CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Phantom255x on November 04, 2017, 07:45:31 PM
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So yeah, I'm debating with my Lakers friend about this.
Obviously, everyone has DIFFERENT definitions/standards when identifying who the superstars/transcendental players in this league are, and who are simply just all-stars but not superstars, etc. The media also sometimes has its own standards when creating rankings and separating players into the tiers as well.
So, what is your opinion on where Kyrie is right now?
Yes, he's still 25 years old (only), and has a ton of room to grow and all, but do you consider him a superstar now, or do you think he's right now a fringe superstar (sort of like Isaiah Thomas last year, who was a legit all-star who could make superstar plays on offense, but overall wasn't regarded a superstar).
Don't mean to start any big arguments here or negativity, I'm just curious to hear thoughts about this as well. ;D
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Superstar. He hasn’t even peaked in his prime yet
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When you start up NBA live 18 for the first time, it's an allstar type game featuring LeBron, kahwi, Durant, curry, Davis, harden, George, Westbrook, Greek freak and kyrie. That's their top 10 and I agree. So to me, he's a superstar because he's a top 10 player.
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There are a lot of definitons of SS as the OP wrote.
I'll try to make mine;
If noone can stop you from scoring efficiently when the game is on the line, you are a superstar.
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There are a lot of definitons of SS as the OP wrote.
I'll try to make mine;
If noone can stop you from scoring efficiently when the game is on the line, you are a superstar.
Yep, there are lots of definitions and standards people use.
I was just curious to hear what people HERE thought about it.
And I'm loving Kyrie's ability to finish games and make it look easy at the same time ;D
And you can't even say "b/c he's facing bad teams" because OKC, MIL and SAS are far from bad teams LOL.
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When you start up NBA live 18 for the first time, it's an allstar type game featuring LeBron, kahwi, Durant, curry, Davis, harden, George, Westbrook, Greek freak and kyrie. That's their top 10 and I agree. So to me, he's a superstar because he's a top 10 player.
Yeah in my list I have 9 of these guys, except I have Cousins in my Top-10 as well while Kyrie isn't.
CP3 you can make a case for Top-10 as well but I have him just outside.
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https://www.sbnation.com/2016/5/4/11583556/nba-superstars-russell-westbrook-james-harden-draymond-green
From last year. SBNation clearly says NOPE but has Lillard as Next so take it with a grain of salt.
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https://www.sbnation.com/2016/5/4/11583556/nba-superstars-russell-westbrook-james-harden-draymond-green
From last year. SBNation clearly says NOPE but has Lillard as Next so take it with a grain of salt.
The other joke is that Draymond is considered a superstar and listed as "outlier" (hinting he's Top-10 to Top-15 in entire league).
I remember even this year ESPN and SI both listed Draymond Green at #10 in their NBA player rankings. ???
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https://www.sbnation.com/2016/5/4/11583556/nba-superstars-russell-westbrook-james-harden-draymond-green
From last year. SBNation clearly says NOPE but has Lillard as Next so take it with a grain of salt.
The other joke is that Draymond is considered a superstar and listed as "outlier" (hinting he's Top-10 to Top-15 in entire league).
I remember even this year ESPN and SI both listed Draymond Green at #10 in their NBA player rankings. ???
I don't get it either. The only elite skill Draymond possesses is defense.
His passing is decent for his position, but I think if you were to look at it objectively, it wouldn't be anything special. Perhaps they judge Draymond on his ability to get triple doubles or something because I don't see what makes him a top 10-15 player at all.
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Kyrie is absolutely a Superstar in my view. He has put up Superstar performances on the biggest stage many times throughout his career. He is also demonstrating an ability to adapt to a difficult system at a quick rate. His chemistry with Horford is amazing to see at such an early stage. Kyrie is making his teammates better, contributing on both ends of the floor, and coming up with big shots when we need it most.
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Kyrie is absolutely a Superstar in my view. He has put up Superstar performances on the biggest stage many times throughout his career. He is also demonstrating an ability to adapt to a difficult system at a quick rate. His chemistry with Horford is amazing to see at such an early stage. Kyrie is making his teammates better, contributing on both ends of the floor, and comino up with big shots when we need it most.
This is what’s most impressive to me. It seems like Kyrie has made Al a better player.
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Kyrie is a star not a superstar. A superstar is top 5 in MVP voting year after year.
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Kyrie is a star not a superstar. A superstar is top 5 in MVP voting year after year.
Agreed. For Kyrie to be a superstar, like 30 other players would be considered superstars. At that point, what's the point of using the term? It's then synonymous with "star". But whatever, I'm fine calling IT, D. Lillard, etc. superstars. I'm biased, though, as I like how they present themselves as people, too.
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Kyrie is a star not a superstar. A superstar is top 5 in MVP voting year after year.
I think that's fair. For the last 5 years these are the players that have made it to the top 5 in MVP voting (and the amount of times they've done it and won it)
Lebron (5 times) - won it 1 time
Durant (3 times) - won it 1 time
Westbrook (3 times) - won it 1 time
Harden (3 times)
Curry (2 times) - won it 2 times
Leonard (2 times)
Melo (1 time)
I. Thomas (1 time)
A. Davis (1 time)
Joakim Noah (1 time)
B. Griffin (1 time)
Kobe (1 time)
C. Paul (1 time)
So if someone wanted to say that the superstars of the last 5 years are Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Curry and Leonard, I think the statement would be fair. You can argue that the rest had superstar seasons, but aren't necessarily superstars.
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Kyrie is a star not a superstar. A superstar is top 5 in MVP voting year after year.
Agreed. For Kyrie to be a superstar, like 30 other players would be considered superstars. At that point, what's the point of using the term? It's then synonymous with "star". But whatever, I'm fine calling IT, D. Lillard, etc. superstars. I'm biased, though, as I like how they present themselves as people, too.
So being a role model is a requirement for being a superstar? That's flawed, at best. It legitimately has nothing to do with their on-court production. Either they produce at a high level or they don't. Isaiah was top 5 in MVP voting once, but overall neither he nor Lillard's resume compares to Irving's (NBA champion, 4× NBA All-Star, All-Star Game MVP, All-NBA Third Team, NBA Rookie of the Year, NBA All-Rookie First Team, USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year, FIBA World Cup MVP, FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medalist, Olympic Gold Medalist). They guy hit one of the biggest shots in NBA Finals history while playing a key part in delivering a title to a city that hadn't seen one in 52 years.
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Kyrie is a star not a superstar. A superstar is top 5 in MVP voting year after year.
Agreed. For Kyrie to be a superstar, like 30 other players would be considered superstars. At that point, what's the point of using the term? It's then synonymous with "star". But whatever, I'm fine calling IT, D. Lillard, etc. superstars. I'm biased, though, as I like how they present themselves as people, too.
So being a role model is a requirement for being a superstar? That's flawed, at best. It legitimately has nothing to do with their on-court production. Either they produce at a high level or they don't. Isaiah was top 5 in MVP voting once, but overall neither he nor Lillard's resume compares to Irving's (NBA champion, 4× NBA All-Star, All-Star Game MVP, All-NBA Third Team, NBA Rookie of the Year, NBA All-Rookie First Team, USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year, FIBA World Cup MVP, FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medalist, Olympic Gold Medalist). They guy hit one of the biggest shots in NBA Finals history while playing a key part in delivering a title to a city that hadn't seen one in 52 years.
Your interpretation of what I said is an enormous leap. You clearly didn't read my post, just a personal attack, perhaps b/c you're a fan of Kyrie's game/commercials/post-game attire, etc. Statistically, IT, Lillard, and many others are just as good as Irving. So, if you're cool with a league of 30 superstars, fine by me. But that is objective as one can get.
As for accolades and a champion -- he is a star... that was playing with the best player of a generation. He has a lot to prove yet in Boston. Superstars can carry teams on their back for a season, through the playoffs, etc.
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Kyrie was on the floor last night against the reigning mvp and a couple of former all-nba forwards, and was the best player on the floor.
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Kyrie is a star not a superstar. A superstar is top 5 in MVP voting year after year.
Agreed. For Kyrie to be a superstar, like 30 other players would be considered superstars. At that point, what's the point of using the term? It's then synonymous with "star". But whatever, I'm fine calling IT, D. Lillard, etc. superstars. I'm biased, though, as I like how they present themselves as people, too.
So being a role model is a requirement for being a superstar? That's flawed, at best. It legitimately has nothing to do with their on-court production. Either they produce at a high level or they don't. Isaiah was top 5 in MVP voting once, but overall neither he nor Lillard's resume compares to Irving's (NBA champion, 4× NBA All-Star, All-Star Game MVP, All-NBA Third Team, NBA Rookie of the Year, NBA All-Rookie First Team, USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year, FIBA World Cup MVP, FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medalist, Olympic Gold Medalist). They guy hit one of the biggest shots in NBA Finals history while playing a key part in delivering a title to a city that hadn't seen one in 52 years.
Your interpretation of what I said is an enormous leap. You clearly didn't read my post, just a personal attack, perhaps b/c you're a fan of Kyrie's game/commercials/post-game attire, etc. Statistically, IT, Lillard, and many others are just as good as Irving. So, if you're cool with a league of 30 superstars, fine by me. But that is objective as one can get.
As for accolades and a champion -- he is a star... that was playing with the best player of a generation. He has a lot to prove yet in Boston. Superstars can carry teams on their back for a season, through the playoffs, etc.
Yes, listing his accolades is a personal attack on you. Absolutely.
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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.
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Be the best player on a ring or win at least one MVP or make All NBA first team twice in a row and we can talk about superstar. Not before.
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Kyrie is a star not a superstar. A superstar is top 5 in MVP voting year after year.
Agreed. For Kyrie to be a superstar, like 30 other players would be considered superstars. At that point, what's the point of using the term? It's then synonymous with "star". But whatever, I'm fine calling IT, D. Lillard, etc. superstars. I'm biased, though, as I like how they present themselves as people, too.
So being a role model is a requirement for being a superstar? That's flawed, at best. It legitimately has nothing to do with their on-court production. Either they produce at a high level or they don't. Isaiah was top 5 in MVP voting once, but overall neither he nor Lillard's resume compares to Irving's (NBA champion, 4× NBA All-Star, All-Star Game MVP, All-NBA Third Team, NBA Rookie of the Year, NBA All-Rookie First Team, USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year, FIBA World Cup MVP, FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medalist, Olympic Gold Medalist). They guy hit one of the biggest shots in NBA Finals history while playing a key part in delivering a title to a city that hadn't seen one in 52 years.
Your interpretation of what I said is an enormous leap. You clearly didn't read my post, just a personal attack, perhaps b/c you're a fan of Kyrie's game/commercials/post-game attire, etc. Statistically, IT, Lillard, and many others are just as good as Irving. So, if you're cool with a league of 30 superstars, fine by me. But that is objective as one can get.
As for accolades and a champion -- he is a star... that was playing with the best player of a generation. He has a lot to prove yet in Boston. Superstars can carry teams on their back for a season, through the playoffs, etc.
Yes, listing his accolades is a personal attack on you. Absolutely.
Clear misinterpretation of what I said. Again, I am fine labeling ~30 players as "superstars" because it wouldn't affect how I put my pants on in the AM, and I subjectively like a lot of those players. Your listing his accolades was secondary to your original claim that I'm basing my player ranking on how I feel about them off the court.
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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.
So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.
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LeBron, KD, Curry, Westbrook, Harden and Kawhi and Brow are all superstars imo.
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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.
So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.
If the term "Superstar" is restricted to players that can carry a team to greatness on their own then LeBron is the only one IMO. This may sound crazy but LeBron can accomplish more without help than any other player and it's not even close. Durant, Kawhi, and Steph couldn't carry a team without a great system and/or talent surrounding them. My definition of carrying a team would be a 1-2 seed every season and multiple round playoff run regardless of circumstance. LeBron isn't the greatest closer against the best teams but he can beat up on the rest of the league better than any player ever has.
As for Kyrie, his past two Finals have been outstanding. I don't think there are too many players that would have complimented LeBron as well as Kyrie. The list isn't small but it certainly isn't 30 deep.
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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.
So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.
Okay... like who?
He was an All-Star before Lebron went back to Cleveland. He was Rookie of the Year before Lebron went back to Cleveland. His international team success came after Lebron retired from international play.
Just as you accuse me of trying to legitimatize his status as a superstar because "I'm a fan of his commercials/post-game attire" and off the court persona (which, frankly, I've work around athletes long enough to know that all of these guys' off the court personas are crafted by managers, publicists, and agents and shouldn't be accepted as real indications of their day to day lives), I wonder if you're trying a little too hard to attribute his success to Lebron because you don't like him.
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Well, yep as I expected this is a pretty big debate :P
FWIW I think Kyrie is an all star and fringe superstar (not bonafide superstar), but my friend disagrees.
I see 10 superstars in this league but Kyrie isn't one of them in my books.
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I think he is. Here are some of the boxes I think a superstar should check off. He gets most of them
1. Top 20 player for at least 3 years. Yes
2. Top 10 MVP candidate at least 1x. No
3. Has won accolades or Championships. Yes
4. Is a elite scorer. Yes
5. Is a leader for a team. Yes
6. Is dominant winning his match up most nights. Yes
7. Elevates his team's play. Yes
8. Clutch. Yes
9. Guy you buy tickets to watch in person. Yes
10. Known by even casual NBA fans. Yes
11. Media hyped player. Yes
12. A guy a team is satisfied just to "contain". Yes
13. Has his own merchandise or tons of sponsers. Yes
14. Holds/Held a few records. Minor
15. Has legend/epic performances. Yes
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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.
So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.
I literally stated "All-Star starters" as a reasonable criteria for being a superstar. So, no, in my opinion, there are not 30 superstars.
Just enjoy the Kyrie show and hope he shows incremental improvements as he begins to enter his prime. We all know you didn't like the trade, but there is no reason you can't enjoy the ride. It's a pretty good one so far.
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LeBron, KD, Curry, Westbrook, Harden and Kawhi and Brow are all superstars imo.
Yep, and so is Cousins, Giannis and maybe even KAT.
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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.
So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.
Okay... like who?
He was an All-Star before Lebron went back to Cleveland. He was Rookie of the Year before Lebron went back to Cleveland. His international team success came after Lebron retired from international play.
I think it's easier to question which all-stars would not. Would the majority of all the all-star selections during their time together in CLE not have had similar success?
He was an all-star before LeBron, and ROY, on a terrible team. He also hasn't shown any improvement since. As for his Olympic play... he averaged 11 ppg in 2016.
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I think a super star is top 3 nba teams 3 times. KI is close to getting there. But he is our superstar and that he is good enough to me. First in th east is all I care and he has put us there.
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LeBron, KD, Curry, Westbrook, Harden and Kawhi and Brow are all superstars imo.
Yep, and so is Cousins, Giannis and KAT.
Yup.
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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.
So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.
I literally stated "All-Star starters" as a reasonable criteria for being a superstar. So, no, in my opinion, there are not 30 superstars.
Just enjoy the Kyrie show and hope he shows incremental improvements as he begins to enter his prime. We all know you didn't like the trade, but there is no reason you can't enjoy the ride. It's a pretty good one so far.
Fair enough, I missed "starters." I enjoy watching the Celtics. Jaylen and Tatum have been surprising thus far. Horford is benefiting from Kyrie's playmaking ability, and vice versa. There's not a player in the league (other than LeBron) that I've disliked more than Kyrie for the past 5 years. I'm sure if that was your experience, you would also have a tough time warming up to him.
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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.
So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.
I literally stated "All-Star starters" as a reasonable criteria for being a superstar. So, no, in my opinion, there are not 30 superstars.
Just enjoy the Kyrie show and hope he shows incremental improvements as he begins to enter his prime. We all know you didn't like the trade, but there is no reason you can't enjoy the ride. It's a pretty good one so far.
Fair enough, I missed "starters." I enjoy watching the Celtics. Jaylen and Tatum have been surprising thus far. Horford is benefiting from Kyrie's playmaking ability, and vice versa. There's not a player in the league (other than LeBron) that I've disliked more than Kyrie for the past 5 years. I'm sure if that was your experience, you would also have a tough time warming up to him.
It is weird, because you thought Isaiah, Crowder, ETC. would defeat the "evil empire of the East" in the future once they added more talent, and Kyrie also annoyed me A TON in the past 3-4 years (b/c of his talent obviously), but now we have Kyrie and the "good guys" (IT/Crowder) are with Lebron in Cleveland lol.
Was strange at first (when trade was made). Just so rare it happens between two top teams within a conference.
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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.
So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.
I literally stated "All-Star starters" as a reasonable criteria for being a superstar. So, no, in my opinion, there are not 30 superstars.
Just enjoy the Kyrie show and hope he shows incremental improvements as he begins to enter his prime. We all know you didn't like the trade, but there is no reason you can't enjoy the ride. It's a pretty good one so far.
Fair enough, I missed "starters." I enjoy watching the Celtics. Jaylen and Tatum have been surprising thus far. Horford is benefiting from Kyrie's playmaking ability, and vice versa. There's not a player in the league (other than LeBron) that I've disliked more than Kyrie for the past 5 years. I'm sure if that was your experience, you would also have a tough time warming up to him.
It is weird, because you thought Isaiah, Crowder, ETC. would defeat the "evil empire of the East" in the future once they added more talent, and Kyrie also annoyed me A TON in the past 3-4 years (b/c of his talent obviously), but now we have Kyrie and the "good guys" (IT/Crowder) are with Lebron in Cleveland lol.
Was strange at first (when trade was made). Just so rare it happens between two top teams within a conference.
Very strange. I can't think of a single precedent for the trade, honestly.
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He's not a slam dunk superstar like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, and Curry, but RJ87 has convinced me that Kyrie - with all of his accolades - is probably in that next tier. If you think a superstar is only 3-4 players, then no, he isn't; but, if you expand it to top 10ish (All-star starters), then he seems ready to cement himself at that level for a long time.
So there are 30 superstars in the league, in your opinion? If you made a list of all the other players in the league that would've achieved similar accolades playing alongside LeBron, it'd get lengthy pretty quickly.
I literally stated "All-Star starters" as a reasonable criteria for being a superstar. So, no, in my opinion, there are not 30 superstars.
Just enjoy the Kyrie show and hope he shows incremental improvements as he begins to enter his prime. We all know you didn't like the trade, but there is no reason you can't enjoy the ride. It's a pretty good one so far.
Fair enough, I missed "starters." I enjoy watching the Celtics. Jaylen and Tatum have been surprising thus far. Horford is benefiting from Kyrie's playmaking ability, and vice versa. There's not a player in the league (other than LeBron) that I've disliked more than Kyrie for the past 5 years. I'm sure if that was your experience, you would also have a tough time warming up to him.
It is weird, because you thought Isaiah, Crowder, ETC. would defeat the "evil empire of the East" in the future once they added more talent, and Kyrie also annoyed me A TON in the past 3-4 years (b/c of his talent obviously), but now we have Kyrie and the "good guys" (IT/Crowder) are with Lebron in Cleveland lol.
Was strange at first (when trade was made). Just so rare it happens between two top teams within a conference.
Very strange. I can't think of a single precedent for the trade, honestly.
Like can you imagine if Warriors and Spurs made a trade with each other involving star players.
That's how unexpected (and strange) this whole trade was.
It's funny b/c all summer we heard Porzingis, George, Butler, etc. as trade rumors and were hoping a trade was made.
Then Irving's on the block and we're like "nah we have Isaiah, so not worth trading for Kyrie" and then out of the blue we get Kyrie of all the trade targets/rumored targets :laugh: :P
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This is the sort of bar room debate that can take up three hours and provide no conclusion. Mainly because we all apply our own criteria. Some are stats based or achievement based while others look more at how loved they are by their fans. And even in the domain of 'superstars' there seems to be tiers. LBJ, Jordan, Bird and Johnson are members of a tier of players in the top 5 of all time debate. Personally I am happy, for now, for Jordan to be considered number 1 (another debate). Players at this level all have high scores in every criteria you can apply.
To Kyrie. In the criteria of media attention and impact on his franchise, he is a superstar imo. Though here in Australia so is Ben Simmons based on this criteria. Stats wise I go along with others who point out that many players produce similar numbers, elite as they are. This is the first season I have watched KI so closely. I see another superstar criteria he is outstanding in. He sees the court in a way very few players do. He has a ball handle that is crazy good and he can use these skills to change the course of a game. His BBIQ is way above average. These things alone don't make him a superstar for me yet, if they convert into leading this team to titles then I think he is.
He has a title and many other accolades, tier 2 or 3 superstar for me right now.
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The Jury is still out.
I don't see KI as a current superstar. ESPN just had him as the 25th best player in the league. BR had him as the 8th best PG in the league last year. Sporting News has him 7th. Most other publications has him as between 5th and 7th PG in the league and that's without Harden on the list (who still is a better PG than Irving). You'll have a very difficult time arguing that a guy who is averaging 22 points, fewer than 6 assists per game and plays questionable defense is somehow better than those rankings. If you can't even finish in the top 5 in your position, you are not a superstar in my book
But Irving is the only guy on that list who hasn't hit his prime yet. Wall, Walker and Lillard are 27. Harden is 28. Curry and Westbrook are 29. Conley is 30. Lowry is 31. Paul is 32. IT is hurt. So if Irving can continue to develop his game, he'll eventually pass most or all of those guys because no one beats Father Time.
