Author Topic: Observation from 1/20 PHI game  (Read 1493 times)

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Observation from 1/20 PHI game
« on: January 22, 2021, 04:37:32 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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This is less of a deeply thought out post (who does that?) and more of a note, but I found it kind of interesting.

I started watching a replay of Wednesday's game on League Pass, and a thought occurred to me:

How often do the Celts get the ball into the paint at least once in an offensive possession?

So I started over and watched the whole first quarter, tallying the possessions where the ball made it into the paint, compared to the possessions where it didn't.

My count:

26 possessions total

16 possessions where the ball never found the paint

10 possessions where it did



I didn't track this, but I also noticed that in those 10 paint possessions, maybe half of those ended in a turnover or a rushed shot that had no chance (e.g. an 8 foot flip shot from Brown or Teague, or Smart throwing up a high layup that didn't find the rim)

Now, I would do the whole game, but to be honest I don't have time.  Heck, I didn't really have time to watch this one quarter.


Anyway -- what this made me notice, as well, is that although many of the possessions without a paint touch featured a lot of ball movement, and several players touched the ball, the lack of penetration meant that the opposing defense didn't have to move around very much at all.  So there was a lot of offensive motion, but the defense didn't have to work very hard.


I'll have to come back and do this again when Tatum is back.  I'm hoping that with Tatum on the floor, the Celts pressure the opposing defense a bit more.  But Tatum's proclivity for step-back threes may cut against that.
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Re: Observation from 1/20 PHI game
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2021, 04:41:15 PM »

Offline NKY fan

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This is less of a deeply thought out post (who does that?) and more of a note, but I found it kind of interesting.

I started watching a replay of Wednesday's game on League Pass, and a thought occurred to me:

How often do the Celts get the ball into the paint at least once in an offensive possession?

So I started over and watched the whole first quarter, tallying the possessions where the ball made it into the paint, compared to the possessions where it didn't.

My count:

26 possessions total

16 possessions where the ball never found the paint

10 possessions where it did



I didn't track this, but I also noticed that in those 10 paint possessions, maybe half of those ended in a turnover or a rushed shot that had no chance.

Now, I would do the whole game, but to be honest I don't have time.  Heck, I didn't really have time to watch this one quarter.


Anyway -- what this made me notice, as well, is that although many of the possessions without a paint touch featured a lot of ball movement, and several players touched the ball, the lack of penetration meant that the opposing defense didn't have to move around very much at all.  So there was a lot of offensive motion, but the defense didn't have to work very hard.


I'll have to come back and do this again when Tatum is back.  I'm hoping that with Tatum on the floor, the Celts pressure the opposing defense a bit more.  But Tatum's proclivity for step-back threes may cut against that.
Sounds like your describing Brads specialty - college basketball.
 I always get irked when people say they prefer college basketball because they play defense unlike the nba where nobody plays defense .

Re: Observation from 1/20 PHI game
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2021, 04:49:56 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Sounds like your describing Brads specialty - college basketball.

 I always get irked when people say they prefer college basketball because they play defense unlike the nba where nobody plays defense .


I'm not sure about the connection to college basketball.  Frankly I don't really watch it.

One thing I'm gesturing at is that my instinct is to think a possession where multiple guys touch the ball is a good one.  If a few guys touch it and the shot at the end of the possession is more or less open, I typically feel like the offensive did its job.

But I'm challenging myself a bit on that -- with that example, if the defense was pretty much able to remain set and there was never even a threat of somebody getting an easy shot at the rim, was it a good possession?  Maybe not. 

Perhaps the thing that troubles me the most is the way that it seemed like the most neatly, intricately choreographed possessions were those ones where they never even tried to get inside, while the possessions that had a paint touch seemed improvised and rushed.  So that makes me think that the gameplan is not at all focused on getting points in the paint.


Of course a caveat is that they were playing Philly, a large team with more obviously exploitable weaknesses on the perimeter than in the paint.  Still, it seems like a good offense ought to be aimed at finding balance inside and out against any opponent.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Observation from 1/20 PHI game
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2021, 05:04:13 PM »

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Anyway -- what this made me notice, as well, is that although many of the possessions without a paint touch featured a lot of ball movement, and several players touched the ball, the lack of penetration meant that the opposing defense didn't have to move around very much at all.  So there was a lot of offensive motion, but the defense didn't have to work very hard.

This is why I keep talking about the lack of big man passing.

The value of big man passing being the ball gets inside the opposing defense and forces them to react to the ball allowing player movement to flourish.

When everything is off the dribble that means that everything is happening in front of a set defense. 5 guys between the ball and the basket. Everyone with eyes on the ball, seeing what is happening and ready to help where necessary.

Get the ball to the big man and have the ball move in and out, side to side, and now it is much harder for opposition defense to stay in position where all 5 guys are between the ball and the rim. Where all 5 guys can keep eyes on the ball and their man.

Allowing more movement and more open shots. Both easy interior shots and open perimeter shots.

This has been a problem for Boston since Al Horford left. And even before Horford, we had Olynyk and even Sullinger who offered enough passing ability to let our offenses flow like this.

This is missing from this group's offense and makes them more predictable and easy to defend.

