Author Topic: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?  (Read 5159 times)

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Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« on: February 21, 2019, 03:07:07 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I was thinking about this this morning, and then randomly nickagneta brought up a similar thing to me and a couple of other members:

What enjoyment comes out of constantly ripping our players?

Now, I get venting, and I get bashing the team after they don't put in effort.    The game threads can be ugly sometimes, but when you invest an evening in watching the team and they go through the motions, it's natural that some fans are going to be upset.  And in the off-season, I totally  understand when fans bash the team's moves.  If anything, it's the off-season that generates the most debate and difference of opinion, because there are no game results to base judgment on.  It's probably why the old CelticsBlog Draft got so fiery:  arguments that have no real data to judge the winner on are going to become impassioned.

So, exclude all of that.  What I'm more focused on is those who consistently "hate" our players no matter what, regardless of wins or losses, regardless of production, regardless of effort, etc.

Kyrie is the biggest target, of course.  He's got an entire subset of fans who seem to enjoy bashing Kyrie more than cheering on the team.  I get some of it:  He doesn't seem to "bleed green".  His personality leaves a lot to be desired at times.  He flirts with our hated opponents, like Lebron.  But, at what point do you say "he's a jerk, but he's our jerk" and just pull for the team?  A lot of folks *never* say anything good about Kyrie, but are the first to bash him when the team isn't playing well, or when he gives some random interview they don't like.

Certain subsets here on the forums direct their scorn at Hayward, or Horford, or Jaylen, or others.  Again, I'm not talking one comment, or even one critical thread.  I'm talking about dozens of comments, spread out over several threads.  And the worst part is, many of the bashers refuse to answer questions about their viewpoint, or review it in the face of new facts. 

So, here's your chance to be heard:  why do you do it?  Aren't we all rooting for the same thing?  Is it a schtick?  Is it because you gave a hot take at one point, and you're sticking with it through thick and thin?  Is it simply because it's the internet, and being hateful is just what's done?  Are you legitimately trying to convince others, or do you just enjoy the look of your own typing?

One word of caution:  this isn't meant as a "bash others" thread.  We don't want people called "fake fans", nor do we want "Poster X is the worst example of this".  I'm hoping for some thoughtful discussion.


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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2019, 03:16:10 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Weirdest Celtic season ever. 

I think some of the kyrie hate is a defense mechanism. People are afraid he is going to reject Boston so they are preemptively acting like they want him to leave.

With the other guys, people are frustrated that the team is significantly worse than they anticipated and want to lash out at someone.

I’m almost at the point where I think that if the team falls on their face, loses in the first round, sees kyrie flee, and gets stuck as a perpetually mediocre 45 win team lead by Tatum that never competes for a title - I’ll take solace in the fact some of my fellow Celtic fans deserved that outcome.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2019, 03:26:07 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-prove-it-really-is-a-thin-line-between-love-and-hate-976901.html

Quote
Love and hate are intimately linked within the human brain, according to a study that has discovered the biological basis for the two most intense emotions.

Scientists studying the physical nature of hate have found that some of the nervous circuits in the brain responsible for it are the same as those that are used during the feeling of romantic love – although love and hate appear to be polar opposites.

A study using a brain scanner to investigate the neural circuits that become active when people look at a photograph of someone they say they hate has found that the "hate circuit" shares something in common with the love circuit.
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2019, 03:28:50 PM »

Offline RPGenerate

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I think it honestly comes down to people taking sport WAAAAAAY too seriously. I understand if you're not fond of Kyrie, but the amount of time and posts some people on here dedicate to bashing Kyrie is borderline unhealthy. They act as if Kyrie beat them up and stole their girlfriend or something.
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2019, 03:34:18 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I think it honestly comes down to people taking sport WAAAAAAY too seriously. I understand if you're not fond of Kyrie, but the amount of time and posts some people on here dedicate to bashing Kyrie is borderline unhealthy. They act as if Kyrie beat them up and stole their girlfriend or something.
said a version of this on Reddit yesterday, but it reminds me of those boyfriends who secretly read all their girlfriend's private e-mails and facebook messages and are like, "Yo why are you still messaging your ex boyfriend and who the HELL is Kevin and why did you get lunch with him!?" and she all like, "Calm down, I was just saying hello to Bronny... and Kevin is my coworker... we were at a work event... we've known each other for years" and you're all like "BULLCRAP! Why are you holding up two fingers in this picture!? CLEARLY you too are planning on running away to New York together! Screw you Kyrie, get out of my house you tramp!"

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2019, 03:34:40 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think it's a combination of a few phenomenon coming into play:

1) Familiarity breeds contempt.

2) They're "our" guys so they're "ours" to beat up on -- I think some fans genuinely have that kind of relationship with the team (call it the "Felger and Mazz" contingent)

3) Expectations -- I think New England fans in particular have this complex where we have our personal identity and pride / shame bound up in the team, so when our team plays considerably worse than we have been led to expect based on our own impression of the team and what the national media is saying, it's embarassing / angering when they fall short of those expectations.

The national media piece is huge there -- I think many of us listen to guys like Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe.  I suspect that many fans here, like me, derive a lot of enjoyment from hearing media folks like that say nice, adoring things about the Celtics.  We've had a lot of that the past few years.  This year, we heard so much about how amazing the Celts were going to be.  Then the season began and it's been a rocky ride ever since.  Now national media folks, when they talk about the Celtics at all, talk about how much of a disappointing enigma the Celtics are.

To make matters worse, we've now got the most obnoxious elements of NBA social media -- Knicks fans, Lakers fans, and Celtics haters -- laughing and joking with glee about the notion that Kyrie is going to leave, dunking on Hayward for not being all the way back yet, saying Tatum is no better than Kyle Kuzma, etc.

It's all very different than I think most of us expected, and it feels like a bit of a psychic wound (that sounds so dramatic, but I think it's not inaccurate). Certainly it feels as though the Celtics aren't providing me with the regular boost of positive emotions that I was expecting they would provide during the winter months.

Because we're from New England, our response to feeling wounded is to get angry, cynical, and pessimistic rather than express sincere sadness or disappointment.



I know not all New England fans experience fandom the way I do, but I do think it's a fairly common dynamic.



Lastly I would say that it's not just about this year in particular; I think that many of us, myself included, bought into the idea that the core of this Celtics team is super stacked and is going to be great for years to come.

Yet what we've seen so far this season has really cast doubt on the notion that Kyrie - Brown - Tatum - Hayward - Horford is a five man group for the ages.  In fact, those guys haven't played particularly well when they've shared the court.

To make matters worse, other teams in the Conference, instead of being clearly inferior to the Celts as expected, have looked really good and actually added pieces as the year has gone on.  Which means the Celtics are squarely in the middle of the Eastern Conference playoff picture, rather than being at the top of it.  We expected to be royalty and instead we're an underdog, potentially an also-ran.  That feels like an indignity.

And now, of course, there's all the talk about maybe Kyrie leaving in the summer, which calls into question whether we'll even have the chance to see if that core group can grow together.  Though even if Kyrie stays Ainge will probably try to trade a couple of those guys for Anthony Davis.


So it goes.
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2019, 03:35:49 PM »

Offline liam

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I think a large part of the frustration is that our last championship squad was mostly old players that new how to mesh well. We have a very young team. Smart, Rozier, Brown, Tatum, Semi, Rozier, Yabu, and Williams are all 24 and younger. Kyrie is only 26. I think that leads to a lot of frustration. Most young teams don't have such high expectations.

I also think all the injuries have been very frustrating. Players have been playing hurt and that is also frustrating. Morris, Hayward, Irving,Brown, Smart, Williams Baynes, Yabu, and Rozier ( did I miss anyone?) have all had injuries through this year and some have played hurt.