From a media standpoint Irving is a superstar. He's been on winning teams, made big shots, they love to get his (uninformed) opinions about things, etc. But the media stuff doesn't mean anything to me. A superstar is what you do on the court. A superstar is a guy who can carry a team. Irving isn't there yet but that doesn't mean he won't ever be one.
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The Jury is still out.
I don't see KI as a current superstar. ESPN just had him as the 25th best player in the league. BR had him as the 8th best PG in the league last year. Sporting News has him 7th. Most other publications has him as between 5th and 7th PG in the league and that's without Harden on the list (who still is a better PG than Irving). You'll have a very difficult time arguing that a guy who is averaging 22 points, fewer than 6 assists per game and plays questionable defense is somehow better than those rankings. If you can't even finish in the top 5 in your position, you are not a superstar in my book
But Irving is the only guy on that list who hasn't hit his prime yet. Wall, Walker and Lillard are 27. Harden is 28. Curry and Westbrook are 29. Conley is 30. Lowry is 31. Paul is 32. IT is hurt. So if Irving can continue to develop his game, he'll eventually pass most or all of those guys because no one beats Father Time.
From a media standpoint Irving is a superstar. He's been on winning teams, made big shots, they love to get his (uninformed) opinions about things, etc. But the media stuff doesn't mean anything to me. A superstar is what you do on the court. A superstar is a guy who can carry a team. Irving isn't there yet but that doesn't mean he won't ever be one.
I like to read your posts Granath, but you lost some cred there. That list is no more than a dead season tool to create unexisting contraversy, and not to draw conclusions from it.
You said that a SS is a guy who is carring a team.
In our 1st 9 games I saw a guy who takes over late in games, when the oppoents are best prepared and know he will attack agressively. I dont think he must do it for 48 mins to be a SS. He just has to show up when we need him the most.
I think this is the year where most fans stop that convo. Since it is going to get even more conviencing, with him closing a game after a game.
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For whatever reason he is woefully underrated now.
He is intentionally playing within the system and making the right plays so far this season. This makes the team better, but his stats are not inflated.
He is still a guy who is averaging 22 and 6 a game, leading the league in steals, with a 96 defensive rating and a 6.7 box score plus/minus (10th in the NBA) ... on the best team in the NBA.
On the list of unstoppable offensive players, Irving is top 5.
On the list of oh-crap-he-just-made-two-in-a-row players, Irving is top 3.
The league is terrified that Irving is figuring out how to read defenses to get the best shots for his team, because that means he is going to use all of his dribbling tricks to manipulate those defenses to get great shots for his team.
Opposing offensive players are never safe when they have the ball around Irving, as the league leader in steals and top 10 in deflections.
If Irving isn't a superstar, then no one is.
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The media will anoint him a superstar when he leads us to our next championship. Until then he will be classified a very good all star.
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Clearly at the top of the best.
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The Jury is still out.
I don't see KI as a current superstar. ESPN just had him as the 25th best player in the league. BR had him as the 8th best PG in the league last year. Sporting News has him 7th. Most other publications has him as between 5th and 7th PG in the league and that's without Harden on the list (who still is a better PG than Irving). You'll have a very difficult time arguing that a guy who is averaging 22 points, fewer than 6 assists per game and plays questionable defense is somehow better than those rankings. If you can't even finish in the top 5 in your position, you are not a superstar in my book
But Irving is the only guy on that list who hasn't hit his prime yet. Wall, Walker and Lillard are 27. Harden is 28. Curry and Westbrook are 29. Conley is 30. Lowry is 31. Paul is 32. IT is hurt. So if Irving can continue to develop his game, he'll eventually pass most or all of those guys because no one beats Father Time.
From a media standpoint Irving is a superstar. He's been on winning teams, made big shots, they love to get his (uninformed) opinions about things, etc. But the media stuff doesn't mean anything to me. A superstar is what you do on the court. A superstar is a guy who can carry a team. Irving isn't there yet but that doesn't mean he won't ever be one.
I like to read your posts Granath, but you lost some cred there. That list is no more than a dead season tool to create unexisting contraversy, and not to draw conclusions from it.
You said that a SS is a guy who is carring a team.
In our 1st 9 games I saw a guy who takes over late in games, when the oppoents are best prepared and know he will attack agressively. I dont think he must do it for 48 mins to be a SS. He just has to show up when we need him the most.
I think this is the year where most fans stop that convo. Since it is going to get even more conviencing, with him closing a game after a game.
I didn't mention one list. I mentioned three and I could have mentioned ten. They all say pretty much the same thing, which is KI isn't a top 3 PG in this league and is often rated the 5th-8th PG in the NBA. Is a superstar the 5th or 6th best guy at his position? I don't think so. If someone believes that there are 20 or 25 superstars in the NBA then KI is going to be among that bunch. If someone (like me) believes that there are only 5-10 superstars in this league then KI has a long way to go to get in that group.
As for 4th quarter heroics, IT did the same thing far better than KI last year. Kyrie is 14th in 4th quarter scoring, shooting a meh 44% from the field and 31% from 3. 14th is nice but that's not anywhere near IT last year (and no, he's not making any more assists than IT did last year either). He's taken over the same role that IT had last year and not doing it as well...and somehow this makes him a superstar?
Now maybe as he gets more comfortable he'll blossom. If he continues to show something on defense then he'll get more consideration. If he increases his assists (5.7 doesn't cut it) and maintains his scoring he'll get more consideration. If he scores more than he'll get more consideration. But not right now. Because if Kemba Walker is a better scorer, shooter, distributor and defender - and 9 games in that's all true - and I don't consider him to be a superstar, where does that leave Irving?
If Irving played for 29 other teams we would not be having this discussion.
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For me the superstar criteria includes,
Multiple all star teams as a starter, not just one or two selections.
Multiple MVP finalist considerations.
Multiple all NBA selections, including defensive.
To a lesser degree, lead your team to the conference finals multiple times and ROY selection finalist.
I want to see a sustained body of work over several years. I think Kyrie has already earned the superstar label and this year if we make it to the ECF he will convert many of his critics. Not many players can come to a new team and led them deep into the playoffs even with significant injuries to key players. He may well do that this year.
The problem for Kyrie is how many great PG's are in the league now. He is being measured against Curry, Westbrook, Wall, Harden, Paul and Lillard. Pretty impressive list but if he outperforms them, then he earns even more respect IMHO.
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For whatever reason he is woefully underrated now.
He is intentionally playing within the system and making the right plays so far this season. This makes the team better, but his stats are not inflated.
He is still a guy who is averaging 22 and 6 a game, leading the league in steals, with a 96 defensive rating and a 6.7 box score plus/minus (10th in the NBA) ... on the best team in the NBA.
On the list of unstoppable offensive players, Irving is top 5.
On the list of oh-crap-he-just-made-two-in-a-row players, Irving is top 3.
The league is terrified that Irving is figuring out how to read defenses to get the best shots for his team, because that means he is going to use all of his dribbling tricks to manipulate those defenses to get great shots for his team.
Opposing offensive players are never safe when they have the ball around Irving, as the league leader in steals and top 10 in deflections.
If Irving isn't a superstar, then no one is.
Well said, couldn't agree more.
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I don't care about this Superstar label. I want them to make it like the WWE where everyone is called a Superstar by default so we don't have to hear about it.
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Kyrie is a player. Not a owner, not a GM, not a coach, but a player.
I'm pretty sure of that anyway.
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Empty calories
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conspiracy theorist
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conspiracy theorist
But is he a superstar conspiracy theorist, or just an all-star level one? ???
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The Jury is still out.
I don't see KI as a current superstar. ESPN just had him as the 25th best player in the league. BR had him as the 8th best PG in the league last year. Sporting News has him 7th. Most other publications has him as between 5th and 7th PG in the league and that's without Harden on the list (who still is a better PG than Irving). You'll have a very difficult time arguing that a guy who is averaging 22 points, fewer than 6 assists per game and plays questionable defense is somehow better than those rankings. If you can't even finish in the top 5 in your position, you are not a superstar in my book
But Irving is the only guy on that list who hasn't hit his prime yet. Wall, Walker and Lillard are 27. Harden is 28. Curry and Westbrook are 29. Conley is 30. Lowry is 31. Paul is 32. IT is hurt. So if Irving can continue to develop his game, he'll eventually pass most or all of those guys because no one beats Father Time.
From a media standpoint Irving is a superstar. He's been on winning teams, made big shots, they love to get his (uninformed) opinions about things, etc. But the media stuff doesn't mean anything to me. A superstar is what you do on the court. A superstar is a guy who can carry a team. Irving isn't there yet but that doesn't mean he won't ever be one.
Yep, TP. Very well said.
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I don't care about this Superstar label. I want them to make it like the WWE where everyone is called a Superstar by default so we don't have to hear about it.
I prefer old school.
<In this corner, 2 time world champion, 3 time intercontinental champion, ....> [Enter heal or face to a chorus of boos or cheers]
<In this corner, ... Bob Jones> [Shows nondescript fellow (aka Redshirt, aka Lamb to the Slaughter) to a couple half hearted claps]
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I find that the basic 3 basketball elements are: shooting, dribling and passing.
Kyrie is one of the best shooters ever of the dribble/in PNR. Maybe the single most valuable skill in the league. It changed the league. It made people guard Curry 30 feet from the basket like he is under the rim and a 2 time MVP. That is skill only a couple of guys along with Curry (the best ever/in the group), Kyrie, Lillard, Harden (see 3pt fouls too) and can repeat constantly. IT was in that group just once, last year - he ended up 5th in MVP voting. Kyrie can hit those above the break all day. It includes going 8/8 in a game and that G7 shot.
Shooting verdict: Historicaly great
Kyrie is IMO the best dribbler of all time. Too many moves for others to process, too fast, the handle is super tight. Some defenders are affraid and some just fold to the side after a couple of bounces.
Handle verdict: Historicaly great
The 3rd element is passing. He is not the very best here, not in the Rubio, LBJ, Rondo, Simmons, Teodosić tier (those guys can really invent passes as the play is unfolding), but still a very good passer, in the top 10%. He is a creative and willing passer, and as it is with all of his aspects at the offensive end, he gives a little extra flair on those.
Passing verdict: Excellent
Who can match Kyries level in these fundamental skills and was not/is not a Superstar?
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Why does this matter?
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I find that the basic 3 basketball elements are: shooting, dribling and passing.
Kyrie is one of the best shooters ever of the dribble/in PNR. Maybe the single most valuable skill in the league. It changed the league. It made people guard Curry 30 feet from the basket like he is under the rim and a 2 time MVP. That is skill only a couple of guys along with Curry (the best ever/in the group), Kyrie, Lillard, Harden (see 3pt fouls too) and can repeat constantly. IT was in that group just once, last year - he ended up 5th in MVP voting. Kyrie can hit those above the break all day. It includes going 8/8 in a game and that G7 shot.
Shooting verdict: Historicaly great
Kyrie is IMO the best dribbler of all time. Too many moves for others to process, too fast, the handle is super tight. Some defenders are affraid and some just fold to the side after a couple of bounces.
Handle verdict: Historicaly great
The 3rd element is passing. He is not the very best here, not in the Rubio, LBJ, Rondo, Simmons, Teodosić tier (those guys can really invent passes as the play is unfolding), but still a very good passer, in the top 10%. He is a creative and willing passer, and as it is with all of his aspects at the offensive end, he gives a little extra flair on those.
Passing verdict: Excellent
Who can match Kyries level in these fundamental skills and was not/is not a Superstar?
There are a few problems with this post.
1. You know there's another side of the court, don't you?
2. Grayson Boucher is historically great at passing, dribbling and good at shooting shooting. He's not even in the NBA. Again, your criteria is a wee bit lacking.
3. Last year there were 17 point guards who averaged more assists. That's not top 10%.
4. Consistent production matters. No matter what someone shows in isolation or in limited moments, a true superstar brings it every period of every game. Kyrie hasn't done that yet.
Give him time before anointing him as the savior. He hasn't even made the journey to Cana yet, never mind turning the water into wine.
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I find that the basic 3 basketball elements are: shooting, dribling and passing.
Kyrie is one of the best shooters ever of the dribble/in PNR. Maybe the single most valuable skill in the league. It changed the league. It made people guard Curry 30 feet from the basket like he is under the rim and a 2 time MVP. That is skill only a couple of guys along with Curry (the best ever/in the group), Kyrie, Lillard, Harden (see 3pt fouls too) and can repeat constantly. IT was in that group just once, last year - he ended up 5th in MVP voting. Kyrie can hit those above the break all day. It includes going 8/8 in a game and that G7 shot.
Shooting verdict: Historicaly great
Kyrie is IMO the best dribbler of all time. Too many moves for others to process, too fast, the handle is super tight. Some defenders are affraid and some just fold to the side after a couple of bounces.
Handle verdict: Historicaly great
The 3rd element is passing. He is not the very best here, not in the Rubio, LBJ, Rondo, Simmons, Teodosić tier (those guys can really invent passes as the play is unfolding), but still a very good passer, in the top 10%. He is a creative and willing passer, and as it is with all of his aspects at the offensive end, he gives a little extra flair on those.
Passing verdict: Excellent
Who can match Kyries level in these fundamental skills and was not/is not a Superstar?
There are a few problems with this post.
1. You know there's another side of the court, don't you?
2. Grayson Boucher is historically great at passing, dribbling and good at shooting shooting. He's not even in the NBA. Again, your criteria is a wee bit lacking.
3. Last year there were 17 point guards who averaged more assists. That's not top 10%.
4. Consistent production matters. No matter what someone shows in isolation or in limited moments, a true superstar brings it every period of every game. Kyrie hasn't done that yet.
Give him time before anointing him as the savior. He hasn't even made the journey to Cana yet, never mind turning the water into wine.
Yeah, if a player needed only three skills, and his ranks were “best ever”, “one of the best ever” and “top 10%”, he’d be in Jordan territory.
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Irving is A- level player as is Hayward. That is probably a "superstar" but it is not a transcendent player.
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Irving is A- level player as is Hayward. That is probably a "superstar" but it is not a transcendent player.
Well said, big Mo. Most objective stance on Kyrie that I've ever seen on this board.
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Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
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Irving is A- level player as is Hayward. That is probably a "superstar" but it is not a transcendent player.
Well said, big Mo. Most objective stance on Kyrie that I've ever seen on this board.
awhile ago I made this thread so I'm consistent where Irving is concerned.
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=89806.msg2264984#msg2264984
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Irving is A- level player as is Hayward. That is probably a "superstar" but it is not a transcendent player.
Well said, big Mo. Most objective stance on Kyrie that I've ever seen on this board.
awhile ago I made this thread so I'm consistent where Irving is concerned.
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=89806.msg2264984#msg2264984
The "superstar" versus franchise player distinction is an important one, especially if the former is going to be used relatively loosely. The players you listed do seem to be right on the cusp too, despite how truly great they are.
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Legit All-Star but if he continues his development he could very well be sniffing top 10-12 by next year this time - at the young age of 26.
This is HIS team now - no question. With GH out it will be up to him to lead and continue to get better. He's done this so far and I've been truly impressed by him - especially on the defensive end.
It will be great to revisit this thread by end of the season.
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For me there are a select few superstars in this league.
I believe Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry and Kawhi Leonard are superstars. I think Harden is also a superstar but hes more on the fringe. I think Giannis, Davis and Towns are all guys sitting right outside that group.
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I find that the basic 3 basketball elements are: shooting, dribling and passing.
Kyrie is one of the best shooters ever of the dribble/in PNR. Maybe the single most valuable skill in the league. It changed the league. It made people guard Curry 30 feet away from the basket like he is under the rim and a 2 time MVP. That is a skill only a couple of guys along with Curry (the best ever/in the group), Kyrie, Lillard, Harden (see 3pt fouls too) and can repeat constantly. IT was in that group just once, last year - he ended up 5th in MVP voting. Kyrie can hit those above the break all day. It includes going 8/8 in a game and that G7 shot.
Shooting verdict: Historically great
Kyrie is IMO the best dribbler of all time. Too many moves for others to process, too fast, the handle is super tight. Some defenders are afraid and some just fold to the side after a couple of bounces.
Handle verdict: Historically great
The 3rd element is passing. He is not the very best here, not in the Rubio, LBJ, Rondo, Simmons, Teodosić tier (those guys can really invent passes as the play is unfolding), but still a very good passer, in the top 10%. He is a creative and willing passer, and as it is with all of his aspects at the offensive end, he gives a little extra flair on those.
Passing verdict: Excellent
Who can match Kyries level in these fundamental skills and was not/is not a Superstar?
There are a few problems with this post.
1. You know there's another side of the court, don't you?
2. Grayson Boucher is historically great at passing, dribbling and good at shooting. He's not even in the NBA. Again, your criteria is a wee bit lacking.
3. Last year there were 17 point guards who averaged more assists. That's not top 10%.
4. Consistent production matters. No matter what someone shows in isolation or in limited moments, a true superstar brings it every period of every game. Kyrie hasn't done that yet.
Give him time before anointing him as the savior. He hasn't even made the journey to Cana yet, never mind turning the water into wine.
Yeah, if a player needed only three skills, and his ranks were “best ever”, “one of the best ever” and “top 10%”, he’d be in Jordan territory.
1. Yea we all know about Kyries defense. The improvement under our system is evident, finally, he is on a team with a defensive culture and is showing signs of steep improvement. I just think that the defensive stance is a less basic basketball skill than shooting or dribbling. I am not diminishing that part of the floor, just that defense always was for physical, generally less skilled players, and requires less training hours than the described 3 skills.
Even if he stays at that "Cleveland" level - Harden? Iverson? Gervin? Barkley? Dominique? just to name a few, these guys weren't superstars?
2. Grayson Boucher - I truly don't know who that is, I googled him and saw he is a basketball "dancer", juggler, entertainer. Let's leave out J.Lo's and Michael Jacksons of the world out of NBA superstar talk. Kyrie is not some mixtape wannabe, he achieved more than Michael Jordan did at his age.
3. Logically flawed. Assists don't necessarily reflect someones ability to pass. It is closer to reflecting players tendencies and usage. Example: Boris Diaw, old Sabonis, Horford, any Gasol family member, Ginobili and even our Smart all are 5 times the passers D.Rose ever was, but none of them ever came to his 7.7 and 7.9 APG. Logically speaking, passing is in a category that is above the assisting. Meaning that you can't make an assist without making a pass, but you can make a pass without achieving an assist.
4. Lebron doesn't even defend until April. This year KD isn't engaged in 1st quarters (the ones I saw), Curry, Harden, Kobe, Shaq... all have/had theirs on/off moments. When someone uses the double standard to make a point, it simply doesn't work.
In my book, this is how Kyrie as a SS plays in the finals:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2016-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html
Against the best defensive team in the league.
Also, just the way he was disassembling our team into basic components in the last years ECF. That's was with an All NBA defender on him.
Guys, you know that the time is on the side of my arguments. And, if I am proven to be correct even further, you will be happier, so better not to use that energy on counter arguing. :)
BTW, Brad won 8 games in a row for the 1st time in his NBA career. Cheers!
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I find that the basic 3 basketball elements are: shooting, dribling and passing.
Kyrie is one of the best shooters ever of the dribble/in PNR. Maybe the single most valuable skill in the league. It changed the league. It made people guard Curry 30 feet away from the basket like he is under the rim and a 2 time MVP. That is a skill only a couple of guys along with Curry (the best ever/in the group), Kyrie, Lillard, Harden (see 3pt fouls too) and can repeat constantly. IT was in that group just once, last year - he ended up 5th in MVP voting. Kyrie can hit those above the break all day. It includes going 8/8 in a game and that G7 shot.
Shooting verdict: Historically great
Kyrie is IMO the best dribbler of all time. Too many moves for others to process, too fast, the handle is super tight. Some defenders are afraid and some just fold to the side after a couple of bounces.
Handle verdict: Historically great
The 3rd element is passing. He is not the very best here, not in the Rubio, LBJ, Rondo, Simmons, Teodosić tier (those guys can really invent passes as the play is unfolding), but still a very good passer, in the top 10%. He is a creative and willing passer, and as it is with all of his aspects at the offensive end, he gives a little extra flair on those.
Passing verdict: Excellent
Who can match Kyries level in these fundamental skills and was not/is not a Superstar?
There are a few problems with this post.
1. You know there's another side of the court, don't you?
2. Grayson Boucher is historically great at passing, dribbling and good at shooting. He's not even in the NBA. Again, your criteria is a wee bit lacking.
3. Last year there were 17 point guards who averaged more assists. That's not top 10%.
4. Consistent production matters. No matter what someone shows in isolation or in limited moments, a true superstar brings it every period of every game. Kyrie hasn't done that yet.
Give him time before anointing him as the savior. He hasn't even made the journey to Cana yet, never mind turning the water into wine.
Yeah, if a player needed only three skills, and his ranks were “best ever”, “one of the best ever” and “top 10%”, he’d be in Jordan territory.
1. Yea we all know about Kyries defense. The improvement under our system is evident, finally, he is on a team with a defensive culture and is showing signs of steep improvement. I just think that the defensive stance is a less basic basketball skill than shooting or dribbling. I am not diminishing that part of the floor, just that defense always was for physical, generally less skilled players, and requires less training hours than the described 3 skills.
Even if he stays at that "Cleveland" level - Harden? Iverson? Gervin? Barkley? Dominique? just to name a few, these guys weren't superstars?
2. Grayson Boucher - I truly don't know who that is, I googled him and saw he is a basketball "dancer", juggler, entertainer. Let's leave out J.Lo's and Michael Jacksons of the world out of NBA superstar talk. Kyrie is not some mixtape wannabe, he achieved more than Michael Jordan did at his age.
