MJ: "6 titles harder than player streaks"

[celticsclay]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins.

And yet still secondary to what they want for stats. Difference between guys like Harden and Westbrook and guys like LeBron or MJ is MJ and LeBron's first priority is winning and the stats, whatever they are, what they are isn't important, is just what you get from playing winning basketball.

With Harden and Westbrook, their first priority appears to get the stats and hope the end result, which is of secondary importance, is positive. Recently, Harden's and Westbrook's statpadding have become obvious. It has led to success but their selfish ways haven't exactly led their teams to titles.

Jordan led the league in scoring in all 6 title seasons. Seems strange to criticize Harden for scoring a lot and claiming he isn't like Jordan when he scores just like Jordan (and you know actually assists more)

I am sorry, when did I criticize Harden for scoring a lot? Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. I criticize Harden for putting more focus on scoring 30 than trying to win. His recent sad attempt to score 11 points late in the game when his team was losing big time just so he could reach 30 points shows you where Harden's head is.

I honestly don't remember Jordan ever doing this kind of stuff either. If you watch the clips of westbrook snatching rebounds away from adams or hunting for an assist to complete the triple double over the last few years (there is ton of this stuff online) it makes it a lot less of an accomplishment. I actually like Harden, but that 11 point thing you mention to keep the streak alive was shameful and i really cant imagine jordan (or bird for that matter) doing the same).

[gouki88]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins.

And yet still secondary to what they want for stats. Difference between guys like Harden and Westbrook and guys like LeBron or MJ is MJ and LeBron's first priority is winning and the stats, whatever they are, what they are isn't important, is just what you get from playing winning basketball.

With Harden and Westbrook, their first priority appears to get the stats and hope the end result, which is of secondary importance, is positive. Recently, Harden's and Westbrook's statpadding have become obvious. It has led to success but their selfish ways haven't exactly led their teams to titles.

Jordan led the league in scoring in all 6 title seasons. Seems strange to criticize Harden for scoring a lot and claiming he isn't like Jordan when he scores just like Jordan (and you know actually assists more)

You pick the strangest hills to die on man.

He's arguing with a point nick didn't even make.

[Moranis]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins.

And yet still secondary to what they want for stats. Difference between guys like Harden and Westbrook and guys like LeBron or MJ is MJ and LeBron's first priority is winning and the stats, whatever they are, what they are isn't important, is just what you get from playing winning basketball.

With Harden and Westbrook, their first priority appears to get the stats and hope the end result, which is of secondary importance, is positive. Recently, Harden's and Westbrook's statpadding have become obvious. It has led to success but their selfish ways haven't exactly led their teams to titles.

Jordan led the league in scoring in all 6 title seasons. Seems strange to criticize Harden for scoring a lot and claiming he isn't like Jordan when he scores just like Jordan (and you know actually assists more)

I am sorry, when did I criticize Harden for scoring a lot? Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. I criticize Harden for putting more focus on scoring 30 than trying to win. His recent sad attempt to score 11 points late in the game when his team was losing big time just so he could reach 30 points shows you where Harden's head is.

I had a long post and somehow lost it, but the basic gist was both Harden's and Westbrook's team win at a much greater percentage during their streaks (and with Westbrook overall when he has a triple double - the Thunder are 17-6 when he has a triple double and 20-13 when he doesn't).  I just don't buy the argument that they are stat chasing and not trying to win, when their teams are actually winning more as a result of their feats.  That argument just doesn't pass the smell test given the actual team results.  And for the record, Jordan scored 49 points and played 43 minutes in a playoff game the Bulls lost by 19 points.  Was he trying to help the Bulls win or was he chasing 50 points in that game?  Even in the 63 point game against the Celtics (which was a double OT game), Jordan shot 40% of the Bulls attempts in the game.  Is that stat chasing or trying to help his team win?  Sometimes great players just have to take over games.  It doesn't mean they don't care about winning.

[nickagneta]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins.

And yet still secondary to what they want for stats. Difference between guys like Harden and Westbrook and guys like LeBron or MJ is MJ and LeBron's first priority is winning and the stats, whatever they are, what they are isn't important, is just what you get from playing winning basketball.

With Harden and Westbrook, their first priority appears to get the stats and hope the end result, which is of secondary importance, is positive. Recently, Harden's and Westbrook's statpadding have become obvious. It has led to success but their selfish ways haven't exactly led their teams to titles.

