Author Topic: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank  (Read 17522 times)

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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #75 on: July 20, 2013, 11:46:29 PM »

Offline chambers

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Tanking advocates like myself don't want to be perennial bums like the Bobcats. With Ainge in charge that's basically impossible unless we run into a Greg Oden situation where a star lottery pick goes bad.

I just want people who are so anti-tanking and hate the luck factor involved to consider the luck of getting another 2 guys to make this team a contender.
Here are the facts:
*Rondo has 2 seasons left on his current deal
*Green has 3 seasons left (1 is player option so only 2 guaranteed)

We don't just need one more 'All Star' like Aldridge, we need TWO if we are rolling with Green and Rondo.
Rondo, Green and Aldridge, Sully and Bradley are not putting us into the Finals. They are simply not good enough in today's NBA.

The luck involved of first signing Aldridge and then getting Kevin Love (or someone similar) via a trade is on the same odds of luck involved in getting a top 5 pick.

Am I being completely unrealistic? I don't think so.
It's easy to say that we shouldn't tank because of the luck involved but you have to look at both sides of the argument.

Which 'locked up contract' players are we signing via trade in the next 2 seasons? Or free agency?
And with Rondo having 2 years left, you'd have to think in order for him to stay with Boston that we'd HAVE to get him one of these players within those 2 years right?
I just can't see any scenario where we can land those two extra All Star guys (or one legit franchise guy) before his deal is up.


Personally, I don't have a problem with rebuilding with the guys we have- but I feel the 2014(14' in particular) and 2015 drafts have a talent factor that comes around once every 10 years. It's been 10 years since the last one.
We are in a great position to land Parker, Randle or Wiggins. 3 guys in the top 5 that are once in every 10 year talents. It's these kind of talents that win NBA championships.
The odds of ever winning a championship are so slim that no matter which route we pick, it's probably not happening.

I just feel the best shot of doing that is via the draft.
Teams that get to the NBA finals have drafted their franchise player and he has led them there 95% of the time. You have to give him the right help though.
If you can get me Alridge and another All Star to put next to Rondo and Green in the next 2 years then I'm all for it.
I just want someone to show me how it's possible. People seem to ignore that Rondo walks if he wants in 2015.
What are the odds of that happening compared to getting Wiggins, Parker or Randle and then pairing them with Sully, Olynyk and the other 9 picks we have in the next 5 years?

« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 12:15:19 AM by chambers »
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #76 on: July 20, 2013, 11:58:11 PM »

Offline WeMadeIt17

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Tanking advocates like myself don't want to be perennial bums like the Bobcats. With Ainge in charge that's basically impossible unless we run into a Greg Oden situation where a star lottery pick goes bad.

I just want people who are so anti-tanking and hate the luck factor involved to consider the luck of getting another 2 guys to make this team a contender.
Here are the facts:
*Rondo has 2 seasons left on his current deal
*Green has 3 seasons left (1 is player option so only 2 guaranteed)

We don't just need one more 'All Star' like Aldridge, we need TWO if we are rolling with Green and Rondo.
Rondo, Green and Aldridge, Sully and Bradley are not putting us into the Finals. They are simply not good enough in today's NBA.

The luck involved of first signing Aldridge and then getting Kevin Love (or someone similar) via a trade is on the same odds of luck involved in getting a top 5 pick.

Am I being completely unrealistic? I don't think so.
It's easy to say that we shouldn't tank because of the luck involved but you have to look at both sides of the argument.

Which 'locked up contract' players are we signing via trade in the next 2 seasons? Or free agency?
And with Rondo having 2 years left, you'd have to think in order for him to stay with Boston that we'd HAVE to get him one of these players within those 2 years right?
I just can't see any scenario where we can land those two extra All Star guys (or one legit franchise guy) before his deal is up.


Personally, I don't have a problem with rebuilding with the guys we have- but I feel the 2014(14' in particular) and 2015 drafts have a talent factor that comes around once every 10 years. It's been 10 years since the last one.
We are in a great position to land Parker, Randle or Wiggins. 3 guys in the top 5 that are once in every 10 year talents. It's these kind of talents that win NBA championships.
The odds of ever winning a championship are so slim that no matter which route we pick, it's probably not happening.

I just feel the best shot of doing that is via the draft.
Teams that win a championship have drafted their franchise player and he has led them there 95% of the time.
If you can get me Alridge and another All Star to put next to Rondo and Green in the next 2 years then I'm all for it.
What are the odds of that happening compared to getting Wiggins, Parker or Randle and then pairing them with Sully, Olynyk and the other 9 picks we have in the next 5 years?


