Author Topic: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank  (Read 17521 times)

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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2013, 03:25:07 PM »

Offline gpap

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I'd hate to agree with you again, but there you go (lol!!)

I think when it comes to Rondo, there's two trains of thought.

Some fans think he's a franchise player you can build around, where others don't.

I fall in the category where I just don't think he's a franchise player.

Sorry, but I don't look at him as a guy you can build around. Now could he be a key piece to a contending team? Yes. But I just find too many imperfections in his game to be a "go to guy." (ie....can't knock down consistent jumper, frequent turn overs, attitude issues, passes up too many shots, etc.)

I am off the belief that if the Celts can add a guy like Kevin Love or Lamarcus Aldridge, then perfect. A Rondo-Bradley-Green-insert name (Love, Aldridge) could be a VERY good core.

However, with just Rondo and Green, I don't see it.

If you could deal Rondo (and Green) now and get some value for the long term, you'd have to do it.

I believe we should do this right. Either add star players to Rondo and contend, or tear it down completely, jettison Rondo, Green and whoever else and start from scratch.

To me, a team of Rondo/Green/Bradley/Olynk/Sully is the worse thing possible. Not good enough to be a championship, not bad enough to be a lottery pick.

I go keep going back to Detroit. A deal involving Rondo being swapped for either Monroe or Drummond would be perfect. I'd rather build around a big guy than a point guard.

...?

Obviously if Rondo is kept, Boston is adding stars around him. I mean, not even Lebron could succeed as a one man wrecking crew.

I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2013, 03:26:41 PM »

Offline rondoallaturca

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I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Well obviously... Rondo is a PASS-FIRST point guard. Obviously he's never going to be THE man.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2013, 03:30:45 PM »

Offline gpap

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I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Well obviously... Rondo is a PASS-FIRST point guard. Obviously he's never going to be THE man.

I know. But what I am trying to say is I don't look at Rondo as a "can't miss or can't trade" player for that reason. Because he passes first.

It's just a matter of opinion. Me personally, I'd rather my point guard and/or star player be someone who takes a game over by himself, instead of deferring to his teammates.

Someone who stands out in a timeout huddle and asks for the ball with 3 seconds left to take the big shot, when your team is down by one.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2013, 03:33:47 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Well obviously... Rondo is a PASS-FIRST point guard. Obviously he's never going to be THE man.

Most of the folks here are in this mindset that we should build around Rondo.

How about rebuild and have Rondo as a big piece but not the main piece? A lot of teams have a Main Piece and no supporting cast.

If we develop players right, we are in a position to acquire a main piece to add along an already superb supporting cast in Rondo and to some extent Green. Why can't we just keep them and use the assets we have instead of completely gut the team to get this main piece?
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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2013, 03:34:28 PM »

Offline Spicoli

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This team will miss the playoffs and will be guaranteed a lottery spot any way it goes. I guess the question now is, how high will the lottery pick be. The only teams with less talent on their rosters is Charlotte, Philly, maybe Sacramento, Milwaukee, and Phoenix. Every other team in the league, i would take their roster over the C's current roster. I love Jeff Green, so i wouldn't trade him. I would however trade Rondo, whose skill set is useless for a rebuilding team. A guy who only brings his A game during the playoffs, Rondo is going to coast in the regular season like he always does, and with the lack of talent on this team to make up for his coasting, it's a recipe for disaster. Trade Rondo for any amount of draft picks that you can get. Keep Green. Lets hope for a high lottery pick.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2013, 03:38:28 PM »

Offline Larry for 3

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I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Well obviously... Rondo is a PASS-FIRST point guard. Obviously he's never going to be THE man.

I know. But what I am trying to say is I don't look at Rondo as a "can't miss or can't trade" player for that reason. Because he passes first.

It's just a matter of opinion. Me personally, I'd rather my point guard and/or star player be someone who takes a game over by himself, instead of deferring to his teammates.

Someone who stands out in a timeout huddle and asks for the ball with 3 seconds left to take the big shot, when your team is down by one.

exactly, that's why i dont get people who think this team is winning 42 games with the way the roster is right now. It just isnt gonna happen. Never mind the fact that we have no depth, no paint presence, and no rim protection, but offensively who is Rondo passing to? It's on thing when he's passing to HOFers who shoot it well and when they are not they don the other things to help the team win, but where are the shooters on this roster, where's the inside game?  People are not thinking this out clearly. This roster right now is maybe 30 wins. And you dont think opposing teams on the Celtics on real options are rondo and green, they will key on those guys to force the ball elsewhere, and look at the other options, not exactly All stars; it's gonna be a long year with or without rondo. 
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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2013, 06:34:13 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Well obviously... Rondo is a PASS-FIRST point guard. Obviously he's never going to be THE man.

Most of the folks here are in this mindset that we should build around Rondo.

How about rebuild and have Rondo as a big piece but not the main piece? A lot of teams have a Main Piece and no supporting cast.

If we develop players right, we are in a position to acquire a main piece to add along an already superb supporting cast in Rondo and to some extent Green. Why can't we just keep them and use the assets we have instead of completely gut the team to get this main piece?

I'm okay with this thought, however you have one REALLY big problem. HOW are you going to get this "main piece"?! I agree that Rondo coupled with 2 better franchise players can win it all. (although with 3 of them KG, PP, and Ray we only did it once) You stick Rondo on a team with Lebron and Wade, and yes they will win it all.

You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2013, 06:38:11 PM »

Offline rondoallaturca

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You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

You mean trade? Drafting has rarely translated into success. Guys like Duncan and Dirk are a rarity. I mean, you use Lebron as your example, which doesn't make sense at all because he needed to get traded before winning his rings.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2013, 07:06:30 PM »

Offline rjb182

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One thing I really feel needs to be remembered when talking about different ways to build this team:

Most of the time, nothing works.

There are 30 teams in the league. So in a completely random league, you'd only win one championship every 30 years. And of course, the league is not random, it's a league where great teams can win two, three, six, or eleven championships. Which makes the pickings even slimmer for everyone else.

97 percent of teams are going to fail, every single season. So when we talk about "You need to do this or this or THAT" to build a champion, we're really just giving our best guesses based on logic and a small sample size of previous champions and a modest sample size of legit contenders.

I think the important thing is not necessarily what plan you use, but having a plan and giving it a chance to succeed. I'd prefer a high draft pick this year based on my observations, but if you think we should build around Rondo or Rondo and Green or sign free agents or hang around the Big And Tall section at K-Mart looking for our next franchise center...

Well, any of that COULD work. But it probably won't. We're just playing the odds at this point, and how you see the odds is partly data-driven (one would hope) and partly subjective.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2013, 09:37:08 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

You mean trade? Drafting has rarely translated into success. Guys like Duncan and Dirk are a rarity. I mean, you use Lebron as your example, which doesn't make sense at all because he needed to get traded before winning his rings.

NO, I mean draft. If we are throwing out the option of trading away Rondo and Green, then we don't have the chips necessary to trade for a franchise level player. If we did, then I am all in on that. Trade our scrubs for Lebron and then we will win it all...  ::)

Back to reality, our best hope is trading with a team who is bad and will likely have a low pick and hope that Rondo doesn't play well into the season. This way we get a couple of upside guys along with another shot at Wiggins or Parker. That along with our own low pick and one later in the round we have a shot. If it doesn't happen, we do it again next year.

Had Lebron stayed Bosch would have been in Cleveland and another guy would have joined them. He still would have won a championship.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #70 on: July 20, 2013, 09:40:42 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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One thing I really feel needs to be remembered when talking about different ways to build this team:

Most of the time, nothing works.

There are 30 teams in the league. So in a completely random league, you'd only win one championship every 30 years. And of course, the league is not random, it's a league where great teams can win two, three, six, or eleven championships. Which makes the pickings even slimmer for everyone else.

97 percent of teams are going to fail, every single season. So when we talk about "You need to do this or this or THAT" to build a champion, we're really just giving our best guesses based on logic and a small sample size of previous champions and a modest sample size of legit contenders.

I think the important thing is not necessarily what plan you use, but having a plan and giving it a chance to succeed. I'd prefer a high draft pick this year based on my observations, but if you think we should build around Rondo or Rondo and Green or sign free agents or hang around the Big And Tall section at K-Mart looking for our next franchise center...

Well, any of that COULD work. But it probably won't. We're just playing the odds at this point, and how you see the odds is partly data-driven (one would hope) and partly subjective.

Considering the fact we have won 17 of them out of 67 and 4 out of the last 32, you're math doesn't quite add up. Unless you are counting us among the scrubs of the NBA...

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2013, 09:51:21 PM »

Offline Vox_Populi

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I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Well obviously... Rondo is a PASS-FIRST point guard. Obviously he's never going to be THE man.

I know. But what I am trying to say is I don't look at Rondo as a "can't miss or can't trade" player for that reason. Because he passes first.

It's just a matter of opinion. Me personally, I'd rather my point guard and/or star player be someone who takes a game over by himself, instead of deferring to his teammates.

Someone who stands out in a timeout huddle and asks for the ball with 3 seconds left to take the big shot, when your team is down by one.
You must be a huge fan of Rondo then. With games like 18/17/20, 29/18/13, 32/15/10, 12/10/22/6 and I'm sure others, all of which we won by the way, I'm not sure if there's a point guard who takes over a game so completely.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #72 on: July 20, 2013, 10:00:26 PM »

Offline gpap

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You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

You mean trade? Drafting has rarely translated into success. Guys like Duncan and Dirk are a rarity. I mean, you use Lebron as your example, which doesn't make sense at all because he needed to get traded before winning his rings.

NO, I mean draft. If we are throwing out the option of trading away Rondo and Green, then we don't have the chips necessary to trade for a franchise level player. If we did, then I am all in on that. Trade our scrubs for Lebron and then we will win it all...  ::)

Back to reality, our best hope is trading with a team who is bad and will likely have a low pick and hope that Rondo doesn't play well into the season. This way we get a couple of upside guys along with another shot at Wiggins or Parker. That along with our own low pick and one later in the round we have a shot. If it doesn't happen, we do it again next year.

