CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ScottHow on December 28, 2012, 03:13:51 PM
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Was the deep playoff run last year a bad thing overall?
Now I'll be one of the first to admit that a deep Celtics playoff run is one of the best/fun events in sports. But did it cost us in the long run?
Would we have been better off getting knocked out early and possibly starting a rebuilding process instead of loading up again?
Did last years run trick Ainge into thinking the window was still open?
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Not convinced the window is closed yet.
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Did last years run trick Ainge into thinking the window was still open?
The window is still open, but just a crack. If you could look at the Celtics and say they were playing well but just coming up short, that would mean it was over for them. But this is more like a couple years ago when the guys flat out did not compete some nights and the team was .500 for the last 2/3rds of the season.
Mike
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Did last years run trick Ainge into thinking the window was still open?
The window is still open, but just a crack. If you could look at the Celtics and say they were playing well but just coming up short, that would mean it was over for them. But this is more like a couple years ago when the guys flat out did not compete some nights and the team was .500 for the last 2/3rds of the season.
Mike
I sure hope you do not hold doc accountable for that. NOTHING is his fault! Did you not get the memo? ;D
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Nope.
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No. I don't think Ainge was tricked, but the ocational fan was.
Lots of fans point to the Celtics heroic playoff run where we took the Heat to 7 games before lossing the series.
It is important to the ocational fan to understand the following:
1. DRose got injured during the Philly/Chicago series.
2. The ocational fan seems to forget that the Sixers - a
much lesser team - took the Cs to 7 games.
3. Cs made a galant effort against Miami, but it always
felt like when Miami wanted - they shifted to a gear
our crew couldn't reach.....almost like toying with
us.
In the end, they(Miami) won the last two games going
away. Not even close....
..so, in short, DAinge wasn't fooled into believing, but the ocational fan was probably fooled by the Celtics deep run.
Maybe with ABradley would have been different, maybe not. We'll never really know...
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No. I don't think Ainge was tricked, but the ocational fan was.
Lots of fans point to the Celtics heroic playoff run where we took the Heat to 7 games before lossing the series.
It is important to the ocational fan to understand the following:
1. DRose got injured during the Philly/Chicago series.
2. The ocational fan seems to forget that the Sixers - a
much lesser team - took the Cs to 7 games.
3. Cs made a galant effort against Miami, but it always
felt like when Miami wanted - they shifted to a gear
our crew couldn't reach.....almost like toying with
us.
In the end, they(Miami) won the last two games going
away. Not even close....
..so, in short, DAinge wasn't fooled into believing, but the ocational fan was probably fooled by the Celtics deep run.
Maybe with ABradley would have been different, maybe not. We'll never really know...
Well if Ainge wasn't tricked, why did we load up again?
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No. I don't think Ainge was tricked, but the ocational fan was.
Lots of fans point to the Celtics heroic playoff run where we took the Heat to 7 games before lossing the series.
It is important to the ocational fan to understand the following:
1. DRose got injured during the Philly/Chicago series.
2. The ocational fan seems to forget that the Sixers - a
much lesser team - took the Cs to 7 games.
3. Cs made a galant effort against Miami, but it always
felt like when Miami wanted - they shifted to a gear
our crew couldn't reach.....almost like toying with
us.
In the end, they(Miami) won the last two games going
away. Not even close....
..so, in short, DAinge wasn't fooled into believing, but the ocational fan was probably fooled by the Celtics deep run.
Maybe with ABradley would have been different, maybe not. We'll never really know...
Well if Ainge wasn't tricked, why did we load up again?
All can be traded. Nothing that can't be undone.
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This is not a window but a peep hole.
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No. I don't think Ainge was tricked, but the ocational fan was.
Lots of fans point to the Celtics heroic playoff run where we took the Heat to 7 games before lossing the series.
It is important to the ocational fan to understand the following:
1. DRose got injured during the Philly/Chicago series.
2. The ocational fan seems to forget that the Sixers - a
much lesser team - took the Cs to 7 games.
3. Cs made a galant effort against Miami, but it always
felt like when Miami wanted - they shifted to a gear
our crew couldn't reach.....almost like toying with
us.
In the end, they(Miami) won the last two games going
away. Not even close....
..so, in short, DAinge wasn't fooled into believing, but the ocational fan was probably fooled by the Celtics deep run.
