What would it take to get Nerlens Noel?

[BballTim]

I always thought they were playing Okafor to showcase him. He puts up numbers, but he's limited as a defender and his game is very old school (that's a negative). From the comments on this board it seems like the general perception is that Noel is the expendable one, if the Sixers were inclined to deal one of the two. Playing Okafor as a rookie was also a good tanking tactic.

I think that while Noel is somewhat overrated as a defender right now, he actually has the physical capability of becoming a good one with experience and good coaching. I don't think Okafor will ever be a good defender and there's a limit to how good your team can be with him starting and taking a large percentage of shots.

What do you guys think? I'm just surprised that people are assuming Noel is the one Sixers brass would rather deal if there is a trade.

I think it's more wishful thinking than anything else.  We'd much rather have Noel than Okafor, so we convince ourselves that he might be available.

based on the comments from Philly fans in that Noel trade article, there's a good chunk of fans who would prefer trading Okafor for the reasons listed above... They think Noel has a higher ceiling and Okafor will never be a good defender.  There is also a couple comments in there that they think embiid and Noel would play well together and they want to wait and see.

  If that's the case, be glad you're not a fan of the super-tankers. A center with serious health concerns who had issues when he was drafted, a center who's a pretty weak offensive player and another center with even less potential than Noel isn't exactly a great haul for a team heading into it's 3rd straight sub-20 win season with no end in sight. I don't know if you were here before the KG trade, but the anger that *one* really bad season didn't result in a franchise player was pretty strong that summer.

[BballTim]

Noel is a franchise player. Something the Celtics cannot afford right now outside of a hard tank. 2016 could be a huge year for this franchise if they just do the right thing. Maybe get Skal AND Simmons?!! Only if Ainge and Stevens can get on board.

  Did you ever see a franchise center play when they were younger? They didn't look like Noel does. He's a franchise player like DeAndre Jordan is or Theo Ratliff was. It's possible he could get to that level, but the odds are very slim.

[Vermont Green]

Interesting debate around the two questions:

• Is the Philly "plan" working?
• Are Noel, Okafor, Embiid individually valuable assests

As to the Philly "plan", I think it started with a really good trade with NO and from there they drafted the best player available (in their opinion) 3 times and ended up with 3 players that appear to not fit together (or in the case of Embiid, may not ever even play).  I didn't have any real problem with the individual moves.  Noel slid because of injury, as did Embiid so you could view that as a value play.  There is no sure fire way to rebuild a team from the bottom.  Losing and drafting worked great for OKC, not so much for CLE (until they signed LBJ), and not so much so far for PHI.  Not sure what the alternative was for PHI though.

Now as to the individual assets, it does not seem as though any combination of 2 of these players is going to work well together.  There seems to be evidence that Okafor-Noel does not work well (there could be a coaching factor in that, I don't know) and it doesn't seem that Okafor-Embiid or Noel-Embiid is going to be any better.  I think they could trade either Okafor or Noel and get plenty back for them (for example, the Celtics would probably trade Smart and/or BRK 2018 pick for either).  Not sure how to value Embiid right now.

Would the discussion about the Sixers be all that different if they had taken Porzingis or WCS?  Or Marcus Smart over Embiid?  Or someone else over Noel?  I don't think so.  My point is I think Philly has done about what they could with the situation.  It is not clear that Plan B or Plan X would be any better.

[LarBrd33]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

im no more unfairly criticizing Smart then you are unfairly giving him the benefit of the doubt.   If he wasn't a Celtic, he'd be on none of our radars.  We'd think less of him than kentavious caldwell pope or something. If he was averaging these numbers on the raptors, the fan base would probably rather have Ben mclemore.

You can try to turn this into some nonsense about me hating Celtic players, but that doesn't make ignoring why Noel has struggled any less stupid.  It's widely acknowledged and understood that he has struggled because he's been forced to play out of position next to Okafor.   These last three games he's started at center, had a mildly competent point guard playing with him, and surprise surprise he's played as well as he did last year at center with a mildly competent point guard.  They have even managed to win two of those games.  The idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty whether or not you want to pretend I'm a meany-pants Celtic hater.

[Future Celtics Owner]

I think it would be easier to get John Henson...and maybe better too.

[Moranis]

Interesting debate around the two questions:

• Is the Philly "plan" working?
• Are Noel, Okafor, Embiid individually valuable assests

As to the Philly "plan", I think it started with a really good trade with NO and from there they drafted the best player available (in their opinion) 3 times and ended up with 3 players that appear to not fit together (or in the case of Embiid, may not ever even play).  I didn't have any real problem with the individual moves.  Noel slid because of injury, as did Embiid so you could view that as a value play.  There is no sure fire way to rebuild a team from the bottom.  Losing and drafting worked great for OKC, not so much for CLE (until they signed LBJ), and not so much so far for PHI.  Not sure what the alternative was for PHI though.

