Author Topic: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)  (Read 366874 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #150 on: January 10, 2017, 05:35:09 PM »

Offline oldtype

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1677
  • Tommy Points: 143
His idea is perfect if you assume that NBA fans, players, agents, owners, and the league office are all robots.  To pull it off in reality, you need amazingly good communication, networking, and marketing skills, which Hinkie clearly didn't have.
It definitely sounds like he upset the media and agents.  Rivals/owners were upset he was taking advantage of a loophole by tanking for the best prospects, but I think the bigger issue was how Philly was taking advantage of revenue sharing to turn a profit despite not making attempts to put together a competitive team that paid salaries to vets.

Long-term none of this stuff might matter, because within the next few years if Philly makes the playoffs with their 2+ franchise players, Hinkie will be seen as a bigger hero than he already is.   And if that article is true, multiple teams are already interested in hiring him once his non-compete ends.

Couple of things here:

1) From a GM's perspective, it doesn't matter that a strategy is good if the end result is that you get fired and somebody else takes credit.

2) As for Hinkie getting hired, why would you need to do that? His grand strategy itself isn't difficult to emulate and he was just okay~good at the nuts and bolts duties of a GM (trading, drafting etc.)  If you're going to super-tank, just hire somebody who's super charismatic that can sell it to the fans and the rest of the league. You don't need Sam Hinkie.
I suggest you read that article if your assumption is that Hinkie will construct a 3+ year tank job wherever he goes.   http://www.si.com/nba/2016/11/30/sam-hinkie-after-the-process-philadelphia-76ers

That plan made sense in Philly.  The biggest piece of credit you can give HInkie is that he didn't abandon a strategy once he set course despite the fact he was facing a lot of misguided criticism.    That strategy isn't necessarily what he'd do on another team with other options.

I've read the article.  What are the things that Hinkie has proven to be good at other than a willingness to boldly tear everything down? If you're another team, why not just hire some other smart dude who hasn't ruined his relationship with half the league.


Great words from a great man

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #151 on: January 10, 2017, 05:38:54 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21238
  • Tommy Points: 2016
His idea is perfect if you assume that NBA fans, players, agents, owners, and the league office are all robots.  To pull it off in reality, you need amazingly good communication, networking, and marketing skills, which Hinkie clearly didn't have.
It definitely sounds like he upset the media and agents.  Rivals/owners were upset he was taking advantage of a loophole by tanking for the best prospects, but I think the bigger issue was how Philly was taking advantage of revenue sharing to turn a profit despite not making attempts to put together a competitive team that paid salaries to vets.

Long-term none of this stuff might matter, because within the next few years if Philly makes the playoffs with their 2+ franchise players, Hinkie will be seen as a bigger hero than he already is.   And if that article is true, multiple teams are already interested in hiring him once his non-compete ends.

Couple of things here:

1) From a GM's perspective, it doesn't matter that a strategy is good if the end result is that you get fired and somebody else takes credit.

2) As for Hinkie getting hired, why would you need to do that? His grand strategy itself isn't difficult to emulate and he was just okay~good at the nuts and bolts duties of a GM (trading, drafting etc.)  If you're going to super-tank, just hire somebody who's super charismatic that can sell it to the fans and the rest of the league. You don't need Sam Hinkie.
I suggest you read that article if your assumption is that Hinkie will construct a 3+ year tank job wherever he goes.   http://www.si.com/nba/2016/11/30/sam-hinkie-after-the-process-philadelphia-76ers

That plan made sense in Philly.  The biggest piece of credit you can give HInkie is that he didn't abandon a strategy once he set course despite the fact he was facing a lot of misguided criticism.    That strategy isn't necessarily what he'd do on another team with other options.

I've read the article.  What are the things that Hinkie has proven to be good at other than a willingness to boldly tear everything down? If you're another team, why not just hire some other smart dude who hasn't ruined his relationship with half the league.
If you read it, then you probably remember there's an entire section in there that talks about why tanking made the most sense for Philly and why it might not make sense if he took over a team like Portland or something that already has established talent in need of better supporting cast.

