The Big Fundamental or Ticket

[Moranis]

There are countless stories about how big an **** KG was.  I thought that was common knowledge.  He specifically targeted young players and was relentless if you took it.  He never went after veterans and the minute anyone stood up to him, he shrunk away.  He is basically the classic definition of a fake tough guy and a bully.  He couldn't get along with anyone until Pierce. 

Heck he even reportedly suckered punched Wally after a practice in 2000 (think Draymond on Poole but without video evidence).

Those plethora or stories is why no one wanted to play with KG.  And KG was not a closer which is why his playoff record before Boston was 17-30 and why he was 2-8 in playoff series (only winning when Cassell and Spreewell were there to close out games).  The Wolves didn't even make the playoffs the 3 seasons before KG was traded to Boston with what was supposed to be a MVP level player. It is why the Wolves won 50 games just 4 times with him.  The problem in Minnesota was Garnett wasn't a good teammate, wasn't a closer, and wasn't a guy that was good enough to carry a team.

None of that is Duncan.  Sure Duncan had Pop, but Pop was 17-47 as a coach before Duncan and has been pretty awful since Duncan.  Seems more like Duncan made Pop than the other way around.  And it isn't like Flip Saunders was a bad coach (neither is Dwayne Casey). 

[Who]

Lots of guys wanted to play with KG, they just did not want to live in Minnesota to do it.

[Moranis]

Lots of guys wanted to play with KG, they just did not want to live in Minnesota to do it.

I'm sure there are some players that is true of, but basically no free agents at all ever signed there.  That really hasn't been the case for basically anywhere else and certainly not with a guy as good as KG.  KG was literally punching teammates and forcing anyone that could have come close to his talent out the door. 

Btw, here is Woj talking about KG the bully, you know when he called Charlie Villanueva a cancer patient (or at least that is what Charlie said, of course KG's statement on what he said makes no sense).  https://news.yahoo.com/news/garnetts-bully-act-goes-too-181700093--nba.html

Lot's of video evidence on this one.  https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/1/14/7539949/kevin-garnett-fight-sad-bully

And another.  https://bleacherreport.com/articles/97395-kevin-garnett-the-big-ticket-becomes-the-big-bully

I really did think this stuff was all common knowledge.

[gouki88]

Lots of guys wanted to play with KG, they just did not want to live in Minnesota to do it.

I'm sure there are some players that is true of, but basically no free agents at all ever signed there.  That really hasn't been the case for basically anywhere else and certainly not with a guy as good as KG.  KG was literally punching teammates and forcing anyone that could have come close to his talent out the door. 

Btw, here is Woj talking about KG the bully, you know when he called Charlie Villanueva a cancer patient (or at least that is what Charlie said, of course KG's statement on what he said makes no sense).  https://news.yahoo.com/news/garnetts-bully-act-goes-too-181700093--nba.html

Lot's of video evidence on this one.  https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/1/14/7539949/kevin-garnett-fight-sad-bully

And another.  https://bleacherreport.com/articles/97395-kevin-garnett-the-big-ticket-becomes-the-big-bully

I really did think this stuff was all common knowledge.

None of this is any proof of your nonsensical statement that "a big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality". As much as you might try and shift the goalposts, knowing the ridiculousness of that claim, it is too late to take it back

[Kernewek]

Duncan and it’s not close.

Personally, I think KG is vastly over rated when it comes to the greatest Power Fowards of all time conversations. Duncan, Malone, Nowitzki, and Barkley are all much better, imo.

This is the complete opposite of what my take is. KG is the most underrated player of the last 25 years, and is every bit as good as Duncan & Malone, and significantly better than Dirk or Chuck.

This is an interesting take. Care to elaborate?

In terms of being underrated, I think there's a whole essay that could be written (and has by people like Thinking Basketball). I think he was as good a defender as any player in the modern era, that I think gets a bit overlooked because his defensive counting stats weren't as crazy as some other defensive stalwarts like Hakeem, Dikembe or Ben Wallace. However, I think his impact on that end was just as significant as any player since Bill Russell. He had the size to protect the interior as well as the agility to defend the perimeter, all whilst using his IQ to cover every aspect of that half of the floor. Even as broken down old man in his final season, when he was on the floor Minny had the =2nd best defence in the competition vs the 28th when he was off it. His awareness, ball tracking, and ability to act upon that freakish awareness with his physical tools made him one of the most impactful defensive forces ever.

