Team Performance Not Good enough? Really?

[ozgod]

Jaylen Brown in his last 2 games:

43 FGA
0 AST

———

Source: ESPN

I did re-watch part of the pacers game last night as they showed it again, and I did notice at least 3-4 times when JB drove hard to the lane and after the def collapsed on him he then dished out to open guys, that was only in the first half.  So if guys don't make the shot it doesn't mean the passer wasn't doing the right thing.  I noticed it because I was wondering about the zero assists. 

I just read on another site that last night JT had 6 potential assists, and JB had 5 potential assists.  So the players hit the shots on every JT potential assist, and the players made zero of the shots where JB had a potential assist. 

He also did take a couple of questionable 3s, but lately he has been making an attempt to move the ball, drive and dish.

If you look at the NBA Advanced Stats that track potential assists, JB had three potential assists per game (passes where the recipient shot within 1 dribble, regardless of whether it went in or not) in the last 2 games. But if you look at his assist to pass %  adjusted, which is a measure of the number of passes he makes that could be considered to be assists, free throw assists, or secondary assists (hockey assists) it is 4% which is second last on the team over that stretch. So he's passing the ball but not necessarily creating a good shot for the person he is passing it to.

For comparison, Tatum had 6.5 potential assists per game and a assist to pass % adjusted number of 11%.

click to enlarge


From the eye test, to me the difference between him and JT over the last couple of games is that he's not as decisive when it comes to his kickouts - he tends to overdribble and then when he passes it out it's telegraphed, as opposed to JT who is much quicker into his action and gets rid of the ball quicker after drawing defenders to him. That's one of the things JB can work on, just be more decisive with what you're trying to do. He definitely knows how to do it as he leads the team in that metric at 16.3% over the course of the season:

Click to enlarge

[keevsnick]

To be honest, I don't care about Brown's passing numbers. Late in games or in the playoffs he's going to play a lot of minutes with better passers on the floor (White, Holiday, Tatum). His assist numbers are just not going to be that high.

With Brown I care about three things offensively. Don't turn it over. Be aggressive attacking the basket (especially in transition). Make the simple read to keep the ball moving. I think he's been fine to those three areas. He just needs to hit shots. Right now he's a "play finisher" who is seeing a lot of layups or floaters spin out or fall off the rim. He'll be fine, they don't need him to average 5+ assists to win.

[green_bballers13]

Point of fact:  fans do pay the salaries.

Eh, indirectly. Owners sign the check.

I think of people driving by road workers on a break, beeping their horns or yelling for them to get back to work. Sure, your tax money does indirectly pay that worker's salary, but it doesn't give you the right to be annoying or unpleasant.

The OP is right. These are called basketball games. Not basketball wars. It's supposed to be fun, and a lot of people could use that as a reminder.

[obnoxiousmime]

I think this board is generally pretty fair, which is a reason we're all here and not on some more popular and potentially abusive message board.

If you guys don't think the Celtics front office and staff isn't thinking about how to solve these weaknesses just because they've got the 2nd best record in the league, you're kidding yourself. Obviously, some of us Bostonians are spoiled with all the success the area has experienced the last two decades. However, the Celtics organization itself is setting the same high bar of championship that the fans have. If they are conceding they need to be better in say, close game situations and halfcourt execution, why are we not allowed to talk about it?

[Roy H.]

Point of fact:  fans do pay the salaries.

Eh, indirectly. Owners sign the check.

I think of people driving by road workers on a break, beeping their horns or yelling for them to get back to work. Sure, your tax money does indirectly pay that worker's salary, but it doesn't give you the right to be annoying or unpleasant.

The OP is right. These are called basketball games. Not basketball wars. It's supposed to be fun, and a lot of people could use that as a reminder.

Without fans, there are no leagues.  It's the fans paying out $200+ per ticket to watch the games in person.  That pretty directly pays the salaries of the players.

It's a business.  The fans are the customers.  Like in any business, customers should be able to complain when things are done sloppily or lazily.  Sometimes fan criticism is fair, other times it's not, but all but the most abusive comments are fair to make. 

It's no different than a restaurant.  Everybody will have off moments, but that doesn't mean customers should always bite their tongues.

[lbgreen33]

Point of fact:  fans do pay the salaries.

Eh, indirectly. Owners sign the check.

I think of people driving by road workers on a break, beeping their horns or yelling for them to get back to work. Sure, your tax money does indirectly pay that worker's salary, but it doesn't give you the right to be annoying or unpleasant.

The OP is right. These are called basketball games. Not basketball wars. It's supposed to be fun, and a lot of people could use that as a reminder.

Without fans, there are no leagues.  It's the fans paying out $200+ per ticket to watch the games in person.  That pretty directly pays the salaries of the players.

It's a business.  The fans are the customers.  Like in any business, customers should be able to complain when things are done sloppily or lazily.  Sometimes fan criticism is fair, other times it's not, but all but the most abusive comments are fair to make. 

It's no different than a restaurant.  Everybody will have off moments, but that doesn't mean customers should always bite their tongues.

I don't think I ever said Not to complain, what I said was that comments like the way Tatum's play is unacceptable! I find that silly, Unacceptable for who??  Point out what our players and coaches are doing wrong, fine.

[green_bballers13]

Point of fact:  fans do pay the salaries.

Eh, indirectly. Owners sign the check.

I think of people driving by road workers on a break, beeping their horns or yelling for them to get back to work. Sure, your tax money does indirectly pay that worker's salary, but it doesn't give you the right to be annoying or unpleasant.

The OP is right. These are called basketball games. Not basketball wars. It's supposed to be fun, and a lot of people could use that as a reminder.

Without fans, there are no leagues.  It's the fans paying out $200+ per ticket to watch the games in person.  That pretty directly pays the salaries of the players.

It's a business.  The fans are the customers.  Like in any business, customers should be able to complain when things are done sloppily or lazily.  Sometimes fan criticism is fair, other times it's not, but all but the most abusive comments are fair to make. 

It's no different than a restaurant.  Everybody will have off moments, but that doesn't mean customers should always bite their tongues.

In moderation, sure. Otherwise, we have a name for them- Karens. I wonder if there's a word for perpetually dissatisfied sports fans? Kents?

[Muzzy66]

At the end of the day, people are different in how they perceive the world and how they take news.  You have your glass half empty people, and you have your glass half full people.

I'll give you an example. 

I tend to have a pretty positive 'can do' attitude to life.  If something doesn't go the way I hope or planned, my first reaction is disappointment, and my first response to that is "Ok so things didn't go how I hoped - what am I going to do about it in order to get a better result next time?". 

My gf is polar opposite.  If something doesn't go the way she hopes/plans her first reaction is disappointment, and her immediate response is "that's it, I failed" and to just completely give up.

I have lost track of the number of times I have had to keep pursuing something on her behalf because she missed out on something she really wanted, immediately felt defeated, and had zero motivation to keep trying.  Then eventually I've been successful and found a solution and suddenly she's happy again.

I think it's the same with some people here.  No matter how good the team is doing, people see a few signs of bad play, bad decision making, hero ball, etc and they instantly go into defeated mode.  In the space of 30 minutes people for from "we are the best team in the world I love this team" to "this team is garbage and we will never win anything". 

What people fail to remain conscious of is that EVERY team goes through those struggles, no matter how good.  As I pointed in in the last game thread, even the 73 win Warriors suffered a couple of ugly blowout losses to some pretty crappy teams.  That didn't stop them from finishing the season with the greatest win record in NBA history.

Going through adversity, struggling through bad shooting nights, making some occasional imperfect decisions, making the odd ill timed turnover...these are not "end of the world" events, this is just a reality that every single team in history goes through at some point or other.  Right now we are up around a 77% win record, which means at this rate we are on target to win about 63 games.  That would have is tied with the 1982 Celtics for the 30th greatest win record in NBA history, and that's despite having no Porzingis for the last 4 games. 

We aren't perfect, but things are ultimatley pretty [dang] good.   

Hell I've been a huge Brown hater for a couple of years now, and I'm even feeling much better about him, because I feel like slowly but surely he's starting to higher IQ basketball more often.  Sure he still makes mistakes, but it's all about making progress and getting better day by day, and I think this team is unquestionably better then the one we had this time last year...and they only seem to be improving as the season goes on .,

[ozgod]

At the end of the day, people are different in how they perceive the world and how they take news.  You have your glass half empty people, and you have your glass half full people.

I'll give you an example. 

I tend to have a pretty positive 'can do' attitude to life.  If something doesn't go the way I hope or planned, my first reaction is disappointment, and my first response to that is "Ok so things didn't go how I hoped - what am I going to do about it in order to get a better result next time?". 