Jordan led the league in scoring in all 6 title seasons. Seems strange to criticize Harden for scoring a lot and claiming he isn't like Jordan when he scores just like Jordan (and you know actually assists more)

I am sorry, when did I criticize Harden for scoring a lot? Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. I criticize Harden for putting more focus on scoring 30 than trying to win. His recent sad attempt to score 11 points late in the game when his team was losing big time just so he could reach 30 points shows you where Harden's head is.

I had a long post and somehow lost it, but the basic gist was both Harden's and Westbrook's team win at a much greater percentage during their streaks (and with Westbrook overall when he has a triple double - the Thunder are 17-6 when he has a triple double and 20-13 when he doesn't).  I just don't buy the argument that they are stat chasing and not trying to win, when their teams are actually winning more as a result of their feats.  That argument just doesn't pass the smell test given the actual team results.  And for the record, Jordan scored 49 points and played 43 minutes in a playoff game the Bulls lost by 19 points.  Was he trying to help the Bulls win or was he chasing 50 points in that game?  Even in the 63 point game against the Celtics (which was a double OT game), Jordan shot 40% of the Bulls attempts in the game.  Is that stat chasing or trying to help his team win?  Sometimes great players just have to take over games.  It doesn't mean they don't care about winning.

So now, to win an argument, you feel it necessary to throw shade on one of the greatest playoff performances ever? Are you really comparing MJ's 63 point performance, 22-41, all 2 pointers. 19-21 from the line, with 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 blocks, 2 steals in double OT equal to Harden making sure he was in a game late so he could score 11 points in less than 90 seconds and make sure he scored 30 points to keep a streak alive as being similar...equal?

This is one of the best games in NBA history and you want to compare it as being similar to Harden trying to pad his stats the other night or Westbrook forcing offense or not defending simply so he can get double digits in rebounds or points?

I refuse to explain the difference between the two. If you know the difference, Moranis, then at least say so especially for using such a terrible example. If you don't know the difference, then we really don't have a reason to talk any more.

BTW, MJ hung that playoff game epic on the Celtics at 22. And he did it 3 days after hanging 49 on the Celtics in the playoffs.

Trying to somehow compare MJ's 63 point effort in a losing effort in a double overtime playoff game to being a stat hanging job in a losing effort like Harden had while chasing his 30 points the other night or Westbrook's needs to pad his stats while he is getting blown out, is ludacris.

[celticsclay]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins.

And yet still secondary to what they want for stats. Difference between guys like Harden and Westbrook and guys like LeBron or MJ is MJ and LeBron's first priority is winning and the stats, whatever they are, what they are isn't important, is just what you get from playing winning basketball.

With Harden and Westbrook, their first priority appears to get the stats and hope the end result, which is of secondary importance, is positive. Recently, Harden's and Westbrook's statpadding have become obvious. It has led to success but their selfish ways haven't exactly led their teams to titles.

Jordan led the league in scoring in all 6 title seasons. Seems strange to criticize Harden for scoring a lot and claiming he isn't like Jordan when he scores just like Jordan (and you know actually assists more)

I am sorry, when did I criticize Harden for scoring a lot? Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. I criticize Harden for putting more focus on scoring 30 than trying to win. His recent sad attempt to score 11 points late in the game when his team was losing big time just so he could reach 30 points shows you where Harden's head is.

I had a long post and somehow lost it, but the basic gist was both Harden's and Westbrook's team win at a much greater percentage during their streaks (and with Westbrook overall when he has a triple double - the Thunder are 17-6 when he has a triple double and 20-13 when he doesn't).  I just don't buy the argument that they are stat chasing and not trying to win, when their teams are actually winning more as a result of their feats.  That argument just doesn't pass the smell test given the actual team results.  And for the record, Jordan scored 49 points and played 43 minutes in a playoff game the Bulls lost by 19 points.  Was he trying to help the Bulls win or was he chasing 50 points in that game?  Even in the 63 point game against the Celtics (which was a double OT game), Jordan shot 40% of the Bulls attempts in the game.  Is that stat chasing or trying to help his team win?  Sometimes great players just have to take over games.  It doesn't mean they don't care about winning.

So now, to win an argument, you feel it necessary to throw shade on one of the greatest playoff performances ever? Are you really comparing MJ's 63 point performance, 22-41, all 2 pointers. 19-21 from the line, with 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 blocks, 2 steals in double OT equal to Harden making sure he was in a game late so he could score 11 points in less than 90 seconds and make sure he scored 30 points to keep a streak alive as being similar...equal?