I think his offence is often overlooked too because of how much help he did not have. He is the ultimate example of an offensive arsenal that lifts those around him. Elite passing, super active, and wanted to get others going. However, he gets criticised for that because the others he was lifting up were Latrell Sprewell and Sam Cassell (who was an All-Star alongside KG) in the twilights of their careers.

I think if he had been put in the position of Duncan or Malone (good to elite supporting casts, good to elite coaching, stability, lack of corruption, etc.) I think he would have won multiple MVPs and multiple championships (definitely in San Antonio). Even if he'd been drafted to Dallas and been given the support Dirk did, his career would have been completely different. I think his prime gets overlooked because people forget how much of a complete and utter basket-case Minny was during KG's time there.

There's more to be said, but I am sadly lacking for time and eloquence at the moment

Ok. I was more interested in the comparisons with Dirk and Chuck though.

[Moranis]

Lots of guys wanted to play with KG, they just did not want to live in Minnesota to do it.

I'm sure there are some players that is true of, but basically no free agents at all ever signed there.  That really hasn't been the case for basically anywhere else and certainly not with a guy as good as KG.  KG was literally punching teammates and forcing anyone that could have come close to his talent out the door. 

Btw, here is Woj talking about KG the bully, you know when he called Charlie Villanueva a cancer patient (or at least that is what Charlie said, of course KG's statement on what he said makes no sense).  https://news.yahoo.com/news/garnetts-bully-act-goes-too-181700093--nba.html

Lot's of video evidence on this one.  https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/1/14/7539949/kevin-garnett-fight-sad-bully

And another.  https://bleacherreport.com/articles/97395-kevin-garnett-the-big-ticket-becomes-the-big-bully

I really did think this stuff was all common knowledge.

None of this is any proof of your nonsensical statement that "a big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality". As much as you might try and shift the goalposts, knowing the ridiculousness of that claim, it is too late to take it back

At least quote the fully sentence before you accuse me of moving goal posts.  "A big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality that and the simple fact that Garnett was not a #1. " 

Garnett was never a #1.  He was never a guy that could close out and finish games.  The only playoff success he ever had was when he played with closers and he rarely played with closers in part because the closers that passed through the team didn't want to stick around to play with KG (for various reasons).  It doesn't help when you sucker punch your teammates because they dare to stand up to you in practice. 

KG is an all time great player, but he couldn't close games and he couldn't keep his teammates around, which is why the Wolves didn't win more with him.  The Wolves were a revolving door during KG's tenure as they just couldn't keep his teammates there and couldn't lure anyone else there to play with him.  KG has to take a fair amount of that blame. 

That is why you get quotes like this about

"Just because someone doesn't play with the same fire as KG, it doesn't mean they're soft," Billups says. "It also doesn't mean they don't care, but in KG's raving, crazy mind, that's how he sees it. If he sees something one time, that's what he believes in, no matter what. That's not always great for a leader, I admit that, but that's who he is."

"Kevin destroyed him," Rivers says. "It was mean-spirited."

"Patrick would miss a shot, and he'd just torture him," Powe says. "Kevin wasn't going to forgive him. He'd talk crazy to him. We told Patrick, 'Don't let him get under your skin,' but it was too late."

"When Kevin came through those doors on game day, he was angry," says Celtics guard Avery Bradley, who played with Garnett for three seasons. "We couldn't laugh, talk, listen to music. We'd all hide in the training room or the bathroom -- wherever KG wasn't."

And that is from teammates or his own coaches, not opposing players and they are going on the record with that.

[Goldstar88]

Lots of guys wanted to play with KG, they just did not want to live in Minnesota to do it.

I'm sure there are some players that is true of, but basically no free agents at all ever signed there.  That really hasn't been the case for basically anywhere else and certainly not with a guy as good as KG.  KG was literally punching teammates and forcing anyone that could have come close to his talent out the door. 

