CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: KGBirdBias on November 06, 2018, 02:18:32 PM
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It's not a panic move but more of a move to bring Kyrie and Hayward up to speed. You're paying these guys big money, let them earn it for now.
Smart
Kyrie
Hayward
Horford
Baynes
If Stevens goes to Brown and Tatum at the same time it may make for a smoother transition. His reasoning can be to get Irving and Hayward back into their mentality of being the #1 and #2 scorers. Then over time, he can bring Brown and Tatum back into the starting unit.
I just think it's hard for these two coming back from injury to get back in stride when their shots are being split up. It will make all four of them be more assertive with the first and second units. Brown and Tatum would be the go-to guys on the second unit. Stevens can still finish the game with all of them.
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TP for thinking outside of the box.
Hayward needs to start and figure out how it works. He is slowly, getting less tentative, but, might be deferring too often to get some shooting rhythm.
I think a lot of the players are concerned with "spreading the ball" and it should be more about "scoring."
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We have two teams....it is time for the coach to act and coach like it.
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Actually, yeah, benching two of your 5 best players is a panic move
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Actually, yeah, benching two of your 5 best players is a panic move
`at some point with super teams you are going to have to stop thinking about this as benching. You are merely changing the role of players.
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I like this idea a lot more than sending Hayward to the G league. I don’t think it will happen, but I can see the reasoning behind this idea. The starting lineup would have two dirt dogs in it who don’t care about scoring. I like the balance this way. It would never happen though.
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I like this idea a lot more than sending Hayward to the G league.
I sure hope this doesn’t become the benchmark ;D
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Why are we obsessing over something that won’t and shouldn’t happen?
End of first quarter differential:
PHI 0
TOR +7
NYK +13
ORL -9
OKC -6
DET +9
DET +3
MIL +7
IND +10
DEN +15
We lead by 4.9 points after Q1 (that extrapolates to +19.6PPG), so this tired rhetoric that we get off to sluggish starts and that the starting unit is getting killed is clearly a misnomer.
Only one game we lost because of a poor start (Orlando). The other (OKC) we overcame and the rest of our losses came after the first. If you want to complain about us coughing up leads, that’s an entirely different story regarding Stevens substitutions.
Jaylen is the only one with a negative BPM, and there’s no reason to demote a kid (who’s 2 weeks past his 22nd birthday coming off an impressive playoff run) 10 games into the season. Likewise, Hayward is getting back into game shape mentally and physically and demoting him is also counterproductive to what our goal is. He needs to play against the best and with the guys who he’s going to get the most run with.
I surely hope Ainge has already decided to not tender a QO to Rozier; the guy is shooting 35.5% after 10 games! Can we just cut him already?
And Rozier is a sharpshooter compared to Smart. I mean seriously, can’t some of us shoot 18.5% from beyond the arc? If Ainge doesn’t trade him January 15th, Wyc should seriously consider firing him. Worst contract ever?!?
But seriously, it’s 10 games! Everyone needs to sit back and relax. Hot takes after every game (win or lose) are not going to change anything. I’d be worried if we were playing well and still losing. Our defense has been mostly great, and our offense has been mostly bad. We have been one of the worst teams in the league at open threes, something that clearly will not continue that much longer.
The personnel isn’t wrong. This team has been built correctly. Starters and bench. Absolutely no reason for a panic move, which is exactly what changing the starting unit would be.
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Why are we obsessing over something that won’t and shouldn’t happen?
End of first quarter differential:
PHI 0
TOR +7
NYK +13
ORL -9
OKC -6
DET +9
DET +3
MIL +7
IND +10
DEN +15
We lead by 4.9 points after Q1 (that extrapolates to +19.6PPG), so this tired rhetoric that we get off to sluggish starts and that the starting unit is getting killed is clearly a misnomer.
Only one game we lost because of a poor start (Orlando). The other (OKC) we overcame and the rest of our losses came after the first. If you want to complain about us coughing up leads, that’s an entirely different story regarding Stevens substitutions.
