Author Topic: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available  (Read 17747 times)

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Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2019, 08:56:08 AM »

Offline Androslav

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Kind of funny to see a debate about Moses and Bird in a thread about Kevin Love. Talk about off-topic.

Back on topic: I have no interest in Kevin Love at his salary, nor for any role on this team. His skill set isn't something the Celtics have a great need for. But I'd also be surprised if Portland could use him either. I'm not sure what he brings to the game that they aren't already getting from Melo so far.

The bottom line is I just don't see much of a market out there for Love. He's drastically overpaid and nowhere near as useful as he once was.
If Cleveland throws in some unprotected 1sts they might get out of his contract.
But they are in no hurry since they will be bad for at some 4-5 years at least.
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Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2019, 11:28:20 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I was 17-18 during those two Malone MVPs. I love Larry, but those two years, Malone was a much bigger difference maker on his team as well as through the year in the league.

No TS%, WS, RPM, BPM, PER, etc existed back then. You watched the game and got the raw box scores. Going off what I saw of Moses during that time(because, remember, there was no ESPN for highlights or League Pass to watch any game you want or NBA Network to discuss and watch ball or ESPN or TNT putting on multiple national games of the week, so you got to see players much less) he was more deserving of the MVP than Bird was. Heck, even in 80-81, Moses probably deserved it that year too, over Dr. J.
Interesting recollection, and yes watching the game is definitely the best way to get an idea of how the player played (the raw box score is honestly quite garbage at pinpointing how good a player actually is).

I absolutely do not intend to question your knowledge of basketball as well as your firsthand experience of watching Malone, but could it be that you had a cognitive bias regarding Malone and Bird? I feel that Malone's flashy offensive rebounding, isolation scoring and occasional shotblocking (he wasn't an elite defender, but he was still a strong one) would be more intense (in terms of the experience in watching a basketball game) than Bird's quick decision-making on offence and smart defence, so you end up judging both players on the "peak" experience you had from watching them (I'm just wondering about this since you noted that you saw players play much less often back then), thus giving Malone an advantage in your memory? Again I'm not questioning your knowledge of basketball or posting this to slight what you watched live back then, I just wonder if the peak-end rule applies in this case (ntm that Malone's best years had him going to the finals multiple times and winning the championship once against the Lakers in dominant fashion, so the "end" of the prime Malone experience would be pretty good as well).
Cognitive bias? No it wasn't cognitive bias and I do find that a bit insulting. I was a giant Bird fan. Loved the guy and thought he could do no wrong.

But it was a different game with pure man to man defense, the entire strategy to go inside(not shoot from the outside) and bigs ruled. And Moses ruled the bigs. He was THE dominant big in the league and the league's biggest difference making player for those 80-81 through to 82-83 seasons. 

Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2019, 12:17:43 PM »

Offline Somebody

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I was 17-18 during those two Malone MVPs. I love Larry, but those two years, Malone was a much bigger difference maker on his team as well as through the year in the league.

No TS%, WS, RPM, BPM, PER, etc existed back then. You watched the game and got the raw box scores. Going off what I saw of Moses during that time(because, remember, there was no ESPN for highlights or League Pass to watch any game you want or NBA Network to discuss and watch ball or ESPN or TNT putting on multiple national games of the week, so you got to see players much less) he was more deserving of the MVP than Bird was. Heck, even in 80-81, Moses probably deserved it that year too, over Dr. J.
Interesting recollection, and yes watching the game is definitely the best way to get an idea of how the player played (the raw box score is honestly quite garbage at pinpointing how good a player actually is).

I absolutely do not intend to question your knowledge of basketball as well as your firsthand experience of watching Malone, but could it be that you had a cognitive bias regarding Malone and Bird? I feel that Malone's flashy offensive rebounding, isolation scoring and occasional shotblocking (he wasn't an elite defender, but he was still a strong one) would be more intense (in terms of the experience in watching a basketball game) than Bird's quick decision-making on offence and smart defence, so you end up judging both players on the "peak" experience you had from watching them (I'm just wondering about this since you noted that you saw players play much less often back then), thus giving Malone an advantage in your memory? Again I'm not questioning your knowledge of basketball or posting this to slight what you watched live back then, I just wonder if the peak-end rule applies in this case (ntm that Malone's best years had him going to the finals multiple times and winning the championship once against the Lakers in dominant fashion, so the "end" of the prime Malone experience would be pretty good as well).
Cognitive bias? No it wasn't cognitive bias and I do find that a bit insulting. I was a giant Bird fan. Loved the guy and thought he could do no wrong.