Like I said, I had this impression of Hinkie has some random dolt Philly owners had run their desired tankjob.  I came away from that article thinking Hinkie is a very intelligent guy who will look for whatever advantage he can take.  I didn't give the guy enough credit.  He's someone who has vision.  He succeeded in helping Philly set themselves up gorgeously heading forward.  If he wants to come back to the NBA, he'll probably be successful with his new team as well. 

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #152 on: January 10, 2017, 05:44:28 PM »

Offline oldtype

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1677
  • Tommy Points: 143
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.


Great words from a great man

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #153 on: January 10, 2017, 05:47:17 PM »

Offline saltlover

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12490
  • Tommy Points: 2619
that trade didn't get him fired at all, it was his failure to bring enough "for show" veterans in the offseason that got him fired.  He seemed to be so focused on the future that he forgot about what the present looked like and the appearance he was giving.

About the "for show" veterans.  Here I'm assuming you mean basically any veterans (but if not let me know).  There was a super interesting post on Reddit yesterday about what certain veterans bring to the table (specifically Mike Miller), I'll just post the whole thing here:

Quote
Mike Miller pretty much sucks. He's been putting up bad numbers, even for a bench player, for like 5 of the last 7 seasons. He can't do almost anything but shoot and there are plenty of young prospects out there who can shoot decently and at least have some upside. So here's why Mike Miller is still in the NBA as told by Dunc'd On's Nate Duncan on a recent episode of the podcast:

Speaking of those two guys [Malik Beasley, Hernangomaez] actually, and we'll close on this: people have wondered why a guy like Mike Miller is still in the league, he basically hasn't played all season. And I gotta little window into that very early on; I got to the game [Nuggets @ Warriors on January 2nd] early, about 5 o'clock, for the 7:30 game. And there was a 3 on 3 game - Miller, Beasley, Hernangomez, Alonzo Gee, and then a couple of the Nuggets assistant coaches, I think Steven Graham was one of em... [he's a] former NBA player... and then another guy I didn't recognize. So they're playing 3 on 3 hard; they played for like 45 minutes, I caught the last 20 minutes of it. They had been playing full court for a time, then they had to switch to half court when some of the Warriors players came out to start shooting. Jauncho [Hernangomez] and Beasley were exhausted... and Mike Miller is sill running around, still in great shape, draining 3s for game point in this 3 on 3 game... ya know talking it up all the time, like, Gee is posting up on Beasley, he's got a size advantage, and he [Mike Miller] is telling Beasley "he's going right shoulder, he's going right shoulder." Just yelling, talking, teaching these guys about the game. Being a great vet. Then afterwards these guys are completely exhausted and Mike Miller's like "hey you guys wanna run some sprints with me?" [Nate chuckles] And makes these guys run sprints with him after they're already just like totally out of gas. And, ya know, they weren't gonna play and that's how you keep those guys in shape, keep their skills sharp, teach those guys on the end of the bench to work. And that's why Mike Miller is still around.

Jauncho had played a total of 8:17 in the previous 8 games before that Warriors game. Malik Beasley hadn't played a single minute in about a month. Neither guy ended up playing against the Warriors.

We hear all the time about "veteran presence" and "being a good locker room guy" but it can be hard to imagine what the tangible effects are when you keep an old ass role model on the roster. This is an example of what you ideally get out of the Mike Miller and James Jones types.

Now I don't know how much this really moves the needle,but I am a believer in the importance of a veteran presence, so I think it definitely helps to have a good locker room vet or two on the roster when rebuilding.  This is something I think Philly could have used a little more of during Hinkie's reign.

I completely agree.  Gerald Wallace is an example -- he was not a good player when he was here, but unlike Keith Bogans, who was told to go home if he wanted to pout, Gerald stayed around and helped teach some of the kids how to be a professional.  When Wallace got sent to Hinkie for Jason Thompson, Hinkie simply cut him because he wanted a roster spot for another UDFA.  There are only so much coaches can do -- you need some players who can demonstrate what it means to go 100% in practice.  Kevin Ollie had a big influence on Durant early on in his career, as another example.

