Poll

Why haven't the Celtics drafted any/many good centers under Ainge?

They have, his name is Kendrick Perkins/Jefferson or Player X should be considered a center.
14 (22.2%)
Center talent is rare, the Celtics track record is average compared to other teams.
14 (22.2%)
Poor development/coaching.
2 (3.2%)
They simply take the BPA/haven't often been in the right slot to take good centers.
11 (17.5%)
Their philosophy/draft strategy/system/roster made it lower priority.
5 (7.9%)
A combination/all of options 2-6.
14 (22.2%)
None of the above.
3 (4.8%)

Total Members Voted: 62

Author Topic: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?  (Read 18537 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2014, 08:09:04 PM »

Offline Greenback

  • NCE
  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 734
  • Tommy Points: 63
  • Take away love and the earth is a tomb. ~ Browning
Since Ainge began drafting in 2004, the Celtics have missed out on:

Varajao
David Lee
Blatche
Gortat
Hawes
Marc Gasol
Noah
Pekovic
Asik
Miles Plumlee
Dieng
Nurkic
McGary
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 08:53:11 PM by Greenback »
Everyone wants truth on his side, not everyone wants to be on the side of truth.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2014, 08:21:31 PM »

Offline Beat LA

  • NCE
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 896
  • Mr. Emoji
I voted "None of the Above." The real reason is because Danny was a combo guard, so that's what he knows best.  ;Di

You could be more right than you know ;D  Ainge has missed out on a lot of talent, especially during that era, just as the front office missed out on a ton of talented players during his career in Boston, so I guess that it's come full circle ::) 

True, good/great centers or big men with any discernible level of skill are hard to come by, but that's why it's so frustrating when it's often pretty clear who those guys are, and yet he passes over them.  Many people point to Marc Gasol, and I must admit that I wasn't as into the draft as I am now, but that would have been a coup for the ages.  In the 2nd round!? :o  Wow.  Strike one.  The very next year, Hibbert slipped, but not nearly far enough, even though I believe Danny was interested in him, and he was traded on draft day to Indiana for Jermaine O'Neal.  Outstanding move by Bird, even if it took some time to pay off.  I'm always frustrated at how Ainge says that he wanted to take player X, or that he was interested in this other dude.  Well, saying isn't enough - you've got to go out and do it.  After 07-08, the only guys who were untouchable, imo, were the fantastic four, and possibly Leon Powe, but everyone else could have been moved.  Take Perkins, for example.  He's a role player, at best, whose value, along with Big Baby's, was never higher than after the 2009 postseason.  That was the time to trade them for potentially awesome draft picks, like the one the Jazz had from the Knicks that wound up being #9 in 2010.  We could have signed Ben Wallace as his replacement and been more than compensated for his departure, but we didn't.  You don't get many chances to improve a contending team on the fly, if at all, and Danny should know this, but history suggests that he doesn't.  Who else needed a post defender after 2008 that could have yielded us a pick to select Hibbert?  Toronto?  Maybe.  Phoenix?  If Shaq hadn't been traded there, absolutely, because that was always the gaping hole in their lineup, and they needed someone cheap, to boot, and Perk easily fits all of those requirements, but alas, nothing happened. 

At the very least, Deandre Jordan was a no-brainer, both at the time, and now, but that's me.  What were our needs that offseason?  Posey, Posey, Posey, Posey, as well as replacements for Sam Cassell and PJ Brown.  What about Keyon Dooling (a free agent at the time) and the Birdman, who Danny passed over, despite, again, being heavily interest in the guy for years, for Patrick O'Bryant.  Stop.  Carlos Delfino was another guy who could have helped, although, after seeing him play this year, Alan Anderson would have been my choice, and what about Bonzi Wells?  My point here is that, yes virginia, we did have options ;D 

Bottom line, we need much better scouts at the absolute minimum, or maybe it's time for a change at the top, because Danny doesn't know what he's doing, imo, especially when it comes to the draft.  Adding a guy like Gasol to that 08-09 team may not have yielded a title that year because of KG's injury :'(, but I don't doubt that we could have won it all in 2010 with him inside instead of Perk.  HUGE UPGRADE.  Ugh.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2014, 08:26:25 PM »

Offline Clench123

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3055
  • Tommy Points: 251
Did Ainge ever admitted to make a mistake in trading Perkins?

