Ranking Schroder & Timelord among starters at their position

[PhoSita]

Tatum is not top 10 in the league this season, that is a joke.

Who is better than him?

Jokic
Embiid
Giannis
Durant
Curry
LeBron
Harden
Luka
Butler
Derozan
Morant
Gobert
Trae
Towns
Booker
Lavine
Mitchell
VanVleet
D. Murray
Garland

LaMelo has an argument for sure.

starts to get tough with Domantas Sabonis & Jarrett Allen, but those guys are certainly a lot more efficient.


look, the list can go really long if you care about things like scoring efficiency, passing, being on a good team ....

[Atzar]

As for Rob Williams, I see him as kind of a fringe starter also.  I am not seeing what others seem to see.  He needs to round out his game more.  Right now, he is too limited.  I am OK with him being the 5th best starter on the team or 4th or whatever.

I think Rob is really, really good at a limited set of things but those things happen to be very valuable things for a center.

He's an elite finisher. Very good at catching lobs. Overall very good roll threat.

He's got an insane block percentage, which is fun, but that does probably overstate his defensive value. He definitely seems to be a positive as an interior defender.  Harder question about whether he's especially good as a team defender. I think he's improved in that regard.

He's fine as a rebounder, not amazing, but I think individual rebounding is overrated.

I think Rob could be better as a screen setter. But he does somewhat make up for that by being a very good high-low passer.


In summary I think as long as you don't need him to be a scoring option Rob does almost all the things you need from a center, and he does those things at a fairly high level.

Learning how and when to set screens is one of the biggest areas that Rob should focus on for improvement... even ahead of the jumpshot IMHO. 

Tim Duncan stayed an elite offensive player long after his scoring ability tailed off, and it was largely because he knew exactly when and how to screen his teammates open for shots at their favorite spots on the court.  It's a very valuable skill for a big man to possess, and it's one that should be within Rob's capabilities to improve at. 

[Who]

In summary I think as long as you don't need him to be a scoring option Rob does almost all the things you need from a center, and he does those things at a fairly high level.

This is a key and it requires the 4 other guys to be good offensive players or 3 great offensive players and one spot-up guy.

In this type of an offense, there is no room for Marcus Smart. He doesn't have enough offense to co-exist next to Rob Williams on a Championship level team. We gotta make a choice between the two and Rob Williams is clearly winning that battle right now.

[Moranis]

Tatum is not top 10 in the league this season, that is a joke.

Who is better than him?

Jokic
Embiid
Giannis
Durant
Curry
LeBron
Harden
Luka
Butler
Derozan
Morant
Gobert
Trae
Towns
Booker
Lavine
Mitchell
VanVleet
D. Murray
Garland

LaMelo has an argument for sure.

starts to get tough with Domantas Sabonis & Jarrett Allen, but those guys are certainly a lot more efficient.


look, the list can go really long if you care about things like scoring efficiency, passing, being on a good team ....

Sure if you ignore defense and just include players on much worse teams hello Trae Young, Dejunte Murray, etc.  Once you get down to Gobert you are stretching it.  And I know Gobert has been great this year, but I'd still take Tatum over him if I had to win a playoff series.  I'd take Tatum over DeRozan in that scenario as well, which puts him at 10th.  You can't just ignore defense which is why Tatum is better than Booker and Mitchell.

[Celtics2021]

In summary I think as long as you don't need him to be a scoring option Rob does almost all the things you need from a center, and he does those things at a fairly high level.

This is a key and it requires the 4 other guys to be good offensive players or 3 great offensive players and one spot-up guy.

In this type of an offense, there is no room for Marcus Smart. He doesn't have enough offense to co-exist next to Rob Williams on a Championship level team. We gotta make a choice between the two and Rob Williams is clearly winning that battle right now.

Smart is the best on the team at passing to Williams.  TL shoots 77% off feeds from Smart.  Compare that to 53% from Schroder and 60% from Pritchard (albeit with some sample size concerns for Pritchard).  Smart makes Williams' offense better.

[footey]

Tatum is not top 10 in the league this season, that is a joke.

Who is better than him?

Jokic
Embiid
Giannis
Durant
Curry
LeBron
Harden
Luka
Butler
Derozan
Morant
Gobert
Trae
Towns
Booker
Lavine
Mitchell
VanVleet
D. Murray
Garland

LaMelo has an argument for sure.

starts to get tough with Domantas Sabonis & Jarrett Allen, but those guys are certainly a lot more efficient.


look, the list can go really long if you care about things like scoring efficiency, passing, being on a good team ....

Sure if you ignore defense and just include players on much worse teams hello Trae Young, Dejunte Murray, etc.  Once you get down to Gobert you are stretching it.  And I know Gobert has been great this year, but I'd still take Tatum over him if I had to win a playoff series.  I'd take Tatum over DeRozan in that scenario as well, which puts him at 10th.  You can't just ignore defense which is why Tatum is better than Booker and Mitchell.