I think that this Celtics squad if healthy is a championship contender. They've played very well in big games. That's a good sign for the playoffs were they are all big games.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2019, 03:38:40 PM »

Offline gpap

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I think, by and large, the silent majority in New England appreciates our athletes.

It's the outspoken minority that ruins it for everyone.

This is probably true in other passionate sport cities like NYC, Chicago and Philly.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2019, 03:42:00 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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We live in a terribly divided society in general. Where blue and red, up and down are pitted against each other 24/7.

Problem number one, Typed communication being used as the main vehicle of our speaking with each other. It's just too easy to misinterpret the tone of someone. And it's much too easy to not be held accountable for your poorly chosen, unintended words.     


 "I don't agree with you" quickly turns to a hurtful rude response.

Where if we were sitting around a table in a bar with a beer in hand the conversation would be much more civil. A middle ground would be easily found. Along with a middle ground that would unveil itself as "I just want the best Celtic team possible. I don't want to attack anyone."

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2019, 03:48:29 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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We live in a terribly divided society in general. Where blue and red, up and down are pitted against each other 24/7.

Problem number one, Typed communication being used as the main vehicle of our speaking with each other. It's just too easy to misinterpret the tone of someone. And it's much too easy to not be held accountable for your poorly chosen, unintended words.     


 "I don't agree with you" quickly turns to a hurtful rude response.

Where if we were sitting around a table in a bar with a beer in hand the conversation would be much more civil. A middle ground would be easily found. Along with a middle ground that would unveil itself as "I just want the best Celtic team possible. I don't want to attack anyone."

It's true, human beings are designed to interact with one another in person.

Much of our built in social abilities are left to the wayside when we communicate electronically.

People in general are much meaner online, and what they say seems much meaner than it would sound if they were saying it in person.
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2019, 03:48:35 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think it's a combination of a few phenomenon coming into play:

1) Familiarity breeds contempt.

2) They're "our" guys so they're "ours" to beat up on -- I think some fans genuinely have that kind of relationship with the team (call it the "Felger and Mazz" contingent)

3) Expectations -- I think New England fans in particular have this complex where we have our personal identity and pride / shame bound up in the team, so when our team plays considerably worse than we have been led to expect based on our own impression of the team and what the national media is saying, it's embarassing / angering when they fall short of those expectations.

The national media piece is huge there -- I think many of us listen to guys like Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe.  I suspect that many fans here, like me, derive a lot of enjoyment from hearing media folks like that say nice, adoring things about the Celtics.  We've had a lot of that the past few years.  This year, we heard so much about how amazing the Celts were going to be.  Then the season began and it's been a rocky ride ever since.  Now national media folks, when they talk about the Celtics at all, talk about how much of a disappointing enigma the Celtics are.

To make matters worse, we've now got the most obnoxious elements of NBA social media -- Knicks fans, Lakers fans, and Celtics haters -- laughing and joking with glee about the notion that Kyrie is going to leave, dunking on Hayward for not being all the way back yet, saying Tatum is no better than Kyle Kuzma, etc.

It's all very different than I think most of us expected, and it feels like a bit of a psychic wound (that sounds so dramatic, but I think it's not inaccurate). Certainly it feels as though the Celtics aren't providing me with the regular boost of positive emotions that I was expecting they would provide during the winter months.

Because we're from New England, our response to feeling wounded is to get angry, cynical, and pessimistic rather than express sincere sadness or disappointment.



I know not all New England fans experience fandom the way I do, but I do think it's a fairly common dynamic.



Lastly I would say that it's not just about this year in particular; I think that many of us, myself included, bought into the idea that the core of this Celtics team is super stacked and is going to be great for years to come.

Yet what we've seen so far this season has really cast doubt on the notion that Kyrie - Brown - Tatum - Hayward - Horford is a five man group for the ages.  In fact, those guys haven't played particularly well when they've shared the court.