I always said when I left the Celtics, I could not go to heaven, because that would
 be a step down. I am pure 100 percent Celtic. I think if you slashed my wrists, my
 blood would’ve been green.  -  Bill "Greatest of All Time" Russell

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2014, 09:47:16 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

  • NCE
  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7739
  • Tommy Points: 804
Marc Gasol, REALLY??? Didn't the entire league pass on him at least once? I hate when people say, "I knew this guy or that one was a no brainer." If they are such obvious choices wouldn't they go at the top of the draft? Heck, ANYBODY can see a guy and say he's going to be very and they turn out to be very good but forget about all the other people they swear up and down will be good who turn out to be busts. Danny and his team are the same, sometimes you are going to hit and sometimes you're going to miss... in reality you miss more than you score when it comes to things like this.

Please show me one poster who has followed the Celtics through Ainge's career, one that made mock drafts all those seasons and tell me honestly how many people did you hit and miss on with our picks. I bet you anything you missed more times than not.

You can't really count the years we had KG b/c there was Perk for the first few and then when LeBron took his talents to Mia, we traded Perk and after Shaq and JO couldn't stay healthy we changed strategy to compete with Mia and we didn't use a real center... so that's 6 seasons where he should not have really been looking for a C, we tried drafting more for the needs Doc (DA) thought we had.

In reality this league has moved away from true centers anyway so it's not as if a real center is as much of a need as you make it out to be... most of the centers today would be PFs in the past. We could have used a center last season but there weren't many of note to choose from in the draft and if Kelly can bulk up and defend he will be fine, he may give up some on defense but his offense can make up for that (I actually think Sully can be the center but he doesn't want to be so w.e). It wasn't any centers in this draft worth taking at our position... sure, there will probably be a surprise like always but it's not like a lot of teams didn't miss out on them too. Then, you need to take in to account the money we didn't have to get a FA center and even if we had the money did they want to come here.

Just a lot of reasons we don't have a "real center." I'm kinda of the mindset I want to go with the league and forgo having a Marc Gasol type. Give me Sully in shape and willing to do it and I'm ready (Monroe, healthy and younger KG, Bosh types). As soon as OKC gets the picture they could have a championship team... if they had Bosh type as their "center" they would be golden. I honestly don't think if they had Marc they would win. Maybe they should make Iblocka the center and get another good PF. Don't tell me about the Spurs, if they weren't pretending Duncan was a center then they would be another example of PFs winning it. They started putting it on Mia when Splitter was replaced by Diaw. We don't need a shot blocker, we need someone who defends decently and maybe does more damage on offense (Sully, I'm talking to you)!
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2014, 09:50:12 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
Did Ainge ever admitted to make a mistake in trading Perkins?

Why admit something that isn't true?
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2014, 09:52:43 PM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3097
  • Tommy Points: 191
  • Celtic's only raise championship Banners
He drafted two. 


How many good C have there been drafted after he drafted?  How many of those C were the better prospect then he picked? 

What was the team's need or direction at that point?

The first example that comes to mind was skipping DeAndre Jordan for J.R. Giddens.


It was a terrible pick. 


But what was the Celtics needs that offseason?

He also passed right over Omer Asik

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2014, 10:09:17 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5572
  • Tommy Points: 699
Since Ainge began drafting in 2004, the Celtics have missed out on:

Varajao-took Al Jefferson, which netted us KG. glad we missed out on him
David Lee- Not a Center. Bad draft though (gerald green)
Blatche- headcase, though we shouldve picked anyone other than Green
Gortat-clear miss, tbf a lot of teams did and hes an international player. Ainge should hire better international scouts.
Hawes-Drafted Jeff Green (traded for Ray) again, glad we missed out
Marc Gasol-see above
Noah-see Hawes
Pekovic-clear miss, one of Ainge's worst draft year
Asik-see above, ill add Jordan to this list
Miles Plumlee-shouldve been taken instead of The Fabolous Melo
Dieng-took Olynyk, jury is out (although I wouldntve taken Dieng and took the Greek Freak instead)
Nurkic-took smart, nurkic would be a reach there and was picked before their next pick
McGary-Early to tell if hes a better pick than James Young

From Above the only clear misses Ainge had was the year he drafted Giddens, Fab Melo. and Gerald Green. Draft is a crapshoot, and the only draft where you can say at that time that Ainge shouldve drafted a big was in the Giddens draft (Asik Jordan Pekovic). The Rationale though was we were set in bigs at that time (Perk, KG, Powe, Big Baby were healthy) and we had to replace James Posey. We didnt know at that time that Perk, KG, and Powe would have career altering injuries.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2014, 10:50:23 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17846
  • Tommy Points: 2666
  • bammokja
criminey...cb is back at it again. "ainge is bad at drafting players" has given birth to yet another thread has it?

how many times do we need to revisit this topic and how many times do we need to demonstrate that ainge is clearly one of better GMs at drafting talent. no one says he is perfect. but we do know that compared to other GMs he does very well.

the key is not to isolate only on the players "missed." take into account the needs, other GM moves, the late drafting position of the celtics, and general expectations/scouting reports.

ainge has delivered more nba players given the celtics' draft positions than virtually any other nba GM.

ainge's drafting is a strength.
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2014, 11:12:30 PM »

Offline More Banners

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3845
  • Tommy Points: 257
I really do think Ainge likes his guards, but mostly I'd say he looks for "value" as much as he can, and big guys are usually the opposite.  Size generally is overvalued, which is why he seems to take so much undersized talent, probably more than full-sized projects.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2014, 12:08:06 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36891
  • Tommy Points: 2969
Centers are the rare item ...good ones...they go first ......to the worst teams ....from there

Then they go to the Lakers.


Celtics rarely get top three pic .....and can't get the Dwight Howard's to join as free agents ....

It the NBA  era ...that Ainge presides over......lately with the help of NBA law...has even become difficult for LA to raid teams of lottery talent.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 12:14:29 AM by SHAQATTACK »

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2014, 12:49:02 AM »

Offline Beat LA

  • NCE
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 896
  • Mr. Emoji
Centers are the rare item ...good ones...they go first ......to the worst teams ....from there

Then they go to the Lakers.



Celtics rarely get top three pic .....and can't get the Dwight Howard's to join as free agents ....

It the NBA  era ...that Ainge presides over......lately with the help of NBA law...has even become difficult for LA to raid teams of lottery talent.

Ha!  Nailed it, TP ;D  When Howard went there it felt like the Magic had become the Lakers' farm system ;D, so I found it particularly gratifying when he left for Houston ;D  Serves them right.  ****ers.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2014, 12:51:01 AM »

Offline Beat LA

  • NCE
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 896
  • Mr. Emoji
criminey...cb is back at it again. "ainge is bad at drafting players" has given birth to yet another thread has it?

how many times do we need to revisit this topic and how many times do we need to demonstrate that ainge is clearly one of better GMs at drafting talent. no one says he is perfect. but we do know that compared to other GMs he does very well.

the key is not to isolate only on the players "missed." take into account the needs, other GM moves, the late drafting position of the celtics, and general expectations/scouting reports.

ainge has delivered more nba players given the celtics' draft positions than virtually any other nba GM.

ainge's drafting is a strength.

JR Giddens and Lester Hudson.  That is all.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2014, 12:56:54 AM »

Offline Beat LA

  • NCE
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 896
  • Mr. Emoji
Since Ainge began drafting in 2004, the Celtics have missed out on:

Varajao-took Al Jefferson, which netted us KG. glad we missed out on him
David Lee- Not a Center. Bad draft though (gerald green)
Blatche- headcase, though we shouldve picked anyone other than Green
Gortat-clear miss, tbf a lot of teams did and hes an international player. Ainge should hire better international scouts.
Hawes-Drafted Jeff Green (traded for Ray) again, glad we missed out
Marc Gasol-see above
Noah-see Hawes
Pekovic-clear miss, one of Ainge's worst draft year
Asik-see above, ill add Jordan to this list
Miles Plumlee-shouldve been taken instead of The Fabolous Melo
Dieng-took Olynyk, jury is out (although I wouldntve taken Dieng and took the Greek Freak instead)
Nurkic-took smart, nurkic would be a reach there and was picked before their next pick
McGary-Early to tell if hes a better pick than James Young

From Above the only clear misses Ainge had was the year he drafted Giddens, Fab Melo. and Gerald Green. Draft is a crapshoot, and the only draft where you can say at that time that Ainge shouldve drafted a big was in the Giddens draft (Asik Jordan Pekovic). The Rationale though was we were set in bigs at that time (Perk, KG, Powe, Big Baby were healthy) and we had to replace James Posey. We didnt know at that time that Perk, KG, and Powe would have career altering injuries.