Jaylen is the only one with a negative BPM, and there’s no reason to demote a kid (who’s 2 weeks past his 22nd birthday coming off an impressive playoff run) 10 games into the season. Likewise, Hayward is getting back into game shape mentally and physically and demoting him is also counterproductive to what our goal is. He needs to play against the best and with the guys who he’s going to get the most run with.
I surely hope Ainge has already decided to not tender a QO to Rozier; the guy is shooting 35.5% after 10 games! Can we just cut him already?
And Rozier is a sharpshooter compared to Smart. I mean seriously, can’t some of us shoot 18.5% from beyond the arc? If Ainge doesn’t trade him January 15th, Wyc should seriously consider firing him. Worst contract ever?!?
But seriously, it’s 10 games! Everyone needs to sit back and relax. Hot takes after every game (win or lose) are not going to change anything. I’d be worried if we were playing well and still losing. Our defense has been mostly great, and our offense has been mostly bad. We have been one of the worst teams in the league at open threes, something that clearly will not continue that much longer.
The personnel isn’t wrong. This team has been built correctly. Starters and bench. Absolutely no reason for a panic move, which is exactly what changing the starting unit would be.
I basically agree with everything you said, lol. The overreactions aren't especially surprising, but some of the takes have been extra hot.
What I don't think is an overreaction is the desire to see Rozier moved. He has clearly not bought into his role, and has regressed back to being an inefficient chucker who gets some of the worst tunnel-vision in the league, despite showing promise in the playoffs.
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The overreactions aren't especially surprising, but some of the takes have been extra hot.
We've always had a lot of sky is falling types here.
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Why are we obsessing over something that won’t and shouldn’t happen?
End of first quarter differential:
PHI 0
TOR +7
NYK +13
ORL -9
OKC -6
DET +9
DET +3
MIL +7
IND +10
DEN +15
We lead by 4.9 points after Q1 (that extrapolates to +19.6PPG), so this tired rhetoric that we get off to sluggish starts and that the starting unit is getting killed is clearly a misnomer.
Only one game we lost because of a poor start (Orlando). The other (OKC) we overcame and the rest of our losses came after the first. If you want to complain about us coughing up leads, that’s an entirely different story regarding Stevens substitutions.
Jaylen is the only one with a negative BPM, and there’s no reason to demote a kid (who’s 2 weeks past his 22nd birthday coming off an impressive playoff run) 10 games into the season. Likewise, Hayward is getting back into game shape mentally and physically and demoting him is also counterproductive to what our goal is. He needs to play against the best and with the guys who he’s going to get the most run with.
I surely hope Ainge has already decided to not tender a QO to Rozier; the guy is shooting 35.5% after 10 games! Can we just cut him already?
And Rozier is a sharpshooter compared to Smart. I mean seriously, can’t some of us shoot 18.5% from beyond the arc? If Ainge doesn’t trade him January 15th, Wyc should seriously consider firing him. Worst contract ever?!?
But seriously, it’s 10 games! Everyone needs to sit back and relax. Hot takes after every game (win or lose) are not going to change anything. I’d be worried if we were playing well and still losing. Our defense has been mostly great, and our offense has been mostly bad. We have been one of the worst teams in the league at open threes, something that clearly will not continue that much longer.
The personnel isn’t wrong. This team has been built correctly. Starters and bench. Absolutely no reason for a panic move, which is exactly what changing the starting unit would be.
I basically agree with everything you said, lol. The overreactions aren't especially surprising, but some of the takes have been extra hot.
What I don't think is an overreaction is the desire to see Rozier moved. He has clearly not bought into his role, and has regressed back to being an inefficient chucker who gets some of the worst tunnel-vision in the league, despite showing promise in the playoffs.
Wait, you'll are really focusing on Rozier being the problem? You can't be serious...what games are you watching? He's like 5th on the list of our problems. LOL
Stop jacking 3s and a lot of our problems go away...period!!
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The only change I might consider is to move Baynes into the starting lineup to pump up the staring defense and moving Tatum or Hayward to the bench to be the offensive focus of the second unit.
I would still play them the same amount of minutes.
Other issues is the lack of a trust worthy big man off the bench with Theis out.