My gf is polar opposite.  If something doesn't go the way she hopes/plans her first reaction is disappointment, and her immediate response is "that's it, I failed" and to just completely give up.

I have lost track of the number of times I have had to keep pursuing something on her behalf because she missed out on something she really wanted, immediately felt defeated, and had zero motivation to keep trying.  Then eventually I've been successful and found a solution and suddenly she's happy again.

I think it's the same with some people here.  No matter how good the team is doing, people see a few signs of bad play, bad decision making, hero ball, etc and they instantly go into defeated mode.  In the space of 30 minutes people for from "we are the best team in the world I love this team" to "this team is garbage and we will never win anything". 

What people fail to remain conscious of is that EVERY team goes through those struggles, no matter how good.  As I pointed in in the last game thread, even the 73 win Warriors suffered a couple of ugly blowout losses to some pretty crappy teams.  That didn't stop them from finishing the season with the greatest win record in NBA history.

Going through adversity, struggling through bad shooting nights, making some occasional imperfect decisions, making the odd ill timed turnover...these are not "end of the world" events, this is just a reality that every single team in history goes through at some point or other.  Right now we are up around a 77% win record, which means at this rate we are on target to win about 63 games.  That would have is tied with the 1982 Celtics for the 30th greatest win record in NBA history, and that's despite having no Porzingis for the last 4 games. 

We aren't perfect, but things are ultimatley pretty [dang] good.   

Hell I've been a huge Brown hater for a couple of years now, and I'm even feeling much better about him, because I feel like slowly but surely he's starting to higher IQ basketball more often.  Sure he still makes mistakes, but it's all about making progress and getting better day by day, and I think this team is unquestionably better then the one we had this time last year...and they only seem to be improving as the season goes on .,

Most of this type of behavior you mention is found in the game threads, where people live in the moment. It's actually interesting and entertaining reading a game thread after the fact from beginning to end and see the rollercoaster of emotions people - sometimes lubricated with their favorite alcoholic beverage - go through in a single game. Like that Philly game a couple games ago that we ended up winning by a few points - I checked the thread to see what was happening as I was at dinner and I thought we were losing by 20 based on the comments but we were actually leading but had lost a bigger lead  Someone made a bad pass or missed a three? Team is trash. Team goes on a 6-0 run? We're worldbeaters. Fall behind again? Trash! Incompetent coach/player/insert pinata here. And to the glass half-full/half-empty thing, some people look at a 4 pt lead after the team hasn't played well and say "well it's a good thing we're winning after all that". Others will look at it as "we should have been leading by 20 and blown this team out of the gym if we didn't play so bad!".

Sometimes it's a self defense mechanism, if you have such a low opinion of the team, then if they lose or play bad you won't be surprised. But there are some people who are just down on the team and have been for many years, they don't like the setup, they've been disappointed too many times, they want to keep skicking the boot in, and that's fine, we're all allowed to be as pessimistic or optimistic as we want in our fandom. Some people like venting, it's fun to yell at the TV or post on a forum, just like being able to yell at players even when you're sitting in the nosebleeds at a game. Get stuck into these boffins 

That's why they call fans, fans - it's short for fanatics. And it's the lifeblood of forums like these, we're made up of all different types

Long as nobody takes anything personal it's all good 

[obnoxiousmime]

I don't really know what the OP's original trigger point was. I will say that the IST game did kind of serve as, for lack of a better term, a "wakeup call" for C's fans that think Tatum can reach MVP status. We saw a younger, more dynamic offensive rising superstar in Haliburton with a much inferior supporting cast make all the right decisions, hit the big shots, and be able to find and hit the right passes. Being an efficient shooter and making his teammates better is something Cs fans have been waiting for Tatum to improve on, even with our lowered expectations over multiple seasons.

I can't help but think that's why the disappointment of the loss stung a little more. It wasn't just the loss of a fun opportunity to go to Vegas and be in a competitive, fun experience. It was a reminder that some skills on the basketball court seem to be innate and can't simply be learned with more experience or improved supporting casts.

I've said it ad nauseum, but if Tatum is going to be the best version of himself he has to be an efficiency monster. He's never going to average 8-10 assists a game, it's just not him. However, if he's just a pure scorer then he can't be an inefficient one. He can't be a 35% from 3 guy, it's just bad offense. Not just that, but he needs to be able to finish inside more consistently because he's freakin' 6'9''. It's really that simple.

[ozgod]

I don't really know what the OP's original trigger point was. I will say that the IST game did kind of serve as, for lack of a better term, a "wakeup call" for C's fans that think Tatum can reach MVP status. We saw a younger, more dynamic offensive rising superstar in Haliburton with a much inferior supporting cast make all the right decisions, hit the big shots, and be able to find and hit the right passes. Being an efficient shooter and making his teammates better is something Cs fans have been waiting for Tatum to improve on, even with our lowered expectations over multiple seasons.

I can't help but think that's why the disappointment of the loss stung a little more. It wasn't just the loss of a fun opportunity to go to Vegas and be in a competitive, fun experience. It was a reminder that some skills on the basketball court seem to be innate and can't simply be learned with more experience or improved supporting casts.

I've said it ad nauseum, but if Tatum is going to be the best version of himself he has to be an efficiency monster. He's never going to average 8-10 assists a game, it's just not him. However, if he's just a pure scorer then he can't be an inefficient one. He can't be a 35% from 3 guy, it's just bad offense. Not just that, but he needs to be able to finish inside more consistently because he's freakin' 6'9''. It's really that simple.

Could have been any of the past few game threads really 

[Surferdad]

I don't really know what the OP's original trigger point was. I will say that the IST game did kind of serve as, for lack of a better term, a "wakeup call" for C's fans that think Tatum can reach MVP status. We saw a younger, more dynamic offensive rising superstar in Haliburton with a much inferior supporting cast make all the right decisions, hit the big shots, and be able to find and hit the right passes. Being an efficient shooter and making his teammates better is something Cs fans have been waiting for Tatum to improve on, even with our lowered expectations over multiple seasons.

I can't help but think that's why the disappointment of the loss stung a little more. It wasn't just the loss of a fun opportunity to go to Vegas and be in a competitive, fun experience. It was a reminder that some skills on the basketball court seem to be innate and can't simply be learned with more experience or improved supporting casts.

I've said it ad nauseum, but if Tatum is going to be the best version of himself he has to be an efficiency monster. He's never going to average 8-10 assists a game, it's just not him. However, if he's just a pure scorer then he can't be an inefficient one. He can't be a 35% from 3 guy, it's just bad offense. Not just that, but he needs to be able to finish inside more consistently because he's freakin' 6'9''. It's really that simple.

A more efficient Tatum would be passing the ball more often instead of so much (predictable) iso that defenses can collapse on. In this way, he could easily average 7-9 assists per game. Regarding finishing inside, he is one of the best in the league and uses his 6'9" frame and long arms for that purpose.

[Muzzy66]

I don't really know what the OP's original trigger point was. I will say that the IST game did kind of serve as, for lack of a better term, a "wakeup call" for C's fans that think Tatum can reach MVP status. We saw a younger, more dynamic offensive rising superstar in Haliburton with a much inferior supporting cast make all the right decisions, hit the big shots, and be able to find and hit the right passes. Being an efficient shooter and making his teammates better is something Cs fans have been waiting for Tatum to improve on, even with our lowered expectations over multiple seasons.

I can't help but think that's why the disappointment of the loss stung a little more. It wasn't just the loss of a fun opportunity to go to Vegas and be in a competitive, fun experience. It was a reminder that some skills on the basketball court seem to be innate and can't simply be learned with more experience or improved supporting casts.

I've said it ad nauseum, but if Tatum is going to be the best version of himself he has to be an efficiency monster. He's never going to average 8-10 assists a game, it's just not him. However, if he's just a pure scorer then he can't be an inefficient one. He can't be a 35% from 3 guy, it's just bad offense. Not just that, but he needs to be able to finish inside more consistently because he's freakin' 6'9''. It's really that simple.

Sure.  But in the past 5 games that Indy team also lost to Miami (7th seed) by 10, to Portland (14th seed) by 4, and to Toronto (11th seed) by 1.  Where was Haliburton with his game winning decision / shot making in those games?

By comparison in the past 5 games we have lost one to Indiana (6th seed) by 10 and one to Orlando (3rd seed) by 17.  I was frustrated by both of those losses, but you know what?  I'd rather have two losses to top 6 teams in the east rather than have two losses to lottery teams and one to a fringe playoff team. 