Two other thoughts:

(1) This is the best value of Grant Williams as an undersized center. His passing ability relative to our other centers. Creation of ball movement. I know Grant at center annoys many but this is often the main reason why he ends up there. Because of the passing limitations of the other bigs. Also sometimes for perimeter team defense.

(2) Rob Williams is the best equipped of the centers to provide some of this but they use him more as a role man than a passing big which is a shame. They need to make better use of his passing ability. Too much short term thinking on the usage of Rob Williams by CBS. Needs to develop his passing and therefore the team's offense in order to max out our playoff hopes.

Re: Observation from 1/20 PHI game
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2021, 05:06:28 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Anyway -- what this made me notice, as well, is that although many of the possessions without a paint touch featured a lot of ball movement, and several players touched the ball, the lack of penetration meant that the opposing defense didn't have to move around very much at all.  So there was a lot of offensive motion, but the defense didn't have to work very hard.

This is why I keep talking about the lack of big man passing.

The value of big man passing being the ball gets inside the opposing defense and forces them to react to the ball allowing player movement to flourish.

When everything is off the dribble that means that everything is happening in front of a set defense. 5 guys between the ball and the basket. Everyone with eyes on the ball, seeing what is happening and ready to help where necessary.




Yeah this whole discussion definitely makes me miss Al Horford a whole lot.  His passing from the middle of the floor was hugely valuable.


You're totally right that even before Horford, Kelly and Sully provided some of the same.

Definitely missing that type of player on this roster. 

My issue with Grant Williams is that he's so small.  You really want your passing big to be a bit taller to be able to see and pass over opposing players.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Observation from 1/20 PHI game
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2021, 05:33:55 PM »

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Great topic, Good discussion.

Would love to see someone do a full game breakdown including n UK mber of touches.
Interesting that we want more paint touches but the off the bounce paint touchs seem to end poorly. Completely think Rob William's passing is under utilized, perhaps bc he's not a threat to score? Wish he could stay on the court...

Re: Observation from 1/20 PHI game
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2021, 05:36:41 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Great topic, Good discussion.

Would love to see someone do a full game breakdown including n UK mber of touches.
Interesting that we want more paint touches but the off the bounce paint touchs seem to end poorly. Completely think Rob William's passing is under utilized, perhaps bc he's not a threat to score? Wish he could stay on the court...


Playing time on this team comes down to the coach's trust in a guy to be where he's supposed to be and make the correct decisions on defense.  Defense is why I think Rob has trouble getting playing time, especially when he's competing with vets like Theis and TT.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Observation from 1/20 PHI game
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2021, 06:11:38 PM »

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Great topic, Good discussion.

Would love to see someone do a full game breakdown including n UK mber of touches.
Interesting that we want more paint touches but the off the bounce paint touchs seem to end poorly. Completely think Rob William's passing is under utilized, perhaps bc he's not a threat to score? Wish he could stay on the court...


Playing time on this team comes down to the coach's trust in a guy to be where he's supposed to be and make the correct decisions on defense.  Defense is why I think Rob has trouble getting playing time, especially when he's competing with vets like Theis and TT.

And health.

Re: Observation from 1/20 PHI game
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2021, 06:14:46 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Great topic, Good discussion.

Would love to see someone do a full game breakdown including n UK mber of touches.
Interesting that we want more paint touches but the off the bounce paint touchs seem to end poorly. Completely think Rob William's passing is under utilized, perhaps bc he's not a threat to score? Wish he could stay on the court...


Playing time on this team comes down to the coach's trust in a guy to be where he's supposed to be and make the correct decisions on defense.  Defense is why I think Rob has trouble getting playing time, especially when he's competing with vets like Theis and TT.

And health.

Sure, of course.  That has been a barrier for Rob as well.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Observation from 1/20 PHI game
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2021, 06:57:58 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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Great topic, Good discussion.

Would love to see someone do a full game breakdown including n UK mber of touches.
Interesting that we want more paint touches but the off the bounce paint touchs seem to end poorly. Completely think Rob William's passing is under utilized, perhaps bc he's not a threat to score? Wish he could stay on the court...

Both 8-Mile and Timelord are hopefully going to be very important in the future to give our offense a different look from where it is now. The Celtics struggle when they meet good defensive sides, because the offense is too one-dimensional. It's why the Heat was able to beat us in the playoffs and why the Raptors came close doing that before.

Does Stevens need an assistant who focusses on the offense? Because Stevens is a good defensive coach, but seems to be lacking creativity on his set plays and doesn't hold players accountable as he does on the defensive end. Honestly, sometimes I'm jealous of the Lakers who always seem to play with joy and flair on offense.

Re: Observation from 1/20 PHI game
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2021, 07:27:18 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Does Stevens need an assistant who focusses on the offense? Because Stevens is a good defensive coach, but seems to be lacking creativity on his set plays and doesn't hold players accountable as he does on the defensive end. Honestly, sometimes I'm jealous of the Lakers who always seem to play with joy and flair on offense.



I think the word I would use to describe what I see in the Lakers offense that I miss when I'm watching the Celts try to score is "power." 

The Lakers are a powerful team.  Every trip down I'm bracing to see how the opponent is going to prevent the Lakers finding a high percentage look inside.  You don't feel anything like that anticipation when watching the Celtics.

Of course a lot of that comes down to the lethality of the Lebron - AD combo.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain