Author Topic: NFL Superbowl LV Thread  (Read 24088 times)

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Re: NFL Superbowl LV Thread
« Reply #255 on: February 09, 2021, 03:28:22 PM »

Online kraidstar

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There are only a handful of players in any professional sport that have won titles as even arguably the best (or most important) player for at least two different franchises. 

Tom Brady and Lebron James are the obvious 2, but there aren't any clear cut for sure thing others.

In basketball, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Kawhi all arguably fit that mold (clearly the best player for 1 franchise, but arguable for the other).  I'd probably count the first 3, but would still rate Duncan as better (and certainly more important) than Kawhi, despite Kawhi winning Finals MVP that season for the Spurs (Parker was also arguably better as well). 

In football, arguably you also have Peyton though he was basically benched in Denver before retaking the starting job and winning the title that year.  I'd probably count Peyton, though Von Miller was certainly a monster on defense and Peyton quite simply wasn't that good that year.

The only person you could argue in the NHL is Patrick Roy who won 2 titles with Montreal and 2 titles with Colorado, and since the goaltender is so important, I think I'd count him (though Sakic and Forsberg were both great players in Colorado).  The best position player to win with 2 franchises is Messier, but there isn't an argument at all that he was better than Gretzky in Edmonton. 

All of the great MLB players have all basically only won titles with 1 franchise. 

So in the history of the four major professional sports, Tom Brady has now joined Lebron James, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Patrick Roy, and Peyton Manning as the best and/or most important player on a title winning team for 2 different franchises.  Pretty good company to be in.

Not bad for a guy you were trashing back in November.
Oh yeah, this year was a surprise.  I guess he really wasn't happy in New England and when you aren't happy you don't really give it your all.  There was a definite downward trend the last few seasons in New England.  That  not only stopped this year but went the other way.  Remarkable season from Brady.

The "downward trend" was due to his not having any receivers to throw to. His last season his receivers had the lowest separation distance of any team in the NFL. The one good guy they had (AB) got discarded hypocritically to protect Kraft due to his Orchids of Asia scandal.

Tom had good reason to be disgruntled, it's hard to win in the playoffs with a bunch or practice squad receivers.

Re: NFL Superbowl LV Thread
« Reply #256 on: February 09, 2021, 03:31:23 PM »

Offline Moranis

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There are only a handful of players in any professional sport that have won titles as even arguably the best (or most important) player for at least two different franchises. 

Tom Brady and Lebron James are the obvious 2, but there aren't any clear cut for sure thing others.

In basketball, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Kawhi all arguably fit that mold (clearly the best player for 1 franchise, but arguable for the other).  I'd probably count the first 3, but would still rate Duncan as better (and certainly more important) than Kawhi, despite Kawhi winning Finals MVP that season for the Spurs (Parker was also arguably better as well). 

In football, arguably you also have Peyton though he was basically benched in Denver before retaking the starting job and winning the title that year.  I'd probably count Peyton, though Von Miller was certainly a monster on defense and Peyton quite simply wasn't that good that year.

The only person you could argue in the NHL is Patrick Roy who won 2 titles with Montreal and 2 titles with Colorado, and since the goaltender is so important, I think I'd count him (though Sakic and Forsberg were both great players in Colorado).  The best position player to win with 2 franchises is Messier, but there isn't an argument at all that he was better than Gretzky in Edmonton. 

All of the great MLB players have all basically only won titles with 1 franchise. 

So in the history of the four major professional sports, Tom Brady has now joined Lebron James, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Patrick Roy, and Peyton Manning as the best and/or most important player on a title winning team for 2 different franchises.  Pretty good company to be in.

Faint praise.  Brady has surpassed those other guys as a champion several times over.  Lebron is the only valid comparison, and this assumes he wins more championships; I think he will. Wilt was probably the 3rd best player on that 1972 Laker championship; Jerry West and (iirc) Gail Goodrich were more valuable. Kareem took back seat to Magic for those Laker championships (and later to Worthy as well). Shaq was second fiddle to Wade in the Miami championship. And Peyton "wasn't that good" that year? What you mean is that he was terrible.
Yeah the more I thought about Wilt, the more I probably should have counted West as the best player on the Lakers team. 

Shaq was the best player on the Heat (or at least the most important).  They were 42-17 that year with Shaq and just 10-13 without him.  And they fell off a cliff and won 15 games when Shaq left. He moved the needle, not Wade.

The 80 Lakers, Kareem was absolutely still the better player.  They obviously don't win without Magic, but Kareem, the man who won League MVP that season, was absolutely the Lakers best player in 80.  I don't think there is really an argument for Magic that season.  Now starting in 82, Magic was probably the better player, but not in 80.

As for Peyton, he was bad, but I also don't think they win the Superbowl if they don't go back to him.  So while Miller was probably the better player, I do think Manning was the most important player to them actually winning the Superbowl.
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Re: NFL Superbowl LV Thread
« Reply #257 on: February 09, 2021, 03:36:16 PM »

Offline Moranis

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All of the great MLB players have all basically only won titles with 1 franchise. 

Eh?



7 titles, GOAT.
The thing with Ruth is, I'm not really sure he was the best player on the Red Sox.  He barely batted back then and there were pitchers that were as good or better than him on those championship teams.  I certainly should have mentioned him, but acting like Ruth was assuredly the best player on the Red Sox is not a given. 

Reggie Jackson was a miss on my part.  I forgot he was that good in Oakland before New York.  He absolutely was the best player on champions for two different franchises. 
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Re: NFL Superbowl LV Thread
« Reply #258 on: February 09, 2021, 03:44:27 PM »

Offline Redz

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Rewatched the Super Bowl last night.

My takeaways:

1. The Bucs defense was truly great. Mahomes had no time to throw, and their receivers were under incredible duress all game long, which helped force a few drops.

Obviously this amounts to absolute diddly squat, but I was pretty amazed with the accuracy Mahomes was able get on some of those crazy, desperate scrambles.  Falling out bounds sideways with guys in his face and throwing the ball 30 yards the other direction on target is just nutty great athleticism.  Nevermind that the guys were covered.
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Re: NFL Superbowl LV Thread
« Reply #259 on: February 09, 2021, 03:56:28 PM »

Offline footey

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There are only a handful of players in any professional sport that have won titles as even arguably the best (or most important) player for at least two different franchises. 

Tom Brady and Lebron James are the obvious 2, but there aren't any clear cut for sure thing others.

In basketball, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Kawhi all arguably fit that mold (clearly the best player for 1 franchise, but arguable for the other).  I'd probably count the first 3, but would still rate Duncan as better (and certainly more important) than Kawhi, despite Kawhi winning Finals MVP that season for the Spurs (Parker was also arguably better as well). 

In football, arguably you also have Peyton though he was basically benched in Denver before retaking the starting job and winning the title that year.  I'd probably count Peyton, though Von Miller was certainly a monster on defense and Peyton quite simply wasn't that good that year.

The only person you could argue in the NHL is Patrick Roy who won 2 titles with Montreal and 2 titles with Colorado, and since the goaltender is so important, I think I'd count him (though Sakic and Forsberg were both great players in Colorado).  The best position player to win with 2 franchises is Messier, but there isn't an argument at all that he was better than Gretzky in Edmonton. 

All of the great MLB players have all basically only won titles with 1 franchise. 

So in the history of the four major professional sports, Tom Brady has now joined Lebron James, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Patrick Roy, and Peyton Manning as the best and/or most important player on a title winning team for 2 different franchises.  Pretty good company to be in.

Faint praise.  Brady has surpassed those other guys as a champion several times over.  Lebron is the only valid comparison, and this assumes he wins more championships; I think he will. Wilt was probably the 3rd best player on that 1972 Laker championship; Jerry West and (iirc) Gail Goodrich were more valuable. Kareem took back seat to Magic for those Laker championships (and later to Worthy as well). Shaq was second fiddle to Wade in the Miami championship. And Peyton "wasn't that good" that year? What you mean is that he was terrible.
Yeah the more I thought about Wilt, the more I probably should have counted West as the best player on the Lakers team. 

Shaq was the best player on the Heat (or at least the most important).  They were 42-17 that year with Shaq and just 10-13 without him.  And they fell off a cliff and won 15 games when Shaq left. He moved the needle, not Wade.

The 80 Lakers, Kareem was absolutely still the better player.  They obviously don't win without Magic, but Kareem, the man who won League MVP that season, was absolutely the Lakers best player in 80.  I don't think there is really an argument for Magic that season.  Now starting in 82, Magic was probably the better player, but not in 80.

As for Peyton, he was bad, but I also don't think they win the Superbowl if they don't go back to him.  So while Miller was probably the better player, I do think Manning was the most important player to them actually winning the Superbowl.

Yeah, I agree with you on the 1980 season; that was Magic's rookie year. Kareem was still there best player (although the won the deciding game when he was out, Magic had the amazing game 6).

Re: NFL Superbowl LV Thread
« Reply #260 on: February 09, 2021, 05:04:52 PM »

Online Roy H.

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All of the great MLB players have all basically only won titles with 1 franchise. 

Eh?



7 titles, GOAT.
The thing with Ruth is, I'm not really sure he was the best player on the Red Sox.  He barely batted back then and there were pitchers that were as good or better than him on those championship teams.  I certainly should have mentioned him, but acting like Ruth was assuredly the best player on the Red Sox is not a given. 

Reggie Jackson was a miss on my part.  I forgot he was that good in Oakland before New York.  He absolutely was the best player on champions for two different franchises.

Strongly disagree regarding the pitching.  Ruth was an ace:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1916.shtml

He led the league in ERA, games started, and shutouts.

And, in 1918 he led the majors in HRs, slugging and OPS.  And he was still pitching.  I think he still holds the lowest ERA lifetime in the World Series.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 05:11:57 PM by Roy H. »


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Re: NFL Superbowl LV Thread
« Reply #261 on: February 09, 2021, 06:46:59 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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There are only a handful of players in any professional sport that have won titles as even arguably the best (or most important) player for at least two different franchises. 

Tom Brady and Lebron James are the obvious 2, but there aren't any clear cut for sure thing others.

In basketball, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Kawhi all arguably fit that mold (clearly the best player for 1 franchise, but arguable for the other).  I'd probably count the first 3, but would still rate Duncan as better (and certainly more important) than Kawhi, despite Kawhi winning Finals MVP that season for the Spurs (Parker was also arguably better as well). 

In football, arguably you also have Peyton though he was basically benched in Denver before retaking the starting job and winning the title that year.  I'd probably count Peyton, though Von Miller was certainly a monster on defense and Peyton quite simply wasn't that good that year.

The only person you could argue in the NHL is Patrick Roy who won 2 titles with Montreal and 2 titles with Colorado, and since the goaltender is so important, I think I'd count him (though Sakic and Forsberg were both great players in Colorado).  The best position player to win with 2 franchises is Messier, but there isn't an argument at all that he was better than Gretzky in Edmonton. 

All of the great MLB players have all basically only won titles with 1 franchise. 

So in the history of the four major professional sports, Tom Brady has now joined Lebron James, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Patrick Roy, and Peyton Manning as the best and/or most important player on a title winning team for 2 different franchises.  Pretty good company to be in.

Are you forgetting Mookie Betts?