Maybe with ABradley would have been different, maybe not. We'll never really know...
our bench in the playoffs last year was Dooling, pietrus and Hollins...we had ray allen on one ankle and Pierce on one leg with a sprained MCL
and still took Miami to 7 games...in the end our lack of depth/injuries did us in..miami wasnt toying with us
notable injuries:
jeff green
chris wilcox
avery bradley(the guy who transformed our season)
Jermaine o'neal
sure you can say "well D-rose was injured, what if he wasn?" you can play the game of what-ifs all day. what if Jeff green/bradley/JO/wilcox/allen/pierce were all healthy?
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No, I don't think the playoff run was a bad thing nor do I think anyone was tricked.
I think the problem was Ainge had a HORRIBLE offseason. Looking back, acquiring Terry, Lee and Collins and resigning Bass and Green was just nowhere near good enough.
Especially when players like OJ Mayo and Jamaal Crawford (you know, the guy draining the 3s last night) were available.
Also, you look at the Clippers bench, and they are STACKED! The Celtics have no depth (at least not in the front court.)
Ainge just had a horrible offseason. What's more, Ainge has been doing a pretty horrendous job the last couple years.
He just decided to rest on this laurels and more or less recycle last year's team with a couple mediocre pick-ups instead of trying to make this year's team a championship caliber team
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No, I don't think the playoff run was a bad thing nor do I think anyone was tricked.
I think the problem was Ainge had a HORRIBLE offseason. Looking back, acquiring Terry, Lee and Collins and resigning Bass and Green was just nowhere near good enough.
Especially when players like OJ Mayo and Jamaal Crawford (you know, the guy draining the 3s last night) were available.
Also, you look at the Clippers bench, and they are STACKED! The Celtics have no depth (at least not in the front court.)
Ainge just had a horrible offseason. What's more, Ainge has been doing a pretty horrendous job the last couple years.
He just decided to rest on this laurels and more or less recycle last year's team with a couple mediocre pick-ups instead of trying to make this year's team a championship caliber team
We reportedly would have had Crawford or Mayo if Ray had made up his mind to stab us in the back earlier and allowed us to fully focus on them instead of waiting for him.
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No, I don't think the playoff run was a bad thing nor do I think anyone was tricked.
I think the problem was Ainge had a HORRIBLE offseason. Looking back, acquiring Terry, Lee and Collins and resigning Bass and Green was just nowhere near good enough.
Especially when players like OJ Mayo and Jamaal Crawford (you know, the guy draining the 3s last night) were available.
Also, you look at the Clippers bench, and they are STACKED! The Celtics have no depth (at least not in the front court.)
Ainge just had a horrible offseason. What's more, Ainge has been doing a pretty horrendous job the last couple years.
He just decided to rest on this laurels and more or less recycle last year's team with a couple mediocre pick-ups instead of trying to make this year's team a championship caliber team
We reportedly would have had Crawford or Mayo if Ray had made up his mind to stab us in the back earlier and allowed us to fully focus on them instead of waiting for him.
Crawford needs the ball to play well. I doubt he would work in our system.
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No, I don't think the playoff run was a bad thing nor do I think anyone was tricked.
I think the problem was Ainge had a HORRIBLE offseason. Looking back, acquiring Terry, Lee and Collins and resigning Bass and Green was just nowhere near good enough.
Especially when players like OJ Mayo and Jamaal Crawford (you know, the guy draining the 3s last night) were available.
Also, you look at the Clippers bench, and they are STACKED! The Celtics have no depth (at least not in the front court.)
Ainge just had a horrible offseason. What's more, Ainge has been doing a pretty horrendous job the last couple years.
He just decided to rest on this laurels and more or less recycle last year's team with a couple mediocre pick-ups instead of trying to make this year's team a championship caliber team
We reportedly would have had Crawford or Mayo if Ray had made up his mind to stab us in the back earlier and allowed us to fully focus on them instead of waiting for him.
Crawford needs the ball to play well. I doubt he would work in our system.
Lol, got news for you. Whatever our system is right now, it ain't workin!
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No, I don't think the playoff run was a bad thing nor do I think anyone was tricked.
I think the problem was Ainge had a HORRIBLE offseason. Looking back, acquiring Terry, Lee and Collins and resigning Bass and Green was just nowhere near good enough.
Especially when players like OJ Mayo and Jamaal Crawford (you know, the guy draining the 3s last night) were available.
Also, you look at the Clippers bench, and they are STACKED! The Celtics have no depth (at least not in the front court.)
Ainge just had a horrible offseason. What's more, Ainge has been doing a pretty horrendous job the last couple years.
