Author Topic: Stevens Looking for a Top 10  (Read 2421 times)

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Re: Stevens Looking for a Top 10
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2015, 10:34:43 PM »

Offline trickybilly

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So many people on here just crapping on Lee.

That's going to be a huge mistake when it's all said and done.  This is a legit all star player, no matter the age.  He helps in many different areas, and those are all areas that this team stunk at last season and beyond.  The guy is going to help a ton, same with Amir.

I agree.

Lee and Sully are liable to steal the show .

Lee will be solid no matter what.

Sully is an odd one for sure. Something does not add up about his weight issues. Either he had some completely confounding psychological problem which has been "solved", evidenced by the before and after photos and the "wow, what was I thinking" (is it possible he was thinking "hmm, might wait until contract year to sort this little problem out...), or it is just a character trait that will return once the contract is signed, and the long hard slog of a three to four year project gets tiresome...

I think the best thing will be for him to play reasonably well, nothing mind-blowing, accept a threeyear deal around 30 mill, or something with a non-guaranteed bit.. then develop further.
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Re: Stevens Looking for a Top 10
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2015, 10:41:35 PM »

Offline KeepRondo

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Thread so needs a better title thought is was going to be

Looking for a top ten player to acquire.
thought the same

Re: Stevens Looking for a Top 10
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2015, 10:46:19 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I think the Ball Handler / Wing positions are pretty easy to work out, with three guys for each:

Ball Handlers: Smart, Thomas, Turner
Wings: Bradley, Crowder, Jerebko

That leaves four spots in the 'big' positions.

Firstly, I think Olynyk and Johnson are locked in since both offer a very valuable set of skills that no other big on the team can match:

Olynyk
Olynyk is a legitimate outside threat, who opponents must respect from three-point range.  He's also a very good footwork and ball handling for a big, so if the defense runs hard at him to challenge the shot, he can put the ball on the floor and drive to the basket.  When he gets to the basket he is a very good finisher (67% FG inside 3 feet) which means the defense must respect not only his shot, but also his drive.  If he is trapped or double teamed then he's got the court vision and passing ability to find an open teammate, and if he's fouled he is a solid free throw shooter.  Olynyk is also an good offensive rebounder (3.0 Off Reb Per-36) which he rarely gets credit for.  All of this combined makes him a tougher cover than people realise, especially as a 7-footer.   He's easily the most offensively versatile big on our roster, and the only thing that really holds him back is foul trouble (around 6 fouls Per-36) which limits his potential playing time.  Until he works out how to play D without fouling, he will most likely be limited to a bench role. 

Johnson
Johnson is a unique player for us because he is effective at both protecting the rim and defending the perimeter.  He is capable of challenging shots around the basket (career 1.7 Blk Per-36) and is also capable of pulling in the rebound (career 9.1 Reb Per-36) to finish the possession.  On the other end of the court he is capable of getting a lot of second chance points since he is an excellent offensive rebound (career 3.4 Off Reb Per-36) and finisher (career 70% FG inside 3 feet).  Johnson is basically the perfect "scrap guy" because he is a guy who can impact the game on both ends of the floor without ever needing a play called for him.  His defensive versatility basically means he is (to our defense) what Olynyk is to our offense.

So, that leaves Zeller, Lee and Sully fighting for the final two 'big' spots.

Personally, I'd take Zeller first.  Out of these three guys he is the tallest, the most mobile, the most defensively versatile (not like that's saying much) and the most offensively efficient.

That leaves Lee and Sully who, on the surface, appear to be very similar players.  I'd like to tell myself this is a hard decision, but sadly that's not the case at all. 

Lee offers the following advantages over Sully:
1) Significantly better finisher around the basket - 67% vs 62% inside 3 ft)
2) Far more efficient scorer - 1.24 vs 1.09 Points Per FGA
3) Decent mobility and ball handling - can drive to the basket (unlike Sully)
4) Superior conditioning - allows him to bring more consistent effort and reduces injury risk
5) Far superior at drawing fouls - Career 33% Free Throw Rate, vs 18% for Sully)
6) Veteran leadership - He has both "All-Star" and "NBA Champion" on his resume
7) Better attitude - Doesn't have Sully's poor shot selection, or his tendency to attract technicals

Sully offers the following advantages over Lee:
1) Three-point range (albeit too poor a percentage for it to be a major advantage)
2) Youth (a moot point if he signs elsewhere in FA)

I'm going to say that Lee wins this one pretty comfortably, so with all that established my rotation would be something like:

PG: Smart (28 min) / (28 min) Thomas
SG: Bradley (28 min) / (12 min) Turner
SF: Crowder (25 min) / (23 min) Jerebko
PF: Johnson (24 min) / (24 min) Lee
C: Zeller (26 min) / (22 min) Olynyk

That leaves the 'emergency backup' rotation of:

Sully
Rozier
Hunter
Mickey
Young/Jones
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 11:08:25 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Stevens Looking for a Top 10
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2015, 12:59:20 AM »

Offline Hemingway

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  Where in the world do people get the idea that Zeller is better than Olynyk. There is literally nothing he does better than K.O. and a ton of things he is way worse at.  Every advanced statistic tells you that there is no comparison and yet people still think he is somehow better.  Mind boggling.

Maybe by watching the games?

Re: Stevens Looking for a Top 10
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2015, 01:45:15 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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  Where in the world do people get the idea that Zeller is better than Olynyk. There is literally nothing he does better than K.O. and a ton of things he is way worse at.  Every advanced statistic tells you that there is no comparison and yet people still think he is somehow better.  Mind boggling.

Maybe by watching the games?

haha

I wouldn't say Zeller is better than Olynyk.

They are both very good players in their own ways, I feel they are about on par overall to be honest. 

Re: Stevens Looking for a Top 10
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2015, 03:29:52 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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I don't think it matters who was ahead at the end of last season. They're both a similar level but with different strengths. But I see them as 4th and 5th best bigs entering camp. Maybe Zeller has an advantage as a "true" center but I doubt that counts for much it Stevens head considering that he doesn't use traditional positions.

When you look at who best compliment Sully, Lee and Johnson it's clearly KO. He's the best stretch big and a better passer than Zeller. I don't have him in my starting lineup so his defence is adequate enough and not a concern.

I like Zeller and I thought he should have got more playing time last year, but now we have a changed roster and it leaves him as the odd man out.

Re: Stevens Looking for a Top 10
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2015, 08:37:58 AM »

Online Moranis

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I would do something like this

PG - Thomas 30, Smart 18
SG - Smart 18, Bradley 30
SF - Turner 28, Crowder 20
PF - Sullinger 24, Lee 15, Olynyk 9
C - Johnson 28, Zeller 15, Olynyk 5

Total
Smart - 36
Thomas - 30
Bradley - 30
Turner - 28
Johnson - 28
Sullinger - 24
Crowder - 20
Lee - 15
Zeller - 15
Olynyk - 14

Team clearly needs a real legit starter at center and needs to consolidate the PF's.

But why play Lee, Zeller, and Olynyk essentially 15 minutes each? Why not give the best two 22-23 mpg?  Clearly, the answer isn't because of fatigue. Any in shape NBA player can play 20-25 mpg no problem.

So are we just being nice to the lesser player? If so, this isn't Little League; we aren't compelled to play anyone.

Are we trying to keep trade value up? Maybe, but how much is 15 mpg of any of those guys going to do to entice anyone to give us anything of worth?

Maybe you can argue they all have different styles, but all 3 aren't known for their defense and even Zeller who supposedly is a real center still isn't a rim protector or a post force.

So really, I'd rather just see Stevens pick the top 4 and bench th 5th. Because quite frankly, while we do have depth, we have no stars. So if Zeller/Olynyk/Lee can't crack the top 4, he has no one to blame but himself.
Because they each bring different things to the table.  In one game we may need Lee's interior offense, in one game we may need Zeller's interior post defense/rebounding, and in one game we may need Olynyk's outside shooting so you want to keep all of them fairly fresh, engaged, and in sync.  Plus, the C's need to know what they have in Zeller and Olynyk (and Sullinger) for future evaluation purposes.  Consistent and steady playing time will do that.  Furthermore, if you play players in shorter periods, presumably you are getting more effort and energy for the time on the floor.  If you know you are only playing 15ish minutes, you can go full bore and make the most of your time.  Olynyk at 100% might be better than Lee at 85% (which is what might happen if you increase his minutes a great deal) even if Lee at 100% is better than Olynyk at 100%.  It is all about maximizing usage. 

