Author Topic: Celtics trade for David Lee  (Read 83025 times)

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Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #465 on: July 08, 2015, 04:10:56 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I think it's worthwhile to go through and parse each of these stats rather than listing them off. Shall we? I think we shall:
Quote
.
His ORtg is higher than his DRtg in every season but one.
Fundamental misunderstanding of the measurement, since they do not directly correlate in this fashion.


Quote
His WAR is over the league average.
Link?


Quote
His VORP is decent.
Nebulous definition.

Quote
His BPM is positive.
A high bar.


Quote
His win shares are fine.
Again, a nebulous definition, but win shares are notoriously fickle in that they're directly influenced by wins.

Quote
The advanced metrics say that David Lee is a net positive and there's really no debating that.
hardly.

Quote
As a result, your assertion that David Lee "sucks" or was an "empty calorie" player simply doesn't hold water.
If you say so?
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #466 on: July 08, 2015, 04:13:29 PM »

Offline Chris22

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David Lee is a good player.
His strengths are scoring and rebounding, but not defense.

Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #467 on: July 08, 2015, 04:19:15 PM »

Offline DraftSmart33

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Some fun highlights from 2014.

Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #468 on: July 08, 2015, 04:36:57 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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no the fear is that he doesn't move the needle enough in a positive direction, and that our team still sucks, but we're now more likely to overachieve to be a 7th seed punching bag.

You can make the argument that there's merit to signing someone like Greg Monroe if you do things this way  -- aka the Milwaukee method -- but, uh, that's Greg Monroe and we can't surround him with a Jabari Parker, you know? Instead we have David Lee and Marcus Smart, and we continue to miss out on the assets to land someone with the potential to be a real game changer.

Here's what we all know:

a) All Celtics fans want the team's ultimate direction to be upward.

b) There are two basic ways of doing that: 1) gradual improvement, with maybe a sudden boost here or there from a key trade or FA signing; and 2) bottoming out and then (hopefully) skyrocketing to the top via using or trading high draft picks.

c) Danny has clearly chosen the former.

If Danny had wanted to tank, he would've done it. Last year's team turned out to be maybe a little better than Danny secretly hoped for, but he couldn't have been surprised—because if he'd wanted to tank, he would not have hired such a good motivator as Brad Stevens. And after that, he would not have made moves such as turning a TPE into Tyler Zeller and Isaiah Thomas. He would've let TPEs expire for nothing. He would've signed a bunch of old shlubs and D-Leaguers.

But since he didn't do those things, and instead did the things he did, it's clear he's going for gradual improvement while maintaining the ability to strike while the iron's hot (whenever it gets hot). I agree that waiting is sometimes hard—I've struggled with the process sometimes—but Danny's course of action is clear, and I think it would be helpful to pro-tankers to give up tanking hopes at this particular point in this particular rebuild. Maybe Danny will tank the next time around, but that's not how things worked out this time—if last season's mismatched collection of assets couldn't miss the playoffs and get a decent draft slot, then the tanking route has no shot this time around.

Given, then, that Danny is taking the gradual-improvement route, getting David Lee is a good move. He's way better than Gerald Wallace, and the combination of Lee and Amir Johnson is a clear upgrade to our frontcourt. I like Sully and KO, but they haven't blown off our doors so far, despite having plenty of opportunity to do so. Plus, Sully's had a lot of injury and weight issues, and Kelly has consistently shown an aversion to being aggressive. I'm all for developing young guys if they're worth developing—that is, if they're going to take advantage of their opportunities. At the very least, having guys like Lee and Johnson around is good motivation for the young guys to step up their game (though they should've already been sufficiently motivated), so if Sully and/or KO are still around at training camp, and neither appears to have made huge strides since last season, why would we want to keep them around any longer?

I don't think Ainge hired Stevens with the idea that the Celtics were going to be competitive two years into a six-year contract. I think he was hired because he was used to molding middling players into above-adequate performance. I assume that ownership feels the same way, because you don't hire a rookie head coach from the NCAA if you're trying for short-term NBA success, you hire a Lionel Hollins or a George Karl or a PJ Carlissimo or whatever.

Likewise, I think Ainge's attitude has been that he'll make any deal as long as he thinks its a good one. He's said as much re: Thomas and the Lee deal is in the same vein.

I'm not actually particularly pro tanking, by the way, and I think my post history speaks to that. What I am very against are empty-calorie players like Evan Turner and David Lee being the faces of the C's. They're like a less entertaining, less talented version of the Walker/Pierce Celtics from a decade-plus ago, and I don't see that approach as being particularly meaningful to the future of the franchise.

I very much agree with the bolded.

I'm sure you're right in saying Ainge probably didn't think the team would be competitive only 2 years into a 6-year deal. But if Ainge knew that Stevens was good at getting more-than-expected production out of middling players, that tells me that Ainge wasn't interested in tanking or anything like it. Maybe Ainge didn't expect as much team improvement as occurred last season, but I think he expected at least some improvement.