Had Lebron stayed Bosch would have been in Cleveland and another guy would have joined them. He still would have won a championship.

Problem there is you'll have a hard time finding a bad team agreeing to deal their 2014 1st in exchange for a potentially injured Rondo.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2013, 10:20:26 PM »

Offline rondoallaturca

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You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

You mean trade? Drafting has rarely translated into success. Guys like Duncan and Dirk are a rarity. I mean, you use Lebron as your example, which doesn't make sense at all because he needed to get traded before winning his rings.

NO, I mean draft. If we are throwing out the option of trading away Rondo and Green, then we don't have the chips necessary to trade for a franchise level player. If we did, then I am all in on that. Trade our scrubs for Lebron and then we will win it all...  ::)

Back to reality, our best hope is trading with a team who is bad and will likely have a low pick and hope that Rondo doesn't play well into the season. This way we get a couple of upside guys along with another shot at Wiggins or Parker. That along with our own low pick and one later in the round we have a shot. If it doesn't happen, we do it again next year.

Had Lebron stayed Bosch would have been in Cleveland and another guy would have joined them. He still would have won a championship.

Why does your world revolve around Lebron? Can no one else win a championship unless he's on their team? And what proof do you have that Bosh would join Lebron in Cleveland?

Dwight netted Orlando two young prospects, one stash, Afflalo, Harrington, three 1st round picks, and two 2nd round picks. You're telling me Boston doesn't have two young prospects (Sully, Olynyk, Bradley...even Brooks to an extent), doesn't have a stash (Faverani and Melo), doesn't have an Afflalo (Green, who is better), doesn't have a Harrington (Bass or Wallace), three 1st round picks (9 in 5 years), and two 2nd round picks (not sure about specifics but we definitely have at least two).

And I have to point two things out:
1. Orlando got that massive haul because it was a huge four-team trade. Boston has all those assets JUST BY THEMSELVES.
2. Dwight is a top-tier can't-miss superstar-level free agent. Probably the only other players who can command that sort of haul in the NBA right now are Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, James Harden, Chris Paul, and Derrick Rose.

It's absolutely ludicrous to say we don't have the chips needed to make a swing at one of those top-tier franchise player. We most certainly do. And that means we also have more than enough pieces for stars like Aldridge or Love, should the opportunity present itself.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2013, 11:39:38 PM »

Offline bleedGREENdon

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You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

You mean trade? Drafting has rarely translated into success. Guys like Duncan and Dirk are a rarity. I mean, you use Lebron as your example, which doesn't make sense at all because he needed to get traded before winning his rings.

NO, I mean draft. If we are throwing out the option of trading away Rondo and Green, then we don't have the chips necessary to trade for a franchise level player. If we did, then I am all in on that. Trade our scrubs for Lebron and then we will win it all...  ::)

Back to reality, our best hope is trading with a team who is bad and will likely have a low pick and hope that Rondo doesn't play well into the season. This way we get a couple of upside guys along with another shot at Wiggins or Parker. That along with our own low pick and one later in the round we have a shot. If it doesn't happen, we do it again next year.

Had Lebron stayed Bosch would have been in Cleveland and another guy would have joined them. He still would have won a championship.

Why does your world revolve around Lebron? Can no one else win a championship unless he's on their team? And what proof do you have that Bosh would join Lebron in Cleveland?

Dwight netted Orlando two young prospects, one stash, Afflalo, Harrington, three 1st round picks, and two 2nd round picks. You're telling me Boston doesn't have two young prospects (Sully, Olynyk, Bradley...even Brooks to an extent), doesn't have a stash (Faverani and Melo), doesn't have an Afflalo (Green, who is better), doesn't have a Harrington (Bass or Wallace), three 1st round picks (9 in 5 years), and two 2nd round picks (not sure about specifics but we definitely have at least two).

And I have to point two things out:
1. Orlando got that massive haul because it was a huge four-team trade. Boston has all those assets JUST BY THEMSELVES.
2. Dwight is a top-tier can't-miss superstar-level free agent. Probably the only other players who can command that sort of haul in the NBA right now are Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, James Harden, Chris Paul, and Derrick Rose.

It's absolutely ludicrous to say we don't have the chips needed to make a swing at one of those top-tier franchise player. We most certainly do. And that means we also have more than enough pieces for stars like Aldridge or Love, should the opportunity present itself.

I 100% agree with you, but to be honest id only want to set out any where near a haul for only the likes of carmelo anthony. I dont see us winning a championship besides drafting Wiggins or Parker, and combining them with our core we have right now AND trading or picking up a star talent big man in free agency. Thats my dream scenerio this year, we tank. Keep our core throughout the year. At the end of the year maybe draft night, we trade our assets, Sully,AB,Hump,Multiple Picks, Bogans, Marshon Brooks, for a big man in the likes of Aldridge or Cousins, and combine them with Rondo, JG, Wiggins/Parker. Then we can talk about a championship.

All in all, I see our best scenerio being that we tank this season, get our top 5 draft pick, sign close to a max or a max deal free agent, and combine them with our core, and Danny and co, ARE BACK IN BUS.