But it was a different game with pure man to man defense, the entire strategy to go inside(not shoot from the outside) and bigs ruled. And Moses ruled the bigs. He was THE dominant big in the league and the league's biggest difference making player for those 80-81 through to 82-83 seasons.
Yeah I understand that it was a bit insulting, my apologies again. And to each their own I guess, I don't buy that bigs ruled that era with how Bird and Magic dominated the decade, as well as the fact that Malone performs pretty poorly in impact metrics (I know that those numbers are quite noisy and shouldn't be taken as the gospel, but Malone was so bad in those metrics that I don't believe that he authored that high of a peak, his peak BPM ranks outside the top 150 of all time, and his best 5 year AuPM stretch ranks outside the top 230, those are really poor numbers for a superstar). Obviously he was an insanely good player (he had a stretch where I think he had a really strong case for being the second best player in the league), but eh I think there were better players in the league every time he won the MVP award. But I appreciate and respect your input from watching him live, and I apologise again for my insulting words in my prior post.

You can find the BPM numbers in Basketball Reference, and you can find information about Augmented Plus-Minus here: https://backpicks.com/2017/09/18/augmented-plus-minus-evaluating-old-pm-data
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 12:23:52 PM by Somebody »
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Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2019, 11:40:13 PM »

Offline Redz

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I was 17-18 during those two Malone MVPs. I love Larry, but those two years, Malone was a much bigger difference maker on his team as well as through the year in the league.

No TS%, WS, RPM, BPM, PER, etc existed back then. You watched the game and got the raw box scores. Going off what I saw of Moses during that time(because, remember, there was no ESPN for highlights or League Pass to watch any game you want or NBA Network to discuss and watch ball or ESPN or TNT putting on multiple national games of the week, so you got to see players much less) he was more deserving of the MVP than Bird was. Heck, even in 80-81, Moses probably deserved it that year too, over Dr. J.
Interesting recollection, and yes watching the game is definitely the best way to get an idea of how the player played (the raw box score is honestly quite garbage at pinpointing how good a player actually is).

I absolutely do not intend to question your knowledge of basketball as well as your firsthand experience of watching Malone, but could it be that you had a cognitive bias regarding Malone and Bird? I feel that Malone's flashy offensive rebounding, isolation scoring and occasional shotblocking (he wasn't an elite defender, but he was still a strong one) would be more intense (in terms of the experience in watching a basketball game) than Bird's quick decision-making on offence and smart defence, so you end up judging both players on the "peak" experience you had from watching them (I'm just wondering about this since you noted that you saw players play much less often back then), thus giving Malone an advantage in your memory? Again I'm not questioning your knowledge of basketball or posting this to slight what you watched live back then, I just wonder if the peak-end rule applies in this case (ntm that Malone's best years had him going to the finals multiple times and winning the championship once against the Lakers in dominant fashion, so the "end" of the prime Malone experience would be pretty good as well).

I'm a few years younger than sage old Nick, but I can confirm that Malone was deserving of his MVPs.  He was a scary guy to play against and pretty much carried a mediocre Rockets team to the Finals in 81.

I've got to go to get ready for work, but remind me to tell the Larry championship rally Moses Eats Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again. story.
Good point about his finals run with Houston, but I talked about that squad: they got really lucky in that run. They were 12th in SRS and 11th in net rating (middle of the pack), both of which are team metrics that are fairly accurate at indicating team strength. It was more of a fluke run than Moses being an excellent centrepiece: Houston was a middling team before and after that run, posting similar SRS and net rating scores as well as being playoff fodder in the first couple of rounds.

But yeah his offensive rebounding and isolation scoring made him a monster to play against, I just don't think he was better than Kareem and Bird when he won his MVPs.

And I'm all ears to some Bird stories!

Moses had famously quoted before the playoffs in 81 that Houston would go "fo fo fo" (meaning they would sweep everyone).  At the Celtics championship celebration in government center Larry spotted a sign in the crowd of hundreds of thousands that read Moses Eats (naughty word for poop).  He made reference to the sign and enthusiastically quoted it.  The masses went bananas and started chanting it in unison.  It was glorious.  Larry was a god!
Yup

Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2019, 02:14:27 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I was 17-18 during those two Malone MVPs. I love Larry, but those two years, Malone was a much bigger difference maker on his team as well as through the year in the league.

No TS%, WS, RPM, BPM, PER, etc existed back then. You watched the game and got the raw box scores. Going off what I saw of Moses during that time(because, remember, there was no ESPN for highlights or League Pass to watch any game you want or NBA Network to discuss and watch ball or ESPN or TNT putting on multiple national games of the week, so you got to see players much less) he was more deserving of the MVP than Bird was. Heck, even in 80-81, Moses probably deserved it that year too, over Dr. J.
Interesting recollection, and yes watching the game is definitely the best way to get an idea of how the player played (the raw box score is honestly quite garbage at pinpointing how good a player actually is).