3. Logically flawed. Assists don't necessarily reflect someones ability to pass. It is closer to reflecting players tendencies and usage. Example: Boris Diaw, old Sabonis, Horford, any Gasol family member, Ginobili and even our Smart all are 5 times the passers D.Rose ever was, but none of them ever came to his 7.7 and 7.9 APG. Logically speaking, passing is in a category that is above the assisting. Meaning that you can't make an assist without making a pass, but you can make a pass without achieving an assist.
4. Lebron doesn't even defend until April. This year KD isn't engaged in 1st quarters (the ones I saw), Curry, Harden, Kobe, Shaq... all have/had theirs on/off moments. When someone uses the double standard to make a point, it simply doesn't work.
In my book, this is how Kyrie as a SS plays in the finals:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2016-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html
Also, just the way he was disassembling our team into basic components in the last years ECF. That's was with an All NBA defender on him.
Guys, you know that the time is on the side of my arguments. And, if I am proven to be correct even further, you will be happier, so better not waste energy on counter arguing. :)
BTW, Brad won 8 games in a row for the 1st time in his NBA career. Cheers!
Well said. It's fair to argue that there is a decent list of more well-rounded players than Kyrie. However, Kyrie's combo of elite ball handling and scoring is such a rarity. As you mentioned, he is historically great in these areas. His ability to score on the biggest stage is the missing piece for most teams in the league.
Others have mentioned that our personal criteria makes this an impossible debate, which is true. My major argument against LeBron, Kawhi, Durant, and Steph being the only "Superstars" is the fact that LeBron is the only one who has a proven ability to carry a team regardless of coaching and/or talent around him. Kawhi is one of my favorite players in the league (top 3 IMO) but he has benefited greatly from playing under Popovich. Durant has always had an elite player or two around him. Would he have ever carried LeBron's early Cavs teams to 55+ wins? Curry is amazing but he had Klay with him from the start. The combinations of Kerr's arrival and Draymond's ascension helped put that team over the top. The Mark Jackson Warriors played too much ISO ball and routinely ranked near the bottom of the league in passes per game.
I guess I don't understand what puts Leonard, Durant, and Steph in the such an exclusive "Superstar" category. They are still in my top 5 but LeBron stands on his own under strict criteria.
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However, Kyrie's combo of elite ball handling and scoring is such a rarity. As you mentioned, he is historically great in these areas.
He’s a historically great ball handler. What’s your argument for being “historically great” at scoring?
He’s only finished in the top-10 in scoring once, when he was 9th in 2016. That’s far from historically great.
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I find that the basic 3 basketball elements are: shooting, dribling and passing.
Kyrie is one of the best shooters ever of the dribble/in PNR. Maybe the single most valuable skill in the league. It changed the league. It made people guard Curry 30 feet away from the basket like he is under the rim and a 2 time MVP. That is a skill only a couple of guys along with Curry (the best ever/in the group), Kyrie, Lillard, Harden (see 3pt fouls too) and can repeat constantly. IT was in that group just once, last year - he ended up 5th in MVP voting. Kyrie can hit those above the break all day. It includes going 8/8 in a game and that G7 shot.
Shooting verdict: Historically great
Kyrie is IMO the best dribbler of all time. Too many moves for others to process, too fast, the handle is super tight. Some defenders are afraid and some just fold to the side after a couple of bounces.
Handle verdict: Historically great
The 3rd element is passing. He is not the very best here, not in the Rubio, LBJ, Rondo, Simmons, Teodosić tier (those guys can really invent passes as the play is unfolding), but still a very good passer, in the top 10%. He is a creative and willing passer, and as it is with all of his aspects at the offensive end, he gives a little extra flair on those.
Passing verdict: Excellent
Who can match Kyries level in these fundamental skills and was not/is not a Superstar?
There are a few problems with this post.
1. You know there's another side of the court, don't you?
2. Grayson Boucher is historically great at passing, dribbling and good at shooting. He's not even in the NBA. Again, your criteria is a wee bit lacking.
3. Last year there were 17 point guards who averaged more assists. That's not top 10%.
4. Consistent production matters. No matter what someone shows in isolation or in limited moments, a true superstar brings it every period of every game. Kyrie hasn't done that yet.
Give him time before anointing him as the savior. He hasn't even made the journey to Cana yet, never mind turning the water into wine.
Yeah, if a player needed only three skills, and his ranks were “best ever”, “one of the best ever” and “top 10%”, he’d be in Jordan territory.
1. Yea we all know about Kyries defense. The improvement under our system is evident, finally, he is on a team with a defensive culture and is showing signs of steep improvement. I just think that the defensive stance is a less basic basketball skill than shooting or dribbling. I am not diminishing that part of the floor, just that defense always was for physical, generally less skilled players, and requires less training hours than the described 3 skills.
Even if he stays at that "Cleveland" level - Harden? Iverson? Gervin? Barkley? Dominique? just to name a few, these guys weren't superstars?
2. Grayson Boucher - I truly don't know who that is, I googled him and saw he is a basketball "dancer", juggler, entertainer. Let's leave out J.Lo's and Michael Jacksons of the world out of NBA superstar talk. Kyrie is not some mixtape wannabe, he achieved more than Michael Jordan did at his age.
3. Logically flawed. Assists don't necessarily reflect someones ability to pass. It is closer to reflecting players tendencies and usage. Example: Boris Diaw, old Sabonis, Horford, any Gasol family member, Ginobili and even our Smart all are 5 times the passers D.Rose ever was, but none of them ever came to his 7.7 and 7.9 APG. Logically speaking, passing is in a category that is above the assisting. Meaning that you can't make an assist without making a pass, but you can make a pass without achieving an assist.
4. Lebron doesn't even defend until April. This year KD isn't engaged in 1st quarters (the ones I saw), Curry, Harden, Kobe, Shaq... all have/had theirs on/off moments. When someone uses the double standard to make a point, it simply doesn't work.
In my book, this is how Kyrie as a SS plays in the finals:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2016-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html
Also, just the way he was disassembling our team into basic components in the last years ECF. That's was with an All NBA defender on him.
Guys, you know that the time is on the side of my arguments. And, if I am proven to be correct even further, you will be happier, so better not waste energy on counter arguing. :)
BTW, Brad won 8 games in a row for the 1st time in his NBA career. Cheers!
Well said. It's fair to argue that there is a decent list of more well-rounded players than Kyrie. However, Kyrie's combo of elite ball handling and scoring is such a rarity. As you mentioned, he is historically great in these areas. His ability to score on the biggest stage is the missing piece for most teams in the league.
Others have mentioned that our personal criteria makes this an impossible debate, which is true. My major argument against LeBron, Kawhi, Durant, and Steph being the only "Superstars" is the fact that LeBron is the only one who has a proven ability to carry a team regardless of coaching and/or talent around him. Kawhi is one of my favorite players in the league (top 3 IMO) but he has benefited greatly from playing under Popovich. Durant has always had an elite player or two around him. Would he have ever carried LeBron's early Cavs teams to 55+ wins? Curry is amazing but he had Klay with him from the start. The combinations of Kerr's arrival and Draymond's ascension helped put that team over the top. The Mark Jackson Warriors played too much ISO ball and routinely ranked near the bottom of the league in passes per game.
I guess I don't understand what puts Leonard, Durant, and Steph in the such an exclusive "Superstar" category. They are still in my top 5 but LeBron stands on his own under strict criteria.
Lebron is a generational talent. You get one or maybe two of those players in a generation. Hence the name. He is what you would call a special room player in the midst of players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc. Since Jordan there have been 3 of those players: James, Shaq, and Duncan.
That however doesn't mean there aren't other franchise players. You know the guys that are always competing for the MVP (top 5 finishes). If they aren't an All Star or an All NBA player it is likely because they were injured. Their teams are almost always playoff teams no matter who else is with them and their teams are generally contenders and they are the best player on that team. Durant is clearly a franchise player. Leonard is a franchise player. Curry is a franchise player (2 time MVP, best player on a title team, it is hard to argue against him). Westbrook and Harden probably are, though a deep playoff run would help their cases. Davis might be (but he really needs to start putting together playoff teams and playoff success). Giannis is trending that way, but it is still a bit early for him. But that is it right now (Dirk was probably in this category in his prime).
Superstars are a whole other category. Those are players that "should" be an all star every year and "should" be an All NBA player every year (or at least in that mix). You give them the right talent around them and they could be the best player on a title team. That is where a guy like Irving falls. Wall, Paul, Griffin, George, Butler, Anthony, Pau (in his prime), etc. Hayward was likely headed to this category before the injury.
There is also a tier right below superstar, which would be the group of players that are consistent all star level players, guys like Horford, Jordan, Conley, Gasol, Love, Aldridge, Lowry, DeRozan, etc. A guy capable of having an All NBA season or All Star season, but it shouldn't be expected every single season.
Some players are fringe players in the tier up and a good season or two could elevate them.
And then there are players like Klay Thompson and Draymond Green that are just so hard to classify because they have never had to be the alpha, so you really don't know if they are all star or superstar players. Heck they might even be a franchise player if given the opportunity to prove it (which Irving can do now in Boston).
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However, Kyrie's combo of elite ball handling and scoring is such a rarity. As you mentioned, he is historically great in these areas.
He’s a historically great ball handler. What’s your argument for being “historically great” at scoring?
He’s only finished in the top-10 in scoring once, when he was 9th in 2016. That’s far from historically great.
I was agreeing with the poster above. The premise of his argument was based upon skills and ability. I don't think it's far fetched to project that Kyrie will go down as one of the best scoring point guards by the time his career is over. I'm not comparing him directly to MJ, Wilt, Durant, Kobe etc.
Kyrie's body of work is also incomplete due to him being only 25 years old. His Finals performances over the past few seasons have been amazing. Kyrie is one of the best closers in the entire league. His ability to take over a game on the biggest stage is a rare ability.
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I find that the basic 3 basketball elements are: shooting, dribling and passing.
Kyrie is one of the best shooters ever of the dribble/in PNR. Maybe the single most valuable skill in the league. It changed the league. It made people guard Curry 30 feet away from the basket like he is under the rim and a 2 time MVP. That is a skill only a couple of guys along with Curry (the best ever/in the group), Kyrie, Lillard, Harden (see 3pt fouls too) and can repeat constantly. IT was in that group just once, last year - he ended up 5th in MVP voting. Kyrie can hit those above the break all day. It includes going 8/8 in a game and that G7 shot.
Shooting verdict: Historically great
Kyrie is IMO the best dribbler of all time. Too many moves for others to process, too fast, the handle is super tight. Some defenders are afraid and some just fold to the side after a couple of bounces.
Handle verdict: Historically great
The 3rd element is passing. He is not the very best here, not in the Rubio, LBJ, Rondo, Simmons, Teodosić tier (those guys can really invent passes as the play is unfolding), but still a very good passer, in the top 10%. He is a creative and willing passer, and as it is with all of his aspects at the offensive end, he gives a little extra flair on those.
Passing verdict: Excellent
Who can match Kyries level in these fundamental skills and was not/is not a Superstar?
There are a few problems with this post.
1. You know there's another side of the court, don't you?
2. Grayson Boucher is historically great at passing, dribbling and good at shooting. He's not even in the NBA. Again, your criteria is a wee bit lacking.
3. Last year there were 17 point guards who averaged more assists. That's not top 10%.
4. Consistent production matters. No matter what someone shows in isolation or in limited moments, a true superstar brings it every period of every game. Kyrie hasn't done that yet.
Give him time before anointing him as the savior. He hasn't even made the journey to Cana yet, never mind turning the water into wine.
Yeah, if a player needed only three skills, and his ranks were “best ever”, “one of the best ever” and “top 10%”, he’d be in Jordan territory.
1. Yea we all know about Kyries defense. The improvement under our system is evident, finally, he is on a team with a defensive culture and is showing signs of steep improvement. I just think that the defensive stance is a less basic basketball skill than shooting or dribbling. I am not diminishing that part of the floor, just that defense always was for physical, generally less skilled players, and requires less training hours than the described 3 skills.
Even if he stays at that "Cleveland" level - Harden? Iverson? Gervin? Barkley? Dominique? just to name a few, these guys weren't superstars?
2. Grayson Boucher - I truly don't know who that is, I googled him and saw he is a basketball "dancer", juggler, entertainer. Let's leave out J.Lo's and Michael Jacksons of the world out of NBA superstar talk. Kyrie is not some mixtape wannabe, he achieved more than Michael Jordan did at his age.
3. Logically flawed. Assists don't necessarily reflect someones ability to pass. It is closer to reflecting players tendencies and usage. Example: Boris Diaw, old Sabonis, Horford, any Gasol family member, Ginobili and even our Smart all are 5 times the passers D.Rose ever was, but none of them ever came to his 7.7 and 7.9 APG. Logically speaking, passing is in a category that is above the assisting. Meaning that you can't make an assist without making a pass, but you can make a pass without achieving an assist.
4. Lebron doesn't even defend until April. This year KD isn't engaged in 1st quarters (the ones I saw), Curry, Harden, Kobe, Shaq... all have/had theirs on/off moments. When someone uses the double standard to make a point, it simply doesn't work.
In my book, this is how Kyrie as a SS plays in the finals:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2016-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html
Also, just the way he was disassembling our team into basic components in the last years ECF. That's was with an All NBA defender on him.
Guys, you know that the time is on the side of my arguments. And, if I am proven to be correct even further, you will be happier, so better not waste energy on counter arguing. :)
BTW, Brad won 8 games in a row for the 1st time in his NBA career. Cheers!
Well said. It's fair to argue that there is a decent list of more well-rounded players than Kyrie. However, Kyrie's combo of elite ball handling and scoring is such a rarity. As you mentioned, he is historically great in these areas. His ability to score on the biggest stage is the missing piece for most teams in the league.
Others have mentioned that our personal criteria makes this an impossible debate, which is true. My major argument against LeBron, Kawhi, Durant, and Steph being the only "Superstars" is the fact that LeBron is the only one who has a proven ability to carry a team regardless of coaching and/or talent around him. Kawhi is one of my favorite players in the league (top 3 IMO) but he has benefited greatly from playing under Popovich. Durant has always had an elite player or two around him. Would he have ever carried LeBron's early Cavs teams to 55+ wins? Curry is amazing but he had Klay with him from the start. The combinations of Kerr's arrival and Draymond's ascension helped put that team over the top. The Mark Jackson Warriors played too much ISO ball and routinely ranked near the bottom of the league in passes per game.
I guess I don't understand what puts Leonard, Durant, and Steph in the such an exclusive "Superstar" category. They are still in my top 5 but LeBron stands on his own under strict criteria.
Lebron is a generational talent. You get one or maybe two of those players in a generation. Hence the name. He is what you would call a special room player in the midst of players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc. Since Jordan there have been 3 of those players: James, Shaq, and Duncan.
That however doesn't mean there aren't other franchise players. You know the guys that are always competing for the MVP (top 5 finishes). If they aren't an All Star or an All NBA player it is likely because they were injured. Their teams are almost always playoff teams no matter who else is with them and their teams are generally contenders and they are the best player on that team. Durant is clearly a franchise player. Leonard is a franchise player. Curry is a franchise player (2 time MVP, best player on a title team, it is hard to argue against him). Westbrook and Harden probably are, though a deep playoff run would help their cases. Davis might be (but he really needs to start putting together playoff teams and playoff success). Giannis is trending that way, but it is still a bit early for him. But that is it right now (Dirk was probably in this category in his prime).
Superstars are a whole other category. Those are players that "should" be an all star every year and "should" be an All NBA player every year (or at least in that mix). You give them the right talent around them and they could be the best player on a title team. That is where a guy like Irving falls. Wall, Paul, Griffin, George, Butler, Anthony, Pau (in his prime), etc. Hayward was likely headed to this category before the injury.
There is also a tier right below superstar, which would be the group of players that are consistent all star level players, guys like Horford, Jordan, Conley, Gasol, Love, Aldridge, Lowry, DeRozan, etc. A guy capable of having an All NBA season or All Star season, but it shouldn't be expected every single season.
Some players are fringe players in the tier up and a good season or two could elevate them.
And then there are players like Klay Thompson and Draymond Green that are just so hard to classify because they have never had to be the alpha, so you really don't know if they are all star or superstar players. Heck they might even be a franchise player if given the opportunity to prove it (which Irving can do now in Boston).
Those are all very fair and accurate points. I guess I see the potential for Irving to reach a higher level than Paul, Griffen, George, Butler, Melo, Pau etc. I also think Giannis has a great chance. Westbrook and Harden are franchise players at face value. However, they both have fatal flaws that I don't see in Curry, Leonard, or Durant. Westbrook has yet to prove that he can succeed in an offensive system predicated on sharing the ball. It's amazing what he can accomplish with the ball in his hands but I'm not sure that his skills translate to winning on the highest level. He's not efficient enough as an alpha but he also seems lost when he isn't the focal point. Harden's issue is that he has no heart. Amazing talent but there is no grit and determination.
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However, Kyrie's combo of elite ball handling and scoring is such a rarity. As you mentioned, he is historically great in these areas.
He’s a historically great ball handler. What’s your argument for being “historically great” at scoring?
He’s only finished in the top-10 in scoring once, when he was 9th in 2016. That’s far from historically great.
I was agreeing with the poster above. The premise of his argument was based upon skills and ability. I don't think it's far fetched to project that Kyrie will go down as one of the best scoring point guards by the time his career is over. I'm not comparing him directly to MJ, Wilt, Durant, Kobe etc.
Kyrie's body of work is also incomplete due to him being only 25 years old. His Finals performances over the past few seasons have been amazing. Kyrie is one of the best closers in the entire league. His ability to take over a game on the biggest stage is a rare ability.
So “he is historically great” means he may be someday?
That’s a fair argument, but it’s not what you said, and means something completely different. I hope he reaches that level, too.
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However, Kyrie's combo of elite ball handling and scoring is such a rarity. As you mentioned, he is historically great in these areas.
He’s a historically great ball handler. What’s your argument for being “historically great” at scoring?
He’s only finished in the top-10 in scoring once, when he was 9th in 2016. That’s far from historically great.
I was agreeing with the poster above. The premise of his argument was based upon skills and ability. I don't think it's far fetched to project that Kyrie will go down as one of the best scoring point guards by the time his career is over. I'm not comparing him directly to MJ, Wilt, Durant, Kobe etc.
Kyrie's body of work is also incomplete due to him being only 25 years old. His Finals performances over the past few seasons have been amazing. Kyrie is one of the best closers in the entire league. His ability to take over a game on the biggest stage is a rare ability.
So “he is historically great” means he may be someday?
That’s a fair argument, but it’s not what you said, and means something completely different. I hope he reaches that level, too.
I should have clarified this properly. I am more or less trying to say that his skillset as a scorer is historically great. That's how I interpreted an earlier post and I was echoing the same sentiment. Kyrie isn't the biggest, strongest or most athletic guard but very few are close to his level of skill. Guys like Wall, Lillard, and Westbrook have an athletic advantage. Kyrie is on their level because of his unique ability as a ball handler, shooter, and creative finisher.
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If Kyrie keeps playing defense like this, he is easily a top 3 PG behind Steph and Westbrook.
If his defense falls back to the norm for his historical performance, he is back in that Lillard-Walker-IT realm of top 5-7 PG where they are all on similar levels.
I don't know if the former makes him a superstar, but he would be a really great player to have in either scenario.
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For me there are a select few superstars in this league.
I believe Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry and Kawhi Leonard are superstars. I think Harden is also a superstar but hes more on the fringe. I think Giannis, Davis and Towns are all guys sitting right outside that group.
Really? You have Anthony Davis sitting outside that group?? :o
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I find that the basic 3 basketball elements are: shooting, dribling and passing.
Kyrie is one of the best shooters ever of the dribble/in PNR. Maybe the single most valuable skill in the league. It changed the league. It made people guard Curry 30 feet away from the basket like he is under the rim and a 2 time MVP. That is a skill only a couple of guys along with Curry (the best ever/in the group), Kyrie, Lillard, Harden (see 3pt fouls too) and can repeat constantly. IT was in that group just once, last year - he ended up 5th in MVP voting. Kyrie can hit those above the break all day. It includes going 8/8 in a game and that G7 shot.
Shooting verdict: Historically great
Kyrie is IMO the best dribbler of all time. Too many moves for others to process, too fast, the handle is super tight. Some defenders are afraid and some just fold to the side after a couple of bounces.
Handle verdict: Historically great
The 3rd element is passing. He is not the very best here, not in the Rubio, LBJ, Rondo, Simmons, Teodosić tier (those guys can really invent passes as the play is unfolding), but still a very good passer, in the top 10%. He is a creative and willing passer, and as it is with all of his aspects at the offensive end, he gives a little extra flair on those.
Passing verdict: Excellent
Who can match Kyries level in these fundamental skills and was not/is not a Superstar?
There are a few problems with this post.
1. You know there's another side of the court, don't you?
2. Grayson Boucher is historically great at passing, dribbling and good at shooting. He's not even in the NBA. Again, your criteria is a wee bit lacking.
3. Last year there were 17 point guards who averaged more assists. That's not top 10%.
4. Consistent production matters. No matter what someone shows in isolation or in limited moments, a true superstar brings it every period of every game. Kyrie hasn't done that yet.
Give him time before anointing him as the savior. He hasn't even made the journey to Cana yet, never mind turning the water into wine.
Yeah, if a player needed only three skills, and his ranks were “best ever”, “one of the best ever” and “top 10%”, he’d be in Jordan territory.