Now as to the individual assets, it does not seem as though any combination of 2 of these players is going to work well together.  There seems to be evidence that Okafor-Noel does not work well (there could be a coaching factor in that, I don't know) and it doesn't seem that Okafor-Embiid or Noel-Embiid is going to be any better.  I think they could trade either Okafor or Noel and get plenty back for them (for example, the Celtics would probably trade Smart and/or BRK 2018 pick for either).  Not sure how to value Embiid right now.

Would the discussion about the Sixers be all that different if they had taken Porzingis or WCS?  Or Marcus Smart over Embiid?  Or someone else over Noel?  I don't think so.  My point is I think Philly has done about what they could with the situation.  It is not clear that Plan B or Plan X would be any better.

If Embiid hadn't been re-injured, I think they handle the last draft a lot differently.  They clearly don't take Okafor if they keep the pick, but I think they would have traded back, picked up another asset and gone with Mudiay.  It was widely rumored the Knicks wanted Okafor, perhaps the Sixers just dropped back a spot, picked up something else and came away with Mudiay.  The Embiid re-injury changed their draft a great deal last summer. 

[LarBrd33]

Interesting debate around the two questions:

• Is the Philly "plan" working?
• Are Noel, Okafor, Embiid individually valuable assests

As to the Philly "plan", I think it started with a really good trade with NO and from there they drafted the best player available (in their opinion) 3 times and ended up with 3 players that appear to not fit together (or in the case of Embiid, may not ever even play).  I didn't have any real problem with the individual moves.  Noel slid because of injury, as did Embiid so you could view that as a value play.  There is no sure fire way to rebuild a team from the bottom.  Losing and drafting worked great for OKC, not so much for CLE (until they signed LBJ), and not so much so far for PHI.  Not sure what the alternative was for PHI though.

Now as to the individual assets, it does not seem as though any combination of 2 of these players is going to work well together.  There seems to be evidence that Okafor-Noel does not work well (there could be a coaching factor in that, I don't know) and it doesn't seem that Okafor-Embiid or Noel-Embiid is going to be any better.  I think they could trade either Okafor or Noel and get plenty back for them (for example, the Celtics would probably trade Smart and/or BRK 2018 pick for either).  Not sure how to value Embiid right now.

Would the discussion about the Sixers be all that different if they had taken Porzingis or WCS?  Or Marcus Smart over Embiid?  Or someone else over Noel?  I don't think so.  My point is I think Philly has done about what they could with the situation.  It is not clear that Plan B or Plan X would be any better.

If Embiid hadn't been re-injured, I think they handle the last draft a lot differently.  They clearly don't take Okafor if they keep the pick, but I think they would have traded back, picked up another asset and gone with Mudiay.  It was widely rumored the Knicks wanted Okafor, perhaps the Sixers just dropped back a spot, picked up something else and came away with Mudiay.  The Embiid re-injury changed their draft a great deal last summer.

i think they call the lakers bluff and take Okafor at 3rd regardless if embiid was healthy.  It would make these last couple months even more of a struggle, but you always should take best player available... Especially when the best player is a 7 footer.  They will have plenty of options heading forward.

[Eddie20]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

im no more unfairly criticizing Smart then you are unfairly giving him the benefit of the doubt.   If he wasn't a Celtic, he'd be on none of our radars.  We'd think less of him than kentavious caldwell pope or something. If he was averaging these numbers on the raptors, the fan base would probably rather have Ben mclemore.

You can try to turn this into some nonsense about me hating Celtic players, but that doesn't make ignoring why Noel has struggled any less stupid.  It's widely acknowledged and understood that he has struggled because he's been forced to play out of position next to Okafor.   These last three games he's started at center, had a mildly competent point guard playing with him, and surprise surprise he's played as well as he did last year at center with a mildly competent point guard.  They have even managed to win two of those games.  The idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty whether or not you want to pretend I'm a meany-pants Celtic hater.

So you're singing this song again after he played Phoenix and Sacramento (two of worst defenses in the league) and a Utah team that was missing Gobert and Favors? If so, you're in for a hard landing soon...

[Vermont Green]

I guess my point is even if they had taken Mudiay after trading back with NYK, how much different is this discussion about the success of the Sixer's "plan"?  You can second guess any draft by any team but I could see it as just as likely that Okafor on NYK shows some success and becomes an all star and the Sixer's get criticized for not taking him.

For me, if I had been the Sixers, I would have taken Okafor almost no matter what.  I really can't criticize them for that pick.  I would also be delighted if the Celtics were able to trade for Okafor.  I think he is a good player.  These current day draft picks are so young, it is really hard to expect much the first few years in the NBA.   I would much rather have Okafor over Mudiay and a future NYK pick for example.