I absolutely do not intend to question your knowledge of basketball as well as your firsthand experience of watching Malone, but could it be that you had a cognitive bias regarding Malone and Bird? I feel that Malone's flashy offensive rebounding, isolation scoring and occasional shotblocking (he wasn't an elite defender, but he was still a strong one) would be more intense (in terms of the experience in watching a basketball game) than Bird's quick decision-making on offence and smart defence, so you end up judging both players on the "peak" experience you had from watching them (I'm just wondering about this since you noted that you saw players play much less often back then), thus giving Malone an advantage in your memory? Again I'm not questioning your knowledge of basketball or posting this to slight what you watched live back then, I just wonder if the peak-end rule applies in this case (ntm that Malone's best years had him going to the finals multiple times and winning the championship once against the Lakers in dominant fashion, so the "end" of the prime Malone experience would be pretty good as well).

I'm a few years younger than sage old Nick, but I can confirm that Malone was deserving of his MVPs.  He was a scary guy to play against and pretty much carried a mediocre Rockets team to the Finals in 81.

I've got to go to get ready for work, but remind me to tell the Larry championship rally Moses Eats Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again. story.
Good point about his finals run with Houston, but I talked about that squad: they got really lucky in that run. They were 12th in SRS and 11th in net rating (middle of the pack), both of which are team metrics that are fairly accurate at indicating team strength. It was more of a fluke run than Moses being an excellent centrepiece: Houston was a middling team before and after that run, posting similar SRS and net rating scores as well as being playoff fodder in the first couple of rounds.

But yeah his offensive rebounding and isolation scoring made him a monster to play against, I just don't think he was better than Kareem and Bird when he won his MVPs.

And I'm all ears to some Bird stories!

Moses had famously quoted before the playoffs in 81 that Houston would go "fo fo fo" (meaning they would sweep everyone).  At the Celtics championship celebration in government center Larry spotted a sign in the crowd of hundreds of thousands that read Moses Eats (naughty word for poop).  He made reference to the sign and enthusiastically quoted it.  The masses went bananas and started chanting it in unison.  It was glorious.  Larry was a god!
That sounds great! Also did not know that Moses made such a bold statement with a bang average team.
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Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2019, 08:37:18 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Larry was also responding to Moses claim that he could get 4 guys from his local playground and could beat the Celtics. That was another reason why Larry told Moses what he could eat. My guess is Larry probably told Moses that on the court too. That's just how Larry was.

Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2019, 08:41:55 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Larry was also responding to Moses claim that he could get 4 guys from his local playground and could beat the Celtics. That was another reason why Larry told Moses what he could eat. My guess is Larry probably told Moses that on the court too. That's just how Larry was.
Yeah I've heard of his trash talking, really good stuff. Really interesting to see that Moses had such a big personality though.
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Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2019, 09:26:51 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I was 17-18 during those two Malone MVPs. I love Larry, but those two years, Malone was a much bigger difference maker on his team as well as through the year in the league.

No TS%, WS, RPM, BPM, PER, etc existed back then. You watched the game and got the raw box scores. Going off what I saw of Moses during that time(because, remember, there was no ESPN for highlights or League Pass to watch any game you want or NBA Network to discuss and watch ball or ESPN or TNT putting on multiple national games of the week, so you got to see players much less) he was more deserving of the MVP than Bird was. Heck, even in 80-81, Moses probably deserved it that year too, over Dr. J.
Interesting recollection, and yes watching the game is definitely the best way to get an idea of how the player played (the raw box score is honestly quite garbage at pinpointing how good a player actually is).

I absolutely do not intend to question your knowledge of basketball as well as your firsthand experience of watching Malone, but could it be that you had a cognitive bias regarding Malone and Bird? I feel that Malone's flashy offensive rebounding, isolation scoring and occasional shotblocking (he wasn't an elite defender, but he was still a strong one) would be more intense (in terms of the experience in watching a basketball game) than Bird's quick decision-making on offence and smart defence, so you end up judging both players on the "peak" experience you had from watching them (I'm just wondering about this since you noted that you saw players play much less often back then), thus giving Malone an advantage in your memory? Again I'm not questioning your knowledge of basketball or posting this to slight what you watched live back then, I just wonder if the peak-end rule applies in this case (ntm that Malone's best years had him going to the finals multiple times and winning the championship once against the Lakers in dominant fashion, so the "end" of the prime Malone experience would be pretty good as well).

