MJ: "6 titles harder than player streaks"

[slamtheking]

Technically the ones that happen less frequently are actually harder.  So technically MJ is wrong.

Not true at all.  You think Westbrook being stat obsessed for 10 games is harder than 6 years of work?  Crazy.

Not to mention with the changing of the rules, the three point chucking etc all of these records are going to get smashed. How are they more important than the 6 titles? I would be incredibly impressed if harden, westbrook or lebron won 6 titles (never mind without losing a single finals).

more important is not the same thing as harder. 

Westbrook hasn't been the only player in league history to be stat obsessed, yet he is the only player to ever have a triple double in 10 straight games.  Again he is the only person in the history of the league to ever do something.  No one has ever done it before.  If you are the only one to ever do something that means it is harder than something that has happened many times before.

Jason Kidd with the single game record of 14 TOs agrees with you.  it took a lot out of him to achieve that!   

[Big333223]

Technically the ones that happen less frequently are actually harder.  So technically MJ is wrong.

Just because something happens infrequently doesn't mean it's hard. Obviously what Harden and Westbrook are doing is incredibly difficult but its rarity alone does not necessarily mean it's harder.

And I don't know what is "technical" about it.

[celticsclay]

Also the problem with comparing historical stats for their degree of hardness does not make any sense. Consider the number of NFL players that have passed for 5000 yards in a season. Looks like one in 1984 and then not again till 2008. So at that point you could say it was one of the hardest marks in sports and harder than championships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_quarterbacks_with_5,000_passing_yards_in_a_season

Now it is happening all the time. 9 times in the last 7 years (and i would be surprised if we don't see a few more next year). With basketball when you are literally changing the time on a shotclock to create more scoring opportunities and rebound opportunities you can't compare that to a game in the 90's with 20+ less points scored again. We are in the steroid error of basketball between that and the 3 point shot. I am not saying Westbroook is doing some impossible thing because his centers let him get the rebounds on free throws 2 times a game. Long story short, Jordan's 6 titles incredible and hardest most impressive achievement in basketball in last 30 years.

[GreenEnvy]

Technically the ones that happen less frequently are actually harder.  So technically MJ is wrong.

Not true at all.  You think Westbrook being stat obsessed for 10 games is harder than 6 years of work?  Crazy.

Not to mention with the changing of the rules, the three point chucking etc all of these records are going to get smashed. How are they more important than the 6 titles? I would be incredibly impressed if harden, westbrook or lebron won 6 titles (never mind without losing a single finals).

more important is not the same thing as harder. 

Westbrook hasn't been the only player in league history to be stat obsessed, yet he is the only player to ever have a triple double in 10 straight games.  Again he is the only person in the history of the league to ever do something.  No one has ever done it before.  If you are the only one to ever do something that means it is harder than something that has happened many times before.

And rarer isn’t the same as harder.

I guess you believe an immaculate inning in baseball is harder than a perfect game?

A great amount of luck can go into a single game or stretch of games record, but hoisting trophies annually is the epitome of hard work.

Stats can be accumulated in strange ways (see: Devin Booker), six championships cannot.

[nickagneta]

Technically the ones that happen less frequently are actually harder.  So technically MJ is wrong.

Not true at all.  You think Westbrook being stat obsessed for 10 games is harder than 6 years of work?  Crazy.

Not to mention with the changing of the rules, the three point chucking etc all of these records are going to get smashed. How are they more important than the 6 titles? I would be incredibly impressed if harden, westbrook or lebron won 6 titles (never mind without losing a single finals).

more important is not the same thing as harder. 

Westbrook hasn't been the only player in league history to be stat obsessed, yet he is the only player to ever have a triple double in 10 straight games.  Again he is the only person in the history of the league to ever do something.  No one has ever done it before.  If you are the only one to ever do something that means it is harder than something that has happened many times before.