I'm not saying Hinkie completely ignored such players (he kept Luc Mbah a Moute around, for instance), but he didn't have the right balance.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #154 on: January 10, 2017, 05:52:36 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21238
  • Tommy Points: 2016
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.
In a few short years that team has acquired multiple franchise-level prospects and a mountain of additional assets.   Embiid alone probably has more trade value than DeMarcus Cousins at this point and some fans here would give up Jaylen, Smart, both Brooklyn 1sts and one of Avery or Crowder for Cousins.   Considering where that team started in 2013 and where it sits right now, I think it would be rather hard to end up with a better outcome than the future available to that Philly team.   

Still remains to be seen what they do in the next phase, but good god it's fairly remarkable how amazing they are set up right now.  Hinkie deserves some credit for that.  They also just have been insanely lucky in the lotto.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #155 on: January 10, 2017, 05:57:12 PM »

Offline oldtype

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1677
  • Tommy Points: 143
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.
In a few short years that team has acquired multiple franchise-level prospects and a mountain of additional assets.   Embiid alone probably has more trade value than DeMarcus Cousins at this point and some fans here would give up Jaylen, Smart, both Brooklyn 1sts and one of Avery or Crowder for Cousins.   Considering where that team started in 2013 and where it sits right now, I think it would be rather hard to end up with a better outcome than the future available to Philly team.   

Still remains to be seen what they do in the next phase, but good god it's fairly remarkable how amazing they are set up right now.  Hinkie deserves some credit for that.  They also just have been insanely lucky in the lotto.

What was he good at?

The fact that he has Embiid was more a product of grand strategy than actual GM skills. When you draft 3-3-1 over three years, it would be malpractice if you didn't end up with at least one franchise-level prospect.


Great words from a great man

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #156 on: January 10, 2017, 05:58:25 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21238
  • Tommy Points: 2016
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.
In a few short years that team has acquired multiple franchise-level prospects and a mountain of additional assets.   Embiid alone probably has more trade value than DeMarcus Cousins at this point and some fans here would give up Jaylen, Smart, both Brooklyn 1sts and one of Avery or Crowder for Cousins.   Considering where that team started in 2013 and where it sits right now, I think it would be rather hard to end up with a better outcome than the future available to Philly team.   

Still remains to be seen what they do in the next phase, but good god it's fairly remarkable how amazing they are set up right now.  Hinkie deserves some credit for that.  They also just have been insanely lucky in the lotto.

What was he good at?
Acquiring Superstar prospects and amassing assets from basically nothing.

You can say he whiffed on Porzingis in the same way AInge whiffed on Giannis.  That happens.  Drafts are unpredictable.  That was the entire point of the multi-year strategy.   As someone else asked earlier in this thread, name a trade Hinkie ever lost.   For what he set out to do, he did a really fine job at it.  And after reading that article, I came away thinking this is a guy who I'd gladly have run my team if we didn't already have the best GM alive currently running it.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #157 on: January 10, 2017, 06:03:20 PM »

Offline oldtype

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1677
  • Tommy Points: 143
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.
In a few short years that team has acquired multiple franchise-level prospects and a mountain of additional assets.   Embiid alone probably has more trade value than DeMarcus Cousins at this point and some fans here would give up Jaylen, Smart, both Brooklyn 1sts and one of Avery or Crowder for Cousins.   Considering where that team started in 2013 and where it sits right now, I think it would be rather hard to end up with a better outcome than the future available to Philly team.   

Still remains to be seen what they do in the next phase, but good god it's fairly remarkable how amazing they are set up right now.  Hinkie deserves some credit for that.  They also just have been insanely lucky in the lotto.

What was he good at?
Acquiring Superstar prospects and amassing assets from basically nothing.