He just decided to rest on this laurels and more or less recycle last year's team with a couple mediocre pick-ups instead of trying to make this year's team a championship caliber team
We reportedly would have had Crawford or Mayo if Ray had made up his mind to stab us in the back earlier and allowed us to fully focus on them instead of waiting for him.
That may be, but if that's the case, shame on Danny Ainge. As a GM, in my opinion you're not doing your job if you're getting "back stabbed" by a player (as much as I hate Ray Allen.)
As a GM, it's your job to understand when to continue trying to court a player and when to walk away and look elsewhere.
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No. I don't think Ainge was tricked, but the ocational fan was.
Lots of fans point to the Celtics heroic playoff run where we took the Heat to 7 games before lossing the series.
It is important to the ocational fan to understand the following:
1. DRose got injured during the Philly/Chicago series.
2. The ocational fan seems to forget that the Sixers - a
much lesser team - took the Cs to 7 games.
3. Cs made a galant effort against Miami, but it always
felt like when Miami wanted - they shifted to a gear
our crew couldn't reach.....almost like toying with
us.
In the end, they(Miami) won the last two games going
away. Not even close....
..so, in short, DAinge wasn't fooled into believing, but the ocational fan was probably fooled by the Celtics deep run.
Maybe with ABradley would have been different, maybe not. We'll never really know...
what is ocational???? You mean occasional?
we have discussed this ad nauseum here. we played much better against the heat than the sixers. we outplayed the heat in 4 straight games(2 through 5).
no spin will change that. Did we lose the series anyway? yes. Do we need to improve? yes.
Injuries are part of the game man. You think when the magic beat us in 2009 their fans and players discredited it because KG was out? You think the Lakers discredited their title because they beat the magic who beat us without KG? Of course not. You think the heat discredited beating us last year because allen, Kg and PP were playing hurt? What about the year before when rondo played with one arm? Using your analogy no team can ever get full credit for what they do because they most probably beat a team with a good player playing hurt or out at some point in time.
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Nope.
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Deep playoff runs are never a bad thing, even our 2002 one.
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Was the deep playoff run last year a bad thing overall?
Now I'll be one of the first to admit that a deep Celtics playoff run is one of the best/fun events in sports. But did it cost us in the long run?
Would we have been better off getting knocked out early and possibly starting a rebuilding process instead of loading up again?
Did last years run trick Ainge into thinking the window was still open?
There was no "trick" in last year's playoffs. Some will argue that we got lucky because ATL didn't have Horford and the Bulls didn't have Rose. OK - well we didn't have KG in 2009, so the teams in the EC Finals that year must not have been good teams, right?
Our team was playing .700 basketball in the second half of the season last year, and was putting up historic defensive numbers. We were legitimately a championship contender. After AB went down the team shifted back to a less dynamic threat but we still were dangerous.
Taking Miami to the 4th quarter of a Game 7 on their home court...when they were the HANDS DOWN favorite to win the title, proved without a doubt the team still had it.
We will be fine. Just get to the playoffs, higher than a 7 or 8 seed.
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When you have a shot at a championship, you have to go for it. Blowing up last year's team would have been a mistake.
Let's say we started rebuilding. What's the realistic long-term goal? To be back in the same position as last year's team (competing for a trip to the Finals) within five years?
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They ended up a little better than I thought they would, mostly because of injuries to the most important players of our opponents at just the right time.
We were, and still are, around the 8th-10th best team in the league, stuck in nowhere land, on a downward trend.
So, the playoff run might not have been a bad thing per se, but it probably warped peopleīs perception of this teamīs true capabilities.
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They ended up a little better than I thought they would, mostly because of injuries to the most important players of our opponents at just the right time.
We were, and still are, around the 8th-10th best team in the league, stuck in nowhere land, on a downward trend.
So, the playoff run might not have been a bad thing per se, but it probably warped peopleīs perception of this teamīs true capabilities.
lets not forget, at this point last year the team was in WORSE position than we are now...fans were calling kg/pierce done and for us to blow up the team
once KG was moved to center/Bradley started in allens place we went on a 70% win streak to close the season...and became true contendors.
which is why I see no reason to panic right now. lets see how the team looks by all-star break. once bradley comes back and we move Terry back to the bench this team may look different
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They ended up a little better than I thought they would, mostly because of injuries to the most important players of our opponents at just the right time.
We were, and still are, around the 8th-10th best team in the league, stuck in nowhere land, on a downward trend.