Btw, here is Woj talking about KG the bully, you know when he called Charlie Villanueva a cancer patient (or at least that is what Charlie said, of course KG's statement on what he said makes no sense).  https://news.yahoo.com/news/garnetts-bully-act-goes-too-181700093--nba.html

Lot's of video evidence on this one.  https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/1/14/7539949/kevin-garnett-fight-sad-bully

And another.  https://bleacherreport.com/articles/97395-kevin-garnett-the-big-ticket-becomes-the-big-bully

I really did think this stuff was all common knowledge.

None of this is any proof of your nonsensical statement that "a big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality". As much as you might try and shift the goalposts, knowing the ridiculousness of that claim, it is too late to take it back

At least quote the fully sentence before you accuse me of moving goal posts.  "A big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality that and the simple fact that Garnett was not a #1. " 

Garnett was never a #1.  He was never a guy that could close out and finish games.  The only playoff success he ever had was when he played with closers and he rarely played with closers in part because the closers that passed through the team didn't want to stick around to play with KG (for various reasons).  It doesn't help when you sucker punch your teammates because they dare to stand up to you in practice. 

KG is an all time great player, but he couldn't close games and he couldn't keep his teammates around, which is why the Wolves didn't win more with him.  The Wolves were a revolving door during KG's tenure as they just couldn't keep his teammates there and couldn't lure anyone else there to play with him.  KG has to take a fair amount of that blame. 

That is why you get quotes like this about

"Just because someone doesn't play with the same fire as KG, it doesn't mean they're soft," Billups says. "It also doesn't mean they don't care, but in KG's raving, crazy mind, that's how he sees it. If he sees something one time, that's what he believes in, no matter what. That's not always great for a leader, I admit that, but that's who he is."

"Kevin destroyed him," Rivers says. "It was mean-spirited."

"Patrick would miss a shot, and he'd just torture him," Powe says. "Kevin wasn't going to forgive him. He'd talk crazy to him. We told Patrick, 'Don't let him get under your skin,' but it was too late."

"When Kevin came through those doors on game day, he was angry," says Celtics guard Avery Bradley, who played with Garnett for three seasons. "We couldn't laugh, talk, listen to music. We'd all hide in the training room or the bathroom -- wherever KG wasn't."

And that is from teammates or his own coaches, not opposing players and they are going on the record with that.

We told Patrick, 'Don't let him get under your skin,' but it was too late." Twenty-six games into his Celtics career, on Feb. 19, 2009, Boston traded O'Bryant, who today maintains he learned a lot from Garnett and doesn't remember being bullied, to Toronto for a 2014 second-round pick. He would play just 24 more games in his NBA career.

Some of these excerpts from the article are just ridiculous. Honestly expected better from Jackie. Making it sound like Garnett getting under his skin was the reason for the trade and essentially ruining his career as he only played 24 games in the league. Then later stating that Patrick maintains that he learned a lot from Garnett and doesn’t remember being bullied.

Pretty amazing that such a terrible teammate was runner up for the “Teammate of the year award”. How do you explain that one. Did he bully the other players into voting for him?   

[Somebody]

You'd think that people who saw KG be the main driving force for one of the best teams in our club's history would have an idea of how good KG was

The man had very similar career value to Duncan in circumstances that was perfect for the latter and disastrous for the former (e.g. getting drafted by a team whose coach brainwashed him to never take threes, broken club management, the game shaming him for playing like a wing because he was seven feet tall, playing in an era where NBA offences were the most stagnant in league history, etc), how would Duncan lap KG in the modern game?

[Somebody]

Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.

Except for passing and defence, yes

Acting like 41% on low volume and the jab step clunker/janky C&S banker is close to what KG did (45-46% via stepbacks, turnarounds on either shoulder, dribble pullups, quick C&S pull after popping, etc on high volume) is incredible.

[Somebody]

I voted before I read the post - my bad!

I went for Timmy but I would have voted for KG in today's league over Timmy. Timmy's game doesn't translate as well to today's league while KG's translates better than before.

Yeah, in today's game it is easily KG for me. He would absolutely have developed a 3PT game if drafted today, and we're seeing how valuable young bigs with ball-handling skills are (Banchero, Barnes, Mobley).

KG would be Giannis-like in today's game

I don’t think he would be.  In his era, KG had the skillset to dominate inside.  He had the skill set to add a couple of feet to his game.  He stubbornly refused to do either, for reasons I don’t understand.