Three top three picks is not nothing.


Great words from a great man

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #158 on: January 10, 2017, 06:18:26 PM »

Offline The One

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2017
  • Tommy Points: 203
Interesting debate...

I wonder what they'll get for Jahlil and/or Nerlens.

That could settle the debate, perhaps.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #159 on: January 10, 2017, 06:29:44 PM »

Offline Granath

  • NCE
  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2154
  • Tommy Points: 567
Acquiring Superstar prospects and amassing assets from basically nothing.

You can say he whiffed on Porzingis in the same way AInge whiffed on Giannis.  That happens.  Drafts are unpredictable.  That was the entire point of the multi-year strategy.   As someone else asked earlier in this thread, name a trade Hinkie ever lost.   For what he set out to do, he did a really fine job at it. And after reading that article, I came away thinking this is a guy who I'd gladly have run my team if we didn't already have the best GM alive currently running it.

I guess he set out to lose and that he did a fine job of.

Teams are evaluated by their wins and losses. That's the game. Hinkie was 47-195. That's his legacy. He will not - and does not deserve to - get credit for any future improvement by the 76ers. It doesn't take a genius to build a team by tanking year after year until they luck into a superstar. Any moron can do that and that was his entire strategy.

As for building a team out of "nothing", there was serious damage done to the team. Fans didn't attend. Merchandise wasn't purchased. Multiple seasons of futility went by. These are real costs to the business side of it and in that he also failed.

Praising him as some sort of genius is just idiotic. He took an approach that was glaringly obvious to anyone, didn't get things turned around and ultimately got fired for it. He failed. End of story.
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #160 on: January 10, 2017, 07:14:17 PM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11688
  • Tommy Points: 1469
I'm not that impressed with the job Hinkie's done.  I took over that same Sixers team in 2013, and I believe I've done better.

(See my signature below)
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #161 on: January 10, 2017, 07:18:04 PM »

Offline Smitty77

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3063
  • Tommy Points: 269
I just want to know WHEN the Timberwolves and the Sixers are going to start WINNING games with all their collective young talent?????

Currently the T-Wolves have the 25th record and the Sixers have the 28th!!!!

BTW. the Sixers have a blog and here it is for those interested:

http://www.libertyballers.com/

I think some of you might be more comfortable there:-))))

Smitty77
TP.

I'm sure I probably talk about the 76ers as much as anyone, but, like it or not they are pretty intertwined with us right now because

1) They are directly competing with Brooklyn for one of the worst records in the league and we really want them to have a better record than Brooklyn
2) We could definitely really use Noel and definitely want to avoid Okafor. Both have, at some point, been linked to the Celtics over the last few years so their play and role in the center cluster that exists on the 76ers is of particular interest to the Celtics
3) They are a division rival and we play them 4 times a year including just a few days ago
4) They have as much cap space and assets in the league so any time trade rumors and talk go out they are mentioned as a possible landing spot or third party facilitator
5) Embiid is probably the rookie having the biggest impact since either Blake Griffin or Lebron and has a chance of being an all star in like 27 minutes a game. He is someone a lot of people want to discuss.

Most "ROOKIES" do NOT get to observe for two years and then start playing with minute restrictions and NO back to backs!!  He is NOT a rookie!!!!!  I tire of people calling him a rook!!

Smitty77

P.S.  I sort of buy some of your points, but not all of them!!  Are you from Philly?  Do you have relative living in Philly?  There is something there.  Tell us.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #162 on: January 10, 2017, 08:03:00 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15739
  • Tommy Points: 1386
You kinda saw the Hinkie firing coming. I feel it was pretty unfair to Hinkie but had to be expected. i hope it was enough to make other GMs think twice about extended tanking projects.
Technically he quit.  He could have stayed on, but it was clear his role had been limited.  Pretty enlightening article about Hinkie came out recently:  http://www.si.com/nba/2016/11/30/sam-hinkie-after-the-process-philadelphia-76ers

I went from thinking he was just some dude who executed ownership's plan to tank... to thinking he's actually a pretty intelligent guy who will very likely have options to return to the NBA when his non-compete ends... though it doesn't sound like he's made up his mind on if he wants to return to the NBA or pursue something else.  He's definitely a peculiar guy, though.   Interesting read.
Pretty boring puff piece and like the 3rd time you have posted it...

