenario but pretend it's real:

Kyrie and KD have talked forever about playing together after getting close after playing together for Team USA. They know they both are free agents in the summer of 2019. Now Kyrie sees NYK and BRK both have the ability to open up enough money for two max slots that summer.

Kyrie also has a friend playing on both teams. So Kyrie asks the 2 friends to ask the management of their team if they would consider adding KD and himself in that summer. He says pose it as a hypothetical. Both friends come back and say hypothetically, yes, their teams would so interest that summer.

From there, in the 2018-19 season, Kyrie and Durant just have their agents put out rumors to news sources that each player wants to play in New York City with one of those teams. As the season progresses both players drop hints they won't be returning to their current teams and "wink wink, nudge nudge" try to state they aren't planning to play together on the same team next year.

Both guys at 6:00PM EST on June 30th get calls from the Nets and Knicks, they both say they will be playing in Brooklyn. But, the media had been running wild for weeks talking about where the players would be playing, which was fueled by info put out by both the team and the players. Basically, all the negotiations on where they wanted to be, happened in the media and since both were going to get maxes, the only negotiations were, where did you want to be and not money or length of contract.


Now, under that made up scenario, where is the tampering? Is it in Kyrie's friend initiating a hypothetical question to his team about what they planned for the future additions to the team? Is it tampering if on Christmas Eve at practice, Dinnwiddie starts talking to Marks and mentions to Marks that when last talking to his friend, Kyrie, that Kyrie said he and KD would love to play in Brooklyn next year and Marks just says "Yeah, that would be nice!"?

Is that tampering if the team never contacts Kyrie and KD and everything else is done through leaks to the media that then get reported?

This is where it is going to be so difficult to find tampering. Is it tampering if Tatum starts talking to Danny about a future free agent? And, if so, how do you prove these conversations actually take place?

[gift]

This is a make believe scenario but pretend it's real:

Kyrie and KD have talked forever about playing together after getting close after playing together for Team USA. They know they both are free agents in the summer of 2019. Now Kyrie sees NYK and BRK both have the ability to open up enough money for two max slots that summer.

Kyrie also has a friend playing on both teams. So Kyrie asks the 2 friends to ask the management of their team if they would consider adding KD and himself in that summer. He says pose it as a hypothetical. Both friends come back and say hypothetically, yes, their teams would so interest that summer.

From there, in the 2018-19 season, Kyrie and Durant just have their agents put out rumors to news sources that each player wants to play in New York City with one of those teams. As the season progresses both players drop hints they won't be returning to their current teams and "wink wink, nudge nudge" try to state they aren't planning to play together on the same team next year.

Both guys at 6:00PM EST on June 30th get calls from the Nets and Knicks, they both say they will be playing in Brooklyn. But, the media had been running wild for weeks talking about where the players would be playing, which was fueled by info put out by both the team and the players. Basically, all the negotiations on where they wanted to be, happened in the media and since both were going to get maxes, the only negotiations were, where did you want to be and not money or length of contract.


Now, under that made up scenario, where is the tampering? Is it in Kyrie's friend initiating a hypothetical question to his team about what they planned for the future additions to the team? Is it tampering if on Christmas Eve at practice, Dinnwiddie starts talking to Marks and mentions to Marks that when last talking to his friend, Kyrie, that Kyrie said he and KD would love to play in Brooklyn next year and Marks just says "Yeah, that would be nice!"?

Is that tampering if the team never contacts Kyrie and KD and everything else is done through leaks to the media that then get reported?

This is where it is going to be so difficult to find tampering. Is it tampering if Tatum starts talking to Danny about a future free agent? And, if so, how do you prove these conversations actually take place?

I think your example includes what could technically be tampering, but not enforceable.

Given Adam Silver's recent statement about creating enforceable rules, perhaps the league is investigating the current state of tampering so they can revise what is allowed, not so they can punish the rule breakers.

[nickagneta]

This is a make believe scenario but pretend it's real:

Kyrie and KD have talked forever about playing together after getting close after playing together for Team USA. They know they both are free agents in the summer of 2019. Now Kyrie sees NYK and BRK both have the ability to open up enough money for two max slots that summer.

Kyrie also has a friend playing on both teams. So Kyrie asks the 2 friends to ask the management of their team if they would consider adding KD and himself in that summer. He says pose it as a hypothetical. Both friends come back and say hypothetically, yes, their teams would so interest that summer.

From there, in the 2018-19 season, Kyrie and Durant just have their agents put out rumors to news sources that each player wants to play in New York City with one of those teams. As the season progresses both players drop hints they won't be returning to their current teams and "wink wink, nudge nudge" try to state they aren't planning to play together on the same team next year.