1. Yea we all know about Kyries defense. The improvement under our system is evident, finally, he is on a team with a defensive culture and is showing signs of steep improvement. I just think that the defensive stance is a less basic basketball skill than shooting or dribbling. I am not diminishing that part of the floor, just that defense always was for physical, generally less skilled players, and requires less training hours than the described 3 skills.
Even if he stays at that "Cleveland" level - Harden? Iverson? Gervin? Barkley? Dominique? just to name a few, these guys weren't superstars?
2. Grayson Boucher - I truly don't know who that is, I googled him and saw he is a basketball "dancer", juggler, entertainer. Let's leave out J.Lo's and Michael Jacksons of the world out of NBA superstar talk. Kyrie is not some mixtape wannabe, he achieved more than Michael Jordan did at his age.
3. Logically flawed. Assists don't necessarily reflect someones ability to pass. It is closer to reflecting players tendencies and usage. Example: Boris Diaw, old Sabonis, Horford, any Gasol family member, Ginobili and even our Smart all are 5 times the passers D.Rose ever was, but none of them ever came to his 7.7 and 7.9 APG. Logically speaking, passing is in a category that is above the assisting. Meaning that you can't make an assist without making a pass, but you can make a pass without achieving an assist.
4. Lebron doesn't even defend until April. This year KD isn't engaged in 1st quarters (the ones I saw), Curry, Harden, Kobe, Shaq... all have/had theirs on/off moments. When someone uses the double standard to make a point, it simply doesn't work.
In my book, this is how Kyrie as a SS plays in the finals:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2016-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html
Against the best defensive team in the league.
Also, just the way he was disassembling our team into basic components in the last years ECF. That's was with an All NBA defender on him.
Guys, you know that the time is on the side of my arguments. And, if I am proven to be correct even further, you will be happier, so better not to use that energy on counter arguing. :)
BTW, Brad won 8 games in a row for the 1st time in his NBA career. Cheers!
1. Yes, we all know about Kyrie's defense. But we're not about to take an unsustainable steal rate that is double his lifetime average 10 games into a season as proof that he's somehow solved his defensive issues. The Jury is still out.
2. You set forth the criteria. I'm just providing an answer to which you missed the point. If I can provide a non-NBA player that meets that criteria, it's not the player that's the issue. It's that your criteria is woefully lacking (not to mention that you're massively overestimating Kyrie's historical abilities in each).
3. Assists matter to a PG. That's one of the primary statistics of that position. Kyrie's usage rate is high enough that he should average better than 5 and a half assists per game. The raw stats speak loudly here and it would be incumbent upon you to prove that they're wrong. You've failed to do that.
4. Nice try, epic fail. You mentioned Lebron. So let's use him. Lebron plays defense all year around. He's been 1st team All-Defense 5 times. How many times has Kyrie been All NBA Defense? Again, superstars show up every night. Kyrie scored 11 points last night. Lebron has scored 11 points in exactly one game in the last 5 years. Kyrie isn't in the same universe. Simply put, he's never demonstrated the ability in his entire NBA career to put a team on his shoulders and carry them.
I find it amusing that somehow you point to a couple of 7 game series - one of which he played an injured opponent about even up and the other where he was clearly outplayed - as some sort of proof of his greatness. If greatness were a shot or a series, Big Shot Rob or Sleepy Floyd would be "superstars". I don't consider either one in that category. And if you're giving up more than you're getting and you're supposedly one of the top players on the court, then you didn't help your team win.
Finally, time has nothing to do with this. The question as phrased is current. Not future. No one has said that he can't become one. So it's a point that we will NEVER agree upon because right now Kyrie ain't a superstar. He's a good player who needs to improve his game to get to that level. Maybe he'll get there. Maybe he won't. We'll see.
The Jury is still out.
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I believe this polémique lies in the fact that the most of us were raised in the belief that defense wins championships. I thought so too. It was the truth for a long, long time, but with the 3pt era rennesaince, the offense became more significant. Like it took me some time to realise that, it also took me some 5 years to realise that Kyries offensive capital massively overmatches his defensive shortcommings. The 2nd trend was the switchiness, I saw him switch in the playoffs/finals and was even less worried. To me he looks like the 2nd best offensive guard in the league, behind only Steph. In this era, a guy that is this close/comparable to the on floor Steph is a Superstar. Now with CBS guiding him, he can only go higher and for Steph, there is no place but to go down.
I find that the most of the general NBA narratives are slow catching up to the real truth on the floor. Usually a year or two late IMO. In that time span we will get the answer to this debate. Some will change their minds, some won't.
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If Kyrie keeps playing defense like this, he is easily a top 3 PG behind Steph and Westbrook.
If his defense falls back to the norm for his historical performance, he is back in that Lillard-Walker-IT realm of top 5-7 PG where they are all on similar levels.
I don't know if the former makes him a superstar, but he would be a really great player to have in either scenario.
Where is Harden in that hypothetical? Number 4? I think right now he's easily Top-3 in NBA.
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I've never considered Kyrie a superstar. There are only a handful of those in the league in my mind. Under CBS it really feels like he'll unlock Kyrie's true potential and it's just a matter of time though. He's already started and it's a joy to watch unfold.
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I believe this polémique lies in the fact that the most of us were raised in the belief that defense wins championships.
Nonsense, it lies in the fact that he's a point guard. They are a dime a dozen. Chris Paul doesn't win you championships. We're binding max money on a position where we could get 80% of the production for 20% of the cost.
Why do you think there's a glut of starting calibre point guards in the league right now? A generational anomaly?
It's the handcheck rule changes.
Contrary to popular belief, the most efficient shot in the NBA is a layup (actually it's a dunk, but those have other risks). Before the changes, the best way to get close to the basket, and thus, increase your efficiency, was through posting up, grinding out and overpowering your defender. If you tried to get fancy, you would land on your ass with mach 5.
After the changes, it made more sense to use quicker, more explosive players, with good handles and a low center of gravity for shifts of pace to get closer to the basket. That's the main reason for all these high scoring numbers by team's primary ball-handlers we've seen over the last few years (just look at last season's crazy stats, from Harden to Westbrook - heck, it's the sole reason why Harden plays point guard).
Apparently, people have come to the conclusion that this means you "need an elite point guard" to play with the big boys. After all, big stats = superstar, and superstars win championships. That couldn't be further from the truth. The artificial inflation of primary ball-handler stats has made point guards not more important, it made them replacable.
What wins you championships is not big stats, or defense, or rebounding, it's something far more mundane: smart allocation of cap space.
It's not Steph Curry "who led the Warriors to a historic record", that's tabloid nonsense so you can sell a narrative to the casual public. Personal stories sell better. It's the fact they were able to get such a crazy amount of overall talent for relatively cheap, simple as that.
Binding max money in the 7th best point guard so you "can be competitive" and "get a guy who can make the shot" is the opposite of smart team-building. If you spend max money on that position, you're effectively throwing ~25% of your main ressource into an attrition battle.
It's a recipe for disaster, and the fact our FO doesn't seem to understand such a basic concept is more than just a little concerning.
Kyrie scored 11 points last night. Lebron has scored 11 points in exactly one game in the last 5 years.
/end thread
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I believe this polémique lies in the fact that the most of us were raised in the belief that defense wins championships.
Nonsense, it lies in the fact that he's a point guard. They are a dime a dozen. Chris Paul doesn't win you championships. We're binding max money on a position where we could get 80% of the production for 20% of the cost.
Why do you think there's a glut of starting calibre point guards in the league right now? A generational anomaly?
It's the handcheck rule changes.
Contrary to popular belief, the most efficient shot in the NBA is a layup (actually it's a dunk, but those have other risks). Before the changes, the best way to get close to the basket, and thus, increase your efficiency, was through posting up, grinding out and overpowering your defender. If you tried to get fancy, you would land on your ass with mach 5.
After the changes, it made more sense to use quicker, more explosive players, with good handles and a low center of gravity for shifts of pace to get closer to the basket. That's the main reason for all these high scoring numbers by team's primary ball-handlers we've seen over the last few years (just look at last season's crazy stats, from Harden to Westbrook - heck, it's the sole reason why Harden plays point guard).
Apparently, people have come to the conclusion that this means you "need an elite point guard" to play with the big boys. After all, big stats = superstar, and superstars win championships. That couldn't be further from the truth. The artificial inflation of primary ball-handler stats has made point guards not more important, it made them replacable.
What wins you championships is not big stats, or defense, or rebounding, it's something far more mundane: smart allocation of cap space.
It's not Steph Curry "who led the Warriors to a historic record", that's tabloid nonsense so you can sell a narrative to the casual public. Personal stories sell better. It's the fact they were able to get such a crazy amount of overall talent for relatively cheap, simple as that.
Binding max money in the 7th best point guard so you "can be competitive" and "get a guy who can make the shot" is the opposite of smart team-building. If you spend max money on that position, you're effectively throwing ~25% of your main ressource into an attrition battle.
It's a recipe for disaster, and the fact our FO doesn't seem to understand such a basic concept is more than just a little concerning.
Kyrie scored 11 points last night. Lebron has scored 11 points in exactly one game in the last 5 years.
/end thread
I actually agree with your points, but Kyrie is making the old max (less than 20% of the cap rn) and he scored 32 tonight lol (not to say he'll keep this up but he's still a ~24 PPG guy rn and is leading his team to impressive wins). He's probably a top 3 PG rn with Stevens guiding him and although the trade looked bad at first, it's looking better now and I think this is pretty sustainable. I'd say this trade looks fine rn and with Brooklyn looking feisty we may have very well traded a late lottery pick, an injured star rental and a disgruntled role player with a risky prospect for a still young albeit mercurial star. I think if this happened it would be worth the upgrade.
Btw what are you hoping for this season? I enjoy your views a lot and it would be fun to hear more about your hopes rather than your dissatisfactions about the team lol.
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If Kyrie keeps playing defense like this, he is easily a top 3 PG behind Steph and Westbrook.
If his defense falls back to the norm for his historical performance, he is back in that Lillard-Walker-IT realm of top 5-7 PG where they are all on similar levels.
I don't know if the former makes him a superstar, but he would be a really great player to have in either scenario.
Where is Harden in that hypothetical? Number 4? I think right now he's easily Top-3 in NBA.
If we classify Harden as a PG then he is in the top 3 even though I hate to admit it. Harden is amazing to watch but his lack of heart and desire in big games is alarming. We all know things get difficult in the playoffs but Harden has yet to show that he can elevate his game against elite competition. That aside, his talent, skills, and stats certainly put him up there as an elite player regardless of position.
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As a problem...that other teams can't solve... ;D ;D ;D
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As a problem...that other teams can't solve... ;D ;D ;D
LOL.
You check out the Hawks Twitter feed yesterday when they posted the final score? :laugh:
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I've never considered Kyrie a superstar. There are only a handful of those in the league in my mind. Under CBS it really feels like he'll unlock Kyrie's true potential and it's just a matter of time though. He's already started and it's a joy to watch unfold.
Yeah that's how I view it.
Isaiah had a much better season than Kyrie last year and wasn't considered a superstar.
So there's probably only a select few in the league (I have 9-10 names) and then a lot of all-star caliber players.
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I have Kyrie in my Top-20 (barely), so I view him as legitimate star, but not superstar.
He's a superstar scorer though, like Isaiah Thomas was last year, if that makes sense.
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Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
-
I've never considered Kyrie a superstar. There are only a handful of those in the league in my mind. Under CBS it really feels like he'll unlock Kyrie's true potential and it's just a matter of time though. He's already started and it's a joy to watch unfold.
Yeah that's how I view it.
Isaiah had a much better season than Kyrie last year and wasn't considered a superstar.
So there's probably only a select few in the league (I have 9-10 names) and then a lot of all-star caliber players.
Hard to call a top 5 MVP vote getter not considered a superstar
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I've never considered Kyrie a superstar. There are only a handful of those in the league in my mind. Under CBS it really feels like he'll unlock Kyrie's true potential and it's just a matter of time though. He's already started and it's a joy to watch unfold.
Yeah that's how I view it.
Isaiah had a much better season than Kyrie last year and wasn't considered a superstar.
So there's probably only a select few in the league (I have 9-10 names) and then a lot of all-star caliber players.
Hard to call a top 5 MVP vote getter not considered a superstar
I think he should be, but I'm saying most on here and most of the fan base in general don't seem to think so. :P
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Irving is A- level player as is Hayward. That is probably a "superstar" but it is not a transcendent player.
Eh idk.. I don't view Hayward as a superstar but a legit all-star, and think Irving > Hayward (by small margin).
But yeah agree on the second part ("maybe a superstar-caliber player but not transcendent")
-
Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??
-
Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??
He's arguably not even the best player on his team. In no world does he crack the top 10.
-
Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??
He's arguably not even the best player on his team. In no world does he crack the top 10.
Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.
Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
-
Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??
He's arguably not even the best player on his team. In no world does he crack the top 10.
Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.
Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?
-
Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??
He's arguably not even the best player on his team. In no world does he crack the top 10.
Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.
Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?
Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)
-
Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??
He's arguably not even the best player on his team. In no world does he crack the top 10.
Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.
Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?
Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)
Oh wait nvm, I'm an idiot I kept misreading that.
I'd probably lean on the Top-10 player. He can carry you throughout a whole game (including the finishing moments).
-
Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??
He's arguably not even the best player on his team. In no world does he crack the top 10.
Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.
Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?
Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)
Sorry to jump in, but I find that concept interesting. Irving isn't a top 10 player in this league, yet you can make an incredibly strong argument he is a top 3 finisher for a ball game. I mean he won a championship for LeBron at what 24?
The top 3 team comes from having enough of a team to be one of the best teams. So basically our team is setup for the post season as follows. Keep the game close enough against the world beaters where our top 3 unstoppable finisher can close the game in our favor.
It's an interesting concept. For example, alot of people around here would consider prime Paul George a top 10 player (rough patch recently), yet his closing abilities were atrocious. So would you want that "top 10 player" or a top 3 finisher on a top team, even though they aren't top 10.
-
Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??
He's arguably not even the best player on his team. In no world does he crack the top 10.
Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.
Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?
Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)
Sorry to jump in, but I find that concept interesting. Irving isn't a top 10 player in this league, yet you can make an incredibly strong argument he is a top 3 finisher for a ball game. I mean he won a championship for LeBron at what 24?
The top 3 team comes from having enough of a team to be one of the best teams. So basically our team is setup for the post season as follows. Keep the game close enough against the world bearers where our top 3 unstoppable finisher can close the game in our favor.
It's an interesting concept. For example, alot of people around here would consider prime Paul George a top 10 player (rough patch recently), yet his closing abilities were atrocious. So would you want that "top 10 player" or a top 3 finisher on a top team, even though they aren't top 10.
Agree when you look at it that way it really makes you think. Very interesting concept.
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I believe this polémique lies in the fact that the most of us were raised in the belief that defense wins championships.
Nonsense, it lies in the fact that he's a point guard. They are a dime a dozen. Chris Paul doesn't win you championships. We're binding max money on a position where we could get 80% of the production for 20% of the cost.
Why do you think there's a glut of starting calibre point guards in the league right now? A generational anomaly?
It's the handcheck rule changes.
Contrary to popular belief, the most efficient shot in the NBA is a layup (actually it's a dunk, but those have other risks). Before the changes, the best way to get close to the basket, and thus, increase your efficiency, was through posting up, grinding out and overpowering your defender. If you tried to get fancy, you would land on your ass with mach 5.
After the changes, it made more sense to use quicker, more explosive players, with good handles and a low center of gravity for shifts of pace to get closer to the basket. That's the main reason for all these high scoring numbers by team's primary ball-handlers we've seen over the last few years (just look at last season's crazy stats, from Harden to Westbrook - heck, it's the sole reason why Harden plays point guard).
Apparently, people have come to the conclusion that this means you "need an elite point guard" to play with the big boys. After all, big stats = superstar, and superstars win championships. That couldn't be further from the truth. The artificial inflation of primary ball-handler stats has made point guards not more important, it made them replacable.
What wins you championships is not big stats, or defense, or rebounding, it's something far more mundane: smart allocation of cap space.
It's not Steph Curry "who led the Warriors to a historic record", that's tabloid nonsense so you can sell a narrative to the casual public. Personal stories sell better. It's the fact they were able to get such a crazy amount of overall talent for relatively cheap, simple as that.
Binding max money in the 7th best point guard so you "can be competitive" and "get a guy who can make the shot" is the opposite of smart team-building. If you spend max money on that position, you're effectively throwing ~25% of your main ressource into an attrition battle.
It's a recipe for disaster, and the fact our FO doesn't seem to understand such a basic concept is more than just a little concerning.
Kyrie scored 11 points last night. Lebron has scored 11 points in exactly one game in the last 5 years.
/end thread
I mean Curry just signed a 200M deal and Klay+Draymond are due for contracts.
Warriors may run into cap issues in 2 years unless they are happy with paying a massive luxury tax.
That's kind of the reality of the NBA now. Hard to truly sustain contenders for a very long time due to cap space.
Spurs you could say are exception to that with coach Pop, and hopefully we are too with Brad Stevens!
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I believe this polémique lies in the fact that the most of us were raised in the belief that defense wins championships.
Nonsense, it lies in the fact that he's a point guard. They are a dime a dozen. Chris Paul doesn't win you championships. We're binding max money on a position where we could get 80% of the production for 20% of the cost.
Why do you think there's a glut of starting calibre point guards in the league right now? A generational anomaly?
It's the handcheck rule changes.
....
Apparently, people have come to the conclusion that this means you "need an elite point guard" to play with the big boys. After all, big stats = superstar, and superstars win championships. That couldn't be further from the truth. The artificial inflation of primary ball-handler stats has made point guards not more important, it made them replacable.
I concur with much of your post except for the highlighted conclusion.
The change in the rules has not so much made having an elite, scoring guard (or attacking wing like Harden) replaceable so much as it has made having such a player a necessity. To keep up in scoring now, you kind of have to have such a player.
The changes have also made perimeter guard defense far less important than it was before (because the rules make stopping such attackers at the perimeter kind of futile) while increasing the importance of defense in bigs and wings (to deal with the inevitable penetration).
-
Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??
He's arguably not even the best player on his team. In no world does he crack the top 10.
Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.
Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?
Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)
Sorry to jump in, but I find that concept interesting. Irving isn't a top 10 player in this league, yet you can make an incredibly strong argument he is a top 3 finisher for a ball game. I mean he won a championship for LeBron at what 24?
The top 3 team comes from having enough of a team to be one of the best teams. So basically our team is setup for the post season as follows. Keep the game close enough against the world bearers where our top 3 unstoppable finisher can close the game in our favor.
It's an interesting concept. For example, alot of people around here would consider prime Paul George a top 10 player (rough patch recently), yet his closing abilities were atrocious. So would you want that "top 10 player" or a top 3 finisher on a top team, even though they aren't top 10.
Agree when you look at it that way it really makes you think. Very interesting concept.
Thanks guys. I would like to think these were some of the Pros and Cons that were considered when we created our package for Irving.
-
Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??
He's arguably not even the best player on his team. In no world does he crack the top 10.
Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.
Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?
Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)
Sorry to jump in, but I find that concept interesting. Irving isn't a top 10 player in this league, yet you can make an incredibly strong argument he is a top 3 finisher for a ball game. I mean he won a championship for LeBron at what 24?
The top 3 team comes from having enough of a team to be one of the best teams. So basically our team is setup for the post season as follows. Keep the game close enough against the world bearers where our top 3 unstoppable finisher can close the game in our favor.
It's an interesting concept. For example, alot of people around here would consider prime Paul George a top 10 player (rough patch recently), yet his closing abilities were atrocious. So would you want that "top 10 player" or a top 3 finisher on a top team, even though they aren't top 10.
Agree when you look at it that way it really makes you think. Very interesting concept.
Thanks guys. I would like to think these were some of the Pros and Cons that were considered when we created our package for Irving.
The package they gave up was too much but I'm guessing they thought IT's injury would really affect him the rest of his career.
But if IT returns and plays like he did last year... then yeah it's going to look like Ainge over-payed big time.
-
Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??
He's arguably not even the best player on his team. In no world does he crack the top 10.
Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.
Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?
Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)
Sorry to jump in, but I find that concept interesting. Irving isn't a top 10 player in this league, yet you can make an incredibly strong argument he is a top 3 finisher for a ball game. I mean he won a championship for LeBron at what 24?
The top 3 team comes from having enough of a team to be one of the best teams. So basically our team is setup for the post season as follows. Keep the game close enough against the world beaters where our top 3 unstoppable finisher can close the game in our favor.
It's an interesting concept. For example, alot of people around here would consider prime Paul George a top 10 player (rough patch recently), yet his closing abilities were atrocious. So would you want that "top 10 player" or a top 3 finisher on a top team, even though they aren't top 10.
What’s the “top 3” designation come from?
http://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=GP*GE*20
Kyrie’s clutch shooting was terrible last year.
-
Top 3 Guard
Top 10 Player
Superstar Status
Wow, Top 10?
There's NO WAY Kyrie is Top-10 in this league. REALLY??
He's arguably not even the best player on his team. In no world does he crack the top 10.
Well agree with you on the Top-10 part.. but I do think Irving is the best player on this team.
Yes Horford does a lot and I think he's underrated (annoys me when people say he's overrated, not worth the max and they should trade him), and Hayward is a legitimate all-star, but Kyrie is the best player on this team.
Would you rather have a top 10 player or a top 3 finsher to close out games for your top 3 team?