While i am with you on being bad and needing franchise players in the draft i just don't think we gain anything by moving Rondo and say gaining Wiggins. I think if Danny's plan involves getting a high pick this season then we need to hold Rondo and Sully out for a little longer and really lock up some losses early in the year. Now on the flip side i think this is where Danny's problem is. Should he try and make moves for guys like LA and Klove, and bring Rondo back early and have him help showcase guys on our team. Or does he say hold off on Rondo and be bad for this season.

Its such a tough spot because there is no for sure thing that we get either of those guys simply cause the players we have haven't shown enough, so its like if we compete and try to showcase guys then again i think this team wins to many games and will lose out on getting a top pick.


UGH. I do think being bad this season is the way to go though. Hopefully we can land Parker or Wiggins. Then turn around and sign a big time free agent and go from there.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2013, 01:12:58 AM »

Offline rondoallaturca

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The luck involved of first signing Aldridge and then getting Kevin Love (or someone similar) via a trade is on the same odds of luck involved in getting a top 5 pick.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, we have enough assets comparable to what Orlando got for Dwight. In other words, we have enough assets to trade for just about anyone who becomes available on the block. Furthermore, as LooseCannon posted in another thread, we will have enough cap space for a max free agent, too. So, the only odds would be Ainge actually converting the assets/cap into two stars. Given Ainge's history, I'd say that's pretty darn high, especially when players will have the chance to play next to Rondo. Furthermore, as it stands, this team is going to get a 5-10 pick anyway. I've probably seen 10 different names go as possible top 5 picks. That speaks volumes about how top-loaded this 2014 draft is. What are the chances one of those high potential players falls into the 5-10 range for Ainge to draft? Again, pretty darn high.

Meanwhile, what are the chances we get even value in return for Rondo? What are the chances that other teams start tanking and blow up their team even worse than Boston? Even if that doesn't happen, what are the chances we get a top 3 pick anyway? Even if you finish as a bottom 3 team, you aren't guaranteed a top 3 pick. Furthermore, even if we do get a top 3 pick, what are the chances a FA would rather come to Boston when a rookie is their best player, not Rondo? What are the chances we build up a contender around a Wiggins-type rookie if one of the greatest players of all time needed to switch teams before winning? And the list keeps going...

I don't know about you, but I'll stick with not tanking rather than tanking. You're right in that the probability of anything working is slim to none, but I'd rather maximize my opportunities (and consequently maximize the probability of succeeding), rather than sticking to one and only one option.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2013, 01:35:28 AM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

You mean trade? Drafting has rarely translated into success. Guys like Duncan and Dirk are a rarity. I mean, you use Lebron as your example, which doesn't make sense at all because he needed to get traded before winning his rings.

NO, I mean draft. If we are throwing out the option of trading away Rondo and Green, then we don't have the chips necessary to trade for a franchise level player. If we did, then I am all in on that. Trade our scrubs for Lebron and then we will win it all...  ::)

Back to reality, our best hope is trading with a team who is bad and will likely have a low pick and hope that Rondo doesn't play well into the season. This way we get a couple of upside guys along with another shot at Wiggins or Parker. That along with our own low pick and one later in the round we have a shot. If it doesn't happen, we do it again next year.

Had Lebron stayed Bosch would have been in Cleveland and another guy would have joined them. He still would have won a championship.

Why does your world revolve around Lebron? Can no one else win a championship unless he's on their team? And what proof do you have that Bosh would join Lebron in Cleveland?

Dwight netted Orlando two young prospects, one stash, Afflalo, Harrington, three 1st round picks, and two 2nd round picks. You're telling me Boston doesn't have two young prospects (Sully, Olynyk, Bradley...even Brooks to an extent), doesn't have a stash (Faverani and Melo), doesn't have an Afflalo (Green, who is better), doesn't have a Harrington (Bass or Wallace), three 1st round picks (9 in 5 years), and two 2nd round picks (not sure about specifics but we definitely have at least two).

And I have to point two things out:
1. Orlando got that massive haul because it was a huge four-team trade. Boston has all those assets JUST BY THEMSELVES.
2. Dwight is a top-tier can't-miss superstar-level free agent. Probably the only other players who can command that sort of haul in the NBA right now are Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, James Harden, Chris Paul, and Derrick Rose.

It's absolutely ludicrous to say we don't have the chips needed to make a swing at one of those top-tier franchise player. We most certainly do. And that means we also have more than enough pieces for stars like Aldridge or Love, should the opportunity present itself.