[LarBrd33]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

im no more unfairly criticizing Smart then you are unfairly giving him the benefit of the doubt.   If he wasn't a Celtic, he'd be on none of our radars.  We'd think less of him than kentavious caldwell pope or something. If he was averaging these numbers on the raptors, the fan base would probably rather have Ben mclemore.

You can try to turn this into some nonsense about me hating Celtic players, but that doesn't make ignoring why Noel has struggled any less stupid.  It's widely acknowledged and understood that he has struggled because he's been forced to play out of position next to Okafor.   These last three games he's started at center, had a mildly competent point guard playing with him, and surprise surprise he's played as well as he did last year at center with a mildly competent point guard.  They have even managed to win two of those games.  The idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty whether or not you want to pretend I'm a meany-pants Celtic hater.

So you're singing this song again after he played Phoenix and Sacramento (two of worst defenses in the league) and a Utah team that was missing Gobert and Favors? If so, you're in for a hard landing soon...

i care less about the offensive numbers than the fact that playing his natural position let's him do what he can do defensively.   As long as he stays in philly next to Okafor, it's going to be a problem.  I doubt they intend to keep Okafor on the bench so I'm sure Noel will go back to "regressing" if he has to return to playing out of position.   

[BballTim]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

im no more unfairly criticizing Smart then you are unfairly giving him the benefit of the doubt.   If he wasn't a Celtic, he'd be on none of our radars.  We'd think less of him than kentavious caldwell pope or something. If he was averaging these numbers on the raptors, the fan base would probably rather have Ben mclemore.

  Smart's no worse than many of the players you've been pretty high on, including Mclemore, Stauskas or Anthony Bennett.

[hwangjini_1]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

welcome to the world of lb. now wait for him to either deny he does so, or, move the goal posts. i suggest you stop this particular discussion since lb is not about to change.

[Eddie20]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

im no more unfairly criticizing Smart then you are unfairly giving him the benefit of the doubt.   If he wasn't a Celtic, he'd be on none of our radars.  We'd think less of him than kentavious caldwell pope or something. If he was averaging these numbers on the raptors, the fan base would probably rather have Ben mclemore.

You can try to turn this into some nonsense about me hating Celtic players, but that doesn't make ignoring why Noel has struggled any less stupid.  It's widely acknowledged and understood that he has struggled because he's been forced to play out of position next to Okafor.   These last three games he's started at center, had a mildly competent point guard playing with him, and surprise surprise he's played as well as he did last year at center with a mildly competent point guard.  They have even managed to win two of those games.  The idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty whether or not you want to pretend I'm a meany-pants Celtic hater.

So you're singing this song again after he played Phoenix and Sacramento (two of worst defenses in the league) and a Utah team that was missing Gobert and Favors? If so, you're in for a hard landing soon...

i care less about the offensive numbers than the fact that playing his natural position let's him do what he can do defensively.   As long as he stays in philly next to Okafor, it's going to be a problem.  I doubt they intend to keep Okafor on the bench so I'm sure Noel will go back to "regressing" if he has to return to playing out of position.

Didn't he play center in the 2 games Okafor was suspended? Oh, you don't count those, I see.

[Ilikesports17]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

im no more unfairly criticizing Smart then you are unfairly giving him the benefit of the doubt.   If he wasn't a Celtic, he'd be on none of our radars.  We'd think less of him than kentavious caldwell pope or something. If he was averaging these numbers on the raptors, the fan base would probably rather have Ben mclemore.

You can try to turn this into some nonsense about me hating Celtic players, but that doesn't make ignoring why Noel has struggled any less stupid.  It's widely acknowledged and understood that he has struggled because he's been forced to play out of position next to Okafor.   These last three games he's started at center, had a mildly competent point guard playing with him, and surprise surprise he's played as well as he did last year at center with a mildly competent point guard.  They have even managed to win two of those games.  The idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty whether or not you want to pretend I'm a meany-pants Celtic hater.

So you're singing this song again after he played Phoenix and Sacramento (two of worst defenses in the league) and a Utah team that was missing Gobert and Favors? If so, you're in for a hard landing soon...

i care less about the offensive numbers than the fact that playing his natural position let's him do what he can do defensively.   As long as he stays in philly next to Okafor, it's going to be a problem.  I doubt they intend to keep Okafor on the bench so I'm sure Noel will go back to "regressing" if he has to return to playing out of position.

Removing Marcus from the equation one thing has been proven this year. Noel cannot currently play with okafor and does not show signs of moving towards being able to play with him.

This hurts Noel's value

[Eddie20]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

welcome to the world of lb. now wait for him to either deny he does so, or, move the goal posts. i suggest you stop this particular discussion since lb is not about to change.

In a nutshell.

Maybe he's upset that after 3 1/2 years of misery their best player is named Ish Smith.