Investigation launched into death of Celtics fan

[dark_lord]

overall i dont like cops, but i am smart enough to listen and obey to their request.  if i am treated unfairly you deal with it after the incident (court, attorneys, etc), not during it.

the kid was an idiot for drinking in public, not following the request of the officer, then fleeing.

the cops are not responsible in this case with what info has been released thus far.

I think we all know why that is.  It's no secret that Dark Lord's people have constantly been abused by the cops.

now thats a TP!!!!!  lol

[nickagneta]

TP, right on.  Saying everyone who flees in a crowd of thousands should "for sure" be chased down and restrained is a bit naive.

Didn't you just get on my case for not properly citing facts?  This kid was in a reported crowd of four, not thousands.  He was the only one reported to be running.  Where do you get "flees in a crowd of thousands" from?

It is frightening that someone would want the cops to chase down and subdue anyone who ever runs from their presence, no matter what the circumstance. In this case, him fleeing actually resolved the imminent concern, there were thousands left to focus on after he was gone.  If you enjoy that sort of totalitarian society I would suggest you move somewhere like Singapore.

Did you read the post you quoted?  No?  I didn't think so.

think if you flee from the cops, you should be chased.  The police may use discretion in deciding whether to arrest you after that, but they should certainly chase you, assuming that such is reasonably possible, and there isn't another situation that needs their immediate attention.

I get very frustrated responding to people's arguments who mischaracterize what I've written.  I fail to see what is "totalitarian" about expecting people to not resist arrest when approached by cops, but obviously we're approaching this from completely different mindsets.

I will say that there's a reason that every jurisdiction in the United States allows prosecutors to bring up the fact that a suspect fled from cops as an inference of guilt.

I agree with you he shouldn't have run, that is never a good idea as many have said.  My reference to the crowd had to do with the fact that there were thousands celebrating after the game.  This kid was in a group of 4, were they on a deserted street with nobody else around and police just happened down this same wayward path and spotted them?  Or were they relatively close to and connected with the crowd of revelers celebrating the championship?

You are right that until more facts come in, we cannot say with any certainty that the police did anything in error.  However, neither can we say they didn't.  Everyone seems to want to support the police automatically because this kid made some obvious errors in judgment.  But this incident didn't occur in a vacuum, there is some history here we have to draw on, to at least wonder about, even if it is premature to say that something did in fact happen negligently.  You are acting like until we know everything, it is impossible to draw some inferences on what might have happened based on historical precedent.  

I have personally witnessed celebratory crowd control as I have shared, as well as some arrests outside this arena, and in these cases I observed the police acting too aggressively in the way they responded, regardless of what they were responding to.  It is not some shot in the dark to think it very possible, without knowing for sure, that the police acted in a very aggressive manner.  We use past behavior all the time in society as a guide in judging a current situation.  It doesn't automatically make it so, but it is reasonable to at least think it possible that the BPD was very aggressive in the way they handled this based on how they have handled previous situations.  In fact, I would say, knowing what we do know about their past behavior, it is more incredulous that they handled this perfectly, treating the kid gently and giving him immediate medical care. They are human also, their adrenaline gets pumping, when someone runs, they take it very personally and are not exactly acting like trained EMTs once they get their hands on someone who has run from them.

I think the incident happened on a street on the back side of Fenway Park. Nowhere near where the trouble was occuring that night. But there are a lot of clubs down there and the police presence is still fairly strong and they never allow anyone who might look like a club-goer to walk outside with drinks. Big no-no in that area.

Just ask the bouncers at the clubs or bars. Drinks on any street other than an opened Yawkey Way during a Sox game is never, ever, ever allowed.

[winsomme]

i mean, unless you are suggesting that every kid suspected of drinking in public that dashes is chased down and arrested, i think you would agree that there is a great deal of discretion involved in handling these situations.....

I think if you flee from the cops, you should be chased.  The police may use discretion in deciding whether to arrest you after that, but they should certainly chase you, assuming that such is reasonably possible, and there isn't another situation that needs their immediate attention.