I'm a few years younger than sage old Nick, but I can confirm that Malone was deserving of his MVPs.  He was a scary guy to play against and pretty much carried a mediocre Rockets team to the Finals in 81.

I've got to go to get ready for work, but remind me to tell the Larry championship rally Moses Eats Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again. story.
Good point about his finals run with Houston, but I talked about that squad: they got really lucky in that run. They were 12th in SRS and 11th in net rating (middle of the pack), both of which are team metrics that are fairly accurate at indicating team strength. It was more of a fluke run than Moses being an excellent centrepiece: Houston was a middling team before and after that run, posting similar SRS and net rating scores as well as being playoff fodder in the first couple of rounds.

But yeah his offensive rebounding and isolation scoring made him a monster to play against, I just don't think he was better than Kareem and Bird when he won his MVPs.

And I'm all ears to some Bird stories!

Moses had famously quoted before the playoffs in 81 that Houston would go "fo fo fo" (meaning they would sweep everyone).  At the Celtics championship celebration in government center Larry spotted a sign in the crowd of hundreds of thousands that read Moses Eats (naughty word for poop).  He made reference to the sign and enthusiastically quoted it.  The masses went bananas and started chanting it in unison.  It was glorious.  Larry was a god!
That sounds great! Also did not know that Moses made such a bold statement with a bang average team.
It was the 83 playoffs when Moses made that statement and the Sixers ended up fo fi fo.  Bird's statement had nothing to do with that one it was the one nick referred to when Moses said he could take 4 guys from his hometown and beat the Celtics.
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Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2019, 09:39:05 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Oh, I was also standing way, way, way back on Tremont Street watching the celebration at City Hall Plaza. Had to be around a half million people there. The crowd went nuts when Bird told Moses what he could do. The city just LOVED that 81 team.


Anyway, maybe we should get back on topic.

Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #84 on: December 14, 2019, 10:06:32 AM »

Offline footey

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Oh, I was also standing way, way, way back on Tremont Street watching the celebration at City Hall Plaza. Had to be around a half million people there. The crowd went nuts when Bird told Moses what he could do. The city just LOVED that 81 team.


Anyway, maybe we should get back on topic.

Me too. I was there!

Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2019, 11:13:13 PM »

Offline Redz

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I was 17-18 during those two Malone MVPs. I love Larry, but those two years, Malone was a much bigger difference maker on his team as well as through the year in the league.

No TS%, WS, RPM, BPM, PER, etc existed back then. You watched the game and got the raw box scores. Going off what I saw of Moses during that time(because, remember, there was no ESPN for highlights or League Pass to watch any game you want or NBA Network to discuss and watch ball or ESPN or TNT putting on multiple national games of the week, so you got to see players much less) he was more deserving of the MVP than Bird was. Heck, even in 80-81, Moses probably deserved it that year too, over Dr. J.
Interesting recollection, and yes watching the game is definitely the best way to get an idea of how the player played (the raw box score is honestly quite garbage at pinpointing how good a player actually is).

I absolutely do not intend to question your knowledge of basketball as well as your firsthand experience of watching Malone, but could it be that you had a cognitive bias regarding Malone and Bird? I feel that Malone's flashy offensive rebounding, isolation scoring and occasional shotblocking (he wasn't an elite defender, but he was still a strong one) would be more intense (in terms of the experience in watching a basketball game) than Bird's quick decision-making on offence and smart defence, so you end up judging both players on the "peak" experience you had from watching them (I'm just wondering about this since you noted that you saw players play much less often back then), thus giving Malone an advantage in your memory? Again I'm not questioning your knowledge of basketball or posting this to slight what you watched live back then, I just wonder if the peak-end rule applies in this case (ntm that Malone's best years had him going to the finals multiple times and winning the championship once against the Lakers in dominant fashion, so the "end" of the prime Malone experience would be pretty good as well).

I'm a few years younger than sage old Nick, but I can confirm that Malone was deserving of his MVPs.  He was a scary guy to play against and pretty much carried a mediocre Rockets team to the Finals in 81.

I've got to go to get ready for work, but remind me to tell the Larry championship rally Moses Eats Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again. story.
Good point about his finals run with Houston, but I talked about that squad: they got really lucky in that run. They were 12th in SRS and 11th in net rating (middle of the pack), both of which are team metrics that are fairly accurate at indicating team strength. It was more of a fluke run than Moses being an excellent centrepiece: Houston was a middling team before and after that run, posting similar SRS and net rating scores as well as being playoff fodder in the first couple of rounds.

But yeah his offensive rebounding and isolation scoring made him a monster to play against, I just don't think he was better than Kareem and Bird when he won his MVPs.