And I think that's what David Lee brings—some improvement. Maybe not a lot. But a net positive of some kind. Some people don't like that, either because he's not a drastic improvement that vaults us to contender status, or because he's not an alleged franchise savior like Towns or Wiggins. And that's fine; I understand that some people prefer other methods of rebuilding. I just hope that by now people would see the direction that Ainge has chosen, and that he's not going to change tactics midstream—he's going to keep making the team somewhat better than it was before, while still hoping to hit on that big deal should it ever materialize. And Lee fits that overall plan; having him instead of Gerald Wallace puts the team in a better position than it was in last week—talent-wise and asset-wise.

I don't want empty-calorie guys, either. Lee might be like that in some ways, but I don't think he (or guys like him) is Danny's end-game. Lee might play surprisingly well, and Danny might surprise us and actually keep Lee through this season and then even bring him back—or he might trade Lee at the deadline. Either way, this process is ongoing.
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Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #469 on: July 08, 2015, 09:07:08 PM »

Offline Jonny CC

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I think it's worthwhile to go through and parse each of these stats rather than listing them off. Shall we? I think we shall:
Quote
.
His ORtg is higher than his DRtg in every season but one.
Fundamental misunderstanding of the measurement, since they do not directly correlate in this fashion.


Quote
His WAR is over the league average.
Link?


Quote
His VORP is decent.
Nebulous definition.

Quote
His BPM is positive.
A high bar.


Quote
His win shares are fine.
Again, a nebulous definition, but win shares are notoriously fickle in that they're directly influenced by wins.

Quote
The advanced metrics say that David Lee is a net positive and there's really no debating that.
hardly.

Quote
As a result, your assertion that David Lee "sucks" or was an "empty calorie" player simply doesn't hold water.
If you say so?

D.o.s. is on fire again!!!
Before a game on Christmas against the Pacers, Bird told Chuck Person that he had a present for him. During the game, Bird shot a 3-pointer in front of Person. Immediately after releasing the ball, Bird said to Person, "Merry F!#*ing Christmas!" and then the shot went in.

Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #470 on: July 09, 2015, 06:51:44 AM »

Offline Granath

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I think it's worthwhile to go through and parse each of these stats rather than listing them off. Shall we? I think we shall:
Quote
.
His ORtg is higher than his DRtg in every season but one.
Fundamental misunderstanding of the measurement, since they do not directly correlate in this fashion.


Quote
His WAR is over the league average.
Link?


Quote
His VORP is decent.
Nebulous definition.

Quote
His BPM is positive.
A high bar.


Quote
His win shares are fine.
Again, a nebulous definition, but win shares are notoriously fickle in that they're directly influenced by wins.

Quote
The advanced metrics say that David Lee is a net positive and there's really no debating that.
hardly.

Quote
As a result, your assertion that David Lee "sucks" or was an "empty calorie" player simply doesn't hold water.
If you say so?

You poor, poor thing. No wonder you're confused. This one link will answer all of your questions and concerns.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leeda02.html

I hope you can rest better now knowing there is a website that you can look up the statistics all by yourself like a big boy. Truly you must be overjoyed to find out this information and I'm so glad that I could do my little part to help you see a larger world.

Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #471 on: July 09, 2015, 09:51:02 AM »

Offline iadera

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It's not a huge move, but not bad either. You can't be less productive than Wallace. Lee can and will play! Unlike Wallace.

Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #472 on: July 09, 2015, 09:58:38 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I think it's worthwhile to go through and parse each of these stats rather than listing them off. Shall we? I think we shall:
Quote
.
His ORtg is higher than his DRtg in every season but one.
Fundamental misunderstanding of the measurement, since they do not directly correlate in this fashion.


Quote
His WAR is over the league average.
Link?


Quote
His VORP is decent.
Nebulous definition.

Quote
His BPM is positive.
A high bar.


Quote
His win shares are fine.
Again, a nebulous definition, but win shares are notoriously fickle in that they're directly influenced by wins.

Quote
The advanced metrics say that David Lee is a net positive and there's really no debating that.
hardly.

Quote
As a result, your assertion that David Lee "sucks" or was an "empty calorie" player simply doesn't hold water.
If you say so?

You poor, poor thing. No wonder you're confused. This one link will answer all of your questions and concerns.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leeda02.html

I hope you can rest better now knowing there is a website that you can look up the statistics all by yourself like a big boy. Truly you must be overjoyed to find out this information and I'm so glad that I could do my little part to help you see a larger world.

You are a blessing. I am glad that you are here to contribute positively to this discussion and respond well to criticism.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #473 on: July 09, 2015, 10:23:28 AM »

Offline Chris22

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I think it's a great move.
Getting a former allstar for Wallace's contract.

Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #474 on: July 09, 2015, 10:32:16 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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I think it's worthwhile to go through and parse each of these stats rather than listing them off. Shall we? I think we shall:
Quote
.
His ORtg is higher than his DRtg in every season but one.
Fundamental misunderstanding of the measurement, since they do not directly correlate in this fashion.


Quote
His WAR is over the league average.
Link?


Quote
His VORP is decent.
Nebulous definition.

Quote
His BPM is positive.
A high bar.


Quote
His win shares are fine.
Again, a nebulous definition, but win shares are notoriously fickle in that they're directly influenced by wins.

Quote
The advanced metrics say that David Lee is a net positive and there's really no debating that.
hardly.

Quote
As a result, your assertion that David Lee "sucks" or was an "empty calorie" player simply doesn't hold water.
If you say so?

You poor, poor thing. No wonder you're confused. This one link will answer all of your questions and concerns.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leeda02.html

I hope you can rest better now knowing there is a website that you can look up the statistics all by yourself like a big boy. Truly you must be overjoyed to find out this information and I'm so glad that I could do my little part to help you see a larger world.

You are a blessing. I am glad that you are here to contribute positively to this discussion and respond well to criticism.
the fact is that like 90% of advanced stats suggest Lee has a positive impact on the game. Thats worth taking into consideration rather than dismissing Granaths posts because you can find a flaw in the verbiage behind them. Like he said, click on his bball reference page and scroll down to advanced stats. he is above average in every one except for OBPM
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Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #475 on: July 09, 2015, 10:35:55 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I am very familiar with BBref. The notion that Lee performs at an above average level via advanced stats is one that is taken by people that are less familiar, IMO. It depends on which stats you want to emphasize, how you want to emphasize them. the thesis that Lee's offense (which is great) is largely offset by his defense (which is not) is not one that can be proved by poking around his BBref page devoid of context.

There's also the fact that defensive metrics are notoriously suspect, which is why you have to have examinations like the Wages of Wins story and the Goldsberry story and other contextually-based analysis to go along with these numbers. When someone says something ike "his ORtg is consistently higher than his DRtg" it tells me that his analysis is garbage because he doesn't understand how the metrics work. That's hardly a verbiage thing, I would say.  ;)

The reason the verbiage is so important is that it's not actually a consistent measurement of anything. What defines "fine" win shares? What is a "decent" VORP? If you're going to convince me that David Lee is a net positive using advanced stats I would like to assume it takes more than "vague assessment in a positive fashion"

edit: also, I think we're all sympathetic to the idea that Lee is a good player. I want to be proven wrong. I want the Celtics to have snagged a good player. As of now, I don't believe that is the case.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 10:41:35 AM by D.o.s. »
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #476 on: July 09, 2015, 10:39:59 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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I am very familiar with BBref. The notion that Lee performs at an above average level via advanced stats is one that is taken by people that are less familiar, IMO. It depends on which stats you want to emphasize, how you want to emphasize them. the thesis that Lee's offense (which is great) is largely offset by his defense (which is not) is not one that can be proved by poking around his BBref page devoid of context.

There's also the fact that defensive metrics are notoriously suspect, which is why you have to have examinations like the Wages of Wins story and the Goldsberry story and other contextually-based analysis to go along with these numbers. When someone says something ike "his ORtg is consistently higher than his DRtg" it tells me that his analysis is garbage because he doesn't understand how the metrics work. That's hardly a verbiage thing, I would say.  ;)

The reason the verbiage is so important is that it's not actually a consistent measurement of anything. What defines "fine" win shares? What is a "decent" VORP? If you're going to convince me that David Lee is a net positive using advanced stats I want more effort than "vague assessment in a positive fashion"
fair enough
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #477 on: July 09, 2015, 10:53:16 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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There's also the fact that defensive metrics are notoriously suspect, which is why you have to have examinations like the Wages of Wins story and the Goldsberry story and other contextually-based analysis to go along with these numbers. When someone says something ike "his ORtg is consistently higher than his DRtg" it tells me that his analysis is garbage because he doesn't understand how the metrics work. That's hardly a verbiage thing, I would say.  ;)
To be precise, BBRef individual defensive metrics are strongly influenced by team defensive performance -- pretty much to the level of being effectively useless.

Their ORtg is probably half-decent, but offense has never been difficult to quantify.
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Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #478 on: July 09, 2015, 10:57:26 AM »

Offline Granath

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You are a blessing. I am glad that you are here to contribute positively to this discussion and respond well to criticism.

I'm so glad I could help. It beats pulling the cord on my chest and spouting the same unsupported phrase "David Lee sucks" for pages on end.
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: Celtics trade for David Lee
« Reply #479 on: July 09, 2015, 11:05:19 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Which I said as a stand alone statement once, in a different thread, and have since explained ad nauseum in at least three threads so far.  :)
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.