Wait what do you mean? (Sorry I'm confused)
Sorry to jump in, but I find that concept interesting. Irving isn't a top 10 player in this league, yet you can make an incredibly strong argument he is a top 3 finisher for a ball game. I mean he won a championship for LeBron at what 24?
The top 3 team comes from having enough of a team to be one of the best teams. So basically our team is setup for the post season as follows. Keep the game close enough against the world beaters where our top 3 unstoppable finisher can close the game in our favor.
It's an interesting concept. For example, alot of people around here would consider prime Paul George a top 10 player (rough patch recently), yet his closing abilities were atrocious. So would you want that "top 10 player" or a top 3 finisher on a top team, even though they aren't top 10.
What’s the “top 3” designation come from?
http://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=GP*GE*20
Kyrie’s clutch shooting was terrible last year.
Just saw this, but dang Isaiah was 2nd on this last.
But then Jerryd Bayless and Cheick Diallo are Top-6 on this too :laugh:
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Games like tonight really make you think...
Isaiah had these kinds of performances last year too at times, but Kyrie's performances just have a different vibe to them somehow... (might also be his defense being REALLY good)
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He should be in the MVP conversation.
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um, a godsend?
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um, a godsend?
He absolutely was last night.
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um, a godsend?
He absolutely was last night.
Absolutely. As he was against the Hawks the prior game. Those were easily 2 of the 3 best games he's had offensively since he arrived. If he continues to produce at that level (or close to it) then he's certainly elevated his game. But he was 4-16 against the Warriors, 7-21 against the Lakers and 4-13 against Orlando in three of the previous 6 games prior to the Atlanta game. He needs a bit more consistency before I'm ready to say he's taken a step forward.
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Kyrie Irving has the best handles and ball control in the NBA, but not always the best judgement.
Kyrie Irving is a wildly inconsistent defender.
Kyrie Irving is an amazing finisher around the hoop, he's also a potent jumpshooter
Kyrie Irving is a good, but not great (among starting point guards) passer.
Kyrie Irving is a better leader than I thought he was, or at the very least he's a catalyst the other guys can rally around and doesn't disrupt chemistry.
Kyrie Irving is a magician who can conjure comebacks and baskets from thin air.
Kyrie Irving is a wildly inconsistent defender still but he's been better than he was in Cleveland for sure.
That's pretty much how I see him.
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Kyrie Irving is the most talented and best player to dawn a Celtics uniform since Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. Period. Full stop.
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He was certainly a superstar last night.
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Slam dunk
Yes he is !
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Right now he is a upper tier all star, arguably the best in the league at his position (certainly in the mix). As he becomes more integrated on the Celtics, elite NBA player. He is better than I thought.
You have LeBron and Durant at the top but after that, isn't he right there with Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Davis? Kahwi Leonard? Who would you swap Irving with to make the Celtics better? I couldn't name 10 I would swap him for, maybe not 5.
Everything is just coming so easily for him since he joined the Celtics. He just seems to glide; like a really good center fielder in baseball. Makes me think he still has another gear that he can kick in when he needs it.
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I don't really get into the superstar label and all that, but I think with him playing this level of defense (and how smoothly he is playing within the team) you have to put him in the discussion with the top players in the league. For me LeBron is the best and I might have Harden and Leonard next myself, and he's in the mix after that.
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Kyrie Irving is the most talented and best player to dawn a Celtics uniform since Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. Period. Full stop.
Okay that might be a stretch.
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Kyrie Irving is the most talented and best player to dawn a Celtics uniform since Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. Period. Full stop.
Okay that might be a stretch.
I mean the only competition is Rondo and IT.
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I think Kyrie has the potential to be the best Celtic player since KG and Pierce, but so do Jaylen and Jayson. If all three do, we're talking dynasty babeeeeee!!!!
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Kyrie Irving is the most talented and best player to dawn a Celtics uniform since Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. Period. Full stop.
Okay that might be a stretch.
I mean the only competition is Rondo and IT.
Oh wait (FACEPALM) I completely misread that.
It says "SINCE" KG and Pierce.
I thought he meant like best player in franchise history besides KG/Pierce LOL.
Anyways that is possible but as of now that's still Isaiah.
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I think Kyrie has the potential to be the best Celtic player since KG and Pierce, but so do Jaylen and Jayson. If all three do, we're talking dynasty babeeeeee!!!!
With Hayward, Horford and another Top-5 pick (2018 OR 2019) in the mix, agreed! ;D
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He was certainly a superstar last night.
Last night, yes.
But Isaiah had these kinds of nights too last season far often, but wasn't considered a superstar still.
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Kyrie Irving is the most talented and best player to dawn a Celtics uniform since Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. Period. Full stop.
Okay that might be a stretch.
I mean the only competition is Rondo and IT.
Eh, IT yes. Rondo honestly I'd say "no" here lol.
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He was certainly a superstar last night.
Last night, yes.
But Isaiah had these kinds of nights too last season far often, but wasn't considered a superstar still.
Probably because IT was a 5'9" PG who didn't play any defense and was the 60th player picked in his draft. IT was always an overachiever with a ceiling cause of his lack of size who needed the perfect system built around him. While Kyrie was the #1 player in his draft and one of the most talented players in the league. I don't think I ever seen a player with a better handle than Kyrie. Kyrie is suppose to be one of the top players in the NBA and now has a team all to himself to show it.
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He was certainly a superstar last night.
Last night, yes.
But Isaiah had these kinds of nights too last season far often, but wasn't considered a superstar still.
Probably because IT was a 5'9" PG who didn't play any defense and was the 60th player picked in his draft. IT was always an overachiever with a ceiling cause of his lack of size who needed the perfect system built around him. While Kyrie was the #1 player in his draft and one of the most talented players in the league. I don't think I ever seen a player with a better handle than Kyrie. Kyrie is suppose to be one of the top players in the NBA and now has a team all to himself to show it.
I agree and think it has more to do with defense.
Kyrie's playing elite defense (as stats show). If he wasn't playing defense like IT last year, there wouldn't be as much hype. That's a big difference IMHO.
Kyrie's scoring average a bit down, BUT his defense is statistically Top-15 in the entire league. :o
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Jalen Rose on First Take today, during the Lebron-to-Philly discussions, mentioned Kyrie and the Greek Freak as the 2nd and 3rd best players in the East while making a point in his argument.
Idk, being 2nd/3rd best in a conference sounds like "superstar" in my books, though I don't think so. (Voted "Legit All-Star, Only Fringe Superstar")
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i view him as an inter dimensional basketball wizard who is able to warp space and time to get buckets
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i view him as an inter dimensional basketball wizard who is able to warp space and time to get buckets
Wrong team.
;) :laugh:
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i view him as an inter dimensional basketball wizard who is able to warp space and time to get buckets
Wrong team.
;) :laugh:
ha
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i view him as an inter dimensional basketball wizard who is able to warp space and time to get buckets
Wrong team.
;) :laugh:
ha
:P
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Best ball handler in the history of the NBA.
Hyperbole?
I don't think so.
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We're a quarter of the way through the season, and it's real hard to argue he isn't one of the best players in the league right now. And he's played good ball both ways.
If that's not a superstar, I don't know what is.
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We're a quarter of the way through the season, and it's real hard to argue he isn't one of the best players in the league right now. And he's played good ball both ways.
If that's not a superstar, I don't know what is.
Do you consider Kyrie Top-10, Top-15 or Top-20 overall in league?
We had a "fun" debate about this yesterday on the game thread :laugh:
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i view him as an inter dimensional basketball wizard who is able to warp space and time to get buckets
I've been calling him The Wizard of Causeway street, in my head.
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Though he takes complete control of the ball in closing minutes, it really seems to me that the ball touches more hands on each possession than it used to. He is scoring like nuts, at will, and in crunch time, and yet the whole team seems to be involved and engaged in the offense. It's not 48 minutes of high p/r.
It looks like the game is just slow to him; he never has to rush anything. Complete control.
We have a #1 guy who can win it all and makes the team better.
And he gives some fascinating interviews.
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We're a quarter of the way through the season, and it's real hard to argue he isn't one of the best players in the league right now. And he's played good ball both ways.
If that's not a superstar, I don't know what is.
He's playing on one of the best teams in the NBA, with a ton of support around him, and a wizard of a coach. So it really depends how you define superstar. If every team has one, for example, then sure.. he's a superstar.
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We're a quarter of the way through the season, and it's real hard to argue he isn't one of the best players in the league right now. And he's played good ball both ways.
If that's not a superstar, I don't know what is.
He's playing on one of the best teams in the NBA, with a ton of support around him, and a wizard of a coach. So it really depends how you define superstar. If every team has one, for example, then sure.. he's a superstar.
Main difference is, Kyrie's playing MUCH better defense than Isaiah ever could.
But I mean, Isaiah was an MVP candidate last year too and averaged 29/6 (carried us to ECF as well), but no one considered him a superstar.
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We're a quarter of the way through the season, and it's real hard to argue he isn't one of the best players in the league right now. And he's played good ball both ways.
If that's not a superstar, I don't know what is.
Do you consider Kyrie Top-10, Top-15 or Top-20 overall in league?
We had a "fun" debate about this yesterday on the game thread :laugh:
Kyrie is a top 15 player. Through my green goggles, I think Kyrie's the 9th best player. I ranked the top 30 players.
Lebron
KD
Steph
Westbrook
Kawhi
Giannis
Anthony Davis
Harden
Kyrie
Cousins
Chris Paul
Lillard
Paul George
John Wall
KAT
IT
Porzingis
Marc Gasol
Jokic
Whiteside
Drummond
Gobert
Embiid
Klay
Lowry
Simmons
Hayward
Derozan
Blake Griffin
Horford
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We're a quarter of the way through the season, and it's real hard to argue he isn't one of the best players in the league right now. And he's played good ball both ways.
If that's not a superstar, I don't know what is.
He's playing on one of the best teams in the NBA, with a ton of support around him, and a wizard of a coach. So it really depends how you define superstar. If every team has one, for example, then sure.. he's a superstar.
Main difference is, Kyrie's playing MUCH better defense than Isaiah ever could.
But I mean, Isaiah was an MVP candidate last year too and averaged 29/6 (carried us to ECF as well), but no one considered him a superstar.
He's the weakest link in the best defense in the NBA.
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
Every other person on your list is an elite two-way player (minus Steph, the best shooter of all-time) and arguably the most athletic player at his position. Kyrie literally sucks at half of the game that is played. I don't see how he can be a top 10 player with that.
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
Every other person on your list is an elite two-way player (minus Steph, the best shooter of all-time) and arguably the most athletic player at his position. Kyrie literally sucks at half of the game that is played. He's not a top 10 player, unless Damian Lillard is 10b. As another poster recently replied on a comment of mine, "this is crap."
You're literally wrong.
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
Every other person on your list is an elite two-way player (minus Steph, the best shooter of all-time) and arguably the most athletic player at his position. Kyrie literally sucks at half of the game that is played. He's not a top 10 player, unless Damian Lillard is 10b. As another poster recently replied on a comment of mine, "this is crap."
You're literally wrong.
Oh good. I don't know what part you're referring to, but what's the evidence against?
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
Every other person on your list is an elite two-way player (minus Steph, the best shooter of all-time) and arguably the most athletic player at his position. Kyrie literally sucks at half of the game that is played. He's not a top 10 player, unless Damian Lillard is 10b. As another poster recently replied on a comment of mine, "this is crap."
You're literally wrong.
Oh good. I don't know what part you're referring to, but what's the evidence against?
Well I know that when I say something like "he's clearly more engaged on defence here than in Cleveland, and has been playing solidly both in 1v1 defensive situations and in team defence" you'd just ignore it and not provide any evidence of your own.
What's the point?
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
Every other person on your list is an elite two-way player (minus Steph, the best shooter of all-time) and arguably the most athletic player at his position. Kyrie literally sucks at half of the game that is played. I don't see how he can be a top 10 player with that.
Westbrook doesn't play great defense. It looks to me like Irving is playing defense at least as well as Westbrook this year. And Westbrook has trouble playing with others. I think he concentrates more on his rebounding numbers and pre and post game outfits than he thinks about getting the most out of his teammates.
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potential Finals MVP with the C's :P
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
You have AD twice.
James
Harden
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Giannis
Davis
After that, Irving has to be in the mix.
Westbrook takes a lot of really bad shots and doesn't seem to make his teammates better. In addition, he's not good off-ball because he's not that good of a shooter.
I expected Towns to take a leap this season, but his defense is atrocious.
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
You have AD twice.
James
Harden
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Giannis
Davis
After that, Irving has to be in the mix.
Westbrook takes a lot of really bad shots and doesn't seem to make his teammates better. In addition, he's not good off-ball because he's not that good of a shooter.
I expected Towns to take a leap this season, but his defense is atrocious.
Wouldn't Porzingis, Embiid be above Kyrie as well?
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
You have AD twice.
James
Harden
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Giannis
Davis
After that, Irving has to be in the mix.
Westbrook takes a lot of really bad shots and doesn't seem to make his teammates better. In addition, he's not good off-ball because he's not that good of a shooter.
I expected Towns to take a leap this season, but his defense is atrocious.
Wouldn't Porzingis, Embiid be above Kyrie as well?
I wouldn't. I've seen Porzingis come up really short in crucial points and Embiid can't play back-to-backs or heavy minutes.
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
You have AD twice.
James
Harden
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Giannis
Davis
After that, Irving has to be in the mix.
Westbrook takes a lot of really bad shots and doesn't seem to make his teammates better. In addition, he's not good off-ball because he's not that good of a shooter.
I expected Towns to take a leap this season, but his defense is atrocious.
Wouldn't Porzingis, Embiid be above Kyrie as well?
I wouldn't. I've seen Porzingis come up really short in crucial points and Embiid can't play back-to-backs or heavy minutes.
Fair enough, but Cousins is above him for sure. Guy is having a monster, MVP season at the moment.
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
You have AD twice.
James
Harden
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Giannis
Davis
After that, Irving has to be in the mix.
Westbrook takes a lot of really bad shots and doesn't seem to make his teammates better. In addition, he's not good off-ball because he's not that good of a shooter.
I expected Towns to take a leap this season, but his defense is atrocious.
Wouldn't Porzingis, Embiid be above Kyrie as well?
I wouldn't. I've seen Porzingis come up really short in crucial points and Embiid can't play back-to-backs or heavy minutes.
Fair enough, but Cousins is above him for sure. Guy is having a monster, MVP season at the moment.
No way. He's Derrick Coleman 2.0, a highly talented player who gives inconsistent effort and seems to have an overall negative effect on a franchise. He's a stats without substance guy.
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
You have AD twice.
James
Harden
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Giannis
Davis
After that, Irving has to be in the mix.
Westbrook takes a lot of really bad shots and doesn't seem to make his teammates better. In addition, he's not good off-ball because he's not that good of a shooter.
I expected Towns to take a leap this season, but his defense is atrocious.
Wouldn't Porzingis, Embiid be above Kyrie as well?
I wouldn't. I've seen Porzingis come up really short in crucial points and Embiid can't play back-to-backs or heavy minutes.
Fair enough, but Cousins is above him for sure. Guy is having a monster, MVP season at the moment.
No way. He's Derrick Coleman 2.0, a highly talented player who gives inconsistent effort and seems to have an overall negative effect on a franchise. He's a stats without substance guy.
Well, he's a big part of why the Pelicans look decent so far lol.
Idk Cousins is a polarizing player. But statistically he's playing like a superstar and is an MVP-candidate at the moment.
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
You have AD twice.
James
Harden
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Giannis
Davis
After that, Irving has to be in the mix.
Westbrook takes a lot of really bad shots and doesn't seem to make his teammates better. In addition, he's not good off-ball because he's not that good of a shooter.
I expected Towns to take a leap this season, but his defense is atrocious.
Wouldn't Porzingis, Embiid be above Kyrie as well?
I wouldn't. I've seen Porzingis come up really short in crucial points and Embiid can't play back-to-backs or heavy minutes.
Fair enough, but Cousins is above him for sure. Guy is having a monster, MVP season at the moment.
No way. He's Derrick Coleman 2.0, a highly talented player who gives inconsistent effort and seems to have an overall negative effect on a franchise. He's a stats without substance guy.
Well, he's a big part of why the Pelicans look decent so far lol.
Idk Cousins is a polarizing player. But statistically he's playing like a superstar and is an MVP-candidate at the moment.
Yet he was traded for peanuts while Irving cost us an arm and a leg.
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Absolutely a superstar. Easily top 5 in his position. If you swapped him and Steph on this C’s team, I don’t think you’ll see much of an improvement or drop off. I think they’re the 2 best PG’s in the league right now (though Westbrook makes a good case as well) and in my mind, two of the 10 best players in the league.
Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, AD, Steph, Kyrie, Westbrook, AD and idk who would round out the top 10. Porzingis maybe?
You have AD twice.
James
Harden
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Giannis
Davis
After that, Irving has to be in the mix.
Westbrook takes a lot of really bad shots and doesn't seem to make his teammates better. In addition, he's not good off-ball because he's not that good of a shooter.
I expected Towns to take a leap this season, but his defense is atrocious.
Wouldn't Porzingis, Embiid be above Kyrie as well?
I wouldn't. I've seen Porzingis come up really short in crucial points and Embiid can't play back-to-backs or heavy minutes.
Fair enough, but Cousins is above him for sure. Guy is having a monster, MVP season at the moment.
No way. He's Derrick Coleman 2.0, a highly talented player who gives inconsistent effort and seems to have an overall negative effect on a franchise. He's a stats without substance guy.
Well, he's a big part of why the Pelicans look decent so far lol.
Idk Cousins is a polarizing player. But statistically he's playing like a superstar and is an MVP-candidate at the moment.
Yet he was traded for peanuts while Irving cost us an arm and a leg.
Well Cousins is a head case, but he's a superstar head case LOL.
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Cousins isn't an mvp candidate. He's not even mvp of his own team. He takes too many bad shots and leads the league in turnovers. AD is outscoring him in spite of taking 3 fewer shots per game, and is a much better defensive player.
The only people who think he's a better player than KI are butt-hurt IT fans. Get over it. IT's gone, isn't coming back, and in his place is one of the best players in the league.
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/4fe01cc7ca603ad149f209b386d35efb/tenor.gif)
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
This is all said and good, but ultimately, Kyrie will judged as a superstar with what he does here in Boston. He is the alpha here. This is his team until Brown and Tatum take it over.
He needs to keep playing quality defense. He needs to keep being an efficient scorer. He needs to keep being a great facillitator. And needs to keep winning and win some a bunch of playoff games and a title or more.
He is currently looking like a superstar this season. If he does what I said, he will be an established superstar for some time.
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
This is all said and good, but ultimately, Kyrie will judged as a superstar with what he does here in Boston. He is the alpha here. This is his team until Brown and Tatum take it over.
He needs to keep playing quality defense. He needs to keep being an efficient scorer. He needs to keep being a great facillitator. And needs to keep winning and win some a bunch of playoff games and a title or more.
He is currently looking like a superstar this season. If he does what I said, he will be an established superstar for some time.
Yep. The thing is though, playoffs is where Kyrie is regarded as one of the best in the league (even on Lebron's level w/the added clutchness), so I'm excited to see what he can do for us in the playoffs against great teams late in games! ;D
Obviously though, there's a long ways to go this season. One game at a time now.
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Well, for those who wished physical harm on me for objectively evaluating Kyrie, you got your wish -- I had the same exact injury as Hayward today but instead of my right arm. Borderline compound fracture, coimplete break of radius and ulna, and dislocated wrist.
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Well, for those who wished physical harm on me for objectively evaluating Kyrie, you got your wish -- I had the same exact injury as Hayward today but instead of my right arm. Borderline compound fracture, coimplete break of radius and ulna, and dislocated wrist.
Yikes man. I don't think anyone wishes physical harm on someone for their views of an athletic team. Hope that was a joke.
What happened?
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Well, for those who wished physical harm on me for objectively evaluating Kyrie, you got your wish -- I had the same exact injury as Hayward today but instead of my right arm. Borderline compound fracture, coimplete break of radius and ulna, and dislocated wrist.
Honestly don't think anyone wished you harm, tarheels. I know I wish you only the best during this tough time and hope you're past this injury and back to normal as soon as possible.
Get better bro.
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Thanks for we;; wishes. Posted here because it was my last CB tab open, but feel free to move. Dont want to disrupt tht thread topic..
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Well, for those who wished physical harm on me for objectively evaluating Kyrie, you got your wish -- I had the same exact injury as Hayward today but instead of my right arm. Borderline compound fracture, coimplete break of radius and ulna, and dislocated wrist.
Lol at the emboldened.
But I'm not sure who wished harm upon you. I obviously disagree with you about Kyrie, but genuinely wanting someone to go through pain because of a disagreement on a forum (kinda part and parcel) is insane. Hope you get well soon - this better not slow down your posting ;)
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
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I'll make this debate easy.
Was in NYC visting family over Thanksgiving. There are adds all over the subway for the NBA Store in downtown Manhattan.
There are four players on the add, Curry, Harden, Lebron and our own Kyrie.
The NBA views him as a superstar, so we should start viewing him the same way here in Boston.
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
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Well, for those who wished physical harm on me for objectively evaluating Kyrie, you got your wish -- I had the same exact injury as Hayward today but instead of my right arm. Borderline compound fracture, coimplete break of radius and ulna, and dislocated wrist.
Yikes! That sounds awful.
I wish you a speedy recovery with as little pain as possible.
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Definitely the resume of a Top-20 player though. ;D
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Well most MVP rankings currently would disagree with you.
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My god, don't you guys ever get tired of talking about Kyrie Irving's ranking... Jeez lol.
Top 15, top 20, top 30, blah blah blah blah!
It doesn't matter what you guys think of Kyrie.
The fact of the matter is, Ainge clearly believes in his potential, and in him, specifically, or he wouldn't dished out one of our most important assets...
And we're 20-4 without Hayward, so I don't get how Irving is not at least top 20 in anyone's book.
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Hard to argue with 70% on here that thinks he is, and the fact Ainge thinks he is/ Lebron thought he was and Brad thinks he is.....
He is now my Super Star!
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
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Kyrie has been effective at what he's good at (scoring mixed with a moderate amount of playmaking for others, clutch play) and pretty good at what he's normally not (mostly defense). Whatever he is, he's been one of the better versions of it for us.
-
Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
-
Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
Are we trying to say that Carmelo Anthony would be a top 15 player in the league cause he has longer resume from being in the league longer? I don't really understand this rationale. Irving is the unquestioned best player on a top 3-4 team in the league. He was the second best player on the second best team the last few years. Not sure how he would wouldn't be in a pretty deep discussion for top 15 at this point. Also isn't most certainly going to start in the all-star this year for the east? Wall seemed to be the only serious competition and he is injured.
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Kyrie has been effective at what he's good at (scoring mixed with a moderate amount of playmaking for others, clutch play) and pretty good at what he's normally not (mostly defense). Whatever he is, he's been one of the better versions of it for us.
He definitely looks more like a team player here and seems to be trying more on defense than he did in Cleveland to be honest.
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
Far better? That’s simply not true. I’d love to see your top-15 players.
Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
Are we trying to say that Carmelo Anthony would be a top 15 player in the league cause he has longer resume from being in the league longer? I don't really understand this rationale. Irving is the unquestioned best player on a top 3-4 team in the league. He was the second best player on the second best team the last few years. Not sure how he would wouldn't be in a pretty deep discussion for top 15 at this point. Also isn't most certainly going to start in the all-star this year for the east? Wall seemed to be the only serious competition and he is injured.
I’m not sure what you are getting at. I think Kyrie is currently a top-15 player.
-
Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
Far better? That’s simply not true. I’d love to see your top-15 players.
Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
Are we trying to say that Carmelo Anthony would be a top 15 player in the league cause he has longer resume from being in the league longer? I don't really understand this rationale. Irving is the unquestioned best player on a top 3-4 team in the league. He was the second best player on the second best team the last few years. Not sure how he would wouldn't be in a pretty deep discussion for top 15 at this point. Also isn't most certainly going to start in the all-star this year for the east? Wall seemed to be the only serious competition and he is injured.
I’m not sure what you are getting at. I think Kyrie is currently a top-15 player.
Sorry my quote response was confusing. I agree with you and was disagreeing with the comments by Moranis about his resume. I definitely think he is top 15 right now also.
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
Far better? That’s simply not true. I’d love to see your top 15 players
ESPN's top 10 at the beginning of the season were Green, Giannis, Harden, Paul, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Leonard, Durant, James. Now you tell me, aside from Green (who was mich older as a rookie) which of those guys resumes are worse than Irving at 25 or the year he turned 26 (year 7 also)
-
Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
Far better? That’s simply not true. I’d love to see your top 15 players
ESPN's top 10 at the beginning of the season were Green, Giannis, Harden, Paul, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Leonard, Durant, James. Now you tell me, aside from Green (who was mich older as a rookie) which of those guys resumes are worse than Irving at 25 or the year he turned 26 (year 7 also)
what were the other 5 in the espn top 15
Curry wasn't "top of the nba" relevant until he was 26
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
Far better? That’s simply not true. I’d love to see your top 15 players
ESPN's top 10 at the beginning of the season were Green, Giannis, Harden, Paul, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Leonard, Durant, James. Now you tell me, aside from Green (who was mich older as a rookie) which of those guys resumes are worse than Irving at 25 or the year he turned 26 (year 7 also)
Westbrook and Curry quite easily. Giannis and AD it's hard to tell, because, despite the likelihood (or lack thereof) they could win a ring this season - but Kyrie still has a better resume than both of them. LeBron, KD, Kawhi, Harden and CP3 are the only ones who are comfortably above him on that list resume wise (when they were 25)
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
Far better? That’s simply not true. I’d love to see your top 15 players
ESPN's top 10 at the beginning of the season were Green, Giannis, Harden, Paul, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Leonard, Durant, James. Now you tell me, aside from Green (who was mich older as a rookie) which of those guys resumes are worse than Irving at 25 or the year he turned 26 (year 7 also)
Westbrook and Curry quite easily. Giannis and AD it's hard to tell, because, despite the likelihood (or lack thereof) they could win a ring this season - but Kyrie still has a better resume than both of them. LeBron, KD, Kawhi, Harden and CP3 are the only ones who are comfortably above him on that list resume wise (when they were 25)
Winning a ring when you aren't your team's best player isn't exactly a notch in the belt. It is nice, but if you can award that ring to one player it would go to Lebron.
Giannis is 23 and already has a 2nd Team All NBA and a 2nd Team All Defensive NBA. He also has a top 10 finish in MVP voting. It can be argued he already has a better resume and he still has 2+ years to go.
Westbrook before he turned 25 already had 3 All NBA 2nd Team appearances as well as MVP votes in two seasons (including a top 10). Thus he had far more recognition as a top 15 player than Irving did at a similar age.
Curry, like Green, was a much older rookie though he did have an All NBA 2nd Team and a 6th place finish in MVP voting (as well as an 11th place finish) when he was 25 or younger. He won his first MVP at 26 in his 6th year and was the best player on a title team that year as well (so less overall experience than Irving).
Davis isn't yet 25 and in year 6. He has a 5th and 9th place finish in MVP voting, two 1st Team All NBA and two 2nd Team All Defense, and like Irving also has an All Star Game MVP.
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
Far better? That’s simply not true. I’d love to see your top 15 players
ESPN's top 10 at the beginning of the season were Green, Giannis, Harden, Paul, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Leonard, Durant, James. Now you tell me, aside from Green (who was mich older as a rookie) which of those guys resumes are worse than Irving at 25 or the year he turned 26 (year 7 also)
what were the other 5 in the espn top 15
Curry wasn't "top of the nba" relevant until he was 26
As I said in my other post, Curry had twice received MVP votes (including a 6th place finish) at or before 25. He also had a 2nd Team All NBA. Those are things Irving has yet to achieve.
11 - 15 were Butler, Towns, George, Gobert, Wall. Butler was an old rookie at 22 but did at least have two 2nd Team All Defense. George had 3 3rd Team All NBA, a 1st and two 2nd Team All Defense and a top ten MVP finish. Gobert is 25 this year and coming off a 2nd Team All NBA and a 1st Team All Defense season. Towns is just 22 and only in year 3. Not much of a resume yet. Wall had a worse resume than Irving at age 25.
So all in all, as I said, Irving's resume is worse than most of the top 15 players at age 25.
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
Far better? That’s simply not true. I’d love to see your top 15 players
ESPN's top 10 at the beginning of the season were Green, Giannis, Harden, Paul, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Leonard, Durant, James. Now you tell me, aside from Green (who was mich older as a rookie) which of those guys resumes are worse than Irving at 25 or the year he turned 26 (year 7 also)
what were the other 5 in the espn top 15
Curry wasn't "top of the nba" relevant until he was 26
As I said in my other post, Curry had twice received MVP votes (including a 6th place finish) at or before 25. He also had a 2nd Team All NBA. Those are things Irving has yet to achieve.
11 - 15 were Butler, Towns, George, Gobert, Wall. Butler was an old rookie at 22 but did at least have two 2nd Team All Defense. George had 3 3rd Team All NBA, a 1st and two 2nd Team All Defense and a top ten MVP finish. Gobert is 25 this year and coming off a 2nd Team All NBA and a 1st Team All Defense season. Towns is just 22 and only in year 3. Not much of a resume yet. Wall had a worse resume than Irving at age 25.
So all in all, as I said, Irving's resume is worse than most of the top 15 players at age 25.
I guess the most important thing in a career, winning a title as a teams best closer, isn't appreciated these days. If it was, it surely wouldn't be valued as a lesser achievement than an all-defense team.
I have heard enough, after being 3 weeks away from the blog. I feel the shift from Kyrie doubters already shifting.
Only half a year before all of them sprinkle themselves with the ashes.
-
Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
Far better? That’s simply not true. I’d love to see your top 15 players
ESPN's top 10 at the beginning of the season were Green, Giannis, Harden, Paul, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Leonard, Durant, James. Now you tell me, aside from Green (who was mich older as a rookie) which of those guys resumes are worse than Irving at 25 or the year he turned 26 (year 7 also)
what were the other 5 in the espn top 15
Curry wasn't "top of the nba" relevant until he was 26
As I said in my other post, Curry had twice received MVP votes (including a 6th place finish) at or before 25. He also had a 2nd Team All NBA. Those are things Irving has yet to achieve.
11 - 15 were Butler, Towns, George, Gobert, Wall. Butler was an old rookie at 22 but did at least have two 2nd Team All Defense. George had 3 3rd Team All NBA, a 1st and two 2nd Team All Defense and a top ten MVP finish. Gobert is 25 this year and coming off a 2nd Team All NBA and a 1st Team All Defense season. Towns is just 22 and only in year 3. Not much of a resume yet. Wall had a worse resume than Irving at age 25.
So all in all, as I said, Irving's resume is worse than most of the top 15 players at age 25.
I guess the most important thing in a career, winning a title as a teams best closer, isn't appreciated these days. If it was, it surely wouldn't be valued as a lesser achievement than an all-defense team.
I have heard enough, after being 3 weeks away from the blog. I feel the shift from Kyrie doubters already shifting.
Only half a year before all of them sprinkle themselves with the ashes.
Wrong. That's Lebron. Irving hit one shot. Lebron carried the team and closed out most of the playoff games. Stop trying to basis Kyrie's "greatness" on one 3 point shot with 53 seconds left in the game. That's not even Big Shot Rob level of importance and it's only one shot.
If you want to argue Irving's record do it on the body of work.
-
Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
Far better? That’s simply not true. I’d love to see your top 15 players
ESPN's top 10 at the beginning of the season were Green, Giannis, Harden, Paul, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Leonard, Durant, James. Now you tell me, aside from Green (who was mich older as a rookie) which of those guys resumes are worse than Irving at 25 or the year he turned 26 (year 7 also)
what were the other 5 in the espn top 15
Curry wasn't "top of the nba" relevant until he was 26
As I said in my other post, Curry had twice received MVP votes (including a 6th place finish) at or before 25. He also had a 2nd Team All NBA. Those are things Irving has yet to achieve.
11 - 15 were Butler, Towns, George, Gobert, Wall. Butler was an old rookie at 22 but did at least have two 2nd Team All Defense. George had 3 3rd Team All NBA, a 1st and two 2nd Team All Defense and a top ten MVP finish. Gobert is 25 this year and coming off a 2nd Team All NBA and a 1st Team All Defense season. Towns is just 22 and only in year 3. Not much of a resume yet. Wall had a worse resume than Irving at age 25.
So all in all, as I said, Irving's resume is worse than most of the top 15 players at age 25.
I guess the most important thing in a career, winning a title as a teams best closer, isn't appreciated these days. If it was, it surely wouldn't be valued as a lesser achievement than an all-defense team.
I have heard enough, after being 3 weeks away from the blog. I feel the shift from Kyrie doubters already shifting.
Only half a year before all of them sprinkle themselves with the ashes.
Wrong. That's Lebron. Irving hit one shot. Lebron carried the team and closed out most of the playoff games. Stop trying to basis Kyrie's "greatness" on one 3 point shot with 53 seconds left in the game. That's not even Big Shot Rob level of importance and it's only one shot.
If you want to argue Irving's record do it on the body of work.
Kyrie is the best closer since Mike. LBJ came to him as he needed a closer of Kyries stature/greatness. LBJ was right. Watch some Cleveland games past few playoffs, and don't just write I watched them, as you won't learn anything from that. Lebron literary couldn't buy a shot from the outside 2/3 years ago and closers - make shots.
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
Far better? That’s simply not true. I’d love to see your top 15 players
ESPN's top 10 at the beginning of the season were Green, Giannis, Harden, Paul, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Leonard, Durant, James. Now you tell me, aside from Green (who was mich older as a rookie) which of those guys resumes are worse than Irving at 25 or the year he turned 26 (year 7 also)
what were the other 5 in the espn top 15
Curry wasn't "top of the nba" relevant until he was 26
As I said in my other post, Curry had twice received MVP votes (including a 6th place finish) at or before 25. He also had a 2nd Team All NBA. Those are things Irving has yet to achieve.
11 - 15 were Butler, Towns, George, Gobert, Wall. Butler was an old rookie at 22 but did at least have two 2nd Team All Defense. George had 3 3rd Team All NBA, a 1st and two 2nd Team All Defense and a top ten MVP finish. Gobert is 25 this year and coming off a 2nd Team All NBA and a 1st Team All Defense season. Towns is just 22 and only in year 3. Not much of a resume yet. Wall had a worse resume than Irving at age 25.
So all in all, as I said, Irving's resume is worse than most of the top 15 players at age 25.
I guess the most important thing in a career, winning a title as a teams best closer, isn't appreciated these days. If it was, it surely wouldn't be valued as a lesser achievement than an all-defense team.
I have heard enough, after being 3 weeks away from the blog. I feel the shift from Kyrie doubters already shifting.
Only half a year before all of them sprinkle themselves with the ashes.
Wrong. That's Lebron. Irving hit one shot. Lebron carried the team and closed out most of the playoff games. Stop trying to basis Kyrie's "greatness" on one 3 point shot with 53 seconds left in the game. That's not even Big Shot Rob level of importance and it's only one shot.
If you want to argue Irving's record do it on the body of work.
Not saying that's wrong, but Lebron DID have help from Kyrie in a lot of those games too.
Like, even with Lebron doing his thing, if his "sidekick Kyrie" didn't help along the way, it may not have mattered some of the games (ex. Game 4 last year vs. Boston, with Lebron in foul trouble and then helping at the end, but Kyrie was the BIG reason we lost that game).
Lebron was clearly the alpha, but he didn't do it entirely alone (including closing out "most" playoff games).
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
That's the thing.
Isaiah last year had a better season than Kyrie (and was a Top-5 MVP candidate). No one viewed him as a superstar, or even a Top-15 player. Hence, the "debate".
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
Not many people, especially around here, think that Kyrie isn't a top 15 player. It's a subjective list, but I think most agree that he should land around 15-20. I think the rare Kyrie haters are vastly outweighed by grateful Celtics fans. This team is a lot of fun to watch and he's our best player.
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Before this season, Kyrie was just a star. A great resume but not a superstar. But looking at what he is done this year, through 24 games he is playing like a superstar.
He is putting up the best per 36 numbers of his career. His offensive and defensive ratings are amazing(+14 differential). His PER and TS% are at career bests. And he is easily the leader of the best team in the league and the number one reason for the Celtics record.
If he keeps up his great two way play and continues his amazing playoffs play(he really has been special in the post season), he'll cement himself as a superstar.
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
Not many people, especially around here, think that Kyrie isn't a top 15 player. It's a subjective list, but I think most agree that he should land around 15-20. I think the rare Kyrie haters are vastly outweighed by grateful Celtics fans. This team is a lot of fun to watch and he's our best player.
Yep, that's where I have him.
-
Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
Not many people, especially around here, think that Kyrie isn't a top 15 player. It's a subjective list, but I think most agree that he should land around 15-20. I think the rare Kyrie haters are vastly outweighed by grateful Celtics fans. This team is a lot of fun to watch and he's our best player.
Yep, that's where I have him.
Can we go through this list of 15-19 players again who are definitely more superstar worthy than Kyrie? Because I am just not seeing it. He's got stats, flashiness, and [most importantly] is a winner. He's the whole package and I am very happy he is a Celtic.
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Superstar or not, you have to admit, Kyrie's resume is pretty impressive.
NBA champion (2016)
4× NBA All-Star (2013–2015, 2017)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2012)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA Rising Stars Challenge MVP (2012)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2013)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2014)
FIBA World Cup MVP (2014)
2016 Rio De Janeiro Olympics (Gold Medal Winner)
2014 FIBA World Champion (Spain)
2010 FIBA Americas U18 Champion (Gold Medal Winner)
2010 McDonald's All-American
2010 Nike Hoop Summit All-American
2010 Jordan Brand High School All-American
2010 First-team Parade All-American
CAREER: 21.6 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.5 RPG in 46% shooting, 38% 3 pt. shooting (6 seasons)
And of course, the game-winning shot over Steph Curry in NBA Finals, Game 7, on the road that gave Cleveland it's first title in FRANCHISE HISTORY (and first title in Cleveland after 52 years, breaking the Cleveland Sports Curse).
I'm not really sure that is all that impressive when you are talking about top level players. Just 1 All NBA Team and it was the 3rd team. The championships and things like that he was never his teams best player.
That feels like throwing shade. For a 25 year old, that is an impressive basketball resume.
It isn't the resume of a top 15 player though, which is sort of the point.
Resumes get built over time. Great players do enter the NBA with a strong resume, they more often than not need to build one through their prime, and beyond.
Please take a look at your top-15 NBA players and try to see what their resume looked like when they were 25, chances are they weren’t as good as Kyrie’s. And they were probably too-15 players at that age anyway.
we are talking about right now, but for the record, most of the current top 15 players had far better resumes at 25 than Irving does. That is what sets those guys apart from the all star level players (which Irving is).
Far better? That’s simply not true. I’d love to see your top 15 players
ESPN's top 10 at the beginning of the season were Green, Giannis, Harden, Paul, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Leonard, Durant, James. Now you tell me, aside from Green (who was mich older as a rookie) which of those guys resumes are worse than Irving at 25 or the year he turned 26 (year 7 also)
what were the other 5 in the espn top 15
Curry wasn't "top of the nba" relevant until he was 26
As I said in my other post, Curry had twice received MVP votes (including a 6th place finish) at or before 25. He also had a 2nd Team All NBA. Those are things Irving has yet to achieve.
11 - 15 were Butler, Towns, George, Gobert, Wall. Butler was an old rookie at 22 but did at least have two 2nd Team All Defense. George had 3 3rd Team All NBA, a 1st and two 2nd Team All Defense and a top ten MVP finish. Gobert is 25 this year and coming off a 2nd Team All NBA and a 1st Team All Defense season. Towns is just 22 and only in year 3. Not much of a resume yet. Wall had a worse resume than Irving at age 25.
So all in all, as I said, Irving's resume is worse than most of the top 15 players at age 25.
I guess the most important thing in a career, winning a title as a teams best closer, isn't appreciated these days. If it was, it surely wouldn't be valued as a lesser achievement than an all-defense team.
I have heard enough, after being 3 weeks away from the blog. I feel the shift from Kyrie doubters already shifting.
Only half a year before all of them sprinkle themselves with the ashes.
Wrong. That's Lebron. Irving hit one shot. Lebron carried the team and closed out most of the playoff games. Stop trying to basis Kyrie's "greatness" on one 3 point shot with 53 seconds left in the game. That's not even Big Shot Rob level of importance and it's only one shot.
If you want to argue Irving's record do it on the body of work.
Lebron is one of the greatest players of all time; probably top five. He would dwarf all but a handful of players in history were they on his team. So how is it fair to judge Kyrie’s resume when he was in the shadow of the best player in the game? How can Kyrie garner mvp consideration when he’s not the mvp of his own team? Hell, all those others players would have been dwarfed by lebron too.
If you’re paying attention, this is the exact reason Kyrie wanted to leave Cleveland. He wanted to see what he could do as the lead dog. And I think it’s been pretty evident.
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
Not many people, especially around here, think that Kyrie isn't a top 15 player. It's a subjective list, but I think most agree that he should land around 15-20. I think the rare Kyrie haters are vastly outweighed by grateful Celtics fans. This team is a lot of fun to watch and he's our best player.
Yep, that's where I have him.
Yea same. It also devolved into a weird discussion of resumes at age 25. Who are the 15 players better than him? Do people think he isn't starting in all star game or making an all NBA team this season? That would be surprising to me.
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
Not many people, especially around here, think that Kyrie isn't a top 15 player. It's a subjective list, but I think most agree that he should land around 15-20. I think the rare Kyrie haters are vastly outweighed by grateful Celtics fans. This team is a lot of fun to watch and he's our best player.
Yep, that's where I have him.
Yea same. It also devolved into a weird discussion of resumes at age 25. Who are the 15 players better than him? Do people think he isn't starting in all star game or making an all NBA team this season? That would be surprising to me.
He will clearly start the all star game (especially with Wall being hurt), and while I think he will make an All NBA Team, I don't think it is a given. Only 6 guards make it and I would be incredibly surprised if Westbrook, Curry, and Harden aren't all clearly ahead of him (unless Curry's injury keeps him out for more than a couple of weeks). Lillard is having a better statistical season right now. Then you have guys like Booker, Beal, DeRozan, Oladipo, and Walker who all are capable of ending up with better stats and that doesn't even account for Wall and Paul who have both missed time but should have enough games to get considered (unlike a guy like Thomas who will miss too much of the season). I'd currently have him on the 2nd Team, but a lot can happen over the course of the season.
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
Not many people, especially around here, think that Kyrie isn't a top 15 player. It's a subjective list, but I think most agree that he should land around 15-20. I think the rare Kyrie haters are vastly outweighed by grateful Celtics fans. This team is a lot of fun to watch and he's our best player.