First off, my world doesn't remotely revolve around Lebron. I hate that guy with a passion you can't imagine. That being said, he is the player who stands between every team in the league and a championship for the next few years. As far as Bosch going to Cleveland, he came out and said so. That if Lebron stayed in Cleveland he would have signed there.

Take a look at the championships won in the past 5-10 years. If you didn't have a Lebron, Kobe, a Duncan, a Dirk, or a combo of guys like PP, KG, and Ray, you weren't legitimate contenders. You DO NOT win without a superstar. We do not have one, and NO we do not have the chips to trade for one. Rondo is not going to get you one. Neither is a collection of young maybe's. We are not a destination for ANY top tier free agent, so the truth of the matter is we are going to have to draft one. Not going to happen outside the top 10. Teams aren't going to trade you a superstar unless they are on the downside of their careers. Without a superstar or two in place already that doesn't do you any good. That's where we are at. Plain and simple.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2013, 02:13:45 AM »

Offline rondoallaturca

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First off, my world doesn't remotely revolve around Lebron. I hate that guy with a passion you can't imagine. That being said, he is the player who stands between every team in the league and a championship for the next few years. As far as Bosch going to Cleveland, he came out and said so. That if Lebron stayed in Cleveland he would have signed there.

Take a look at the championships won in the past 5-10 years. If you didn't have a Lebron, Kobe, a Duncan, a Dirk, or a combo of guys like PP, KG, and Ray, you weren't legitimate contenders. You DO NOT win without a superstar. We do not have one, and NO we do not have the chips to trade for one. Rondo is not going to get you one. Neither is a collection of young maybe's. We are not a destination for ANY top tier free agent, so the truth of the matter is we are going to have to draft one. Not going to happen outside the top 10. Teams aren't going to trade you a superstar unless they are on the downside of their careers. Without a superstar or two in place already that doesn't do you any good. That's where we are at. Plain and simple.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5357607

It was Toronto that was willing to go through with the S&T, not Bosh. Apparently he actually had no interest in it.

Furthermore, why are we not a destination for a top free agent? Is there a rule in the NBA preventing top free agents from signing in Boston? Aside from that, why is the only alternative to free agency drafting? What happened to trading? You say that trading only works when it involves superstars on the downside of their careers... Um, Chris Paul? Dwight Howard? James Harden?

Right now we have the assets to trade for a max level star. We will also have cap room to sign yet another max level star. It's not a guarantee Ainge can successfully convert the assets/cap into tangible players, but the fact remains that we're in a situation to do so, so the truth of the matter is we are by no means forced to draft in order to get a star. That's where we are at. Plain and simple.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2013, 02:33:32 AM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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First off, my world doesn't remotely revolve around Lebron. I hate that guy with a passion you can't imagine. That being said, he is the player who stands between every team in the league and a championship for the next few years. As far as Bosch going to Cleveland, he came out and said so. That if Lebron stayed in Cleveland he would have signed there.

Take a look at the championships won in the past 5-10 years. If you didn't have a Lebron, Kobe, a Duncan, a Dirk, or a combo of guys like PP, KG, and Ray, you weren't legitimate contenders. You DO NOT win without a superstar. We do not have one, and NO we do not have the chips to trade for one. Rondo is not going to get you one. Neither is a collection of young maybe's. We are not a destination for ANY top tier free agent, so the truth of the matter is we are going to have to draft one. Not going to happen outside the top 10. Teams aren't going to trade you a superstar unless they are on the downside of their careers. Without a superstar or two in place already that doesn't do you any good. That's where we are at. Plain and simple.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5357607

It was Toronto that was willing to go through with the S&T, not Bosh. Apparently he actually had no interest in it.

Furthermore, why are we not a destination for a top free agent? Is there a rule in the NBA preventing top free agents from signing in Boston? Aside from that, why is the only alternative to free agency drafting? What happened to trading? You say that trading only works when it involves superstars on the downside of their careers... Um, Chris Paul? Dwight Howard? James Harden?

Right now we have the assets to trade for a max level star. We will also have cap room to sign yet another max level star. It's not a guarantee Ainge can successfully convert the assets/cap into tangible players, but the fact remains that we're in a situation to do so, so the truth of the matter is we are by no means forced to draft in order to get a star. That's where we are at. Plain and simple.

That isn't what happened. Yes Toronto said that they would be willing to work with a sign and trade if that took place, however Bosch came out and said he was going wherever Lebron landed. It was their plan for a year or so. Whatever.

And here is the proof about the free agent situation. Name me ONE top tier cornerstone free agent that signed in Boston. Ever...  I think I will be waiting awhile for your example...