So, the playoff run might not have been a bad thing per se, but it probably warped peopleīs perception of this teamīs true capabilities.
lets not forget, at this point last year the team was in WORSE position than we are now...fans were calling kg/pierce done and for us to blow up the team
once KG was moved to center/Bradley started in allens place we went on a 70% win streak to close the season...and became true contendors.
which is why I see no reason to panic right now. lets see how the team looks by all-star break. once bradley comes back and we move Terry back to the bench this team may look different
You know, Iīve tried to begin this post several times with a different start, but thereīs just no point in arguing that we somehow became "true contenders". It would take me at least 2 hours to explain all the different angles as to why this is a nonsensical narrative (partly due to the fact that english isnīt my first language), considering that all the "arguments" would undoubtedly come up, and Iīve been through this before.
We were as much a contender as the Detroit Pistons in 2010. Being streaky is the mark of an once great team (much like it is for extremely talented, young teams). In the end, quality trumps chemistry, energy and experience.
If the stars align, then yes, we could actually win a championship. The same is true for ten other teams in the league. Banking on that is like calling a lottery ticket a financial investment, though.
The difference between us and the Atlanta Hawks or Philadelphia 76ers is, that we simply donīt have the time to fool around, as our best players are all past their expiration date. All we effectively do is to waste our best chance to keep an inevitable(!) rebuild as short as possible.
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They ended up a little better than I thought they would, mostly because of injuries to the most important players of our opponents at just the right time.
We were, and still are, around the 8th-10th best team in the league, stuck in nowhere land, on a downward trend.
So, the playoff run might not have been a bad thing per se, but it probably warped peopleīs perception of this teamīs true capabilities.
lets not forget, at this point last year the team was in WORSE position than we are now...fans were calling kg/pierce done and for us to blow up the team
once KG was moved to center/Bradley started in allens place we went on a 70% win streak to close the season...and became true contendors.
which is why I see no reason to panic right now. lets see how the team looks by all-star break. once bradley comes back and we move Terry back to the bench this team may look different
You know, Iīve tried to begin this post several times with a different start, but thereīs just no point in arguing that we somehow became "true contenders". It would take me at least 2 hours to explain all the different angles as to why this is a nonsensical narrative (partly due to the fact that english isnīt my first language), considering that all the "arguments" would undoubtedly come up, and Iīve been through this before.
We were as much a contender as the Detroit Pistons in 2010. Being streaky is the mark of an once great team (much like it is for extremely talented, young teams).
In the end, quality trumps chemistry, energy and experience.
If the stars align, then yes, we could actually win a championship. The same is true for ten other teams in the league. Banking on that is like calling a lottery ticket a financial investment, though.
The difference between us and the Atlanta Hawks or Philadelphia 76ers is, that we simply donīt have the time to fool around, as our best players are all past their expiration date. All we effectively do is to waste our best chance to keep an inevitable(!) rebuild as short as possible.
I don't think it was streaky.
I think was Avery Bradley emerging as a fourth impact player for the team. Something that Rondo, Garnett and Pierce badly needed. It was that extra weapon that took the team from good playoff team (4th-6th seed; maybe win a round, maybe not) to a title contender (2nd in East to Miami). It was that extra weapon that gave them that consistency.
I thought Avery played at a level contemporary with a top 10 shooting guard in the league during those final months of the season (in addition to Pierce, KG and Rondo being top 5 players at their respective positions). Avery was a huge difference maker with his impact defensively and highly efficient role player level offense.
Emmm ... For me, it wasn't about inconsistency but the addition of an extra weapon that helped bring them to that next level.
Whether Avery will be able to maintain that individual performance / impact, I am optimistic but we'll have to wait and see. We'll know more about the team then. One way or the other.
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ya, streaky isnt the right word I would use to describe our team last year..
the first half, yes we were a sub .500 team....but winning 70% of our games to end the season and playing some of the best defense of the big 3 era is not streaky....in the end injuries/age just got to us.
if we go on another 60-70% win streak once bradley comes back, I think we would be contenders then as well.
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ya, streaky isnt the right word I would use to describe our team last year..
the first half, yes we were a sub .500 team....but winning 70% of our games to end the season and playing some of the best defense of the big 3 era is not streaky....in the end injuries/age just got to us.
if we go on another 60-70% win streak once bradley comes back, I think we would be contenders then as well.
That statement is good to pick out, because itīs one of the arguments I meant that I donīt want to get into.
No, it wasnīt just us being streaky, itīs never just one thing.