Both guys at 6:00PM EST on June 30th get calls from the Nets and Knicks, they both say they will be playing in Brooklyn. But, the media had been running wild for weeks talking about where the players would be playing, which was fueled by info put out by both the team and the players. Basically, all the negotiations on where they wanted to be, happened in the media and since both were going to get maxes, the only negotiations were, where did you want to be and not money or length of contract.


Now, under that made up scenario, where is the tampering? Is it in Kyrie's friend initiating a hypothetical question to his team about what they planned for the future additions to the team? Is it tampering if on Christmas Eve at practice, Dinnwiddie starts talking to Marks and mentions to Marks that when last talking to his friend, Kyrie, that Kyrie said he and KD would love to play in Brooklyn next year and Marks just says "Yeah, that would be nice!"?

Is that tampering if the team never contacts Kyrie and KD and everything else is done through leaks to the media that then get reported?

This is where it is going to be so difficult to find tampering. Is it tampering if Tatum starts talking to Danny about a future free agent? And, if so, how do you prove these conversations actually take place?

I think your example includes what could technically be tampering, but not enforceable.

Given Adam Silver's recent statement about creating enforceable rules, perhaps the league is investigating the current state of tampering so they can revise what is allowed, not so they can punish the rule breakers.

I agree. I think the league must make rules that are enforceable. The rules in place are way to easy to get around while leaving no traceable proof of circumvention. Put into place rules that are definitive, not easy to circumvent and easy to prove tampering.

I am not sure what those rules are. I think perhaps the subject of the role of agents needs to be addressed here and clarified.

If people think that the NBA would ever try to curtail players trying to make superteams through more strict tampering rules, I think you will be disappointed. I think tampering rules might actually be made more lax and not strict, which would basically condone the actions of players to plan to team up together.

[footey]

I'd be shocked if anyone gets more than a nominal fine, given how rampant it was. 

[mmmmm]

This is a make believe scenario but pretend it's real:

Kyrie and KD have talked forever about playing together after getting close after playing together for Team USA. They know they both are free agents in the summer of 2019. Now Kyrie sees NYK and BRK both have the ability to open up enough money for two max slots that summer.

Kyrie also has a friend playing on both teams. So Kyrie asks the 2 friends to ask the management of their team if they would consider adding KD and himself in that summer. He says pose it as a hypothetical. Both friends come back and say hypothetically, yes, their teams would so interest that summer.

From there, in the 2018-19 season, Kyrie and Durant just have their agents put out rumors to news sources that each player wants to play in New York City with one of those teams. As the season progresses both players drop hints they won't be returning to their current teams and "wink wink, nudge nudge" try to state they aren't planning to play together on the same team next year.

Both guys at 6:00PM EST on June 30th get calls from the Nets and Knicks, they both say they will be playing in Brooklyn. But, the media had been running wild for weeks talking about where the players would be playing, which was fueled by info put out by both the team and the players. Basically, all the negotiations on where they wanted to be, happened in the media and since both were going to get maxes, the only negotiations were, where did you want to be and not money or length of contract.


Now, under that made up scenario, where is the tampering? Is it in Kyrie's friend initiating a hypothetical question to his team about what they planned for the future additions to the team? Is it tampering if on Christmas Eve at practice, Dinnwiddie starts talking to Marks and mentions to Marks that when last talking to his friend, Kyrie, that Kyrie said he and KD would love to play in Brooklyn next year and Marks just says "Yeah, that would be nice!"?

Is that tampering if the team never contacts Kyrie and KD and everything else is done through leaks to the media that then get reported?

This is where it is going to be so difficult to find tampering. Is it tampering if Tatum starts talking to Danny about a future free agent? And, if so, how do you prove these conversations actually take place?

Ultimately, it's tampering if the Commissioner says it's tampering.

It's really no more complicated than that.  This isn't a court of law with rules of evidence.   The CBA gives broad powers to the Commissioner to enforce the best interests in the league.  In particular, the league operates in a 'disallowed by default' mode, in which teams and players are to assume any questionable action is NOT legal unless specifically allowed in the CBA or the Commish.   

That said, given that David Stern already let the cat out of the bag by once specifically suggesting that most "player to player" recruiting is fine (even if technically illegal).   It's hard for Silver to put that cat back in the bag without appearances of breaking with precedent.

Edit:  Should never write these on my darn phone.

[gift]

This is a make believe scenario but pretend it's real:

Kyrie and KD have talked forever about playing together after getting close after playing together for Team USA. They know they both are free agents in the summer of 2019. Now Kyrie sees NYK and BRK both have the ability to open up enough money for two max slots that summer.

Kyrie also has a friend playing on both teams. So Kyrie asks the 2 friends to ask the management of their team if they would consider adding KD and himself in that summer. He says pose it as a hypothetical. Both friends come back and say hypothetically, yes, their teams would so interest that summer.

From there, in the 2018-19 season, Kyrie and Durant just have their agents put out rumors to news sources that each player wants to play in New York City with one of those teams. As the season progresses both players drop hints they won't be returning to their current teams and "wink wink, nudge nudge" try to state they aren't planning to play together on the same team next year.

Both guys at 6:00PM EST on June 30th get calls from the Nets and Knicks, they both say they will be playing in Brooklyn. But, the media had been running wild for weeks talking about where the players would be playing, which was fueled by info put out by both the team and the players. Basically, all the negotiations on where they wanted to be, happened in the media and since both were going to get maxes, the only negotiations were, where did you want to be and not money or length of contract.


Now, under that made up scenario, where is the tampering? Is it in Kyrie's friend initiating a hypothetical question to his team about what they planned for the future additions to the team? Is it tampering if on Christmas Eve at practice, Dinnwiddie starts talking to Marks and mentions to Marks that when last talking to his friend, Kyrie, that Kyrie said he and KD would love to play in Brooklyn next year and Marks just says "Yeah, that would be nice!"?

Is that tampering if the team never contacts Kyrie and KD and everything else is done through leaks to the media that then get reported?

This is where it is going to be so difficult to find tampering. Is it tampering if Tatum starts talking to Danny about a future free agent? And, if so, how do you prove these conversations actually take place?

Ultimately, it's tampering if the Commissioner says it's tampering.

It's really no more complicated than that.  This isn't a court of law with rules of evidence.   The CBA gives broad powers to the Commissioner to enforce the best interests in the league.  In particular, the league operates in a 'disallowed by default' mode, in which teams and players are to assume any questionable action is NOT legal unless specifically allowed in the CBA or the Commish.   

That said, given that Daniel Stern already let the cat out of the bag by once specifically suggesting that most "player to player" recruiting is fine (even if technically illegal).   It's hard for Silver to put that cat back in the bag without appearances of breaking with precedent.

Whatever Daniel Stern said while filming Rookie of the Year should be disavowed. The league should only act on proclamations made during The Wonder Years or as a member of the Wet Bandits.

[RJ87]

I think people are going to be disappointed if they believe anyone is going to be punished for tampering. The only thing likely to come from this is that teams will be free to start talking to free agents once their teams' season ends or they're eliminated from the playoffs.

[nickagneta]

This is a make believe scenario but pretend it's real:

Kyrie and KD have talked forever about playing together after getting close after playing together for Team USA. They know they both are free agents in the summer of 2019. Now Kyrie sees NYK and BRK both have the ability to open up enough money for two max slots that summer.

Kyrie also has a friend playing on both teams. So Kyrie asks the 2 friends to ask the management of their team if they would consider adding KD and himself in that summer. He says pose it as a hypothetical. Both friends come back and say hypothetically, yes, their teams would so interest that summer.

From there, in the 2018-19 season, Kyrie and Durant just have their agents put out rumors to news sources that each player wants to play in New York City with one of those teams. As the season progresses both players drop hints they won't be returning to their current teams and "wink wink, nudge nudge" try to state they aren't planning to play together on the same team next year.

Both guys at 6:00PM EST on June 30th get calls from the Nets and Knicks, they both say they will be playing in Brooklyn. But, the media had been running wild for weeks talking about where the players would be playing, which was fueled by info put out by both the team and the players. Basically, all the negotiations on where they wanted to be, happened in the media and since both were going to get maxes, the only negotiations were, where did you want to be and not money or length of contract.


Now, under that made up scenario, where is the tampering? Is it in Kyrie's friend initiating a hypothetical question to his team about what they planned for the future additions to the team? Is it tampering if on Christmas Eve at practice, Dinnwiddie starts talking to Marks and mentions to Marks that when last talking to his friend, Kyrie, that Kyrie said he and KD would love to play in Brooklyn next year and Marks just says "Yeah, that would be nice!"?

Is that tampering if the team never contacts Kyrie and KD and everything else is done through leaks to the media that then get reported?

This is where it is going to be so difficult to find tampering. Is it tampering if Tatum starts talking to Danny about a future free agent? And, if so, how do you prove these conversations actually take place?

Ultimately, it's tampering if the Commissioner says it's tampering.

It's really no more complicated than that.  This isn't a court of law with rules of evidence.   The CBA gives broad powers to the Commissioner to enforce the best interests in the league.  In particular, the league operates in a 'disallowed by default' mode, in which teams and players are to assume any questionable action is NOT legal unless specifically allowed in the CBA or the Commish.   

That said, given that Daniel Stern already let the cat out of the bag by once specifically suggesting that most "player to player" recruiting is fine (even if technically illegal).   It's hard for Silver to put that cat back in the bag without appearances of breaking with precedent.

So not a court of law with rules of evidence but precedent was set.....lol.

Also, Daniel Stern? .....More lol.

[Rakulp]

I think people are going to be disappointed if they believe anyone is going to be punished for tampering. The only thing likely to come from this is that teams will be free to start talking to free agents once their teams' season ends or they're eliminated from the playoffs.

Agree...think back to that afternoon.  Free agency didn't officially begin until 6 PM EDT...at that time, on the nose, in the first minute, Woj's twitter feed exploded with confirmed deals, including Kemba to Boston.

Somebody talked to somebody...and it was league wide.  It's one thing to want to slap a wrist, but it's another when you're having to do it to ALL the teams.

This is one of those cases, albeit few, where instead of enforcing the "rules", this should serve as a catalyst to changing the rules that obviously don't work.

[johnnygreen]

This is a make believe scenario but pretend it's real:

Kyrie and KD have talked forever about playing together after getting close after playing together for Team USA. They know they both are free agents in the summer of 2019. Now Kyrie sees NYK and BRK both have the ability to open up enough money for two max slots that summer.

Kyrie also has a friend playing on both teams. So Kyrie asks the 2 friends to ask the management of their team if they would consider adding KD and himself in that summer. He says pose it as a hypothetical. Both friends come back and say hypothetically, yes, their teams would so interest that summer.

From there, in the 2018-19 season, Kyrie and Durant just have their agents put out rumors to news sources that each player wants to play in New York City with one of those teams. As the season progresses both players drop hints they won't be returning to their current teams and "wink wink, nudge nudge" try to state they aren't planning to play together on the same team next year.

Both guys at 6:00PM EST on June 30th get calls from the Nets and Knicks, they both say they will be playing in Brooklyn. But, the media had been running wild for weeks talking about where the players would be playing, which was fueled by info put out by both the team and the players. Basically, all the negotiations on where they wanted to be, happened in the media and since both were going to get maxes, the only negotiations were, where did you want to be and not money or length of contract.


Now, under that made up scenario, where is the tampering? Is it in Kyrie's friend initiating a hypothetical question to his team about what they planned for the future additions to the team? Is it tampering if on Christmas Eve at practice, Dinnwiddie starts talking to Marks and mentions to Marks that when last talking to his friend, Kyrie, that Kyrie said he and KD would love to play in Brooklyn next year and Marks just says "Yeah, that would be nice!"?

Is that tampering if the team never contacts Kyrie and KD and everything else is done through leaks to the media that then get reported?

This is where it is going to be so difficult to find tampering. Is it tampering if Tatum starts talking to Danny about a future free agent? And, if so, how do you prove these conversations actually take place?

Ultimately, it's tampering if the Commissioner says it's tampering.

It's really no more complicated than that.  This isn't a court of law with rules of evidence.   The CBA gives broad powers to the Commissioner to enforce the best interests in the league.  In particular, the league operates in a 'disallowed by default' mode, in which teams and players are to assume any questionable action is NOT legal unless specifically allowed in the CBA or the Commish.   

That said, given that Daniel Stern already let the cat out of the bag by once specifically suggesting that most "player to player" recruiting is fine (even if technically illegal).   It's hard for Silver to put that cat back in the bag without appearances of breaking with precedent.

Whatever Daniel Stern said while filming Rookie of the Year should be disavowed. The league should only act on proclamations made during The Wonder Years or as a member of the Wet Bandits.

Whatever you do, make sure not to ask him how to record one TV show using a VCR, while watching another show. God forbid, you ask him how to set the clock on the VCR too. (City Slickers)

[philr13]

If the league is serious about making intelligent adjustments to the tampering rules, it needs to investigate some of the deals that just took place. That doesn't mean they need to punish anyone, but they can't make informed decisions without some investigation.

That said, they may find one or two deals that simply went too far, and some kind of action might be taken.

My guess is that none of the deals that ended up being sign-and-trade are in jeopardy because the team that lost it's star player got compensated. Leonard held meetings with 3 teams after the moratorium was lifted, so I doubt any action is taken there either.