This is one of the best games in NBA history and you want to compare it as being similar to Harden trying to pad his stats the other night or Westbrook forcing offense or not defending simply so he can get double digits in rebounds or points?

I refuse to explain the difference between the two. If you know the difference, Moranis, then at least say so especially for using such a terrible example. If you don't know the difference, then we really don't have a reason to talk any more.

BTW, MJ hung that playoff game epic on the Celtics at 22. And he did it 3 days after hanging 49 on the Celtics in the playoffs.

Trying to somehow compare MJ's 63 point effort in a losing effort in a double overtime playoff game to being a stat hanging job in a losing effort like Harden had while chasing his 30 points the other night or Westbrook's needs to pad his stats while he is getting blown out, is ludacris.

5 tommy points. Very well said. People today know about Jordan’s performance. Only fantasy basketball players know about hardens 11 points in 3 minutes of garbage time. Shaking my head

[SparzWizard]

Can't be that hard if you had Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman as your teammates coached by Phil Jackson lol.

[tazzmaniac]

I agree with Jordan from an NBA perspective and generally across sports.  The one individual player streak that I can think of that is really impressive is DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak.   

[Moranis]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins.

And yet still secondary to what they want for stats. Difference between guys like Harden and Westbrook and guys like LeBron or MJ is MJ and LeBron's first priority is winning and the stats, whatever they are, what they are isn't important, is just what you get from playing winning basketball.

With Harden and Westbrook, their first priority appears to get the stats and hope the end result, which is of secondary importance, is positive. Recently, Harden's and Westbrook's statpadding have become obvious. It has led to success but their selfish ways haven't exactly led their teams to titles.

Jordan led the league in scoring in all 6 title seasons. Seems strange to criticize Harden for scoring a lot and claiming he isn't like Jordan when he scores just like Jordan (and you know actually assists more)

I am sorry, when did I criticize Harden for scoring a lot? Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. I criticize Harden for putting more focus on scoring 30 than trying to win. His recent sad attempt to score 11 points late in the game when his team was losing big time just so he could reach 30 points shows you where Harden's head is.

I had a long post and somehow lost it, but the basic gist was both Harden's and Westbrook's team win at a much greater percentage during their streaks (and with Westbrook overall when he has a triple double - the Thunder are 17-6 when he has a triple double and 20-13 when he doesn't).  I just don't buy the argument that they are stat chasing and not trying to win, when their teams are actually winning more as a result of their feats.  That argument just doesn't pass the smell test given the actual team results.  And for the record, Jordan scored 49 points and played 43 minutes in a playoff game the Bulls lost by 19 points.  Was he trying to help the Bulls win or was he chasing 50 points in that game?  Even in the 63 point game against the Celtics (which was a double OT game), Jordan shot 40% of the Bulls attempts in the game.  Is that stat chasing or trying to help his team win?  Sometimes great players just have to take over games.  It doesn't mean they don't care about winning.

So now, to win an argument, you feel it necessary to throw shade on one of the greatest playoff performances ever? Are you really comparing MJ's 63 point performance, 22-41, all 2 pointers. 19-21 from the line, with 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 blocks, 2 steals in double OT equal to Harden making sure he was in a game late so he could score 11 points in less than 90 seconds and make sure he scored 30 points to keep a streak alive as being similar...equal?

This is one of the best games in NBA history and you want to compare it as being similar to Harden trying to pad his stats the other night or Westbrook forcing offense or not defending simply so he can get double digits in rebounds or points?

I refuse to explain the difference between the two. If you know the difference, Moranis, then at least say so especially for using such a terrible example. If you don't know the difference, then we really don't have a reason to talk any more.

BTW, MJ hung that playoff game epic on the Celtics at 22. And he did it 3 days after hanging 49 on the Celtics in the playoffs.

Trying to somehow compare MJ's 63 point effort in a losing effort in a double overtime playoff game to being a stat hanging job in a losing effort like Harden had while chasing his 30 points the other night or Westbrook's needs to pad his stats while he is getting blown out, is ludacris.