You're living in the past. 

[Who]

In summary I think as long as you don't need him to be a scoring option Rob does almost all the things you need from a center, and he does those things at a fairly high level.

This is a key and it requires the 4 other guys to be good offensive players or 3 great offensive players and one spot-up guy.

In this type of an offense, there is no room for Marcus Smart. He doesn't have enough offense to co-exist next to Rob Williams on a Championship level team. We gotta make a choice between the two and Rob Williams is clearly winning that battle right now.

Smart is the best on the team at passing to Williams.  TL shoots 77% off feeds from Smart.  Compare that to 53% from Schroder and 60% from Pritchard (albeit with some sample size concerns for Pritchard).  Smart makes Williams' offense better.

Yes, Smart & R-Will interact well together but together they hurt our team offense. Our spacing. Our lack of dribble penetration and lack of penetrative passing.

We can't carry two guys that limited.

Maybe if we had a 3rd star like Steph Curry or Kevin Durant but a normal 3rd option style star won't be enough to cover the combined weaknesses / limitations of Smart & R-Will together.

[PhoSita]

Sure if you ignore defense and just include players on much worse teams hello Trae Young, Dejunte Murray, etc.  Once you get down to Gobert you are stretching it.  And I know Gobert has been great this year, but I'd still take Tatum over him if I had to win a playoff series.  I'd take Tatum over DeRozan in that scenario as well, which puts him at 10th.  You can't just ignore defense which is why Tatum is better than Booker and Mitchell.

Tatum's team might not even make the playoffs...

I dunno why you would pick Tatum as a playoff closer over DeMar given how the two have played this year.

As for defense, well ... meh. I don't think Tatum is especially impactful there, and I think that being (1) good at shooting and (2) good at playmaking are both more valuable in the aggregate.  The guards I listed are pretty much all much better shooters and much better playmakers than Tatum.

As I see it, as long as Tatum is a poor outside shooter, he's just a high volume scoring wing who doesn't provide nearly as much value as his contract.  Tatum's value is really built on his ability to create a lot of outside shots and hit them at a high rate despite degree of difficulty.  Particularly because he is not that great at getting to the line.

[PhoSita]

In summary I think as long as you don't need him to be a scoring option Rob does almost all the things you need from a center, and he does those things at a fairly high level.

This is a key and it requires the 4 other guys to be good offensive players or 3 great offensive players and one spot-up guy.

In this type of an offense, there is no room for Marcus Smart. He doesn't have enough offense to co-exist next to Rob Williams on a Championship level team. We gotta make a choice between the two and Rob Williams is clearly winning that battle right now.

I agree, especially with Tatum struggling from outside (and Jaylen has been just ok there too), you really can't afford to play both Smart and Rob.

I think the ideal (with this core) would be Tatum & Jaylen back to their career averages from deep, Rob Williams holding down the inside; then at the point you would have a capable, polished pick and roll ballhandler who can hit pull-ups consistently as well as hit spot-up threes; at the four, a guy who can switch 3-5, attack a closeout, and hit open threes (my model would be Cam Johnson).

[Moranis]

Tatum is not top 10 in the league this season, that is a joke.

Who is better than him?

Jokic
Embiid
Giannis
Durant
Curry
LeBron
Harden
Luka
Butler
Derozan
Morant
Gobert
Trae
Towns
Booker
Lavine
Mitchell
VanVleet
D. Murray
Garland

LaMelo has an argument for sure.

starts to get tough with Domantas Sabonis & Jarrett Allen, but those guys are certainly a lot more efficient.


look, the list can go really long if you care about things like scoring efficiency, passing, being on a good team ....

Sure if you ignore defense and just include players on much worse teams hello Trae Young, Dejunte Murray, etc.  Once you get down to Gobert you are stretching it.  And I know Gobert has been great this year, but I'd still take Tatum over him if I had to win a playoff series.  I'd take Tatum over DeRozan in that scenario as well, which puts him at 10th.  You can't just ignore defense which is why Tatum is better than Booker and Mitchell.

You're living in the past.

Boston is a significantly better team when Tatum is in the game then when he is on the bench, even with his down shooting.  You have guys like Chris Broussard putting him on the all star ballot (if Durant can't go).  I just think this narrative that Tatum blows that has been going around this board is hogwash.  He isn't shooting as well as he has in the past, but he has often started years slowly and then turned it on, but even taking that aside, he is still the most important Celtic to the scoreboard, even when a bit off shooting wise.  He has really upped his rebounding.  He is still playing excellent defense.  He is passing at a similar rate (his assists are down slightly, but I suspect a lot of that is because guys like Horford and Brown are missing open shots just as Tatum is). 

[gouki88]

Tatum is not top 10 in the league this season, that is a joke.

Who is better than him?