But at this point, I wouldn't make that move yet.
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No.
Don't give in to the panic reflex.
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No.
Don't give in to the panic reflex.
Why keep calling it a panic reflex?
I (and others) have wanted to have a starting line-up with 2 bigs since the summer of '17.
It's just that the argument has started again now that things aren't going as well as we all hoped. I have always wanted a more balanced rotation.
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It's not a panic move but more of a move to bring Kyrie and Hayward up to speed. You're paying these guys big money, let them earn it for now.
Smart
Kyrie
Hayward
Horford
Baynes
If Stevens goes to Brown and Tatum at the same time it may make for a smoother transition. His reasoning can be to get Irving and Hayward back into their mentality of being the #1 and #2 scorers. Then over time, he can bring Brown and Tatum back into the starting unit.
I just think it's hard for these two coming back from injury to get back in stride when their shots are being split up. It will make all four of them be more assertive with the first and second units. Brown and Tatum would be the go-to guys on the second unit. Stevens can still finish the game with all of them.
This is an excellent idea. Adding Smart gives additional playmaking, ball handling and no loss of defense. Allow Kyrie and Hayward to either sink or swim running the show.
When Tatum and Brown come into the game, allow them to drive the offense just like they did last year in the playoffs. Without both Kyrie and Hayward. Maybe Horford plays with them.
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I've seen enough of these starters. As I originally said, we have no dogs in the starting lineup. All of them want to score 20.
Can Stevens coach when he has this kind of talent? How about shaking it up Brad.
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I think the time has probably come to try bringing Hayward off the bench and start either Smart or Terry.
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team is obviously not responding well to the favoritism of benching guys that got the team to the ECF last season.
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I think 2 starters need to go to bench. We need more guys who are going to do the little things...not just jack shots. I still say Brown and Tatum to the bench and force Hayward and Kyrie to get going.
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I think the time has probably come to try bringing Hayward off the bench and start either Smart or Terry.
Definitely Smart over Terry. Terry is flat out trash
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I'm beginning to question is Kyrie a leader of men? I see his skill but does he bring qualities that promote team and winning basketball? How could this team play so well without him last year?
Can Brad coach this group to the next level?
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I'm beginning to question is Kyrie a leader of men? I see his skill but does he bring qualities that promote team and winning basketball? How could this team play so well without him last year?
Can Brad coach this group to the next level?
He was part of that 16-win streak.
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Too many chiefs, not enough Indians
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All I'm saying is I'd like to see more assist from Kyrie. Get the other guys going first, then he can start closing games.
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All I'm saying is I'd like to see more assist from Kyrie. Get the other guys going first, then he can start closing games.
How? He passes, and they miss. What more can he do? He's doing his part in the assists, it's just we're terrible. He is one of 2 guys I trust on offence at this stage.
This criticism makes no sense to me
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All I'm saying is I'd like to see more assist from Kyrie. Get the other guys going first, then he can start closing games.
How? He passes, and they miss. What more can he do? He's doing his part in the assists, it's just we're terrible. He is one of 2 guys I trust on offence at this stage.
This criticism makes no sense to me
Lol, yeah, his playmaking and passing has actually been stellar. Problem is others just can't finish it off.
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All I'm saying is I'd like to see more assist from Kyrie. Get the other guys going first, then he can start closing games.
How? He passes, and they miss. What more can he do? He's doing his part in the assists, it's just we're terrible. He is one of 2 guys I trust on offence at this stage.
This criticism makes no sense to me
Lol, yeah, his playmaking and passing has actually been stellar. Problem is others just can't finish it off.
I'm surprised he's been averaging as many assists as he has been this year, considering how pathetic JT, JB, Horford, Hayward, Rozier and Baynes have been offensively
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All I'm saying is I'd like to see more assist from Kyrie. Get the other guys going first, then he can start closing games.
How? He passes, and they miss. What more can he do? He's doing his part in the assists, it's just we're terrible. He is one of 2 guys I trust on offence at this stage.