I wasn't throwing shade at MJ at all.  I was saying that sometimes great players have to score a lot of points because that is in fact what gives their team the best chance at winning.  The Bulls greatest shot at winning games was when Jordan was a beast and took games over.  That is the same with Harden and the Rockets.  The Rockets need Harden to take over and score because that gives them the best chance at winning.  And for the record, I mentioned MJ's 49 point game, that was the 19 point loss when he played 43 minutes. 

I just vehemently object to your contention that both Harden and Westbrook are stat chasing and put winning 2nd.  It is a nonsense take in my opinion.  Especially with Westbrook.  That guy bleeds basketball and is probably the player in the entire league that will do anything to win more than any other player. 

[Kuberski33]

Jordan is right.  Also, the defense in Jordan's era was at its most savage.  In today's NBA Jordan would score 50 per night....

You know, I'm not sure it would be 50 a night because I'm not certain he'd have become a great 3 pt shooter - he's got huge hands - but, he'd have been able to get whatever he wanted attacking the basket - anytime he wanted.  And he might have made up for any 'deficiency' in 3 pt shooting with all the transition baskets he'd get - so 40+ a night - very realistic I think.

[Green-18]

Jordan is right.  Also, the defense in Jordan's era was at its most savage.  In today's NBA Jordan would score 50 per night....

You know, I'm not sure it would be 50 a night because I'm not certain he'd have become a great 3 pt shooter - he's got huge hands - but, he'd have been able to get whatever he wanted attacking the basket - anytime he wanted.  And he might have made up for any 'deficiency' in 3 pt shooting with all the transition baskets he'd get - so 40+ a night - very realistic I think.

It would be interesting to see how effective Jordan could be from 3 in today's game.  I'm guessing that he would have become a slightly above average 3 point shooter out of necessity.  The most telling stat is that his 3pt percentage improved during seasons where he took more attempts.

89-90 - .376 on 3 attempts per game
92-93 - .352 on 2.9 attempts per game
95-96 - .427 on 3.2 attempts per game
96-97 - .374 on 3.6 attempts per game

No reason to think the GOAT wouldn't have been an effective three point shooter on 5+ attempts per game in today's NBA.  He would have done whatever necessary to be the best player in the world.   

[Moranis]

Jordan is right.  Also, the defense in Jordan's era was at its most savage.  In today's NBA Jordan would score 50 per night....

You know, I'm not sure it would be 50 a night because I'm not certain he'd have become a great 3 pt shooter - he's got huge hands - but, he'd have been able to get whatever he wanted attacking the basket - anytime he wanted.  And he might have made up for any 'deficiency' in 3 pt shooting with all the transition baskets he'd get - so 40+ a night - very realistic I think.

It would be interesting to see how effective Jordan could be from 3 in today's game.  I'm guessing that he would have become a slightly above average 3 point shooter out of necessity.  The most telling stat is that his 3pt percentage improved during seasons where he took more attempts.

89-90 - .376 on 3 attempts per game
92-93 - .352 on 2.9 attempts per game
95-96 - .427 on 3.2 attempts per game
96-97 - .374 on 3.6 attempts per game

No reason to think the GOAT wouldn't have been an effective three point shooter on 5+ attempts per game in today's NBA.  He would have done whatever necessary to be the best player in the world.

Jordan would have been a good shooter had he come up in this generation.  probably not much different from Harden actually (probably not the volume, but a similar percentage).

[fairweatherfan]

Jordan is right.  Also, the defense in Jordan's era was at its most savage.  In today's NBA Jordan would score 50 per night....

You know, I'm not sure it would be 50 a night because I'm not certain he'd have become a great 3 pt shooter - he's got huge hands - but, he'd have been able to get whatever he wanted attacking the basket - anytime he wanted.  And he might have made up for any 'deficiency' in 3 pt shooting with all the transition baskets he'd get - so 40+ a night - very realistic I think.

It would be interesting to see how effective Jordan could be from 3 in today's game.  I'm guessing that he would have become a slightly above average 3 point shooter out of necessity.  The most telling stat is that his 3pt percentage improved during seasons where he took more attempts.

89-90 - .376 on 3 attempts per game
92-93 - .352 on 2.9 attempts per game
95-96 - .427 on 3.2 attempts per game
96-97 - .374 on 3.6 attempts per game

No reason to think the GOAT wouldn't have been an effective three point shooter on 5+ attempts per game in today's NBA.  He would have done whatever necessary to be the best player in the world.

The last two seasons were with the shortened 3 point line they used for awhile, so the comparison's not direct, but yeah, see nothing about Jordan's shooting that wouldn't suggest he could become a really good 3 pt shooter in today's game.