And we didnīt just win because AB was an "impact player" all of a sudden. If anything, Docīs stroke of genius to change our set-up completely mid-way through the season played as much of a role as the turn-around of individual players for one last hurrah after hitting rock bottom. Teams had to figure us out once again, an advantage that quickly vanished once we were locked into a 7 game series with a good team. It might sound cliche, but most of the game is still played in the head.
Exactly one year ago, everyone and their mother called Bradley a bust. Then he played a few months, was injured, now heīs the saviour. Youīre in for a rude awakening.
That even a smart guy like Who considers AB a solution to our problems after only 4 months of NBA play is all you need to know...and I like Bradley as much as the next guy.
You remember Rodney Stuckey? He was the saviour for that 2010 Pistons team.
Isnīt it funny that now that all the excuses of last season are null and void, ABīs absence is the best we got?
I also donīt want to get into all the other reasons why bringing up a percentage win record for the closing games of a shortened season is also nonsensical.
in the end injuries/age just got to us.
Yeah, who wouldīve thought?
Itīs almost as if regular season wins donīt matter at all. Oh wait, they donīt.
In my opinion, that is exactly the kind of twisted narrative that leads to this assertion that "we still got it". Age isnīt going away. Injuries are more likely to get to us than other teams. Other teams lost their star players at just the right time, we lost only bench players, yet itīs apparently a viable argument to say we still got it because we made it to the ECF, and even worse, to extrapolate our luck last season into this season.
These discussions are a textbook example of how even well-managed teams find themselves in the middle of a 10-year-rebuild plan all of a sudden. You canīt be a bit over the hill, just like you canīt be a bit pregnant.
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Yes. And I don't think Danny was really, deep-down, deluded--but Wyc might have been.
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Casperian, one of those so called "genius" changes was putting Bradley in the starting lineup...the stats SHOW that with him in the lineup the team posted scary defensive numbers.
Why is it whenever someone mentions avery bradley people on this board are so quick to brush away his excellent play last season...and continue to harp why he wont help us?
Rondo, Doc and Kevin Garnett think they will be a different team with bradley...why should I believe some posters on this site over them?
Bradley IS an elite defender: Fact
whether his offense returns to the level it was last year we will see...but his defense will NEVER fault him.
and really thats all we are needing with him.
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These discussions are a textbook example of how even well-managed teams find themselves in the middle of a 10-year-rebuild plan all of a sudden. You canīt be a bit over the hill, just like you canīt be a bit pregnant.
Don't feel like quoting the whole thing, but I agree with your take Casperian. I don't fault Danny for giving it his best shot to reload with limited assets at his disposal. We did, after all, nearly eliminate the Heat last year, so it's not like it was imprudent to give it one last go. In hind sight (or at least present sight), it appears that we just don't have the horses to be legitimate contenders right now. Sure, Bradley will make us better, but IMO doesn't get us by real contenders. The main problem, as it was always bound to be, is that you go as far as your superstars take you. Sure, it's great to have excellent complimentary pieces, and they can be difference makers, but still you need superstars performing like superstars. Two of our three superstars are well past their primes. Sure, they each can still have flashback games. That's the way it goes with aging players. But they don't bring superstar level games night in and night out. Not even close. Terry, to me, is much less than advertised (and well beyond his prime, too). Green is nowhere near a 9M player. Lee is perhaps less than I expected, but I do like his defense, and I think his offense can come around. He may be somewhat overpaid, but not, on the whole a terrible signing. Plus, he's not beyond his prime.
Mainly, we've got a lot invested in players way beyond their primes, and we should expect diminishing returns each succeeding year. So, though last year's team made a great run, I don't find it at all shocking that they would not be having that kind of success this year. Sure, our aging guys are not shot yet, but neither are they dominant like they once were. So, to the original question by the OP, though the deep playoff run was great fun, and really gratifying, looking at the long term ramifications, it delayed our inevitable rebuild some. Like I said, though, I don't fault Danny for giving it another go, as close as we came to knocking off the Heat.
He's got a month and a half to figure out whether he thinks this window is still open, or closed for good with PP and KG as main cogs. If he feels it's closed for good with what's left of our Big 3, then every move he takes should be with an eye toward building our NEXT real window of contention, which would likely involve moves that would displease KG and PP. I think if Danny doesn't see dramatic improvement over the next month to month and a half, the rebuild will begin, and at that point, my guess is that KG and PP will want no part of being part of a rebuilding process. They may actually request to be moved, and I could see KG (and possibly PP) retiring (and leaving money on the table) if he/they are not going to play for a contender.