The problem with this logic is it is based on that every great player has tried to get 10 straight double doubles or 30 straight games of 30 points and failed. Chamberlain once famously decided to teach everyone a lesson that he could indeed be a great passer. The next year, and this next part is very important, Chamberlain tried to rack up as many assists as possible and led the league in assists per game. Once a player sets his goal as achieving certain stats, it is easily attainable.

But almost all of the greatest players have winning a championship as their goal, regardless of the stats. In attempting to win an individual game, a prerequisite for athletes is not making sure that they score 30 or get a triple double.

The goal is to win no matter the stats. And those wins are extremely dependent on the performance of others. Then do it so many times, as the competition gets harder, to win one title. Then do that 5 more times, with some vastly different groups of players.

Winning one title is about the hardest thing to do in sports. Doing it 6 times is off the charts to do.

If KG was asked which was harder, winning four straight rebounding titles or winning a title or which was harder averaging 11.4+ rebounds and 5+ assists for 6 straight years or winning a title, my guess is Garnett would say winning a title was harder. Why? Because while his goal was to win a title, in failing to get that title, he just so happened to lead the league in rebounding 4 straight years and averaged 20+ points, 11.4+ rebounds, 5+ assists in six straight years. Both things rarely done if ever done before he did them.

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

[celticsclay]

Technically the ones that happen less frequently are actually harder.  So technically MJ is wrong.

Not true at all.  You think Westbrook being stat obsessed for 10 games is harder than 6 years of work?  Crazy.

Not to mention with the changing of the rules, the three point chucking etc all of these records are going to get smashed. How are they more important than the 6 titles? I would be incredibly impressed if harden, westbrook or lebron won 6 titles (never mind without losing a single finals).

more important is not the same thing as harder. 

Westbrook hasn't been the only player in league history to be stat obsessed, yet he is the only player to ever have a triple double in 10 straight games.  Again he is the only person in the history of the league to ever do something.  No one has ever done it before.  If you are the only one to ever do something that means it is harder than something that has happened many times before.

The problem with this logic is it is based on that every great player has tried to get 10 straight double doubles or 30 straight games of 30 points and failed. Chamberlain once famously decided to teach everyone a lesson that he could indeed be a great passer. The next year, and this next part is very important, Chamberlain tried to rack up as many assists as possible and led the league in assists per game. Once a player sets his goal as achieving certain stats, it is easily attainable.

But almost all of the greatest players have winning a championship as their goal, regardless of the stats. In attempting to win an individual game, a prerequisite for athletes is not making sure that they score 30 or get a triple double.

The goal is to win no matter the stats. And those wins are extremely dependent on the performance of others. Then do it so many times, as the competition gets harder, to win one title. Then do that 5 more times, with some vastly different groups of players.

Winning one title is about the hardest thing to do in sports. Doing it 6 times is off the charts to do.

If KG was asked which was harder, winning four straight rebounding titles or winning a title or which was harder averaging 11.4+ rebounders and 5+ rebounds for 6 straight years or winning a title, my guess is Garnett would say winning a title was harder. Why? Because while his goal was to win a title, in failing to get that title, he just so happened to lead the league in rebounding 4 straight years and averaged 20+ points, 11.4+ rebounds, 5+ assists in six straight years. Both things rarely done if ever done before he did them.

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

Very wells said nick. TP

[Donoghus]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

This.  It has appeared, at times, that Harden & Westbrook are consciously going out of their way to keep these streaks alive.  When they have the ball in their hands, they have much greater control over dictating whether or not these streaks can stay alive (even at the detriment of their teams).

Winning a championship is more difficult because there are more moving parts to it.  It's also much more of a team effort endeavor, IMO, and more prone to outside influences wrecking havoc on it. 

To me winning 6 championships is more difficult than certain stat chasing records. 

Of course, this whole conversation is pretty subjective and "harder" can certainly be interpreted in a variety of ways.

[Moranis]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins. 

[petbrick]

And in today's episode of hyper-competitive humourless bellend makes self-aggrandising statement...

[celticsclay]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins.

if these streaks led to some championships you could maybe try to refute the points of nick and donoghus. At this point this is just silly.