Similarly, I don’t think the modern game would affect Duncan much.  He’d have more space to operate, but he’d be equally dominate offensively and defensively.

If I wanted to draft a guy to play PF in the modern era, my first choice would be Larry Bird.  Second, Lebron.  After that, I’d be tempted to take Karl Malone, because I think he’d be unstoppable with the increased spacing, no hand-checking and lack of rim protection. Then Duncan, then probably KG.

Garnett didn't shoot threes because of the era he played in. People were hounding him for not playing like a 'true seven footer' despite their fathers being absolutely gobsmacked by the likes of Bob McAdoo, while Flip Saunders (who influenced him greatly) was a coach who despised threes in favour of long twos. While other ATG PFs were blessed with coaches and clubs way ahead of their time, Garnett had a coach who was one of the great paradoxes in NBA history (Saunders' understanding of ball movement and spacing principles were fairly modern, it was his obsession with midrange shots that was bizarre) and a club that did not have the vision to shield him from the backwards belief of how offence should be played in that era.

Btw I'd play Karl, KG and Duncan at centre in the modern game.

[Kernewek]

Duncan. Not close. 

Also, Duncan hit 41% from 16 feet to the 3 point line in his career.  I think he'd have extended that range out to 3 today.  KG would be better at it, but Duncan was better at pretty much everything else.

Except for passing and defence, yes

Acting like 41% on low volume and the jab step clunker/janky C&S banker is close to what KG did (45-46% via stepbacks, turnarounds on either shoulder, dribble pullups, quick C&S pull after popping, etc on high volume) is incredible.

I think the difference between KG and Duncan is closer than some opinions in this thread, but Moranis is saying that KG was a better shooter, so I'm not sure he's saying what you think he's saying here.

[GreenlyGreeny]

Lots of guys wanted to play with KG, they just did not want to live in Minnesota to do it.

I'm sure there are some players that is true of, but basically no free agents at all ever signed there.  That really hasn't been the case for basically anywhere else and certainly not with a guy as good as KG.  KG was literally punching teammates and forcing anyone that could have come close to his talent out the door. 

Btw, here is Woj talking about KG the bully, you know when he called Charlie Villanueva a cancer patient (or at least that is what Charlie said, of course KG's statement on what he said makes no sense).  https://news.yahoo.com/news/garnetts-bully-act-goes-too-181700093--nba.html

Lot's of video evidence on this one.  https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/1/14/7539949/kevin-garnett-fight-sad-bully

And another.  https://bleacherreport.com/articles/97395-kevin-garnett-the-big-ticket-becomes-the-big-bully

I really did think this stuff was all common knowledge.

None of this is any proof of your nonsensical statement that "a big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality". As much as you might try and shift the goalposts, knowing the ridiculousness of that claim, it is too late to take it back

At least quote the fully sentence before you accuse me of moving goal posts.  "A big reason why the Wolves didn't win more was a direct result of Garnett and his personality that and the simple fact that Garnett was not a #1. " 

Garnett was never a #1.  He was never a guy that could close out and finish games.  The only playoff success he ever had was when he played with closers and he rarely played with closers in part because the closers that passed through the team didn't want to stick around to play with KG (for various reasons).  It doesn't help when you sucker punch your teammates because they dare to stand up to you in practice. 

KG is an all time great player, but he couldn't close games and he couldn't keep his teammates around, which is why the Wolves didn't win more with him.  The Wolves were a revolving door during KG's tenure as they just couldn't keep his teammates there and couldn't lure anyone else there to play with him.  KG has to take a fair amount of that blame. 

Do you know who isn’t a closer? LeBron James.

Exhibit A: 2011 NBA Finals AKA Dirk closes, LeBron does not

Exhibit B: 4-6 in the NBA Finals (really 3-6 when considering what a joke the Bubble was)

Exhibit C: Kyrie makes the game winning 3 in game 7 of the 2016 NBA Finals

Exhibit D: Lakers are not even a play-in team at the all-star break

Exhibit E, F, …, literally countless examples demonstrating how LeBron is the all-time best example of an all-time great who simply could not close.

KG closes. You think we dominate game six of the 2008 NBA Finals without KG? You think we get to get game 7 of the 2010 NBA Finals stolen from us in the 4th without KG? KG closes, my man.