I like Haliburton - he's looking spectacular this year.  In fact if I had to list guys in this league who I feel would best pairs with Tatum he would probably be in the top 2 or 3 - his playmaking, shooting and all-round efficiently would make him an amazing compliment to Tatum. 

But if I have to pick between Tatum and Haliburton right now, I'm taking Tatum.  You see, this is Haliburton's 4th season in the NBA, he's 23 years old.  Do you know how many playoff games he's played?  Zero.  Not one.  By age 23 Tatum was in his 5th NBA season and had never missed the playoffs as long as he had been in the league.  by that point he had already played in 74 playoff games, with overall playoff stats of 229 points, 6.8 reb, 4.4 ast on 44% / 37%, 82% shooting an dan overall playoff record of 41-33 (0.554).

Tatum has the experience and he's proven himself in many playoff games.  Haliburton has not.  By all means he may come out in the next year or two and show that he's a monster in the clutch and the ultimate playoff killer, but we just don't know yet. 

I don't think finishing inside is an issue for Tatum either, especially this year.  He's shooting a career highs of 75% on shots inside 3 feet (he's been above 73% for 4 straight seasons) which is exceptional, especially for a wing.  He's also shooting 42% from 3-10 feet (has been above 41% for four straight seasons now). 

To put it into perspective Lebron for his career has shot 74% inside 3 feet and 42% from 3-10 feet, and Embiid for his career has shot 74% from inside 3 feet and 42% from 3-10 feet.  Kyrie for his career has shot 62% inside 3 feet and 44% from 3-10 feet. 

So Tatum's finishing inside 10 feet has been competitive with guys like Lebron, Kyrie and Embiid - three of the best inside scorers in the entire league. 

Where Tatum has struggled moreso in the past is from midrnage, where he's been shooting 39% for his career on midrange jumpers.  So far this year he's improved that dramatically and is shooting 50% from midrange, which is absolutely elite. 

His three-point shooting has been wildly inconsistent unfortunately, but the upside is that from everywhere other than three he's been absolutely elite this year.

[tenn_smoothie]

Not everyone has the same perspective as the OP, who seems to be content with a very good team with successful regular seasons.

"Not good enough" is all about a playoff perspective and looking at everything thru the lense of our ability to win a title. The criticisms are mostly about things that a) we have been seeing for multiple seasons now without change or improvement and b) weaknesses that we have seen cost us winning a title in the past and thus, have a good chance of resulting in a playoff loss again this year.

There is also the factor of possibly age and what Celtics history you have personally lived through - if you were a fan during the 3 straight decades of title winning teams, 60's 70's & 80's and then even the resurgence of the franchise with Garnett's team, you tend to evaluate the current group on their ability to add banners, not to be exciting to watch and just win a lot of games.

Hey Ibgreen, I'm happy you are enjoying the Celtics. When they play the right way, they are very impressive and fun to watch.

[lbgreen33]

Not everyone has the same perspective as the OP, who seems to be content with a very good team with successful regular seasons.

"Not good enough" is all about a playoff perspective and looking at everything thru the lense of our ability to win a title. The criticisms are mostly about things that a) we have been seeing for multiple seasons now without change or improvement and b) weaknesses that we have seen cost us winning a title in the past and thus, have a good chance of resulting in a playoff loss again this year.

There is also the factor of possibly age and what Celtics history you have personally lived through - if you were a fan during the 3 straight decades of title winning teams, 60's 70's & 80's and then even the resurgence of the franchise with Garnett's team, you tend to evaluate the current group on their ability to add banners, not to be exciting to watch and just win a lot of games.

Hey Ibgreen, I'm happy you are enjoying the Celtics. When they play the right way, they are very impressive and fun to watch.

Hey tenn_smoothie! Great post, I am older now, 62. Yes, I enjoyed a lot of years of winning. Went to a Lot of games through the years, saw Bird play live many times. I also suffered though some really tough years with the C's, like I said, Len Bias, Reggie Lewis, those broke my heart! My point here was I really don't think things are Bad this year? We have a great team, second best record in the league. I read things like Tatum's play is unacceptable.  I just feel that is kind of extreme and just plain not correct. But, of course I get it, We want our players to be the absolute best version of themselves. Also, super frustrating when it seems another player is developing more quickly. But, come on, We could have taken Markelle Fultz or Lonzo Ball, who may not even come back.
A lot of people wanted Josh Jackson. So, yes, when people trash Tatum and JB, I just don't understand? We could have done a lot worse.