To make matters worse, other teams in the Conference, instead of being clearly inferior to the Celts as expected, have looked really good and actually added pieces as the year has gone on.  Which means the Celtics are squarely in the middle of the Eastern Conference playoff picture, rather than being at the top of it.  We expected to be royalty and instead we're an underdog, potentially an also-ran.  That feels like an indignity.

And now, of course, there's all the talk about maybe Kyrie leaving in the summer, which calls into question whether we'll even have the chance to see if that core group can grow together.  Though even if Kyrie stays Ainge will probably try to trade a couple of those guys for Anthony Davis.


So it goes.
Excellent post. TP. But I still think you are missing the mark on what Roy is asking. I think this falls into the venting/bashing of the team due to expectations not being met, which Roy discussed. I think Roy is looking at something more specific regarding people posting negatively even when things were/are going good last year and this.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2019, 03:54:51 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I think a large part of the frustration is that our last championship squad was mostly old players that new how to mesh well.

Yeah but people hated them too. Not quite as deeply except for Ray (he was a whipping boy and subject of a million trade threads even before he left) but Pierce's iso play, KG "not being clutch" and "wearing down" were all prominent themes back then. Plus of course endless pro/anti-Rondo arguments. And Rasheed Wallace might've been the most vitriolically hated guy of all til he was nice enough to be a key part of our playoff run then retire with a couple years left on his deal.




I think hating players in general comes from the same place as declaring games lost, the season over, etc. It's defensive pessimism coupled with a reactionary tendency - when something bad happens, radically change what you're doing, just to feel like you're doing something. Fire the coach, fire the GM, bench, trade, cut the players - all would happen dozens of times a season if those posters were in charge. Agree with Pho's familiarity breeding contempt too - when you're sick of a guy, you can't escape him til the team dumps him. Easy to fall in love with potential instead.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2019, 04:06:19 PM »

Offline liam

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I think a large part of the frustration is that our last championship squad was mostly old players that new how to mesh well.

Yeah but people hated them too. Not quite as deeply except for Ray (he was a whipping boy and subject of a million trade threads even before he left) but Pierce's iso play, KG "not being clutch" and "wearing down" were all prominent themes back then. Plus of course endless pro/anti-Rondo arguments. And Rasheed Wallace might've been the most vitriolically hated guy of all til he was nice enough to be a key part of our playoff run then retire with a couple years left on his deal.

That 1st year 2007-2008, I remember being very positive with maybe some doubts about Perk and Rondo. That team was a juggernaut that just crushed everything in it's path. I do remember doubts folks had in the playoffs as we had a rough path. We played a really good Atlanta team in 7 games and then LeBron in 7 games and then a championship squad in the Pistons in 6.




Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2019, 04:06:57 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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But I still think you are missing the mark on what Roy is asking. I think this falls into the venting/bashing of the team due to expectations not being met, which Roy discussed. I think Roy is looking at something more specific regarding people posting negatively even when things were/are going good last year and this.


I'd put that in category (2) then.  I think for some people a big part of their enjoyment of the fan experience is actually hating on the players.


Part of this is a message board phenomenon, I think, as well.  People on message boards like to cultivate an "agenda" because it makes posting easier and it gets them more attention in threads than if they just kind of go along with the conversation.

The simplest sort of agenda you can have is leading a crusade for or against a specific player.

I still remember, years later, certain posters (no longer around) who were the biggest defenders of Rajon Rondo you could ever encounter.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 04:13:46 PM by PhoSita »
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2019, 04:27:10 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Weirdest Celtic season ever. 

I think some of the kyrie hate is a defense mechanism. People are afraid he is going to reject Boston so they are preemptively acting like they want him to leave.

There was a faction who hated passionately the minute the trade to bring him here leaked, though. It's odd.

The weirdest thing I come across is the attacks on players personally. It's one thing to critique their game, but it's another to insist a player has narcissistic personality disorder even though you've never had a conversation with them directly. It's an obsessive hatred I can't grasp and it feels like at times some posters invest more in watching a particular player fail to validate that hatred than they do in rooting for the team as a whole to succeed.
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