I don't think all kids with open containers should be detained or arrested.  However, once you flee from the cops after they approach you, you're asking for trouble.

like i said "asking for trouble" and actually "getting trouble" are different things.....

and i have been in the situation to know that it could have gone down differently.....i have enough knucklehead friends to know that bad decisions are made ALL the time. and the police have chosen to acknowledge the stupid behavior for what it was.....heck, many of them have been there...and they can usually tell when there is a public threat or not...

that is why i think it was avoidable.

TP, right on.  Saying everyone who flees in a crowd of thousands should "for sure" be chased down and restrained is a bit naive.  What if they did not chase him and left him to commit another crime later that night?  Like what, having an open container somewhere else in public?  The issue is level of threat and they themselves said they approached only because of a suspicion of an open container, not because of any other threat they posed.  Chasing down a kid with a beer amongst thousands of revelers, to me, is a bit over the top.  It is frightening that someone would want the cops to chase down and subdue anyone who ever runs from their presence, no matter what the circumstance. In this case, him fleeing actually resolved the imminent concern, there were thousands left to focus on after he was gone.  If you enjoy that sort of totalitarian society I would suggest you move somewhere like Singapore.

i'm not crazy about getting a TP for this discussion, and would rather it not be about that. but i appreciate you recognizing where i am coming from. it just really bothers me that someone died that night in the celebration and i can't imagine what his family must be going through. and  at this point, it just sounds to me like it could have been avoided.

maybe i'm wrong. but either way, it is just terribly sad.

[KJ33]

This is from the Globe, sounds a bit different than some earlier "facts" as reported by police.  While his friends may not be telling the truth, this sounds a bit more plausible than what was reported earlier, that it was the police who did the confronting because of an open container and had to chase the kid down:

"The commissioner tried to meet with Woodman's family June 18 but was turned away at the hospital by staff who said the family didn't wish to see him, according to Driscoll.

Cathy Woodman said she was alone with her son, who was on life support with scrapes that looked like road burns all over his face, and felt too overwhelmed to meet with Davis.

David Woodman, who had been a history major at Emmanuel College and planned to return in the fall after taking a semester off, was walking from a bar with friends after the game when they passed about 10 or 12 uniformed officers at the corner of the Fenway and Brookline Avenue, according to two friends who spoke on the condition they not be named.

According to one of the friends, as Woodman passed the officers, he said, "Wow, it seems like there's a lot of crime on this corner."
Officers grabbed Woodman, who was carrying a plastic cup of beer, and as they struggled to handcuff him pushed him face down onto the ground, according to Woodman's friend.

"He wasn't being a punk or anything like that," said the friend. "I don't understand why the officers used such brute force to arrest him."
Woodman's friends said an officer yelled at them to leave, saying they would be arrested if they didn't.

One of the friends said he returned a few minutes later but was ordered to leave or face arrest. "They were all just around him and he was on the ground and not moving," the friend said. "I didn't see them giving him CPR."

[Roy Hobbs]

Apparently, the arrest warrant was related to his alleged vandalism of several cars around Northeastern.  He failed to appear for his court date.

[cooleststan]

Is that Roy Hobbs they attorney speaking?

I have to agree with Winsomme, Unless he is putting someone else in danger on a night like that dump it out and move on.

What was his level of intoxication?  Was he a risk to himself or others?  How was he conducting himself?  What were the other circumstances in the area that night?

These are facts that need to be known to determine whether an arrest was appropriate.  From the very little I've heard on this subject, the kid had a preexisting heart condition, which in all likelihood led to his cardiac arrest.  Sad, to be sure, but I think labeling the officers' conduct as "sickening" is inappropriate until such time as more facts are known.

I understand that people hate the police.  However, I think it's wrong to imply some sort of misconduct without having a factual basis for doing so.  What you and winsomme are doing is blaming the cops for enforcing the law.  Without more facts, I'm not going to condemn the officers for doing their job.

who said anything about hating the police? now who's jumping to conclusions....

as for "enforcing the law", that is a total copout....the situation was avoidable. that's what makes it "sickening" for me...

If he had a cardiac arrest due to a heart condition, its his own fault that he was drinking, he should know better than to put his life on the line like that.
The police were just doing their job, what, do you actually expect them to not chase if someone runs away? If he had nothing to hide, he wouldn't have ran. They couldn't assume that he was just some 20 year old having a good time, that would be "jumping to conclusions" wouldn't it?
If some drug dealer or child molestor was let go because the cops let him run, how would you feel?

[Section 87]

Yes, the "facts" previously presented were just the police side of the story. Other witnesses' stories are now seeing daylight. Several witnesses say that he did not try to run away; he was singled out for making a sarcastic remark. A witness says that the man was thrown face down on the pavement, and was cuffed behind his back with a policeman's boot pressing down on his back. And the man stopped breathing. Witnesses who were watching the incident indicate that an officer ordered them to leave, under threat of arrest. If true, that's a very important point.

There is no cause of death confimed yet. Let's not assume cardiac arrest (preliminary autopsy result says it was not a heart attack), and let's not blame anyone, police or victim, until there's some kind of unbiased story. Police internal investigations are not unbiased. Let's at least wait for a coroner's report.

I don't think we should simply take the police officers' story as "fact." Sadly, it's all too common for officers to lie. I know this from a small amount of personal experience, and a large amount of observation. I was in the crowd near the Garden after the game, and I saw Boston police officers beating people with batons for no reason that I could discern. One woman on Union St was holding up her phone for pictures. A group of officers walked by, and one of them cracked her on the wrist with a baton, making her drop the phone. No warning, not a word, just a quick blow to an innocent bystander. That's my eyewitness testimony.

[nickagneta]

I've gotta say the account the nameless friends gave seem extremely different from the police account, however, if I was a friend of the victim and it went down exactly as they are portraying, I wouldn't be so hesitant to give out my name. I would stand by my word and the memory of my dead friend.

So perhaps the truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle.

Even given the friends' account, the cops may have been being jerks to a wise-ass but it doesn't sound like they did anything that was technically wrong. If the end result is that the friends' story is 100% accurate, which I tend to doubt is 100% accurate though I am sure there is some truth to what they said, the real evidence of wrongdoing will be coming from the coroner's report and the investigation as to just how accurate the reports are as to when he was started to be given CPR and for how long.  

[CDawg834]

David Woodman, who had been a history major at Emmanuel College and planned to return in the fall after taking a semester off

Now there are a lot of people out there who have legitimate reasons to take a semester off (financial reasons, family reasons, etc.) but often "taking a semester off" is the PC way of saying got kicked out/flunked out.  This kid doesn't sound like a real winner.

We don't yet know the facts of what actually caused his death.  But I am growing tired of people who don't take accountability for their own actions.  This kid purposely made a comment in front of the police officers with an open container.  If he didn't make a comment they may have let him go.  He then ran (due to a warrant out for his arrest from previous crimes) when confronted.  If he didn't have a warrant he may not have felt the need to run and may have just been told to dump the drink then be sent on his way.

I am sure people will twist my words around, so let me clarify, I am NOT saying he deserved what happened to him.  All I am saying is instead of saying "The cops killed him!" let's think about how he got in that situation in the first place: his own poor choices.  He had some responsibility in this,in addition to the arresting officers.  As with most cases like this, the truth lies somewhere in the middle...

Hopefully the investigation and cause of death tell us more.

[nickagneta]

Just that people know it is standard operating procedure when arresting an intoxicated person to call for an ambulance for transport due to the medical conditions that could arise. If it went down exactly as Woodman's friends say it did, and it very well could have, the police officers could have cuffed him and left him on the ground awaiting transport.

If immediately after cuffing him and turning away to make the call, Woodman had his episode that caused him to stop breathing it is possible that the officers didn't notice he had stopped breathing for a minute or more before attempting to revive him.

In which case, it is possible that the Police did absolutely nothing wrong and everything by the book correct.

It's an unfortunate incident, but even with the accounts that are coming out, it is very, very likely, no matter how much people might want it to be otherwise, that the police had nothing to do with this young man dying.

[NicaraguanFan]

It is pretty sad that a  person die during  a celebration, but police officers have to do what they have to do. At this point, we don't even know if police officers asked him to dump his beer/alcohol. Blame police officers for this is unfair, but I think nobody in this board is doing such thing.

On the other hand, not all the time they enforce the law... I  don't remember anyone asking players/staff/owners  to dump their cigars when they lit them up.

NF.

I don't remember there being any correlation between excession cigar smoking and unruly behavior.  Also, I'm going to assume that if a law enforcement officer were to approach someone who lit up a victory cigar at The Garden, the person would've had enough sense to put it out, and not try to escape.

I was just trying to point out that in things like these officers can manage things in different ways.   Anyway at this point police officers of this case are innocents until other thing is proved.  They were doing what they were asking for to do.   

NF.

[TripleOT]

Just that people know it is standard operating procedure when arresting an intoxicated person to call for an ambulance for transport due to the medical conditions that could arise. If it went down exactly as Woodman's friends say it did, and it very well could have, the police officers could have cuffed him and left him on the ground awaiting transport.

If immediately after cuffing him and turning away to make the call, Woodman had his episode that caused him to stop breathing it is possible that the officers didn't notice he had stopped breathing for a minute or more before attempting to revive him.

In which case, it is possible that the Police did absolutely nothing wrong and everything by the book correct.

It's an unfortunate incident, but even with the accounts that are coming out, it is very, very likely, no matter how much people might want it to be otherwise, that the police had nothing to do with this young man dying.

You obviously are biased toward the police, and have little credibility to discuss this topic rationally.  From what I just read in today's Globe, the police and the civilian witnesses are telling very different stories. It looks to me like the kid made a joke about the large police presence on the corner as they walked by, and the police went off on him. 

The police obviously had SOMETHING to do with him dying, regardless of his medical history.  I just hope the truth is allowed to come out.   

[Roy Hobbs]

I've gotta say the account the nameless friends gave seem extremely different from the police account, however, if I was a friend of the victim and it went down exactly as they are portraying, I wouldn't be so hesitant to give out my name. I would stand by my word and the memory of my dead friend.

So perhaps the truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle.

Even given the friends' account, the cops may have been being jerks to a wise-ass but it doesn't sound like they did anything that was technically wrong. If the end result is that the friends' story is 100% accurate, which I tend to doubt is 100% accurate though I am sure there is some truth to what they said, the real evidence of wrongdoing will be coming from the coroner's report and the investigation as to just how accurate the reports are as to when he was started to be given CPR and for how long.  

I pretty much agree, nick.  These "multiple witness accounts" cited above are the account of one anonymous friend of the victim.   I'm not sure that that's completely reliable, and if I'm determining the veracity of the statements, I'd tend to go with the one that is an open public record, rather than the statements of an interested attorney and a witness hiding behind a cloak of anonymity.

[TripleOT]

Here's another story of police ganging up on a "suspect" which resulted in a suspect's death, this time a mentally challenged man in neighboring Rhode Island:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/WWARWICK_DEATH_30_06-30-08_N8AMPO1_v157.411489a.html

One has to wonder if allowing a gang of police officers to beat on a "suspect" in order to subdue him is the right approach, especially if the suspect is not threatening the police or anyone else.  Maybe some police officers need a little more common sense and people skills, and a little less eagerness to use barons and engage in "pack mentality."

[Roy Hobbs]

Here's another story of police ganging up on a "suspect" which resulted in a suspect's death, this time a mentally challenged man in neighboring Rhode Island:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/WWARWICK_DEATH_30_06-30-08_N8AMPO1_v157.411489a.html

One has nothing to do with the other.