Yep, that's where I have him.
Yea same. It also devolved into a weird discussion of resumes at age 25. Who are the 15 players better than him? Do people think he isn't starting in all star game or making an all NBA team this season? That would be surprising to me.
fwiw Bill Simmons had a podcast recently where he ranked the top 20 players in the league and he had Irving in his top ten and Joe House agreed, I think. No surprise there but it's worth noting that there are those willing to make the argument that Kyrie is top ten.
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
Not many people, especially around here, think that Kyrie isn't a top 15 player. It's a subjective list, but I think most agree that he should land around 15-20. I think the rare Kyrie haters are vastly outweighed by grateful Celtics fans. This team is a lot of fun to watch and he's our best player.
Yep, that's where I have him.
Yea same. It also devolved into a weird discussion of resumes at age 25. Who are the 15 players better than him? Do people think he isn't starting in all star game or making an all NBA team this season? That would be surprising to me.
fwiw Bill Simmons had a podcast recently where he ranked the top 20 players in the league and he had Irving in his top ten and Joe House agreed, I think. No surprise there but it's worth noting that there are those willing to make the argument that Kyrie is top ten.
Bill Simmons. No surprise. :P
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
Not many people, especially around here, think that Kyrie isn't a top 15 player. It's a subjective list, but I think most agree that he should land around 15-20. I think the rare Kyrie haters are vastly outweighed by grateful Celtics fans. This team is a lot of fun to watch and he's our best player.
Yep, that's where I have him.
Yea same. It also devolved into a weird discussion of resumes at age 25. Who are the 15 players better than him? Do people think he isn't starting in all star game or making an all NBA team this season? That would be surprising to me.
He will clearly start the all star game (especially with Wall being hurt), and while I think he will make an All NBA Team, I don't think it is a given. Only 6 guards make it and I would be incredibly surprised if Westbrook, Curry, and Harden aren't all clearly ahead of him (unless Curry's injury keeps him out for more than a couple of weeks). Lillard is having a better statistical season right now. Then you have guys like Booker, Beal, DeRozan, Oladipo, and Walker who all are capable of ending up with better stats and that doesn't even account for Wall and Paul who have both missed time but should have enough games to get considered (unlike a guy like Thomas who will miss too much of the season). I'd currently have him on the 2nd Team, but a lot can happen over the course of the season.
Walker is going to make it for a sub .500 Hornets team over Kyrie from a 60 win team with slightly worse stats? Booker has worse stats on a horrible team (and is no better than Kyrie on Defense. Obviously things could change in 55 more games, but at this times those two suggestions are quite comical. Booker may not even make the all-star game. This also just keeps getting stranger. You are saying he probably will start the all-star team and make an all-nba team, but still isn't a top 15? Then you list a bunch of players from significantly worse team, many of whom have similar or worse stats...
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
Not many people, especially around here, think that Kyrie isn't a top 15 player. It's a subjective list, but I think most agree that he should land around 15-20. I think the rare Kyrie haters are vastly outweighed by grateful Celtics fans. This team is a lot of fun to watch and he's our best player.
Yep, that's where I have him.
Can we go through this list of 15-19 players again who are definitely more superstar worthy than Kyrie? Because I am just not seeing it. He's got stats, flashiness, and [most importantly] is a winner. He's the whole package and I am very happy he is a Celtic.
I originally had Kyrie between the 17-19 range, but now I have him in the 15-16 range.
In no particular order, I have Lebron, Embiid, Cousins, Davis, Harden, Curry, Westbrook, Porzingis, Greek Freak, Kawhi, Aldridge, Durant, Aldridge, and Lilliard.
Now you can make the case Kyrie belongs over some of these guys, or other guys (like healthy Isaiah, or Towns, or Jokic, etc.) belong above Kyrie and in the Top-15, but that's how I have it.
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
Not many people, especially around here, think that Kyrie isn't a top 15 player. It's a subjective list, but I think most agree that he should land around 15-20. I think the rare Kyrie haters are vastly outweighed by grateful Celtics fans. This team is a lot of fun to watch and he's our best player.
Yep, that's where I have him.
Can we go through this list of 15-19 players again who are definitely more superstar worthy than Kyrie? Because I am just not seeing it. He's got stats, flashiness, and [most importantly] is a winner. He's the whole package and I am very happy he is a Celtic.
I originally had Kyrie between the 17-19 range, but now I have him in the 15-16 range.
In no particular order, I have Lebron, Embiid, Cousins, Davis, Harden, Curry, Westbrook, Porzingis, Greek Freak, Kawhi, Aldridge, Durant, Aldridge, and Lilliard.
Now you can make the case Kyrie belongs over some of these guys, or other guys (like healthy Isaiah, or Towns, or Jokic, etc.) belong above Kyrie and in the Top-15, but that's how I have it.
So you have Aldridge and his twin brother ahead of Kyrie. Ok.
From that list, Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, Curry, Giannis, Kawhi, Davis and Durant are ahead of Kyrie. You could throw in Cousins but he's a nut job. As for the others, right this very moment and this year, um, I'm not sure they are better. I will say this much. Give me Kyrie over those other guys in a seven game series.
Come playoffs, Kyrie's going to be dominant in a few of these playoffs series. Mark my word.
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
Not many people, especially around here, think that Kyrie isn't a top 15 player. It's a subjective list, but I think most agree that he should land around 15-20. I think the rare Kyrie haters are vastly outweighed by grateful Celtics fans. This team is a lot of fun to watch and he's our best player.
Yep, that's where I have him.
Can we go through this list of 15-19 players again who are definitely more superstar worthy than Kyrie? Because I am just not seeing it. He's got stats, flashiness, and [most importantly] is a winner. He's the whole package and I am very happy he is a Celtic.
I originally had Kyrie between the 17-19 range, but now I have him in the 15-16 range.
In no particular order, I have Lebron, Embiid, Cousins, Davis, Harden, Curry, Westbrook, Porzingis, Greek Freak, Kawhi, Aldridge, Durant, Aldridge, and Lilliard.
Now you can make the case Kyrie belongs over some of these guys, or other guys (like healthy Isaiah, or Towns, or Jokic, etc.) belong above Kyrie and in the Top-15, but that's how I have it.
So you have Aldridge and his twin brother ahead of Kyrie. Ok.
From that list, Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, Curry, Giannis, Kawhi, Davis and Durant are ahead of Kyrie. You could throw in Cousins but he's a nut job. As for the others, right this very moment and this year, um, I'm not sure they are better. I will say this much. Give me Kyrie over those other guys in a seven game series.
Come playoffs, Kyrie's going to be dominant in a few of these playoffs series. Mark my word.
Wow I'm an idiot. Put Aldridge on there twice :laugh: (Long day...)
I think the last part is true lol. Defenses have to be shuddering when there's 5 minutes left in a close game and Kyrie is out there :laugh:
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ac970f4238d9f020676d695eb81dcc04/tenor.gif?itemid=6221174)
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
Lol wow.
SMH
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ac970f4238d9f020676d695eb81dcc04/tenor.gif?itemid=6221174)
Clearly. Very frustrating to not be able to respond appropriately to such posts.
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/954/323/394.jpg)
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ac970f4238d9f020676d695eb81dcc04/tenor.gif?itemid=6221174)
TP
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Just a question, if Kyrie irving is not a top 15 player or a superstar....what do you guys view Isaiah Thomas as? He really only had one MVP type season...
because we all know what the rediculous takes are about. its fans who cant get over Isaiah Thomas.
Not many people, especially around here, think that Kyrie isn't a top 15 player. It's a subjective list, but I think most agree that he should land around 15-20. I think the rare Kyrie haters are vastly outweighed by grateful Celtics fans. This team is a lot of fun to watch and he's our best player.
Yep, that's where I have him.
Yea same. It also devolved into a weird discussion of resumes at age 25. Who are the 15 players better than him? Do people think he isn't starting in all star game or making an all NBA team this season? That would be surprising to me.
He will clearly start the all star game (especially with Wall being hurt), and while I think he will make an All NBA Team, I don't think it is a given. Only 6 guards make it and I would be incredibly surprised if Westbrook, Curry, and Harden aren't all clearly ahead of him (unless Curry's injury keeps him out for more than a couple of weeks). Lillard is having a better statistical season right now. Then you have guys like Booker, Beal, DeRozan, Oladipo, and Walker who all are capable of ending up with better stats and that doesn't even account for Wall and Paul who have both missed time but should have enough games to get considered (unlike a guy like Thomas who will miss too much of the season). I'd currently have him on the 2nd Team, but a lot can happen over the course of the season.
Walker is going to make it for a sub .500 Hornets team over Kyrie from a 60 win team with slightly worse stats? Booker has worse stats on a horrible team (and is no better than Kyrie on Defense. Obviously things could change in 55 more games, but at this times those two suggestions are quite comical. Booker may not even make the all-star game. This also just keeps getting stranger. You are saying he probably will start the all-star team and make an all-nba team, but still isn't a top 15? Then you list a bunch of players from significantly worse team, many of whom have similar or worse stats...
I think Paul George is a better player than Kyrie Irving, but I would expect Irving to make an All NBA Team, while I don't think George will based on position, team, opportunity, etc. I don't think Kawhi Leonard is going to make an All NBA Team this year because of all the games he has missed. Leonard is pretty clearly better than Irving though.
Making an All NBA Team is a reflection on your season (and sometimes position), not necessarily saying you are one of the 15 best players in the league. That said, the 15 best players in the league have multiple such team appearances when they are in the league for a sufficient amount of time. Irving is now in year 7 and will probably make just his 2nd All NBA Team (and the first time it was a 3rd Team). Right now, Irving is not a top 15 player in the league. A couple of seasons, that might very well be the case, but right now he isn't.
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ac970f4238d9f020676d695eb81dcc04/tenor.gif?itemid=6221174)
Clearly. Very frustrating to not be able to respond appropriately to such posts.
I actually just find it funny to be honest. (Not annoyed by it too much)
Sort of like playing the "villain" role or opposing side on here :laugh:
Like @tarheels, I hated the trade, but @tarheels definitely seems to either hate Kyrie with a passion or consider Isaiah Thomas his second son :laugh:
Don't think he's alone on here though. I do miss Isaiah as well.
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ac970f4238d9f020676d695eb81dcc04/tenor.gif?itemid=6221174)
TP
TP x2
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ac970f4238d9f020676d695eb81dcc04/tenor.gif?itemid=6221174)
Clearly. Very frustrating to not be able to respond appropriately to such posts.
I actually just find it funny to be honest. (Not annoyed by it too much)
Sort of like playing the "villain" role or opposing side on here :laugh:
Like @tarheels, I hated the trade, but @tarheels definitely seems to either hate Kyrie with a passion or consider Isaiah Thomas his second son :laugh:
Don't think he's alone on here though. I do miss Isaiah as well.
I guess I find 'playing the villain' something else, particularly when the posts are often inciting in nature.
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Regardless of how Kyrie has played in the past as a whole, both regular season and playoffs, isn't it fairly clear that his all around game is superstar worthy this yeah? I think so.
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He's definitely impressed me - all around.
He always seemingly was a good defender - but wasn't given the opportunity to display that in CLE.
His handles? Would make a Trucker's Convention jealous.
He's got a bright future in BOS and I can see us playing into June for the next several years.
Once he gets the FULL Boston Celtics Team (With Hayward) then we'll see an even better Kyrie.
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ac970f4238d9f020676d695eb81dcc04/tenor.gif?itemid=6221174)
Clearly. Very frustrating to not be able to respond appropriately to such posts.
I actually just find it funny to be honest. (Not annoyed by it too much)
Sort of like playing the "villain" role or opposing side on here :laugh:
Like @tarheels, I hated the trade, but @tarheels definitely seems to either hate Kyrie with a passion or consider Isaiah Thomas his second son :laugh:
Don't think he's alone on here though. I do miss Isaiah as well.
I guess I find 'playing the villain' something else, particularly when the posts are often inciting in nature.
I understand you don't like me, and that's fine. This post is simply a veiled insult -- you can get away with it per forum rules, but your intent in clear.
You're thinking is very black and white. If you'd like to have a meaningful convo, answer this for me -- in what ways may Kyrie be privileged in the NBA? Now, and throughout his career? I've had this convo with many people irl with a lot of substance.
It's clear you aren't even reading my posts, evidenced by this one and the last time you quoted me in another thread. I have a broken arm, so could u please quote that for me?
Since I'm sure you won't, I will. Here's evidence youre not even reading, just attacking:
Doubt it, lol
How quickly we forget a historic season...
Not really at all. I think we're well suited to defend him, especially if his slows him down. And it doesn't really matter about his offence, because he won't be able to stop anyone on our team from obliterating him. Is he going to guard Kyrie? JB? Tatum??
He and Kyrie will do an awful job of defending one another, as theyre both horrible on that end. I'm happy to point out all of Kyrie's mistakes for you during next game, if you remain doubtful.
Lol bro.
IT isn't even close to Kyrie as far as defense goes.
Bias aside, that shouldn't even be in question.
Cool dude.
I'm high on pain killers, but I'll bet you 10 TPs that i did not state that in the quoted post. Deal?
Remember... wherever you are wayupnorth, there you will be.
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ac970f4238d9f020676d695eb81dcc04/tenor.gif?itemid=6221174)
Clearly. Very frustrating to not be able to respond appropriately to such posts.
I actually just find it funny to be honest. (Not annoyed by it too much)
Sort of like playing the "villain" role or opposing side on here :laugh:
Like @tarheels, I hated the trade, but @tarheels definitely seems to either hate Kyrie with a passion or consider Isaiah Thomas his second son :laugh:
Don't think he's alone on here though. I do miss Isaiah as well.
I guess I find 'playing the villain' something else, particularly when the posts are often inciting in nature.
I understand you don't like me, and that's fine. This post is simply a veiled insult -- you can get away with it per forum rules, but your intent in clear.
You're thinking is very black and white. If you'd like to have a meaningful convo, answer this for me -- in what ways may Kyrie be privileged in the NBA? Now, and throughout his career? I've had this convo with many people irl with a lot of substance.
It's clear you aren't even reading my posts, evidenced by this one and the last time you quoted me in another thread. I have a broken arm, so could u please quote that for me?
Since I'm sure you won't, I will. Here's evidence youre not even reading, just attacking:
Doubt it, lol
How quickly we forget a historic season...
Not really at all. I think we're well suited to defend him, especially if his slows him down. And it doesn't really matter about his offence, because he won't be able to stop anyone on our team from obliterating him. Is he going to guard Kyrie? JB? Tatum??
He and Kyrie will do an awful job of defending one another, as theyre both horrible on that end. I'm happy to point out all of Kyrie's mistakes for you during next game, if you remain doubtful.
Lol bro.
IT isn't even close to Kyrie as far as defense goes.
Bias aside, that shouldn't even be in question.
Cool dude.
I'm high on pain killers, but I'll bet you 10 TPs that i did not state that in the quoted post. Deal?
Remember... wherever you are wayupnorth, there you will be.
I have absolutely noting against you personally, or even your posting in general. In fact, I quite enjoy it, except when you constantly hate on the best player this team has seen since Pierce/Garnett.
We all get it, you hate Kyrie for reasons that have nothing to do with basketball. You are free to have that opinion, but don't act surprised when you ruffle feathers talking constant crap about this team's best player.
Kyrie is this team's leader. He is a better fit with Brad and a better fit with the roster than Isaiah was. It sucks to see a gamer leave this team like IT, but it is about banners, not the best feel good story.
You deserve all the push back you get when you imply Kyrie and IT are on the same level defensively, or when you say he is the most privileged player in the league.
I for one could not be happier with the player that has helped lead us to 22-4, but if you prefer to root against him and try and down him at every turn, I cannot stop you. But I can respond.
Also, referring to Kyrie as being horrible at defense is something I think is plain at odds with the facts. That is not an attack to find that viewpoint unbelievable.
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LeBrons lost love.
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ac970f4238d9f020676d695eb81dcc04/tenor.gif?itemid=6221174)
Clearly. Very frustrating to not be able to respond appropriately to such posts.
I actually just find it funny to be honest. (Not annoyed by it too much)
Sort of like playing the "villain" role or opposing side on here :laugh:
Like @tarheels, I hated the trade, but @tarheels definitely seems to either hate Kyrie with a passion or consider Isaiah Thomas his second son :laugh:
Don't think he's alone on here though. I do miss Isaiah as well.
I guess I find 'playing the villain' something else, particularly when the posts are often inciting in nature.
I understand you don't like me, and that's fine. This post is simply a veiled insult -- you can get away with it per forum rules, but your intent in clear.
You're thinking is very black and white. If you'd like to have a meaningful convo, answer this for me -- in what ways may Kyrie be privileged in the NBA? Now, and throughout his career? I've had this convo with many people irl with a lot of substance.
It's clear you aren't even reading my posts, evidenced by this one and the last time you quoted me in another thread. I have a broken arm, so could u please quote that for me?
Since I'm sure you won't, I will. Here's evidence youre not even reading, just attacking:
Doubt it, lol
How quickly we forget a historic season...
Not really at all. I think we're well suited to defend him, especially if his slows him down. And it doesn't really matter about his offence, because he won't be able to stop anyone on our team from obliterating him. Is he going to guard Kyrie? JB? Tatum??
He and Kyrie will do an awful job of defending one another, as theyre both horrible on that end. I'm happy to point out all of Kyrie's mistakes for you during next game, if you remain doubtful.
Lol bro.
IT isn't even close to Kyrie as far as defense goes.
Bias aside, that shouldn't even be in question.
Cool dude.
I'm high on pain killers, but I'll bet you 10 TPs that i did not state that in the quoted post. Deal?
Remember... wherever you are wayupnorth, there you will be.
I have absolutely noting against you personally, or even your posting in general. In fact, I quite enjoy it, except when you constantly hate on the best player this team has seen since Pierce/Garnett.
We all get it, you hate Kyrie for reasons that have nothing to do with basketball. You are free to have that opinion, but don't act surprised when you ruffle feathers talking constant crap about this team's best player.
Kyrie is this team's leader. He is a better fit with Brad and a better fit with the roster than Isaiah was. It sucks to see a gamer leave this team like IT, but it is about banners, not the best feel good story.
You deserve all the push back you get when you imply Kyrie and IT are on the same level defensively, or when you say he is the most privileged player in the league.
I for one could not be happier with the player that has helped lead us to 22-4, but if you prefer to root against him and try and down him at every turn, I cannot stop you. But I can respond.
1. They have a ton to do with basketball. 2. "Implied"? I said they are both horriblr. You're clearly reaching b/c of your bias against me. 3. Your finding my comments "lol worthy" is an insult. It suggests you have a better or more objective understanding of ball. So please, if so....
Answer my question: in what way may he be privileged?
If you want to dodge it, your comments become baseless insults, and you just said that's not your intent. If you 'enjoy' it, then humor me, at the very least...
Ediit: Next post, can u cut out some of the previous uotes>? This is getting long and possibly annpoying for others, but i can barely type here.
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Regardless of how Kyrie has played in the past as a whole, both regular season and playoffs, isn't it fairly clear that his all around game is superstar worthy this yeah? I think so.
Sure, if your choose to treat the term very broadly. But then you're siluting it to include guys that are severely limited in several aspects of the game. Lillard then qualifies as a superstar too. But I dont see Lillard as that -- I consider a superstar someine that can carry a medicore team deep into the playoffs by himself. I dont think KI can, nor is there any evidence to suggest it -- in fact, just the opposite, nick. He's admittedly an incredibly player, better than I thought too. But I prefer to save that title for the very few elite. Heck, I'd say AD is even on the cusp, and Giannis is still budding... but just about there.
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He has been placed in the perfect situation to make 1st team all-NBA. It should be considered a failure if he does not. He's the most privileged player in the NBA, imo.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ac970f4238d9f020676d695eb81dcc04/tenor.gif?itemid=6221174)
Clearly. Very frustrating to not be able to respond appropriately to such posts.
I actually just find it funny to be honest. (Not annoyed by it too much)
Sort of like playing the "villain" role or opposing side on here :laugh:
Like @tarheels, I hated the trade, but @tarheels definitely seems to either hate Kyrie with a passion or consider Isaiah Thomas his second son :laugh:
Don't think he's alone on here though. I do miss Isaiah as well.
I guess I find 'playing the villain' something else, particularly when the posts are often inciting in nature.
I understand you don't like me, and that's fine. This post is simply a veiled insult -- you can get away with it per forum rules, but your intent in clear.
You're thinking is very black and white. If you'd like to have a meaningful convo, answer this for me -- in what ways may Kyrie be privileged in the NBA? Now, and throughout his career? I've had this convo with many people irl with a lot of substance.
It's clear you aren't even reading my posts, evidenced by this one and the last time you quoted me in another thread. I have a broken arm, so could u please quote that for me?
Since I'm sure you won't, I will. Here's evidence youre not even reading, just attacking:
Doubt it, lol
How quickly we forget a historic season...
Not really at all. I think we're well suited to defend him, especially if his slows him down. And it doesn't really matter about his offence, because he won't be able to stop anyone on our team from obliterating him. Is he going to guard Kyrie? JB? Tatum??
He and Kyrie will do an awful job of defending one another, as theyre both horrible on that end. I'm happy to point out all of Kyrie's mistakes for you during next game, if you remain doubtful.
Lol bro.
IT isn't even close to Kyrie as far as defense goes.
Bias aside, that shouldn't even be in question.
Cool dude.