This criticism makes no sense to me
Lol, yeah, his playmaking and passing has actually been stellar. Problem is others just can't finish it off.
Pretty spot on. You can't get assists if guys you set up don't make shots.
I am not sure in the 40 years I have been watching basketball I have seen a team miss this many wide open shots(threes and layups) ever over a period this long.
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No sorry I don't see assists. I see guys going one on one and then missed shots. I get it you cant get an assist with a missed shot, that's easy. I'm talking about getting the team into better shots. Kyrie is a shoot first PG.
We're missing shots because no one wants to drive or take midrange shots. Everyone is trying to get 5 pt baskets.
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I'm beginning to question is Kyrie a leader of men? I see his skill but does he bring qualities that promote team and winning basketball? How could this team play so well without him last year?
This take looks really bad right now
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No sorry I don't see assists. I see guys going one on one and then missed shots. I get it you cant get an assist with a missed shot, that's easy. I'm talking about getting the team into better shots. Kyrie is a shoot first PG.
We're missing shots because no one wants to drive or take midrange shots. Everyone is trying to get 5 pt baskets.
This comment didn't age well.
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Hayward was sitting at the end of the game. They're better without him right now. I hope he volunteers to come off the bench until he gets his groove back and makes the decision easier for Brad.
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It's not a panic move but more of a move to bring Kyrie and Hayward up to speed. You're paying these guys big money, let them earn it for now.
Smart
Kyrie
Hayward
Horford
Baynes
If Stevens goes to Brown and Tatum at the same time it may make for a smoother transition. His reasoning can be to get Irving and Hayward back into their mentality of being the #1 and #2 scorers. Then over time, he can bring Brown and Tatum back into the starting unit.
I just think it's hard for these two coming back from injury to get back in stride when their shots are being split up. It will make all four of them be more assertive with the first and second units. Brown and Tatum would be the go-to guys on the second unit. Stevens can still finish the game with all of them.
I would go with Irving, Smart, Horford, Tatum, and Baynes.
That makes us much more physical to start.
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Hayward was sitting at the end of the game. They're better without him right now. I hope he volunteers to come off the bench until he gets his groove back and makes the decision easier for Brad.
Morris hit the shot to send to overtime AND Hayward was at 25 minutes already.
Yeah, I think Brad is going to bring him off the bench moving forward. And they are gonna send Tatum to Maine.
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No sorry I don't see assists. I see guys going one on one and then missed shots. I get it you cant get an assist with a missed shot, that's easy. I'm talking about getting the team into better shots. Kyrie is a shoot first PG.
We're missing shots because no one wants to drive or take midrange shots. Everyone is trying to get 5 pt baskets.
This comment didn't age well.
Nope, Kyrie did what he's suppose to do...close the game. That's the way the games should finish. I stick by my comments because most teams will close them out if they play like that for 3 and a half quarters.
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Anyone still want to question why I originally said change the starters? They get in these deep holes and then it's a uphill battle from there.
It's time to have that talk Brad. Tatum and/or Brown are the ones to change for now. Baynes and Smart in. Let Hayward figure it out in his normal role of a primary scorer. He needs that self confidence reinforced. Brown and Tatum can light up the second unit.
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Anyone still want to question why I originally said change the starters? They get in these deep holes and then it's a uphill battle from there.
It's time to have that talk Brad. Tatum and/or Brown are the ones to change for now. Baynes and Smart in. Let Hayward figure it out in his normal role of a primary scorer. He needs that self confidence reinforced. Brown and Tatum can light up the second unit.
I wouldn't start Smart and Baynes. Too many non-shooters. I'd rather start Morris than Smart, as it's a like for like swap
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Forget going more offense, if that was the case there shouldn't be a change. We need more defense to establish and dictate the game. The objective is to get Kyrie and Hayward back to being relied upon and have defense to stay in early. Shots will eventually fall and it helps our bench.
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We are playing like a West Coast team and not a East Coast team. We've turned into a soft, jump shooting team.
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We are playing like a West Coast team and not a East Coast team. We've turned into a soft, jump shooting team.
We're barely playing like an NBA team ;)
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I've been saying basically all season that Brown should come off the bench with Smart starting so I'd do that. Against the teams like Detroit I'd start Baynes over Smart
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Last thing this team needs is to be shooting on a crooked rim for a half.
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We may be a sub-500 team by the end of the week :-\
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I'm sorry but if Kyrie is going to run this offense, he's responsible for getting the team good shots down the stretch, not chuck it up every chance he gets. When he's hot, he should be the closer, but tonight Tatum had it going and barely touched it down the stretch.
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I tired of seeing big slow guys dunking and shooting layups because our front line is so small.
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I'm sorry but if Kyrie is going to run this offense, he's responsible for getting the team good shots down the stretch, not chuck it up every chance he gets. When he's hot, he should be the closer, but tonight Tatum had it going and barely touched it down the stretch.
That is just as much on CBS not running literally any plays for him. You can’t seriously blame one player for the majority of our guys having the inability to hit the side of a barn
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I’d start Baynes over Brown.
Irving/ Tatum/ Hayward/ Horford/ Baynes is a handful in the half court and won’t get bullied down low. Clearer pecking order for shots.
Smart/ Rozier/ Brown/ Morris/ Theis/ Williams become the athletic running bench.
Swap full lineups to keep things simpler.
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Forget going more offense, if that was the case there shouldn't be a change. We need more defense to establish and dictate the game. The objective is to get Kyrie and Hayward back to being relied upon and have defense to stay in early. Shots will eventually fall and it helps our bench.
We held a team that was averaging 117 points per game to 100 points. Defense in the starting lineup isn't the problem, hitting shots is.
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Morris deserve to be a starter. Maybe over brown.
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I would love to start Baynes. I haven’t checked the stats but it wouldn’t surprise me if:
A. Bigs are absolutely feasting on us
B. We’re losing the rebounding battle consistently
Bring Brown or Hayward off the bench. Better floor balance in the second unit too.
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Morris deserve to be a starter. Maybe over brown.
Why? So that Morris can sit in a corner on offense being used as a fifth offensive option and not even touch the ball on offense for 8-10 minutes at a time like Brown? Morris is exceptional in his current role. Wouldn't change a thing about Morris.
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I would love to start Baynes. I haven’t checked the stats but it wouldn’t surprise me if:
A. Bigs are absolutely feasting on us
B. We’re losing the rebounding battle consistently
Bring Brown or Hayward off the bench. Better floor balance in the second unit too.
Boston is currently 7th in the league in DRb% and 23rd in ORb%.
The rebounding isn't great but it's not near the top of the lists of worries for this team right now.
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You wonder if we started:
Kyrie
Smart
Tatum
Horford
Baynes
And had Hayward and Brown on the second unit, that might be a better distribution of our players plus better defense and rebounding on the first unit. Plus right now I don't think Brown has the slightest clue where he fits in with the starting 5, it's def a struggle.
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Morris deserve to be a starter. Maybe over brown.
Why? So that Morris can sit in a corner on offense being used as a fifth offensive option and not even touch the ball on offense for 8-10 minutes at a time like Brown? Morris is exceptional in his current role. Wouldn't change a thing about Morris.
So we don't start a game 2-15.
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Brown plays well sporadically, he'll have a nice 7-8 minutes then he loses energy or concentration and he's gone. I just don't see him becoming what some of you people envision. He should come off the bench IMO. I hate to lose his defense.
It's difficult for a PG to be a facilitator and be the main go-to scorer. Add Smart to the lineup and have him help with distributing the ball. He's a very good passer in the paint and a good defender. Kyrie can, at times, slide to the 2 guard position.
Tatum at the 3. If he shows poor defense, sit him and put Hayward in.
Al at the PF position, another good passer. Let Morris back him up.
Start Baynes... while you look for his replacement. He plays solid positional defense, but little else.
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I think for Brown it's mostly just not understanding what his role is in this starting 5. I just look to last year's playoffs to know what he can do when he is definitively one of the top dogs. He was a beast out there at times.
This year he's maybe the 4th option in this starting 5 and is struggling to get into any kind of rhythm.