Jokic
Embiid
Giannis
Durant
Curry
LeBron
Harden
Luka
Butler
Derozan
Morant
Gobert
Trae
Towns
Booker
Lavine
Mitchell
VanVleet
D. Murray
Garland

LaMelo has an argument for sure.

starts to get tough with Domantas Sabonis & Jarrett Allen, but those guys are certainly a lot more efficient.


look, the list can go really long if you care about things like scoring efficiency, passing, being on a good team ....

LOL

Darius Garland was the icing on the cake of this farcical list.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Tatum is not top 10 in the league this season, that is a joke.

Who is better than him?

Jokic
Embiid
Giannis
Durant
Curry
LeBron
Harden
Luka
Butler
Derozan
Morant
Gobert
Trae
Towns
Booker
Lavine
Mitchell
VanVleet
D. Murray
Garland

LaMelo has an argument for sure.

starts to get tough with Domantas Sabonis & Jarrett Allen, but those guys are certainly a lot more efficient.


look, the list can go really long if you care about things like scoring efficiency, passing, being on a good team ....

LOL

Darius Garland was the icing on the cake of this farcical list.

I swear one of the measures some people use for how good a player is is a checkbox that says "Not a Celtic"

[PhoSita]

Tatum is not top 10 in the league this season, that is a joke.

Who is better than him?

Jokic
Embiid
Giannis
Durant
Curry
LeBron
Harden
Luka
Butler
Derozan
Morant
Gobert
Trae
Towns
Booker
Lavine
Mitchell
VanVleet
D. Murray
Garland

LaMelo has an argument for sure.

starts to get tough with Domantas Sabonis & Jarrett Allen, but those guys are certainly a lot more efficient.


look, the list can go really long if you care about things like scoring efficiency, passing, being on a good team ....

LOL

Darius Garland was the icing on the cake of this farcical list.

I swear one of the measures some people use for how good a player is is a checkbox that says "Not a Celtic"

honestly it's a big factor these days

[PhoSita]

Tatum is not top 10 in the league this season, that is a joke.

Who is better than him?

Jokic
Embiid
Giannis
Durant
Curry
LeBron
Harden
Luka
Butler
Derozan
Morant
Gobert
Trae
Towns
Booker
Lavine
Mitchell
VanVleet
D. Murray
Garland

LaMelo has an argument for sure.

starts to get tough with Domantas Sabonis & Jarrett Allen, but those guys are certainly a lot more efficient.


look, the list can go really long if you care about things like scoring efficiency, passing, being on a good team ....

LOL

Darius Garland was the icing on the cake of this farcical list.

The Cavs are 27-19 (4 games ahead of the Celtics)

Garland has a TS of 58%

8 assists per game.

Shooting 36.6% on 6.9 three point attempts per game.

Scoring just shy of 20 ppg on about 16 FGA.


Jayson has more points per game on poorer efficiency (53.2% TS), and he grabs more rebounds.  That's about all I can say for him.  Almost 40% of Jayson's shots are from deep and he's shooting 31.7%.


Tatum is having a *bad* season. This really can't be emphasized enough. He has not been good.  He is the top shot-taker and overall leading scorer on a mediocre offensive team. 

As for Tatum's defense, he has a negative DBPM and averages less than 2 stl+blk per game despite his height + length.


If you were picking for All-Star, I think Darius Garland deserves a vote before Tatum does.

[Somebody]

Tatum is not top 10 in the league this season, that is a joke.

Who is better than him?

Jokic
Embiid
Giannis
Durant
Curry
LeBron
Harden
Luka
Butler
Derozan
Morant
Gobert
Trae
Towns
Booker
Lavine
Mitchell
VanVleet
D. Murray
Garland

LaMelo has an argument for sure.

starts to get tough with Domantas Sabonis & Jarrett Allen, but those guys are certainly a lot more efficient.


look, the list can go really long if you care about things like scoring efficiency, passing, being on a good team ....

LOL

Darius Garland was the icing on the cake of this farcical list.

The Cavs are 27-19 (4 games ahead of the Celtics)

Garland has a TS of 58%

8 assists per game.

Shooting 36.6% on 6.9 three point attempts per game.

Scoring just shy of 20 ppg on about 16 FGA.


Jayson has more points per game on poorer efficiency (53.2% TS), and he grabs more rebounds.  That's about all I can say for him.  Almost 40% of Jayson's shots are from deep and he's shooting 31.7%.


Tatum is having a *bad* season. This really can't be emphasized enough. He has not been good.  He is the top shot-taker and overall leading scorer on a mediocre offensive team. 

As for Tatum's defense, he has a negative DBPM and averages less than 2 stl+blk per game despite his height + length.


If you were picking for All-Star, I think Darius Garland deserves a vote before Tatum does.

I like how you're not being irrationally high on Tatum, but DBPM is a terrible stat for estimating defensive impact - it's a box-based metric that is outclassed by adjusted plus-minus metrics such as EPM, RAPTOR and DARKO in single year samples (and obviously PI/multiyear RAPM for longer samples).

TP anyways!