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #163 on: January 10, 2017, 08:08:54 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15739
  • Tommy Points: 1386
I just want to know WHEN the Timberwolves and the Sixers are going to start WINNING games with all their collective young talent?????

Currently the T-Wolves have the 25th record and the Sixers have the 28th!!!!

BTW. the Sixers have a blog and here it is for those interested:

http://www.libertyballers.com/

I think some of you might be more comfortable there:-))))

Smitty77
TP.

I'm sure I probably talk about the 76ers as much as anyone, but, like it or not they are pretty intertwined with us right now because

1) They are directly competing with Brooklyn for one of the worst records in the league and we really want them to have a better record than Brooklyn
2) We could definitely really use Noel and definitely want to avoid Okafor. Both have, at some point, been linked to the Celtics over the last few years so their play and role in the center cluster that exists on the 76ers is of particular interest to the Celtics
3) They are a division rival and we play them 4 times a year including just a few days ago
4) They have as much cap space and assets in the league so any time trade rumors and talk go out they are mentioned as a possible landing spot or third party facilitator
5) Embiid is probably the rookie having the biggest impact since either Blake Griffin or Lebron and has a chance of being an all star in like 27 minutes a game. He is someone a lot of people want to discuss.

Most "ROOKIES" do NOT get to observe for two years and then start playing with minute restrictions and NO back to backs!!  He is NOT a rookie!!!!!  I tire of people calling him a rook!!

Smitty77

P.S.  I sort of buy some of your points, but not all of them!!  Are you from Philly?  Do you have relative living in Philly?  There is something there.  Tell us.

Nah I am from Rhode Island and Live in Oakland. I have a few friends from college that live in Philly, but they are not really even 76ers fans. I think the reason these threads take off is not really because of the reasons I mentioned, which are valid, but because there are a few really prolific posters that feel obligated to talk about how great Hinkie/Embiid/Simmons etc are. In something I constantly reference on this board a real low point was a discussion where one poster adamantly pumped up Philly's role players from a few years ago. Guys like Henry Sims, Tony Wroten, Hollis Thomspon, Fuken Aldimar. All of the guys are out of the league. I honestly think I have a pretty balanced view on the 76ers in the grand scheme of things.

I like Simmons
I like Covington
I like Noel
I like Embiid

I hate Okafor
I'm pretty meh on Saric as a more than a bench guy
I think Hinkie made a number of mistakes, but is neither a hero or an idiot.

Somehow I end up be coming off as anti-philly with those viewpoints because a few overly positive vocal supporters get upset I don't love everything single thing Philly and try to force me to believe Okafor is some sort of star despite being one of the worst players in the NBA.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #164 on: January 10, 2017, 08:41:40 PM »

Offline Eja117

  • NCE
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19274
  • Tommy Points: 1254
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.
In a few short years that team has acquired multiple franchise-level prospects and a mountain of additional assets.   Embiid alone probably has more trade value than DeMarcus Cousins at this point and some fans here would give up Jaylen, Smart, both Brooklyn 1sts and one of Avery or Crowder for Cousins.   Considering where that team started in 2013 and where it sits right now, I think it would be rather hard to end up with a better outcome than the future available to that Philly team.   

Still remains to be seen what they do in the next phase, but good god it's fairly remarkable how amazing they are set up right now.  Hinkie deserves some credit for that.  They also just have been insanely lucky in the lotto.
I can't get past Embiid and Simmons and both of them have injury issues. If we are going to count Noel, Jahil, or Saric as franchise level prospects then the Celts have like 7. If those are franchise level prospects then every team in the league has multiple franchise level prospects