The draft is not a crap-shoot.  There are always talented players available.  Always.  Even in 2013 ;D 

Now, you may be right about Perk, but I seem to recall the bone spurs in KG's knee being discovered prior to the 08-09 season, and Powe, like Bill Walton, was, unfortunately, a ticking time bomb with those knees.  We also shouldn't have had to replace Posey - we should have resigned him.  Period.  I don't care if it was for 4 years or not. 

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2014, 12:59:19 AM »

Offline Beat LA

  • NCE
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 896
  • Mr. Emoji
He drafted two. 


How many good C have there been drafted after he drafted?  How many of those C were the better prospect then he picked? 

What was the team's need or direction at that point?

The first example that comes to mind was skipping DeAndre Jordan for J.R. Giddens.


It was a terrible pick. 


But what was the Celtics needs that offseason?

He also passed right over Omer Asik

What is the fascination with Asik?  He has virtually no skill aside from his height, and he's a horrible free throw shooter.  I don't care what the advanced metrics say in regards to him, he's grossly overrated on here, imo.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2014, 01:09:56 AM »

Offline Beat LA

  • NCE
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 896
  • Mr. Emoji
Marc Gasol, REALLY??? Didn't the entire league pass on him at least once? I hate when people say, "I knew this guy or that one was a no brainer." If they are such obvious choices wouldn't they go at the top of the draft? Heck, ANYBODY can see a guy and say he's going to be very and they turn out to be very good but forget about all the other people they swear up and down will be good who turn out to be busts. Danny and his team are the same, sometimes you are going to hit and sometimes you're going to miss... in reality you miss more than you score when it comes to things like this.

Please show me one poster who has followed the Celtics through Ainge's career, one that made mock drafts all those seasons and tell me honestly how many people did you hit and miss on with our picks. I bet you anything you missed more times than not.

You can't really count the years we had KG b/c there was Perk for the first few and then when LeBron took his talents to Mia, we traded Perk and after Shaq and JO couldn't stay healthy we changed strategy to compete with Mia and we didn't use a real center... so that's 6 seasons where he should not have really been looking for a C, we tried drafting more for the needs Doc (DA) thought we had.

In reality this league has moved away from true centers anyway so it's not as if a real center is as much of a need as you make it out to be... most of the centers today would be PFs in the past. We could have used a center last season but there weren't many of note to choose from in the draft and if Kelly can bulk up and defend he will be fine, he may give up some on defense but his offense can make up for that (I actually think Sully can be the center but he doesn't want to be so w.e). It wasn't any centers in this draft worth taking at our position... sure, there will probably be a surprise like always but it's not like a lot of teams didn't miss out on them too. Then, you need to take in to account the money we didn't have to get a FA center and even if we had the money did they want to come here.

Just a lot of reasons we don't have a "real center." I'm kinda of the mindset I want to go with the league and forgo having a Marc Gasol type. Give me Sully in shape and willing to do it and I'm ready (Monroe, healthy and younger KG, Bosh types). As soon as OKC gets the picture they could have a championship team... if they had Bosh type as their "center" they would be golden. I honestly don't think if they had Marc they would win. Maybe they should make Iblocka the center and get another good PF. Don't tell me about the Spurs, if they weren't pretending Duncan was a center then they would be another example of PFs winning it. They started putting it on Mia when Splitter was replaced by Diaw. We don't need a shot blocker, we need someone who defends decently and maybe does more damage on offense (Sully, I'm talking to you)!

Not necessarily, especially with European players because of issues pertaining to them getting out of their contracts with their clubs to come play here.  It's not nearly as straight forward as you would think, which is why everyone says that you can't build a team through the draft because it's a crap shoot.   BullEdited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline..  It's only a crap shoot for the teams that have no idea what they're doing, and Ainge has been guilty of this more times than I'd like to remember. 

I must admit, at the time (2007), I wasn't into the draft like I am now, so I didn't know about Marc Gasol, but I knew about Deandre Jordan.  That was a complete no-brainer, especially at 30, and Danny takes a guy who was already 23 years old who wasn't even mentioned prior to the draft, or on draft night itself.  I believe the consensus was, "who?"  Ugh.