[nickagneta]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins.

And yet still secondary to what they want for stats. Difference between guys like Harden and Westbrook and guys like LeBron or MJ is MJ and LeBron's first priority is winning and the stats, whatever they are, what they are isn't important, is just what you get from playing winning basketball.

With Harden and Westbrook, their first priority appears to get the stats and hope the end result, which is of secondary importance, is positive. Recently, Harden's and Westbrook's statpadding have become obvious. It has led to success but their selfish ways haven't exactly led their teams to titles.

[celticsclay]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins.

And yet still secondary to what they want for stats. Difference between guys like Harden and Westbrook and guys like LeBron or MJ is MJ and LeBron's first priority is winning and the stats, whatever they are, what they are isn't important, is just what you get from playing winning basketball.

With Harden and Westbrook, their first priority appears to get the stats and hope the end result, which is of secondary importance, is positive. Recently, Harden's and Westbrook's statpadding have become obvious. It has led to success but their selfish ways haven't exactly led their teams to titles.

I generally agree with this, although I will add the last two years Lebron has been accused of stat hunting himself. It make sense this year especially with no real title hope.

[Moranis]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins.

And yet still secondary to what they want for stats. Difference between guys like Harden and Westbrook and guys like LeBron or MJ is MJ and LeBron's first priority is winning and the stats, whatever they are, what they are isn't important, is just what you get from playing winning basketball.

With Harden and Westbrook, their first priority appears to get the stats and hope the end result, which is of secondary importance, is positive. Recently, Harden's and Westbrook's statpadding have become obvious. It has led to success but their selfish ways haven't exactly led their teams to titles.

Jordan led the league in scoring in all 6 title seasons. Seems strange to criticize Harden for scoring a lot and claiming he isn't like Jordan when he scores just like Jordan (and you know actually assists more)

[celticsclay]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins.

And yet still secondary to what they want for stats. Difference between guys like Harden and Westbrook and guys like LeBron or MJ is MJ and LeBron's first priority is winning and the stats, whatever they are, what they are isn't important, is just what you get from playing winning basketball.

With Harden and Westbrook, their first priority appears to get the stats and hope the end result, which is of secondary importance, is positive. Recently, Harden's and Westbrook's statpadding have become obvious. It has led to success but their selfish ways haven't exactly led their teams to titles.

Jordan led the league in scoring in all 6 title seasons. Seems strange to criticize Harden for scoring a lot and claiming he isn't like Jordan when he scores just like Jordan (and you know actually assists more)

You pick the strangest hills to die on man.

[nickagneta]

The problem with Harden and Westbrook is their primary goal appears to be scoring 30 or getting a triple double. Then their secondary goal seems to be winning. If players like Bird, Magic, MJ, Lebron, Durant set their primary goals of attaining certain stats, my guess is all 5 could put up 30 games of 30 or triple doubles without end. Their goals were/are to win multiple championships not hang stats

The Rockets were 12-14 when Harden started his streak, they are 21-9 during the streak.  The Thunder are 9-1 in Westbrook's streak (28-18 before that).  So it appears that their streaks have actually led to wins.

And yet still secondary to what they want for stats. Difference between guys like Harden and Westbrook and guys like LeBron or MJ is MJ and LeBron's first priority is winning and the stats, whatever they are, what they are isn't important, is just what you get from playing winning basketball.

With Harden and Westbrook, their first priority appears to get the stats and hope the end result, which is of secondary importance, is positive. Recently, Harden's and Westbrook's statpadding have become obvious. It has led to success but their selfish ways haven't exactly led their teams to titles.

Jordan led the league in scoring in all 6 title seasons. Seems strange to criticize Harden for scoring a lot and claiming he isn't like Jordan when he scores just like Jordan (and you know actually assists more)

I am sorry, when did I criticize Harden for scoring a lot? Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. I criticize Harden for putting more focus on scoring 30 than trying to win. His recent sad attempt to score 11 points late in the game when his team was losing big time just so he could reach 30 points shows you where Harden's head is.