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #81 on: July 21, 2013, 05:35:52 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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We don't just need one more 'All Star' like Aldridge, we need TWO if we are rolling with Green and Rondo.
Rondo, Green and Aldridge, Sully and Bradley are not putting us into the Finals. They are simply not good enough in today's NBA.

I'm not necessarily agreeing that you need two such players, but if you did, you should go ahead and acquire the first one before you have a deal lined up for the second one, or even a good idea of who you might target as the second guy, so long as getting the first guy does screw up your cap situation or use up all your assets in a way that makes it difficult to get that second star.
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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #82 on: July 21, 2013, 05:42:06 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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And here is the proof about the free agent situation. Name me ONE top tier cornerstone free agent that signed in Boston. Ever...  I think I will be waiting awhile for your example...

How many top tier free agents has Boston actually chased strongly and missed out on?

Given how free agency has been shaking out recently, I think the Celtics will be seen as a top free agent destination next summer if Rondo looks like a star and leads the team to a first-round exit in the playoffs because the Celtics will be viewed as an exciting young team on the rise.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2013, 09:29:39 AM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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And here is the proof about the free agent situation. Name me ONE top tier cornerstone free agent that signed in Boston. Ever...  I think I will be waiting awhile for your example...

How many top tier free agents has Boston actually chased strongly and missed out on?

Given how free agency has been shaking out recently, I think the Celtics will be seen as a top free agent destination next summer if Rondo looks like a star and leads the team to a first-round exit in the playoffs because the Celtics will be viewed as an exciting young team on the rise.

That's it... We didn't WANT any top tier franchise free agents...  ::)

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #84 on: July 21, 2013, 10:37:34 AM »

Offline BballTim

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And here is the proof about the free agent situation. Name me ONE top tier cornerstone free agent that signed in Boston. Ever...  I think I will be waiting awhile for your example...

How many top tier free agents has Boston actually chased strongly and missed out on?

Given how free agency has been shaking out recently, I think the Celtics will be seen as a top free agent destination next summer if Rondo looks like a star and leads the team to a first-round exit in the playoffs because the Celtics will be viewed as an exciting young team on the rise.

That's it... We didn't WANT any top tier franchise free agents...  ::)

  Have we ever had the cap space to pursue a top tier free agent?

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #85 on: July 21, 2013, 11:00:30 AM »

Offline rondoallaturca

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That isn't what happened. Yes Toronto said that they would be willing to work with a sign and trade if that took place, however Bosch came out and said he was going wherever Lebron landed. It was their plan for a year or so. Whatever.

And here is the proof about the free agent situation. Name me ONE top tier cornerstone free agent that signed in Boston. Ever...  I think I will be waiting awhile for your example...

That's it... We didn't WANT any top tier franchise free agents...  ::)


...You just answered your own question. We've never really pursued any franchise free agents. Now, if we were like Dallas and stuck out on Deron and Dwight, then you might have some credibility. But Boston has never expressed interest in pursuing any star free agents. Most recently, Allen and KG were both acquired by trade, and obviously both of them, in addition to Pierce, meant that we didn't have cap room to sign one anyway.

So, there's absolutely no proof whatsoever to say that free agents don't want to come to Boston. Plenty of high-profile players have expressed praise and interest with playing with Rondo. Boston has a historic franchise. All the talk about lack of nightlife is garbage. Players are on the road half the time, and if their primary interest when it comes to basketball is how great the nightlife is, I wouldn't want him playing for my team anyway.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #86 on: July 21, 2013, 11:09:44 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
  Have we ever had the cap space to pursue a top tier free agent?

No, and we don't have the weather either.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #87 on: July 21, 2013, 07:38:46 PM »

Offline winsomme

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I'm not so much worried about Green. I think he is a guy who can get nice stats on a team that still doesn't win much. Think of how Big Al was able to establish himself as a go-to player on a team that lost 18 games in a row...

Rondo is the guy who could win us games that we would rather lose at this point. The problem, however, is that you can't just give him away. This is a major quandary and part the reason this trade away KG and PP never totally made sense.

Honestly, if Danny can't figure out how to get us a top 5 pick in this draft without selling Rondo for 10 cents on the dollar, this will have been a completely botched operation because nothing we got back in the KG/PP trade is actually that valuable.

We would have been much better off seeing what this team could have done with Rondo, Sully, and Olynyk adding on to Pierce, KG, and a revived Green. That team would have been very fun to watch. Olynyk looks like a real player ready to contribute right away.

Still lamenting not getting to see that team play together.