Ideally someone like Rozier or Young will earn some playing time to lessen the wing burden as well.  On a deep team without any real top level talent the way to win is to always be playing 100% and just outwork other teams and hope you wear them down.  To do that Boston needs as many people as possible firing on all cylinders. 
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Re: Stevens Looking for a Top 10
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2015, 09:35:55 AM »

Online Surferdad

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Injuries may solve this problem before the season even starts, but I would be shocked if Zeller is the odd man out.  Now of course this is open for debate, but I felt Zeller was ahead of both Sullinger and Olynyk at the end of last season in Stevens rotation (although harder to judge since Olynyk missed February and Sullinger missed March and we all know has conditioning issues).  Maybe it was just a matchup situation, but when it mattered most Zeller was starting and playing more minutes than either Sullinger or Olynyk in both the playoffs and when they were fighting for a spot in April.

Right now, I bet Zeller is penciled in as Stevens starting Center (with Johnson at PF, and probably Lee used as a spark plug off the bench).  It's Zeller's spot to lose in my mind.
...or even after the season starts, but this is still the main factor in the rotation/minutes. Injuries are inevitable and the Celtics are poised to weather injuries better than any other team.

Stevens said top 10 but he didn't say it would be the same 10. I think he meant that that is the number he can manage on any given night. Ainge also said to expect a lot of different combinations.

In my twisted mind, the only debate is who plays on opening night. After that, expect many many combinations. I do expect to see the rookies for a few minutes here and there too. 

Re: Stevens Looking for a Top 10
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2015, 10:05:49 AM »

Offline Jon

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I would do something like this

PG - Thomas 30, Smart 18
SG - Smart 18, Bradley 30
SF - Turner 28, Crowder 20
PF - Sullinger 24, Lee 15, Olynyk 9
C - Johnson 28, Zeller 15, Olynyk 5

Total
Smart - 36
Thomas - 30
Bradley - 30
Turner - 28
Johnson - 28
Sullinger - 24
Crowder - 20
Lee - 15
Zeller - 15
Olynyk - 14

Team clearly needs a real legit starter at center and needs to consolidate the PF's.

But why play Lee, Zeller, and Olynyk essentially 15 minutes each? Why not give the best two 22-23 mpg?  Clearly, the answer isn't because of fatigue. Any in shape NBA player can play 20-25 mpg no problem.

So are we just being nice to the lesser player? If so, this isn't Little League; we aren't compelled to play anyone.

Are we trying to keep trade value up? Maybe, but how much is 15 mpg of any of those guys going to do to entice anyone to give us anything of worth?

Maybe you can argue they all have different styles, but all 3 aren't known for their defense and even Zeller who supposedly is a real center still isn't a rim protector or a post force.

So really, I'd rather just see Stevens pick the top 4 and bench th 5th. Because quite frankly, while we do have depth, we have no stars. So if Zeller/Olynyk/Lee can't crack the top 4, he has no one to blame but himself.
Because they each bring different things to the table.  In one game we may need Lee's interior offense, in one game we may need Zeller's interior post defense/rebounding, and in one game we may need Olynyk's outside shooting so you want to keep all of them fairly fresh, engaged, and in sync.  Plus, the C's need to know what they have in Zeller and Olynyk (and Sullinger) for future evaluation purposes.  Consistent and steady playing time will do that.  Furthermore, if you play players in shorter periods, presumably you are getting more effort and energy for the time on the floor.  If you know you are only playing 15ish minutes, you can go full bore and make the most of your time.  Olynyk at 100% might be better than Lee at 85% (which is what might happen if you increase his minutes a great deal) even if Lee at 100% is better than Olynyk at 100%.  It is all about maximizing usage. 

Ideally someone like Rozier or Young will earn some playing time to lessen the wing burden as well.  On a deep team without any real top level talent the way to win is to always be playing 100% and just outwork other teams and hope you wear them down.  To do that Boston needs as many people as possible firing on all cylinders.

I don't really buy that.  I get if we're talking about how players can't play "full bore" if they're being asked to play 40 mpg as Doc used to ask of Ray and PP.  But a well-conditioned NBA player can easily play "full bore" for 24 mpg just as easily as he can for 15 mpg.  And I'd argue that playing in such short spurts would hurt a player's ability to develop a rhythm and really get going in a game. 

I'm also not buying all that much that we really need to adjust our rotation based on other team.  First, I don't really like that idea from a philosophical standpoint.  Second, I'm not that firmly persuaded that some of these guys are all that different from each other.  You reference Lee's "interior offense" and Zeller's "post defense/rebounding."  But what does Zeller really bring that Lee doesn't?  They're both good rebounders.  And while I'll grant you that Zeller is a better defender, he's also not a shot blocking threat.  So if Lee is a superior offensive player, at least an equal in rebounding, and Zeller doesn't offer us any sort of rim protection, why are we playing him for 15 mpg when we could just give those minutes to Lee and Olynyk?