Trade Irving for the sake of the team

[cltc5]

I love how so many know it alls are against trading kyrie yet we’ve gotten rid of two ball dominat guards in the past for the sake of the team wit rondo and IT.  That said kyrie is too good to let go.  This team without him is not good enough to beat golden state.  Brad needs to figure this one out.

[Silky]

Just need to thin out some of the mouths to feed.

Just need 2 guys in the lineup that dont need to score to be effective.

Brown and smart are examples of this.

Having someone like williams as the center helps as well.

Irving/brown or smart/tatum/horford/baynes

And once healthy and up to nba speed you have gordon that can take tatums place and williams to take baynes place.

Ideally tatum or brown is traed for davis moving gordon to the SL.

Ideal world imo.

Irving
Brown
Hayward
Davis
Williams

Smart
Draft
Semi
Morris
Horford

Something like rozier, yabuselle to suns

Anderson, asset from suns, tatum, 2 picks to NOP

Davis to Boston

[Moranis]

In the minutes Kyrie has been on the floor this year the Celtics have won those minutes 25 times, lost 7 times and were tied twice.  The team as a whole has lost 14 games that Kyrie has played in.  Yes that is correct the C's have lost Kyrie's minutes only 7 times yet somehow have managed to lose 14 games that he has played in so far this year.

If you throw out the first 6 games of the year when Kyrie was still trying to get his sea legs under him the C's are 22W-4L-2T in his minutes, of those last 28 games, and yet somehow the C's lost 12 of those games. 

On the year so far the C's are +235 points in Kyrie's 1099 minutes played.  In the 745 minutes Kyrie has not been on the floor the C's are +2 points.

Kyrie on court net rating +9.1 (would rank 2nd in the league if this were the C's total net rating)
Kyrie off court net rating -1.0 (would rank 21st in the league if this were the C's total net rating)

With Kyrie on court this year the C's have produced a TS% (true shooting) of 58.0% which is a number close to what contenders put up in recent years and would rank 3rd in the league behind G.S. 58.9% and Milwaukee 58.5% this year.  With Kyrie off the court the C's TS% is 53.9% which would rank 25th in the league this year.


Conclusion is that every ounce of evidence says that the C's are under performing when Kyrie has not been in the game, to blame Kyrie for the struggles this team has endured so far this season is nonsense.  This team will be a juggernaut when Hayward gets fully squared away, the injury bug alleviates a little and the youngsters settle into their roles.  Kyrie is vital to the success and title contention for this team.  Stop looking for someone to blame erroneously and just enjoy the ride.

How much of that is Kyrie playing with Horford, Tatum, Smart, and Morris (or whatever starting unit you want to use) though verse someone like Rozier coming in and not playing as much with the starters.  Brown in particular has been unbelievably good the last 2 games, at +33 overall.  Is that because the units have switched around somewhat or is it just a flukey 2 game period (though he was - in all 4 of the games directly preceding that one and 7 of .  Hayward has had by far his best 2 game stretch (at least statistically).  Smart seemed a bit more loose not having to cover the PG quite as much defensively.  Rozier clearly plays better when he gets more minutes. 

Boston may not be better without Irving, but the team keeps right on winning and many of the players improve their play without him in the lineup, such that removing Irving and actually getting assets for him might actually make the team better.  It obviously depends on what the package is, but we now are starting to build up the same sort of evidence that was built up last year that quite frankly Boston wins games at a very similar rate whether Irving plays or not.  If you actually improved other aspects of the team by moving Irving, the team very easily might actually be better.

As I've said all along, Boston should absolutely have concerns about giving Irving a 5 year max.  He has had multiple knee surgeries, has played 75 games just once (2 other seasons over 70), has ended multiple seasons injured, and there are now multiple seasons and multiple teams that when Irving is removed from the lineup the team wins at a pretty similar rate.  Far too many people seemingly just want to ignore all of that and have elevated Irving into a level that just isn't supportable.  He isn't a gold medal superstar.  You can't build a multi year contender around him.  He just isn't reliable enough in his health or his play for that.  If Boston is going to elevate to that level it will be because of Tatum reaching the gold medal status or Boston acquiring someone that has that level. 

[cman88]

In the playoffs you need a guy like Irving who can go off for 40 any game. Although they do seem to be playing more free lately.

I think it is a case of more shots to go around and more defined roles.

[PAOBoston]

I can't wait for this senseless thread to die out.

The fact that is real is disappointing.

The Cs are a significantly better team with Kyrie on the floor. The issue is and has been getting the rest of the rotation to get in line (Rozier/Brown/Hayward).

The lunacy of people advocating getting rid of Kyrie so Rozier can start is truly perplexing.

[td450]

We can argue about stats all day, but last night we saw a noticeable improvement in pace and ball movement. Kyrie is a primary factor, but so was the absence of Morris. This is a tough thing to accept because by many measures those two have carried this team.

One of the reasons IT was so spectacular his last year here was he figured out how to push pace and ball movement, and find his scoring without slowing the ball down.

When we have less movement, Kyrie and Morris get to do what they do best, and Tatum gets to dribble and shoot more, but it kills the pace, and we are just pretty good. When the pace picks up, suddenly Brown, Hayward and Rozier start to get the types of opportunities they thrive on. We become a dominant team.

Kyrie is good enough to play faster, and dribble less. If he figures that out, we win the title. If he doesn't, we're just a nice second tier team.

[elcotte]

This team plays well when they run regardless of who's in the game. The more they commit to getting down the court before defenses are set the better in my opinion.

[gpap]

I can't wait for this senseless thread to die out.

The fact that is real is disappointing.

The Cs are a significantly better team with Kyrie on the floor. The issue is and has been getting the rest of the rotation to get in line (Rozier/Brown/Hayward).

The lunacy of people advocating getting rid of Kyrie so Rozier can start is truly perplexing.

Yeah, I agree. This thread needs to fade away. I know everyone has an opinion but I think some people are taking Kyrie for granted. Scal mentioned this last night and he actually made a good point. The Celts weakness right now is defense. Though Kyrie is not known for defense, he's also not as bad as people think in this department. Also, it's time for guys like Tatum, Brown and Hayward to step up their defense as well, on a consistent basis.

To simply state the Celts are a better team without Kyrie is borderline ridiculous.

Oh, and we still need a CENTER! Trading Kyrie doesn't solve that, does it?

[rollie mass]

Multiple knee surgeries may be technically correct but it was one surgery to repair a broken kneecap and put the hardware in to hold his patella during its healing the 2nd was minimally invasive and a short recovery.
.The knee was found to be structurally sound but he developed an infection around the screws and they had to come out.The bone then grows over and fills the holes.That is why the slower recovery time. Kyrie is finally out of pain, seems quicker and rejuvenated.
That is a huge positive to know his knee has no issues and out of pain after a few years suffering.
This injury was from a perfectly placed knee from the side by Clay Thompson .Pure accident.
Fractured cheekbone another hit to the face,scratched cornea another accident- While with Cavs had a collision in face with D Wades knee and broken toe from awkward fall on a drive   and a broken finger punching a padded wall..A shoulder irritation at tale end of losing season no playoffs and he just took some time off.

You guys the knee is cleaned up and structurally sound.Bone grows back-no tissue damage,no cartilage damage.THAT KNEE IS FINE. I read a comprehensive Doctors report focusing on Kyries knee surgery.

You guys are willing to sabotage a number 1 pick ,rookie of the year 5 times all star,gold Medal winner and hit the winning shot to clinch the NBA finals.A top 10 player having what some say is a fringe MVP season And he wants to resign and play here and get to the rafters
.And you want to throw him under the bus-TEAM BUS!! His teammates don't want that.
.Because Rozier wants more minutes or Tatum wants to be Kobe or Jaylen has a series of injuries that added to his adjustment and Hayward is starting to come back
Ainge stole Kyrie players like him come around very rarely.

Injury prone gives the connotation of fragile but is meant to apply to an area that has reoccurring injury.Like  Curry's ankles.

[Tr1boy]

I can't wait for this senseless thread to die out.

The fact that is real is disappointing.

The Cs are a significantly better team with Kyrie on the floor. The issue is and has been getting the rest of the rotation to get in line (Rozier/Brown/Hayward).

The lunacy of people advocating getting rid of Kyrie so Rozier can start is truly perplexing.

Yeah, I agree. This thread needs to fade away. I know everyone has an opinion but I think some people are taking Kyrie for granted. Scal mentioned this last night and he actually made a good point. The Celts weakness right now is defense. Though Kyrie is not known for defense, he's also not as bad as people think in this department. Also, it's time for guys like Tatum, Brown and Hayward to step up their defense as well, on a consistent basis.

To simply state the Celts are a better team without Kyrie is borderline ridiculous.

Oh, and we still need a CENTER! Trading Kyrie doesn't solve that, does it?

WELL you tell me... how has the defense looked the last two games?

[Tr1boy]

We can argue about stats all day, but last night we saw a noticeable improvement in pace and ball movement. Kyrie is a primary factor, but so was the absence of Morris. This is a tough thing to accept because by many measures those two have carried this team.

One of the reasons IT was so spectacular his last year here was he figured out how to push pace and ball movement, and find his scoring without slowing the ball down.

When we have less movement, Kyrie and Morris get to do what they do best, and Tatum gets to dribble and shoot more, but it kills the pace, and we are just pretty good. When the pace picks up, suddenly Brown, Hayward and Rozier start to get the types of opportunities they thrive on. We become a dominant team.

Kyrie is good enough to play faster, and dribble less. If he figures that out, we win the title. If he doesn't, we're just a nice second tier team.

Good post

[GreenFaith1819]

We're going to need a healthy Irving, Hayward and Big Al to win the title this year.

Simple as that.

Ball movement be danged.

I love Rozier, Tatum and JB like the rest of us, and I have observed some differences in how we play when some players are out.

But THOSE three are going to be crucial to us come May and June. This is NO slight on JB, Tatum or Rozier but we ran into a brick wall against CLE last year in the playoffs.

Bonafide and established Stars break through walls.

Kyrie, GH and Big Al.

Coach Stevens will figure this out.

[Tr1boy]

Hayward highlights from last night.   Look at those extra passes... delight to watch

https://youtu.be/rKhGM6d3enc

[gpap]

I can't wait for this senseless thread to die out.

The fact that is real is disappointing.

The Cs are a significantly better team with Kyrie on the floor. The issue is and has been getting the rest of the rotation to get in line (Rozier/Brown/Hayward).

The lunacy of people advocating getting rid of Kyrie so Rozier can start is truly perplexing.

Yeah, I agree. This thread needs to fade away. I know everyone has an opinion but I think some people are taking Kyrie for granted. Scal mentioned this last night and he actually made a good point. The Celts weakness right now is defense. Though Kyrie is not known for defense, he's also not as bad as people think in this department. Also, it's time for guys like Tatum, Brown and Hayward to step up their defense as well, on a consistent basis.

To simply state the Celts are a better team without Kyrie is borderline ridiculous.

Oh, and we still need a CENTER! Trading Kyrie doesn't solve that, does it?

WELL you tell me... how has the defense looked the last two games?

Not that great. We let up 102 points vs Minnesota, a pretty poor team. Yesterday, it was better but Dallas is also a pretty offensively challenged team.

[Roy H.]

How do these two games compare to our eight game winning streak?

This team has played extremely good — as in, completely dominant — basketball with Kyrie at times.  We’re a top-nine offense and a top-four defense, and Brown and Hayward have both started to progress.  Since a 10-10 start, we’re 13-5.

What’s the problem we’re trying to solve?