[bdm860]

Jordan is right.  Also, the defense in Jordan's era was at its most savage.  In today's NBA Jordan would score 50 per night....

You know, I'm not sure it would be 50 a night because I'm not certain he'd have become a great 3 pt shooter - he's got huge hands - but, he'd have been able to get whatever he wanted attacking the basket - anytime he wanted.  And he might have made up for any 'deficiency' in 3 pt shooting with all the transition baskets he'd get - so 40+ a night - very realistic I think.

It would be interesting to see how effective Jordan could be from 3 in today's game.  I'm guessing that he would have become a slightly above average 3 point shooter out of necessity.  The most telling stat is that his 3pt percentage improved during seasons where he took more attempts.

89-90 - .376 on 3 attempts per game
92-93 - .352 on 2.9 attempts per game
95-96 - .427 on 3.2 attempts per game
96-97 - .374 on 3.6 attempts per game

No reason to think the GOAT wouldn't have been an effective three point shooter on 5+ attempts per game in today's NBA.  He would have done whatever necessary to be the best player in the world.

Anybody have a theory on what was going late in his career when it came to shooting 3's?  '90 was a good year where it seemed like he recently started working on 3's, then starting in '93 it looked like Jordan had it down with 4 consecutive seasons above league average, then he fell off a cliff in '98.

Season   3P%
1984-85   0.173
1985-86   0.167
1986-87   0.182
1987-88   0.132
1988-89   0.276 - started improving shot here
1989-90   0.376
1990-91   0.312
1991-92   0.270
1992-93   0.352 - consistently above average for several seasons starting here
1994-95   0.500 - 17 game season
1995-96   0.427
1996-97   0.374
1997-98   0.238 - ? ? ?
2001-02   0.189
2002-03   0.291


I just feel like '98 was such a big drop for a healthy Jordan who was NBA MVP averaging 29ppg.  It's not like his role had changed or he was injured or in severe decline.

Credit to Jordan though, when he wasn't hitting them, he wasn't shooting them.  Just never really understood why he stopped being able to hit that shot.

[Green-18]

Jordan is right.  Also, the defense in Jordan's era was at its most savage.  In today's NBA Jordan would score 50 per night....

You know, I'm not sure it would be 50 a night because I'm not certain he'd have become a great 3 pt shooter - he's got huge hands - but, he'd have been able to get whatever he wanted attacking the basket - anytime he wanted.  And he might have made up for any 'deficiency' in 3 pt shooting with all the transition baskets he'd get - so 40+ a night - very realistic I think.

It would be interesting to see how effective Jordan could be from 3 in today's game.  I'm guessing that he would have become a slightly above average 3 point shooter out of necessity.  The most telling stat is that his 3pt percentage improved during seasons where he took more attempts.

89-90 - .376 on 3 attempts per game
92-93 - .352 on 2.9 attempts per game
95-96 - .427 on 3.2 attempts per game
96-97 - .374 on 3.6 attempts per game

No reason to think the GOAT wouldn't have been an effective three point shooter on 5+ attempts per game in today's NBA.  He would have done whatever necessary to be the best player in the world.

Anybody have a theory on what was going late in his career when it came to shooting 3's?  '90 was a good year where it seemed like he recently started working on 3's, then starting in '93 it looked like Jordan had it down with 4 consecutive seasons above league average, then he fell off a cliff in '98.

Season   3P%
1984-85   0.173
1985-86   0.167
1986-87   0.182
1987-88   0.132
1988-89   0.276 - started improving shot here
1989-90   0.376
1990-91   0.312
1991-92   0.270
1992-93   0.352 - consistently above average for several seasons starting here
1994-95   0.500 - 17 game season
1995-96   0.427
1996-97   0.374
1997-98   0.238 - ? ? ?
2001-02   0.189
2002-03   0.291


I just feel like '98 was such a big drop for a healthy Jordan who was NBA MVP averaging 29ppg.  It's not like his role had changed or he was injured or in severe decline.

Credit to Jordan though, when he wasn't hitting them, he wasn't shooting them.  Just never really understood why he stopped being able to hit that shot.

fairweatherfan mentioned that the NBA shortened the three point line for 3 seasons in the 90's.  They went back to the original line in 97-98.  Pippen also missed half the season, which likely hurt Jordan's overall efficiency.