I'm high on pain killers, but I'll bet you 10 TPs that i did not state that in the quoted post. Deal?
Remember... wherever you are wayupnorth, there you will be.
I have absolutely noting against you personally, or even your posting in general. In fact, I quite enjoy it, except when you constantly hate on the best player this team has seen since Pierce/Garnett.
We all get it, you hate Kyrie for reasons that have nothing to do with basketball. You are free to have that opinion, but don't act surprised when you ruffle feathers talking constant crap about this team's best player.
Kyrie is this team's leader. He is a better fit with Brad and a better fit with the roster than Isaiah was. It sucks to see a gamer leave this team like IT, but it is about banners, not the best feel good story.
You deserve all the push back you get when you imply Kyrie and IT are on the same level defensively, or when you say he is the most privileged player in the league.
I for one could not be happier with the player that has helped lead us to 22-4, but if you prefer to root against him and try and down him at every turn, I cannot stop you. But I can respond.
1. They have a ton to do with basketball. 2. "Implied"? You're reachi
ng b/c of your bias against me. 3. Your finding my comments "lol worthy" is an insult.
Answer my question...... in what way may he be privileged? He's undoubtedly tyhe most privileged in the NBA
What does being privileged have to do with being the best player on this team since KG/Paul?
What does it have to do with him playing excellent ball and being the best player on a team starting 22-4?
As I said, you have issues with Kyrie outside of ball, and referring to his "privilege" is an example of that.
I have not, and am not, attacking you personally. I did, was banned, and have learned something from that.
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I actually just find it funny to be honest. (Not annoyed by it too much)
Sort of like playing the "villain" role or opposing side on here :laugh:
Like @tarheels, I hated the trade, but @tarheels definitely seems to either hate Kyrie with a passion or consider Isaiah Thomas his second son :laugh:
Don't think he's alone on here though. I do miss Isaiah as well.
I guess I find 'playing the villain' something else, particularly when the posts are often inciting in nature.
[/quote]
I understand you don't like me, and that's fine. This post is simply a veiled insult -- you can get away with it per forum rules, but your intent in clear.
You're thinking is very black and white. If you'd like to have a meaningful convo, answer this for me -- in what ways may Kyrie be privileged in the NBA? Now, and throughout his career? I've had this convo with many people irl with a lot of substance.
It's clear you aren't even reading my posts, evidenced by this one and the last time you quoted me in another thread. I have a broken arm, so could u please quote that for me?
Since I'm sure you won't, I will. Here's evidence youre not even reading, just attacking:
Doubt it, lol
How quickly we forget a historic season...
Not really at all. I think we're well suited to defend him, especially if his slows him down. And it doesn't really matter about his offence, because he won't be able to stop anyone on our team from obliterating him. Is he going to guard Kyrie? JB? Tatum??
He and Kyrie will do an awful job of defending one another, as theyre both horrible on that end. I'm happy to point out all of Kyrie's mistakes for you during next game, if you remain doubtful.
Lol bro.
IT isn't even close to Kyrie as far as defense goes.
Bias aside, that shouldn't even be in question.
Cool dude.
I'm high on pain killers, but I'll bet you 10 TPs that i did not state that in the quoted post. Deal?
Remember... wherever you are wayupnorth, there you will be.
[/quote]
I have absolutely noting against you personally, or even your posting in general. In fact, I quite enjoy it, except when you constantly hate on the best player this team has seen since Pierce/Garnett.
We all get it, you hate Kyrie for reasons that have nothing to do with basketball. You are free to have that opinion, but don't act surprised when you ruffle feathers talking constant crap about this team's best player.
Kyrie is this team's leader. He is a better fit with Brad and a better fit with the roster than Isaiah was. It sucks to see a gamer leave this team like IT, but it is about banners, not the best feel good story.
You deserve all the push back you get when you imply Kyrie and IT are on the same level defensively, or when you say he is the most privileged player in the league.
I for one could not be happier with the player that has helped lead us to 22-4, but if you prefer to root against him and try and down him at every turn, I cannot stop you. But I can respond.
[/quote]
1. They have a ton to do with basketball. 2. "Implied"? You're reachi
ng b/c of your bias against me. 3. Your finding my comments "lol worthy" is an insult.
Answer my question...... in what way may he be privileged? He's undoubtedly tyhe most privileged in the NBA
[/quote]
What does being privileged have to do with being the best player on this team since KG/Paul?
What does it have to do with him playing excellent ball and being the best player on a team starting 22-4?
As I said, you have issues with Kyrie outside of ball, and referring to his "privilege" is an example of that.
I have not, and am not, attacking you personally. I did, was banned, and have learned something from that.
[/quote]
You responded to my privilege comment. I did not comment on anything else you're saying... nothing about how good he is since whoever. I don't care to discuss that, I already have for months.
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I actually just find it funny to be honest. (Not annoyed by it too much)
Sort of like playing the "villain" role or opposing side on here :laugh:
Like @tarheels, I hated the trade, but @tarheels definitely seems to either hate Kyrie with a passion or consider Isaiah Thomas his second son :laugh:
Don't think he's alone on here though. I do miss Isaiah as well.
I guess I find 'playing the villain' something else, particularly when the posts are often inciting in nature.
I understand you don't like me, and that's fine. This post is simply a veiled insult -- you can get away with it per forum rules, but your intent in clear.
You're thinking is very black and white. If you'd like to have a meaningful convo, answer this for me -- in what ways may Kyrie be privileged in the NBA? Now, and throughout his career? I've had this convo with many people irl with a lot of substance.
It's clear you aren't even reading my posts, evidenced by this one and the last time you quoted me in another thread. I have a broken arm, so could u please quote that for me?
Since I'm sure you won't, I will. Here's evidence youre not even reading, just attacking:
Doubt it, lol
How quickly we forget a historic season...
Not really at all. I think we're well suited to defend him, especially if his slows him down. And it doesn't really matter about his offence, because he won't be able to stop anyone on our team from obliterating him. Is he going to guard Kyrie? JB? Tatum??
He and Kyrie will do an awful job of defending one another, as theyre both horrible on that end. I'm happy to point out all of Kyrie's mistakes for you during next game, if you remain doubtful.
Lol bro.
IT isn't even close to Kyrie as far as defense goes.
Bias aside, that shouldn't even be in question.
Cool dude.
I'm high on pain killers, but I'll bet you 10 TPs that i did not state that in the quoted post. Deal?
Remember... wherever you are wayupnorth, there you will be.
[/quote]
I have absolutely noting against you personally, or even your posting in general. In fact, I quite enjoy it, except when you constantly hate on the best player this team has seen since Pierce/Garnett.
We all get it, you hate Kyrie for reasons that have nothing to do with basketball. You are free to have that opinion, but don't act surprised when you ruffle feathers talking constant crap about this team's best player.
Kyrie is this team's leader. He is a better fit with Brad and a better fit with the roster than Isaiah was. It sucks to see a gamer leave this team like IT, but it is about banners, not the best feel good story.
You deserve all the push back you get when you imply Kyrie and IT are on the same level defensively, or when you say he is the most privileged player in the league.
I for one could not be happier with the player that has helped lead us to 22-4, but if you prefer to root against him and try and down him at every turn, I cannot stop you. But I can respond.
[/quote]
1. They have a ton to do with basketball. 2. "Implied"? You're reachi
ng b/c of your bias against me. 3. Your finding my comments "lol worthy" is an insult.
Answer my question...... in what way may he be privileged? He's undoubtedly tyhe most privileged in the NBA
[/quote]
What does being privileged have to do with being the best player on this team since KG/Paul?
What does it have to do with him playing excellent ball and being the best player on a team starting 22-4?
As I said, you have issues with Kyrie outside of ball, and referring to his "privilege" is an example of that.
I have not, and am not, attacking you personally. I did, was banned, and have learned something from that.
[/quote]
You responded to my privilege comment. I did not comment on anything else you're saying... nothing about how good he is since whoever. I don't care to discuss that, I already have for months.
[/quote]
You said your criticism of him have to do with basketball. What in earth does "privilege" have to do with basketball?
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It has everything to do with basketball and the way he plays the game. If you'll entertain the comment, we can discuss it exclusively in terms of basketball, nothing else.
But I can't argue comments that I didn't make. Nor can I argue that I am biased against KI, when I have admitted it for months, and yet still remain open to objectively discussing him and his game
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It has everything to do with basketball and the way he plays the game. If you'll entertain the comment, we can discuss it exclusively in terms of basketball, nothing else..
OK, please explain to me how "privilege" has to do with Kyries talent on a basketball court.
Particularly when he has been playing nothing but incredibly unselfish team ball on both ends of the court.
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It has everything to do with basketball and the way he plays the game. If you'll entertain the comment, we can discuss it exclusively in terms of basketball, nothing else..
OK, please explain to me how "privilege" has to do with Kyries talent on a basketball court.
Particularly when he has been playing nothing but incredibly unselfish team ball on both ends of the court.
I find this idea somewhat preposterous, but I would love to hear what you have to say.
The way hand-checking rules have benefited guards has been well-documented here. This is the crux of my argument (if we stick to bball terms). Especially those that have a slight build and avoid contact at all costs. It not only allows smaller guys to get to the paint and finish, but opens up the entire court for them to shoot. S. Curry fits this mold too, though I'm less harsh on him b/c he's arguably the best shooter of all time and could prob be successful in a Ray Allen role,or even better. He also gets superstar calls b/c of it -- being in this situatios has catapulted his career and image as a megastar.
Tack on that he has been in arguably the 2 cushiest team environments possible in his career. He could've easily rotted away on a terrible team and been nothing but an empty stat guy that never made it deep in the playoffs. He doesn't dominate the game in enough ways to drag a mediocre team deep into the playoffs - another indicator of his limitations.
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It has everything to do with basketball and the way he plays the game. If you'll entertain the comment, we can discuss it exclusively in terms of basketball, nothing else..
OK, please explain to me how "privilege" has to do with Kyries talent on a basketball court.
Particularly when he has been playing nothing but incredibly unselfish team ball on both ends of the court.
I find this idea somewhat preposterous, but I would love to hear what you have to say.
The way hand-checking rules have benefited guards has been well-documented here. This is the crux of my argument (if we stick to bball terms). Especially those that have a slight build and avoid contact at all costs. It not only allows smaller guys to get to the paint and finish, but opens up the entire court for them to shoot. S. Curry fits this mold too, though I'm less harsh on him b/c he's arguably the best shooter of all time and could prob be successful in a Ray Allen role,or even better. He also gets superstar calls b/c of it -- being in this situatios has catapulted his career and image as a megastar.
Tack on that he has been in arguably the 2 cushiest team environments possible in his career. He could've easily rotted away on a terrible team and been nothing but an empty stat guy that never made it deep in the playoffs. He doesn't dominate the game in enough ways to drag a mediocre team deep into the playoffs - another indicator of his limitations.
What in that post could not be said about Isaiah?
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The basis of it -- he thrived off creating contact. He was a strong and physical, which would've allowed him to succeed in the grit and grind days.
And there's no way he found himself in the cushiest positions. Yes, he was given a great opp in Boston. But He carried a middle of the road team deep into the playpoffs - I'd consider that the oppsite.
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The basis of it -- he thrived off creating contact. He was a strong and physical, which would've allowed him to succeed in the grit and grind days.
I completely and utterly disagree. Kyrie has, at minimum, top 5 all time ball handling skills. That would get him by in any era.
Again, I can't disagree enough with the idea IT could have survived in the "grit and grind" days, but Kyrie couldn't statement.
In any era, Kyrie is better than IT, and it is not a slight against him.
Boston is cushy, Cleveland is cushy. That is two cushy teams, btw.
This is enough though. I think you angle is clear, and we won't do anything but clutter up the board if we continue.
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This ongoing thread, what is Kyrie actually is, is becoming funny ATP.
3/4 of the votes here say he is a superstar.
All coaches in the NBA, by their quotes, consider him a superstar.
Our father and holy ghost (DA & CBS) know he is a superstar.
on the other hand:
1/4 of the votes here, steadily trending down, say he is not as good.
Actually, just a few guys respond from this corner, without providing any good argument why.
Just some generalities or something from the past, that doesn't stand anymore.
Seems to me like we are having a non-convo. Just a few people that are angry (IT/?) or don't realize that it is OK to be wrong sometimes. Newsflash, I am too, we all are. IMO, it is much worse to not being able to change your mind and learn on the go. Afterall we are humans, the animals that can adapt quickly.
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This ongoing thread, what is Kyrie actually is, is becoming funny ATP.
3/4 of the votes here say he is a superstar.
All coaches in the NBA, by their quotes, consider him a superstar.
Our father and holy ghost (DA & CBS) know he is a superstar.
on the other hand:
1/4 of the votes here, steadily trending down, say he is not as good.
Actually, just a few guys respond from this corner, without providing any good argument why.
Just some generalities or something from the past, that doesn't stand anymore.
Seems to me like we are having a non-convo. Just a few people that are angry (IT/?) or don't realize that it is OK to be wrong sometimes. Newsflash, I am too, we all are. IMO, it is much worse to not being able to change your mind and learn on the go. Afterall we are humans, the animals that can adapt quickly.
Your post is very misinformed, and your perspective is very lazy. It's clear you've read none of the posts that served as thoughtful counter-arguments and convo about the definition of the term.
Please share exactly where I have been "wrong." Everyone seems to want to provide the most popular hot-takes without any support or discussion. Please read the posts you are arguing before your "lol"s if you intend to discuss with an open mind.
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This ongoing thread, what is Kyrie actually is, is becoming funny ATP.
3/4 of the votes here say he is a superstar.
All coaches in the NBA, by their quotes, consider him a superstar.
Our father and holy ghost (DA & CBS) know he is a superstar.
on the other hand:
1/4 of the votes here, steadily trending down, say he is not as good.
Actually, just a few guys respond from this corner, without providing any good argument why.
Just some generalities or something from the past, that doesn't stand anymore.
Seems to me like we are having a non-convo. Just a few people that are angry (IT/?) or don't realize that it is OK to be wrong sometimes. Newsflash, I am too, we all are. IMO, it is much worse to not being able to change your mind and learn on the go. Afterall we are humans, the animals that can adapt quickly.
Your post is very misinformed, and your perspective is very lazy. It's clear you've read none of the posts that served as thoughtful counter-arguments and convo about the definition of the term.
Please share exactly where I have been "wrong." Everyone seems to want to provide the most popular hot-takes without any support or discussion. Please read the posts you are arguing before your "lol"s if you intend to discuss with an open mind.
First of all, I am sorry you broke your leg.
I don't have the urge to go into some long-winded arguments to make a point. My perspective is different from yours, and that difference isn't laziness, it is my stance on the anti-Kyrie argumentation, which I find shallow and emotional.
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This ongoing thread, what is Kyrie actually is, is becoming funny ATP.
3/4 of the votes here say he is a superstar.
All coaches in the NBA, by their quotes, consider him a superstar.
Our father and holy ghost (DA & CBS) know he is a superstar.
on the other hand:
1/4 of the votes here, steadily trending down, say he is not as good.
Actually, just a few guys respond from this corner, without providing any good argument why.
Just some generalities or something from the past, that doesn't stand anymore.
Seems to me like we are having a non-convo. Just a few people that are angry (IT/?) or don't realize that it is OK to be wrong sometimes. Newsflash, I am too, we all are. IMO, it is much worse to not being able to change your mind and learn on the go. Afterall we are humans, the animals that can adapt quickly.
Your post is very misinformed, and your perspective is very lazy. It's clear you've read none of the posts that served as thoughtful counter-arguments and convo about the definition of the term.
Please share exactly where I have been "wrong." Everyone seems to want to provide the most popular hot-takes without any support or discussion. Please read the posts you are arguing before your "lol"s if you intend to discuss with an open mind.
First of all, I am sorry you broke your leg.
I don't have the urge to go into some long-winded arguments to make a point. My perspective is different from yours, and that difference isn't laziness, it is my stance on the anti-Kyrie argumentation, which I find shallow and emotional.
You're the one being shallow and emotional. After all, you accused others of being "angry", tried to paint those who don't agree with you as providing only "generalities" (which is exactly the nature of your own argument) and then cowardly said that you weren't going to back up your own assertions. It appears that you can't tolerate different perspectives at all.
There's plenty of good conversation in this thread. It's just not being generated from any of your posts.
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This ongoing thread, what is Kyrie actually is, is becoming funny ATP.
3/4 of the votes here say he is a superstar.
All coaches in the NBA, by their quotes, consider him a superstar.
Our father and holy ghost (DA & CBS) know he is a superstar.
on the other hand:
1/4 of the votes here, steadily trending down, say he is not as good.
Actually, just a few guys respond from this corner, without providing any good argument why.
Just some generalities or something from the past, that doesn't stand anymore.
Seems to me like we are having a non-convo. Just a few people that are angry (IT/?) or don't realize that it is OK to be wrong sometimes. Newsflash, I am too, we all are. IMO, it is much worse to not being able to change your mind and learn on the go. Afterall we are humans, the animals that can adapt quickly.
Your post is very misinformed, and your perspective is very lazy. It's clear you've read none of the posts that served as thoughtful counter-arguments and convo about the definition of the term.
Please share exactly where I have been "wrong." Everyone seems to want to provide the most popular hot-takes without any support or discussion. Please read the posts you are arguing before your "lol"s if you intend to discuss with an open mind.
First of all, I am sorry you broke your leg.
I don't have the urge to go into some long-winded arguments to make a point. My perspective is different from yours, and that difference isn't laziness, it is my stance on the anti-Kyrie argumentation, which I find shallow and emotional.
You're the one being shallow and emotional. After all, you accused others of being "angry", tried to paint those who don't agree with you as providing only "generalities" (which is exactly the nature of your own argument) and then cowardly said that you weren't going to back up your own assertions. It appears that you can't tolerate different perspectives at all.
There's plenty of good conversation in this thread. It's just not being generated from any of your posts.
It is not a generality to say 3/4 of the voters have viewed him as a Superstar - it is a fact, scroll up, see? Good.
It is not a generality that most coaches (players like KD too) say he is unguardable and amazing - it is a fact. Here are some quotes made within last month, I read 100s of similar in the last 3-4 years.
Rick Carlisle: “Kyrie Irving is as tough a cover as there is in the world. … Kyrie, in terms of creativity, is second to none.”
“I tell people all the time. If he’s not the hardest guy to guard he’s got to be in the top three. He’s phenomenal.” – #Warriors assistant coach Mike Brown
Pop says it’s the same Kyrie: “He’s a hell of a player. You think that’s going to change? Kyrie does what he does.
And it is not a generality that DA and CBS view him as such due to a whole string of superlatives they made when describing him (if you need links ill send it to you, but I presume that all Celtic fans saw these since it was a big thing). As a proof that DAs words are not empty, they are backed up by a mega-deal that included an all-star, a certain certainly unprotected lottery pick, a starter on most teams and basically a late 1st and another 2nd, going the other way just for him - those are the facts.
3/3
I am not a native English language speaker, but I know what the word fact means.
And Granath, I have felt this sometime now. You attack straightforward, going all in without "finesse or plan". You just try to make it personal, and I guess you want me to get to "play your game". Sorry man, I'm not joining in. I've got nothing but love and facts for you.
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Regardless of how Kyrie has played in the past as a whole, both regular season and playoffs, isn't it fairly clear that his all around game is superstar worthy this yeah? I think so.
Sure, if your choose to treat the term very broadly. But then you're siluting it to include guys that are severely limited in several aspects of the game. Lillard then qualifies as a superstar too. But I dont see Lillard as that -- I consider a superstar someine that can carry a medicore team deep into the playoffs by himself. I dont think KI can, nor is there any evidence to suggest it -- in fact, just the opposite, nick. He's admittedly an incredibly player, better than I thought too. But I prefer to save that title for the very few elite. Heck, I'd say AD is even on the cusp, and Giannis is still budding... but just about there.
Its a term without set definitions or guidelines. To each their own. Last year I thought IT played like a superstar and got the national recognition he deserved for playing that way. This year I think Kyrie is playing like a superstar and getting the national attention a superstar should get. I definitely Kyrie has risen his game a level, especially defensively, to now be considered a superstar and I think he will show it in the playoffs as he has the last two years when he was amazing in the post season.
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This ongoing thread, what is Kyrie actually is, is becoming funny ATP.
3/4 of the votes here say he is a superstar.
All coaches in the NBA, by their quotes, consider him a superstar.
Our father and holy ghost (DA & CBS) know he is a superstar.
on the other hand:
1/4 of the votes here, steadily trending down, say he is not as good.
Actually, just a few guys respond from this corner, without providing any good argument why.
Just some generalities or something from the past, that doesn't stand anymore.
Seems to me like we are having a non-convo. Just a few people that are angry (IT/?) or don't realize that it is OK to be wrong sometimes. Newsflash, I am too, we all are. IMO, it is much worse to not being able to change your mind and learn on the go. Afterall we are humans, the animals that can adapt quickly.
Idk man. I'm actually enjoying the debates on here :laugh:
My Lakers friend (the "debating with friend" friend on thread title) is also enjoying reading these comments lol
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after the last couple of games, Kyrie is now up to
24ppg and 4.8APG on 49.6% shooting from the field and 38.8% shooting from 3. in 32mpg
thats some crazy efficiency. in the last 10games he is averaging 28.9 ppg on 56% shooting.
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It’s too bad the meathead element that sees things as all or nothing had to derail a pretty good thread. Fair warning: those who can’t engage in nuanced debate or discussion without labels / attacks should find a new place to discuss the Celts.
Locked.