Kevin Love prefers to be traded to Blazers. Thompson also available

[RockinRyA]

From what I saw the other night, I’m set with both Love and Thompson.

I think Tristan is still a good role player as a big man. I think he creates havoc with those offensive rebounds. However, on this team there's really not that much for a need. I think he's a better offensive rebounder than Kanter but Kanter has better offensive post moves. Essentially, not that much of a difference.

Keep in mind that some of that depends on offensive sets. There is a tradeoff between offensive rebounding positioning and spacing to give your team room to drive. I think Stevens prefers more of the latter.

We still need a big, but preferably someone a little more versatile than Thompson. Honestly, I think Kanter is better than TT.

you must be joking

TT is a machine and an excellent versatile defender.  Also gets to the line quite a bit (though FT is so so). He is better than Kanter

Celts should explore a way to bring TT onboard

There's no feasible way to bring in Thompson without touching our core or overpaying. Not gonna happen.

[Moranis]

Walton didn't even play in 2 of Malone's 3 MVP seasons ('79 and '82).  And only played 33 games in the other ('83).  Moses wasn't more valuable than that?

I meant during the 70s before Walton was injured - someone brought up Moses' stretch from the mid-late 70s to the early-mid 80s. I think Moses was a top 5 player in '82 and '83 with an argument as #2, but imo the #1 player during those two years was a certain young forward playing for the Boston Celtics by quite a margin.

Bird was obviously a better passer than Moses, but here are Bird's and Moses' stats during Moses' 2 MVP seasons in the early 80's.

Moses 82
31.1 p, 14.7 r, 1.8 a, 0.9 s, 1.5 b, 3.6 t, 2.6 f, 57.6 TS%, WS 15.4, PER 26.8, started 81 games and played 42 mpg

Bird 82
22.9 p, 10.9 r, 5.8 a, 1.9 s, 0.9 b, 3.3 t, 3.2 f, 55.7 TS%, WS 12.5, PER 22.6, started 58 of 77 games and played 38 mpg

Moses 83
24.5 p, 15.3 r, 1.3 a, 1.1 s, 2.0 b, 3.4 t, 2.6 f, 57.8 TS%, WS 15.1, PER 25.1, started 78 games and played 37.5 mpg

Bird 83
23.6 p, 11.0 r, 5.8 a, 1.9 s, 0.9 b, 3.0 t, 2.5 f, 56.1 TS%, WS 14.0, PER 24.1, started 79 games and played 37.1 mpg


I'm sorry, Moses was just flat out better than Bird those 2 years.  Frankly, it wasn't all that close.

I'm sorry, box stats don't tell the whole story during those 2 years. Bird was quite a bit better, and frankly it wasn't all that close.

Sure and the whole story is in 83, Moses engineered one of the greatest teams in NBA history.  Till that point in history no team had gone through the playoffs with 1 loss (the Shaq Lakers and the Durant Warriors matched that since then).  the Celtics didn't even make the NBA Finals in either of those years.  Heck in 82, Bird didn't even start 15 games.  And those were the years before Bird became the deadly 3 point shooter he was later in his career.  He shot less than 1 game those seasons and was well under 29% doing it (in 82 he was at a paltry 21.2%).  Those first few years of Bird, he just didn't have his full offensive repertoire in tow.  When he finally started putting all of that together is when Bird reached that next level. 

Moses was just flat out better than Bird those 2 years.  Bird started to shift it in the 84 season and in 85 he put it all together offensively.  Early Bird though wasn't as nearly as good as Bird ultimately became (which you know is pretty typical).  Bird ended up as the better player, but Moses in his 8th and 9th year was better than Bird in his 3rd and 4th. 

[Donoghus]

This got me reading up a bit more on Malone for the first time in ages.  '82-83 gets discussed quite a a bit due to Moses joining Philly and the title that followed.  But his '81-82 is pretty ridiculous.  Came across this:

Overall, Moses averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg in the month of February. he had at least 30 points in 13 of the 14 games, scored 40+ 6 times that month and had at least 20 rebounds 6 times that month. He led Houston to an 11-3 record and to nobody's surprise was voted player of the month for February.

That's dominance.

[nickagneta]

I was 17-18 during those two Malone MVPs. I love Larry, but those two years, Malone was a much bigger difference maker on his team as well as through the year in the league.

No TS%, WS, RPM, BPM, PER, etc existed back then. You watched the game and got the raw box scores. Going off what I saw of Moses during that time(because, remember, there was no ESPN for highlights or League Pass to watch any game you want or NBA Network to discuss and watch ball or ESPN or TNT putting on multiple national games of the week, so you got to see players much less) he was more deserving of the MVP than Bird was. Heck, even in 80-81, Moses probably deserved it that year too, over Dr. J.

[rondofan1255]

Jason Lloyd of The Athletic reported:

"The Cavaliers are going to have a difficult time trading Kevin Love because of his mammoth contract, multiple league sources have told The Athletic. Love is in the first year of a four-year, $120 million extension he signed in the weeks after LeBron James left.

The Cavs are asking for a first-round pick in exchange for Love, one source with knowledge of the situation said. But teams are actually asking for a first-round pick from Cleveland just to absorb the final three-and-a-half years on his deal."

https://theathletic.com/1454111/2019/12/12/final-thoughts-on-kevin-love-trade-talks-the-indians-payroll-and-baker-mayfield/

[Moranis]

Jason Lloyd of The Athletic reported:

"The Cavaliers are going to have a difficult time trading Kevin Love because of his mammoth contract, multiple league sources have told The Athletic. Love is in the first year of a four-year, $120 million extension he signed in the weeks after LeBron James left.

The Cavs are asking for a first-round pick in exchange for Love, one source with knowledge of the situation said. But teams are actually asking for a first-round pick from Cleveland just to absorb the final three-and-a-half years on his deal."

https://theathletic.com/1454111/2019/12/12/final-thoughts-on-kevin-love-trade-talks-the-indians-payroll-and-baker-mayfield/

I predict Love will get traded for mid tier contracts/players and no 1st rounders in the trade.  Something like Whiteside/Collins type trade.

[Somebody]

Walton didn't even play in 2 of Malone's 3 MVP seasons ('79 and '82).  And only played 33 games in the other ('83).  Moses wasn't more valuable than that?

I meant during the 70s before Walton was injured - someone brought up Moses' stretch from the mid-late 70s to the early-mid 80s. I think Moses was a top 5 player in '82 and '83 with an argument as #2, but imo the #1 player during those two years was a certain young forward playing for the Boston Celtics by quite a margin.

Bird was obviously a better passer than Moses, but here are Bird's and Moses' stats during Moses' 2 MVP seasons in the early 80's.

Moses 82
31.1 p, 14.7 r, 1.8 a, 0.9 s, 1.5 b, 3.6 t, 2.6 f, 57.6 TS%, WS 15.4, PER 26.8, started 81 games and played 42 mpg

Bird 82
22.9 p, 10.9 r, 5.8 a, 1.9 s, 0.9 b, 3.3 t, 3.2 f, 55.7 TS%, WS 12.5, PER 22.6, started 58 of 77 games and played 38 mpg

Moses 83
24.5 p, 15.3 r, 1.3 a, 1.1 s, 2.0 b, 3.4 t, 2.6 f, 57.8 TS%, WS 15.1, PER 25.1, started 78 games and played 37.5 mpg

Bird 83
23.6 p, 11.0 r, 5.8 a, 1.9 s, 0.9 b, 3.0 t, 2.5 f, 56.1 TS%, WS 14.0, PER 24.1, started 79 games and played 37.1 mpg


I'm sorry, Moses was just flat out better than Bird those 2 years.  Frankly, it wasn't all that close.

I'm sorry, box stats don't tell the whole story during those 2 years. Bird was quite a bit better, and frankly it wasn't all that close.

I’m not going to say who clearly was better cause I don’t really know enough about those 82 and 83 seasons (Would you have both been little kids or not born also?). However I will say just plopping down some stats and saying it wasn’t close on either side is a bit silly. You could do that to say Karl Anthony towns was better in his second season than Tim Duncan ever was.

That's where non box metrics come in, as well as acknowledging two way impact. Impact metrics do have some noise, but they're generally a pretty good benchmark if you know how to use them (eg. Don't compare a role player to a superstar). If you do those things you'll very likely scoff at the idea that sophomore Towns was even close to prime Duncan, much less being better.

[Somebody]

Walton didn't even play in 2 of Malone's 3 MVP seasons ('79 and '82).  And only played 33 games in the other ('83).  Moses wasn't more valuable than that?

I meant during the 70s before Walton was injured - someone brought up Moses' stretch from the mid-late 70s to the early-mid 80s. I think Moses was a top 5 player in '82 and '83 with an argument as #2, but imo the #1 player during those two years was a certain young forward playing for the Boston Celtics by quite a margin.

Bird was obviously a better passer than Moses, but here are Bird's and Moses' stats during Moses' 2 MVP seasons in the early 80's.

Moses 82
31.1 p, 14.7 r, 1.8 a, 0.9 s, 1.5 b, 3.6 t, 2.6 f, 57.6 TS%, WS 15.4, PER 26.8, started 81 games and played 42 mpg

Bird 82
22.9 p, 10.9 r, 5.8 a, 1.9 s, 0.9 b, 3.3 t, 3.2 f, 55.7 TS%, WS 12.5, PER 22.6, started 58 of 77 games and played 38 mpg

Moses 83
24.5 p, 15.3 r, 1.3 a, 1.1 s, 2.0 b, 3.4 t, 2.6 f, 57.8 TS%, WS 15.1, PER 25.1, started 78 games and played 37.5 mpg

Bird 83
23.6 p, 11.0 r, 5.8 a, 1.9 s, 0.9 b, 3.0 t, 2.5 f, 56.1 TS%, WS 14.0, PER 24.1, started 79 games and played 37.1 mpg


I'm sorry, Moses was just flat out better than Bird those 2 years.  Frankly, it wasn't all that close.

I'm sorry, box stats don't tell the whole story during those 2 years. Bird was quite a bit better, and frankly it wasn't all that close.

Sure and the whole story is in 83, Moses engineered one of the greatest teams in NBA history.  Till that point in history no team had gone through the playoffs with 1 loss (the Shaq Lakers and the Durant Warriors matched that since then).  the Celtics didn't even make the NBA Finals in either of those years.  Heck in 82, Bird didn't even start 15 games.  And those were the years before Bird became the deadly 3 point shooter he was later in his career.  He shot less than 1 game those seasons and was well under 29% doing it (in 82 he was at a paltry 21.2%).  Those first few years of Bird, he just didn't have his full offensive repertoire in tow.  When he finally started putting all of that together is when Bird reached that next level. 

Moses was just flat out better than Bird those 2 years.  Bird started to shift it in the 84 season and in 85 he put it all together offensively.  Early Bird though wasn't as nearly as good as Bird ultimately became (which you know is pretty typical).  Bird ended up as the better player, but Moses in his 8th and 9th year was better than Bird in his 3rd and 4th.

That's just result oriented thinking. Malone was just the piece that pushed that loaded 76ers team to dominance, he wasn't the sole driver of such team success. When you have pieces like Erving, Bobby Jones, Maurice Cheeks as your teammates you're going to absolutely run roughshod over the league.

Bird was still really good in 82 and 83. He still hadn't figured it out on offence yet, but he was a fringe All-Defensive player (a trait that he lost in the second trimester of his career, even though his offence peaked during that period) and was one of the best touch for touch passers in NBA history (his one touch passes were incredibly valuable due to its off-ball nature and how aggressive they were to find open looks for teammates). These skills are commonly associated with ceiling raisers, but Bird's floor raising was spectacular as well: he was primarily responsible for a 32 game turnaround in his rookie season by handling the brunt of the offensive load, spearheading an offence that was more than 4 points better than league average (offensive rating). He was still a similar player in 82 and 83, which to me suggests that young Bird was one of the most portable superstar forwards ever with immense floor raising skills as well, the latter which is something that Malone can't claim (he never led a team that wasn't elite to excellence in metrics that measure team strength like SRS and net rating, and even in his flukey finals run the team was bang average, ranking 12th in SRS and 11th in net rating).

Obviously floor raising isn't as valuable as ceiling raising, but Malone also lags behind in this aspect as well: all time great passing is one of the most additive skills in basketball, especially when it's in an off ball package like Bird's. Moses provided additive value as a good finisher and a GOAT level offensive rebounder, but it was nowhere near how Bird could supercharge good teams to transcendence, even when he wasn't that good of a shooter yet and had questionable shot selection at times (young Bird would rush some decisions at times on offence).

I see an argument for Malone if you take the box score at face value, but I think Bird was quite a bit better in 82 and 83 if you look at how their skillsets work on teams and how they fared in impact metrics/advanced team stats. Imo young Bird is underrated a bit here while peak Bird is a tad overrated.

[Somebody]

I was 17-18 during those two Malone MVPs. I love Larry, but those two years, Malone was a much bigger difference maker on his team as well as through the year in the league.

No TS%, WS, RPM, BPM, PER, etc existed back then. You watched the game and got the raw box scores. Going off what I saw of Moses during that time(because, remember, there was no ESPN for highlights or League Pass to watch any game you want or NBA Network to discuss and watch ball or ESPN or TNT putting on multiple national games of the week, so you got to see players much less) he was more deserving of the MVP than Bird was. Heck, even in 80-81, Moses probably deserved it that year too, over Dr. J.

Interesting recollection, and yes watching the game is definitely the best way to get an idea of how the player played (the raw box score is honestly quite garbage at pinpointing how good a player actually is).

I absolutely do not intend to question your knowledge of basketball as well as your firsthand experience of watching Malone, but could it be that you had a cognitive bias regarding Malone and Bird? I feel that Malone's flashy offensive rebounding, isolation scoring and occasional shotblocking (he wasn't an elite defender, but he was still a strong one) would be more intense (in terms of the experience in watching a basketball game) than Bird's quick decision-making on offence and smart defence, so you end up judging both players on the "peak" experience you had from watching them (I'm just wondering about this since you noted that you saw players play much less often back then), thus giving Malone an advantage in your memory? Again I'm not questioning your knowledge of basketball or posting this to slight what you watched live back then, I just wonder if the peak-end rule applies in this case (ntm that Malone's best years had him going to the finals multiple times and winning the championship once against the Lakers in dominant fashion, so the "end" of the prime Malone experience would be pretty good as well).

[Somebody]

This got me reading up a bit more on Malone for the first time in ages.  '82-83 gets discussed quite a a bit due to Moses joining Philly and the title that followed.  But his '81-82 is pretty ridiculous.  Came across this:

Overall, Moses averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg in the month of February. he had at least 30 points in 13 of the 14 games, scored 40+ 6 times that month and had at least 20 rebounds 6 times that month. He led Houston to an 11-3 record and to nobody's surprise was voted player of the month for February.

That's dominance.

82 was probably his best year tbh. I am skeptical of his massive box stats though, his stats didn't necessarily correlate to pushing average teams to the upper crust of the NBA. Sure he dominated with Philadelphia in 83, but that Sixers squad was loaded, any MVP candidate joining them would've walked the league.

[Smartacus]

While Love's been mostly terrible this season, he was able to put up a vintage performance against the Spurs last night.

30/17 with some clutch shooting in the 4th and OT.

https://youtu.be/CAhzV29Z1LI

[Celtics4ever]

Bird was a better player than Malone, period.  Malone was a center who could score and defend but mainly a rebound guy.  Bird could do it all and made everyone on his team better with his basketball IQ.

[Redz]

I was 17-18 during those two Malone MVPs. I love Larry, but those two years, Malone was a much bigger difference maker on his team as well as through the year in the league.

No TS%, WS, RPM, BPM, PER, etc existed back then. You watched the game and got the raw box scores. Going off what I saw of Moses during that time(because, remember, there was no ESPN for highlights or League Pass to watch any game you want or NBA Network to discuss and watch ball or ESPN or TNT putting on multiple national games of the week, so you got to see players much less) he was more deserving of the MVP than Bird was. Heck, even in 80-81, Moses probably deserved it that year too, over Dr. J.

Interesting recollection, and yes watching the game is definitely the best way to get an idea of how the player played (the raw box score is honestly quite garbage at pinpointing how good a player actually is).

I absolutely do not intend to question your knowledge of basketball as well as your firsthand experience of watching Malone, but could it be that you had a cognitive bias regarding Malone and Bird? I feel that Malone's flashy offensive rebounding, isolation scoring and occasional shotblocking (he wasn't an elite defender, but he was still a strong one) would be more intense (in terms of the experience in watching a basketball game) than Bird's quick decision-making on offence and smart defence, so you end up judging both players on the "peak" experience you had from watching them (I'm just wondering about this since you noted that you saw players play much less often back then), thus giving Malone an advantage in your memory? Again I'm not questioning your knowledge of basketball or posting this to slight what you watched live back then, I just wonder if the peak-end rule applies in this case (ntm that Malone's best years had him going to the finals multiple times and winning the championship once against the Lakers in dominant fashion, so the "end" of the prime Malone experience would be pretty good as well).

I'm a few years younger than sage old Nick, but I can confirm that Malone was deserving of his MVPs.  He was a scary guy to play against and pretty much carried a mediocre Rockets team to the Finals in 81.

I've got to go to get ready for work, but remind me to tell the Larry championship rally Moses Eats Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. story.

[Somebody]

I was 17-18 during those two Malone MVPs. I love Larry, but those two years, Malone was a much bigger difference maker on his team as well as through the year in the league.

No TS%, WS, RPM, BPM, PER, etc existed back then. You watched the game and got the raw box scores. Going off what I saw of Moses during that time(because, remember, there was no ESPN for highlights or League Pass to watch any game you want or NBA Network to discuss and watch ball or ESPN or TNT putting on multiple national games of the week, so you got to see players much less) he was more deserving of the MVP than Bird was. Heck, even in 80-81, Moses probably deserved it that year too, over Dr. J.

Interesting recollection, and yes watching the game is definitely the best way to get an idea of how the player played (the raw box score is honestly quite garbage at pinpointing how good a player actually is).

I absolutely do not intend to question your knowledge of basketball as well as your firsthand experience of watching Malone, but could it be that you had a cognitive bias regarding Malone and Bird? I feel that Malone's flashy offensive rebounding, isolation scoring and occasional shotblocking (he wasn't an elite defender, but he was still a strong one) would be more intense (in terms of the experience in watching a basketball game) than Bird's quick decision-making on offence and smart defence, so you end up judging both players on the "peak" experience you had from watching them (I'm just wondering about this since you noted that you saw players play much less often back then), thus giving Malone an advantage in your memory? Again I'm not questioning your knowledge of basketball or posting this to slight what you watched live back then, I just wonder if the peak-end rule applies in this case (ntm that Malone's best years had him going to the finals multiple times and winning the championship once against the Lakers in dominant fashion, so the "end" of the prime Malone experience would be pretty good as well).

I'm a few years younger than sage old Nick, but I can confirm that Malone was deserving of his MVPs.  He was a scary guy to play against and pretty much carried a mediocre Rockets team to the Finals in 81.

I've got to go to get ready for work, but remind me to tell the Larry championship rally Moses Eats Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again. story.

Good point about his finals run with Houston, but I talked about that squad: they got really lucky in that run. They were 12th in SRS and 11th in net rating (middle of the pack), both of which are team metrics that are fairly accurate at indicating team strength. It was more of a fluke run than Moses being an excellent centrepiece: Houston was a middling team before and after that run, posting similar SRS and net rating scores as well as being playoff fodder in the first couple of rounds.

But yeah his offensive rebounding and isolation scoring made him a monster to play against, I just don't think he was better than Kareem and Bird when he won his MVPs.

And I'm all ears to some Bird stories!

[KGs Knee]

Kind of funny to see a debate about Moses and Bird in a thread about Kevin Love. Talk about off-topic.

Back on topic: I have no interest in Kevin Love at his salary, nor for any role on this team. His skill set isn't something the Celtics have a great need for. But I'd also be surprised if Portland could use him either. I'm not sure what he brings to the game that they aren't already getting from Melo so far.

The bottom line is I just don't see much of a market out there for Love. He's drastically overpaid and nowhere near as useful as he once was.