And I'm all ears to some Bird stories!

Moses had famously quoted before the playoffs in 81 that Houston would go "fo fo fo" (meaning they would sweep everyone).  At the Celtics championship celebration in government center Larry spotted a sign in the crowd of hundreds of thousands that read Moses Eats (naughty word for poop).  He made reference to the sign and enthusiastically quoted it.  The masses went bananas and started chanting it in unison.  It was glorious.  Larry was a god!
That sounds great! Also did not know that Moses made such a bold statement with a bang average team.
It was the 83 playoffs when Moses made that statement and the Sixers ended up fo fi fo.  Bird's statement had nothing to do with that one it was the one nick referred to when Moses said he could take 4 guys from his hometown and beat the Celtics.

I stand corrected about the genesis of the story.it all comes back to me now.  But being in the crowd to for that chant and celebration was awesome.
Yup

Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #86 on: December 16, 2019, 11:46:42 AM »

Offline rondofan1255

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https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256484/Cavaliers-Unlikely-To-Generate-Big-Trade-Offer-For-Kevin-Love

Quote
The Cleveland Cavaliers are unlikely to generate a robust market for Kevin Love as they look to trade him.

"I think you're looking at a marketplace where they'll probably get a protected first round pick and maybe an expiring contract and then maybe a throw-in player," said Adrian Wojnarowski.

Wojnarowski also opined that Love is at the stage of his career where he's likely the third or fourth best player on a contending team.

"I think Kevin Love is ready to go," said Wojnarowski of leaving the Cavaliers.

Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #87 on: December 16, 2019, 11:55:35 AM »

Offline Moranis

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https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256484/Cavaliers-Unlikely-To-Generate-Big-Trade-Offer-For-Kevin-Love

Quote
The Cleveland Cavaliers are unlikely to generate a robust market for Kevin Love as they look to trade him.

"I think you're looking at a marketplace where they'll probably get a protected first round pick and maybe an expiring contract and then maybe a throw-in player," said Adrian Wojnarowski.

Wojnarowski also opined that Love is at the stage of his career where he's likely the third or fourth best player on a contending team.

"I think Kevin Love is ready to go," said Wojnarowski of leaving the Cavaliers.
Woj and Lowe had a trading show yesterday and spent a fair amount of time on Love and that is where those quotes came from.  They thought Portland made a lot of sense setting the Blazers up for next year when Nurkic is back (and using Whiteside as the main money component going to the Cavs).  They liked the potential of a Nurkic, Love, Lillard, McCollum team. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #88 on: December 16, 2019, 01:35:55 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256484/Cavaliers-Unlikely-To-Generate-Big-Trade-Offer-For-Kevin-Love

Quote
The Cleveland Cavaliers are unlikely to generate a robust market for Kevin Love as they look to trade him.

"I think you're looking at a marketplace where they'll probably get a protected first round pick and maybe an expiring contract and then maybe a throw-in player," said Adrian Wojnarowski.

Wojnarowski also opined that Love is at the stage of his career where he's likely the third or fourth best player on a contending team.

"I think Kevin Love is ready to go," said Wojnarowski of leaving the Cavaliers.
Woj and Lowe had a trading show yesterday and spent a fair amount of time on Love and that is where those quotes came from.  They thought Portland made a lot of sense setting the Blazers up for next year when Nurkic is back (and using Whiteside as the main money component going to the Cavs).  They liked the potential of a Nurkic, Love, Lillard, McCollum team.

Don’t forget Carmelo

Re: Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available
« Reply #89 on: December 16, 2019, 02:37:59 PM »

Offline Moranis

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https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256484/Cavaliers-Unlikely-To-Generate-Big-Trade-Offer-For-Kevin-Love

Quote
The Cleveland Cavaliers are unlikely to generate a robust market for Kevin Love as they look to trade him.

"I think you're looking at a marketplace where they'll probably get a protected first round pick and maybe an expiring contract and then maybe a throw-in player," said Adrian Wojnarowski.

Wojnarowski also opined that Love is at the stage of his career where he's likely the third or fourth best player on a contending team.

"I think Kevin Love is ready to go," said Wojnarowski of leaving the Cavaliers.
Woj and Lowe had a trading show yesterday and spent a fair amount of time on Love and that is where those quotes came from.  They thought Portland made a lot of sense setting the Blazers up for next year when Nurkic is back (and using Whiteside as the main money component going to the Cavs).  They liked the potential of a Nurkic, Love, Lillard, McCollum team.

Don’t forget Carmelo
I got the impression they didn't think Melo was going to be on the team next year.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip