Is basketball more or less entertaining than it was 15 years ago?

[Roy H.]

Or, 16 years ago:

2008:

99.9 points per game
18.1 3PAs per game
#1 defense allows 90.1 points per game / #1 defense allows 98.9 points per 100 possessions
#1 offense scores 111.0 points per game / #1 offense scores 113.8 points per 100 possessions

2024:

115.5 points per game
35.0 3PAs per game
#1 defense allows 106.7 points per game / #1 defense allows 108.8 points per 100 possessions
#1 offense scores 123.7 points per game / #1 offense scores 121.7 points per 100 possessions

The NBA made a conscious decision to open up the game and to increase scoring.  Meanwhile, teams adapted their offenses, building them around spacing and outside shooting. 

The NBA's assumption was that fans wanted more offense, as it was more entertaining.  Do people think that has been the case?

[LilRip]

Ironically, how the game is being played today is literally how kids used to play NBA in video games even way back in the day, even in the low-scoring era.

Three-point heavy teams used to be gimmicky and GSW’s splash bros was fun for a bit but when it became the norm, it lost its charm. However, I also wasn’t a fan of every contender needing a dominant center as a general prerequisite.

So yeah, it’s probably a better product now and while I think the league has moved in the right direction, it needs to cut back a bit and allow defenders to defend more. The three point shot is always available because if defenders stick too close, it’s too easy to get to the basket (or get fouled). Maybe allow holding again? Not sure on the solution but there’s gotta be some happy middle between todays game and yesteryear’s

[celticsclay]

Or, 16 years ago:

2008:

99.9 points per game
18.1 3PAs per game
#1 defense allows 90.1 points per game / #1 defense allows 98.9 points per 100 possessions
#1 offense scores 111.0 points per game / #1 offense scores 113.8 points per 100 possessions

2024:

115.5 points per game
35.0 3PAs per game
#1 defense allows 106.7 points per game / #1 defense allows 108.8 points per 100 possessions
#1 offense scores 123.7 points per game / #1 offense scores 121.7 points per 100 possessions

The NBA made a conscious decision to open up the game and to increase scoring.  Meanwhile, teams adapted their offenses, building them around spacing and outside shooting. 

The NBA's assumption was that fans wanted more offense, as it was more entertaining.  Do people think that has been the case?

I wouldn’t mind something in the middle of this, but this year my interest in the regular season is a bit down and the offenses are basically all the same. Guys constantly putting up 50 or 60 or 70 points is way less exciting or impressive than it was in the past to me. I am not sure how they fix it though. Maybe making the three point shot a foot further.

[Roy H.]

I wouldn’t mind something in the middle of this

That's why the 1980s were the best.  Lots of pace, but also lots of physical play. 

[Donoghus]

Depends on your cup of tea. I can totally understand people liking today's game more but totally justified to think the game of 16 years ago was better too.

Personally, I think the game has gotten too over-reliant on the 3 pointer.  I'm 43.  Grew up with a more physical style NBA with a large emphasis on post play. 

Guys chucking it up from 3 point land all day is a drawback to me.

The game is still better than mid to late 90s ball, though.

[liam]

Does anyone have the info on how many free throws now vs then?

[Atzar]

Complex question.

I don't necessarily object to the migration of offenses out to the three-point line.  That's a natural evolution of the game and it's honestly surprising that it took the NBA 30+ years to truly embrace it.  As a neutral, the fact that 15-point leads can vanish in three minutes is pretty exciting.  ...As a Celtics fan it may drive me bald.

My biggest issue with the modern game is the way it's officiated.  Setting aside the question of ref competence, moving screens and dribbling violations are infrequently called and flopping is an increasingly valuable card in the hand of a ball-handler.  That all adds up to a pretty unfair advantage for the offense, and as an appreciator of good defense, I don't especially like that evolution of the game.

So there's some good and some bad. 


Tangent:  low-key I think one of the weaknesses of Jaylen's game is the fact that he doesn't oversell contact on drives to the rim.  His free throw rate is very low relative to his style of play.  I dislike the fact that "doesn't flop much" is legitimately a weakness on a player's scouting report in the modern NBA, but that's where we are.  But that's probably a discussion for elsewhere. 

[Roy H.]

Does anyone have the info on how many free throws now vs then?

2024: 22.7 FTAs per game (league median around 22 FTAs / 100 possessions)
2008: 24.9 FTAs per game (league median around 27 FTAs / 100 possessions)

[keevsnick]

Does anyone have the info on how many free throws now vs then?

2024: 22.7 FTAs per game (league median around 22 FTAs / 100 possessions)
2008: 24.9 FTAs per game (league median around 27 FTAs / 100 possessions)

I think i read somewhere that FT's per game are actually at or near a historic low? It make sense given how many more shots are taken from outside, but still given the complaining about foul baiting you'd think the numbers would be higher.

[angryguy77]

Less.

I still like watching it, but it's a glorified 3pt contest now.

[keevsnick]

Complex question.

I don't necessarily object to the migration of offenses out to the three-point line.  That's a natural evolution of the game and it's honestly surprising that it took the NBA 30+ years to truly embrace it.  As a neutral, the fact that 15-point leads can vanish in three minutes is pretty exciting.  ...As a Celtics fan it may drive me bald.

My biggest issue with the modern game is the way it's officiated.  Setting aside the question of ref competence, moving screens and dribbling violations are infrequently called and flopping is an increasingly valuable card in the hand of a ball-handler.  That all adds up to a pretty unfair advantage for the offense, and as an appreciator of good defense, I don't especially like that evolution of the game.

So there's some good and some bad. 


Tangent:  low-key I think one of the weaknesses of Jaylen's game is the fact that he doesn't oversell contact on drives to the rim.  His free throw rate is very low relative to his style of play.  I dislike the fact that "doesn't flop much" is legitimately a weakness on a player's scouting report in the modern NBA, but that's where we are.  But that's probably a discussion for elsewhere.

I think they need to do something to help out defenses. Not something as drastic as "remove corner threes" but something meaningful.

My favorite idea is removing the use of a an offensive players "off arm" as a battering ram. You actually see Tatum do this all the time. You just hold your arm out there and shove it into the defender. As long as the offensive player doesn't push out with the arm its never called an offensive foul, but IT SHOULD BE. If a defender can't put an arm on a guy, why can the offensive player? It denies defenders a chance at making at play on the ball and makes it so much easier for the offensive player to dribble to his spots.

I would also change defensive three seconds. Make it 5 seconds and it only applies to an area of the paint near closer to the rim. And extended restricted area. Helps defenses shut down drives easier and rotate faster.

But overall I like this era of the NBA. The skill level is so high, the games (when teams are healthy) are entertaining.

[jpotter33]

Agree with the idea of a middle ground option of allowing the defense more leeway in, you know, actually playing defense.

I think one of the benefits in this would be more consistent (and hopefully better) officiating. By having such a low standard of what constitutes a foul/violation, that naturally allows for greater variability given more involvement by officials.

Along these same lines, I think the foul-baiting is the more problematic issue than the volume of threes. Nobody wants to watch a free throw contest. They’ve done some stuff to limit the foul-baiting in recent years, but there are still a few players (Embiid, Giannis, SGA, etc.) that take advantage of the lax defensive rules and ruin the flow of games.

[jpotter33]

Complex question.

I don't necessarily object to the migration of offenses out to the three-point line.  That's a natural evolution of the game and it's honestly surprising that it took the NBA 30+ years to truly embrace it.  As a neutral, the fact that 15-point leads can vanish in three minutes is pretty exciting.  ...As a Celtics fan it may drive me bald.

My biggest issue with the modern game is the way it's officiated.  Setting aside the question of ref competence, moving screens and dribbling violations are infrequently called and flopping is an increasingly valuable card in the hand of a ball-handler.  That all adds up to a pretty unfair advantage for the offense, and as an appreciator of good defense, I don't especially like that evolution of the game.

So there's some good and some bad. 


Tangent:  low-key I think one of the weaknesses of Jaylen's game is the fact that he doesn't oversell contact on drives to the rim.  His free throw rate is very low relative to his style of play.  I dislike the fact that "doesn't flop much" is legitimately a weakness on a player's scouting report in the modern NBA, but that's where we are.  But that's probably a discussion for elsewhere.

I think they need to do something to help out defenses. Not something as drastic as "remove corner threes" but something meaningful.

My favorite idea is removing the use of a an offensive players "off arm" as a battering ram. You actually see Tatum do this all the time. You just hold your arm out there and shove it into the defender. As long as the offensive player doesn't push out with the arm its never called an offensive foul, but IT SHOULD BE. If a defender can't put an arm on a guy, why can the offensive player? It denies defenders a chance at making at play on the ball and makes it so much easier for the offensive player to dribble to his spots.

I would also change defensive three seconds. Make it 5 seconds and it only applies to an area of the paint near closer to the rim. And extended restricted area. Helps defenses shut down drives easier and rotate faster.

But overall I like this era of the NBA. The skill level is so high, the games (when teams are healthy) are entertaining.

Love the off-arm idea.

I’d also like to see us move away from calling fouls so often on contact that is clearly created by the offensive player in a legal guarding position. That happens way too frequently abd just punished good and legal defense.

Legal contact when the defender is straight up and the “chicken wing” offensive foul (Giannis) both need to be called more consistently, too.

[keevsnick]

Complex question.

I don't necessarily object to the migration of offenses out to the three-point line.  That's a natural evolution of the game and it's honestly surprising that it took the NBA 30+ years to truly embrace it.  As a neutral, the fact that 15-point leads can vanish in three minutes is pretty exciting.  ...As a Celtics fan it may drive me bald.

My biggest issue with the modern game is the way it's officiated.  Setting aside the question of ref competence, moving screens and dribbling violations are infrequently called and flopping is an increasingly valuable card in the hand of a ball-handler.  That all adds up to a pretty unfair advantage for the offense, and as an appreciator of good defense, I don't especially like that evolution of the game.

So there's some good and some bad. 


Tangent:  low-key I think one of the weaknesses of Jaylen's game is the fact that he doesn't oversell contact on drives to the rim.  His free throw rate is very low relative to his style of play.  I dislike the fact that "doesn't flop much" is legitimately a weakness on a player's scouting report in the modern NBA, but that's where we are.  But that's probably a discussion for elsewhere.

I think they need to do something to help out defenses. Not something as drastic as "remove corner threes" but something meaningful.

My favorite idea is removing the use of a an offensive players "off arm" as a battering ram. You actually see Tatum do this all the time. You just hold your arm out there and shove it into the defender. As long as the offensive player doesn't push out with the arm its never called an offensive foul, but IT SHOULD BE. If a defender can't put an arm on a guy, why can the offensive player? It denies defenders a chance at making at play on the ball and makes it so much easier for the offensive player to dribble to his spots.

I would also change defensive three seconds. Make it 5 seconds and it only applies to an area of the paint near closer to the rim. And extended restricted area. Helps defenses shut down drives easier and rotate faster.

But overall I like this era of the NBA. The skill level is so high, the games (when teams are healthy) are entertaining.

Love the off-arm idea.

I’d also like to see us move away from calling fouls so often on contact that is clearly created by the offensive player in a legal guarding position. That happens way too frequently abd just punished good and legal defense.

Legal contact when the defender is straight up and the “chicken wing” offensive foul (Giannis) both need to be called more consistently, too.

I agree. How often do you see a guy posting up, turn, and throw his body into a stationary defender? Or a guy driving, defense is right with him, but offensive player steps into the defenders line of movement and gets the call. Why are either of those fouls? Defenders have a right to space just like an offensive player does. Stop incentivizing foul hunting by giving the initiating player those calls.

[Celtics2021]

Agree with the idea of a middle ground option of allowing the defense more leeway in, you know, actually playing defense.

I think one of the benefits in this would be more consistent (and hopefully better) officiating. By having such a low standard of what constitutes a foul/violation, that naturally allows for greater variability given more involvement by officials.

Along these same lines, I think the foul-baiting is the more problematic issue than the volume of threes. Nobody wants to watch a free throw contest. They’ve done some stuff to limit the foul-baiting in recent years, but there are still a few players (Embiid, Giannis, SGA, etc.) that take advantage of the lax defensive rules and ruin the flow of games.

While I agree with you that no one wants to watch a free throw contest, I was admittedly surprised to find that the 2020s have averaged the fewest FTAs per game of any decade (and also the highest FT%).  So while I’m sure it could be improved a little, there are 10% fewer attempts per game than the 2000s, and over 20% fewer than the 80s.