2019 Celtics - Best team ever?

[Moranis]

I am not claiming Irving is easily replaceable. He isn't because he is one of the best pure scorers in league history but he isn't on the level of Paul Pierce as an overall player either which is why I do have concerns about paying 35 million a year for the next 5 years which Boston basically has to offer.  It just strikes me a contract that could look very bad in a few seasons.

[JHTruth]

I am not claiming Irving is easily replaceable. He isn't because he is one of the best pure scorers in league history but he isn't on the level of Paul Pierce as an overall player either which is why I do have concerns about paying 35 million a year for the next 5 years which Boston basically has to offer.  It just strikes me a contract that could look very bad in a few seasons.

Yeah especially if his knee is shot. This didn't begin last year, he has injury issues going back to Duke, where he hardly played.

[greece66]

Moranis, you seem to be saying that Irving is both irreplaceable and not deserving a max. Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?

[JHTruth]

I don’t care about Irving’s rebounding but I have to agree with Moranis that he’s not good in any areas other than scoring and ballhandling.  His defense is bad and his passing is very dissapointing, not only because he’s primarily a scorer, but because he doesn’t see open guys or guys who are about to become open.

Yes he's a score first and second PG. Why ultimately he's pretty replaceable by Rosier or anyone that can score honestly..

I thought the playoffs pretty much proved that Irving is not easily replaceable and certainly not by Rozier. If this team was missing anything last year it was Kyrie's ability to find and create an open shot and hit it during the toughest of times and biggest of games.

Yeah, not sure how the takeaway can be that Kyrie is replaceable. We currently have nobody who is really that close in terms of their ability to score whenever they want. Whenever a set of ours broke down, our whole offence started to malfunction - whereas if we had Kyrie, we could just give it to him and let him go to work. That was his most valuable asset in Cleveland too, where he proved to not be easily replaced at all

Our offense was mediocre last year even with Kyrie. He's good but not that good lol

[gouki88]

I don’t care about Irving’s rebounding but I have to agree with Moranis that he’s not good in any areas other than scoring and ballhandling.  His defense is bad and his passing is very dissapointing, not only because he’s primarily a scorer, but because he doesn’t see open guys or guys who are about to become open.

Yes he's a score first and second PG. Why ultimately he's pretty replaceable by Rosier or anyone that can score honestly..

I thought the playoffs pretty much proved that Irving is not easily replaceable and certainly not by Rozier. If this team was missing anything last year it was Kyrie's ability to find and create an open shot and hit it during the toughest of times and biggest of games.

Yeah, not sure how the takeaway can be that Kyrie is replaceable. We currently have nobody who is really that close in terms of their ability to score whenever they want. Whenever a set of ours broke down, our whole offence started to malfunction - whereas if we had Kyrie, we could just give it to him and let him go to work. That was his most valuable asset in Cleveland too, where he proved to not be easily replaced at all

Our offense was mediocre last year even with Kyrie. He's good but not that good lol

Almost as if we were missing our second best offensive player, and arguably our best player overall

[JHTruth]

I don’t care about Irving’s rebounding but I have to agree with Moranis that he’s not good in any areas other than scoring and ballhandling.  His defense is bad and his passing is very dissapointing, not only because he’s primarily a scorer, but because he doesn’t see open guys or guys who are about to become open.

Yes he's a score first and second PG. Why ultimately he's pretty replaceable by Rosier or anyone that can score honestly..

I thought the playoffs pretty much proved that Irving is not easily replaceable and certainly not by Rozier. If this team was missing anything last year it was Kyrie's ability to find and create an open shot and hit it during the toughest of times and biggest of games.

Yeah, not sure how the takeaway can be that Kyrie is replaceable. We currently have nobody who is really that close in terms of their ability to score whenever they want. Whenever a set of ours broke down, our whole offence started to malfunction - whereas if we had Kyrie, we could just give it to him and let him go to work. That was his most valuable asset in Cleveland too, where he proved to not be easily replaced at all

Our offense was mediocre last year even with Kyrie. He's good but not that good lol

Almost as if we were missing our second best offensive player, and arguably our best player overall

And yet our offense improved in the playoffs. Lots of tough decisions coming for Danny.

Rozier had more WS/48 than any PG not nAmed Curry in last year's playoffs. Irving has a serious position battle ahead

[gouki88]

I don’t care about Irving’s rebounding but I have to agree with Moranis that he’s not good in any areas other than scoring and ballhandling.  His defense is bad and his passing is very dissapointing, not only because he’s primarily a scorer, but because he doesn’t see open guys or guys who are about to become open.

Yes he's a score first and second PG. Why ultimately he's pretty replaceable by Rosier or anyone that can score honestly..

I thought the playoffs pretty much proved that Irving is not easily replaceable and certainly not by Rozier. If this team was missing anything last year it was Kyrie's ability to find and create an open shot and hit it during the toughest of times and biggest of games.

Yeah, not sure how the takeaway can be that Kyrie is replaceable. We currently have nobody who is really that close in terms of their ability to score whenever they want. Whenever a set of ours broke down, our whole offence started to malfunction - whereas if we had Kyrie, we could just give it to him and let him go to work. That was his most valuable asset in Cleveland too, where he proved to not be easily replaced at all

Our offense was mediocre last year even with Kyrie. He's good but not that good lol

Almost as if we were missing our second best offensive player, and arguably our best player overall

And yet our offense improved in the playoffs. Lots of tough decisions coming for Danny..

It did, but when you get completely unexpected scoring from a rookie and a back-up PG, that happens.

I don't think there are any tough decisions to come, except about who to take with our lotto pick/s next year

[JHTruth]

I don’t care about Irving’s rebounding but I have to agree with Moranis that he’s not good in any areas other than scoring and ballhandling.  His defense is bad and his passing is very dissapointing, not only because he’s primarily a scorer, but because he doesn’t see open guys or guys who are about to become open.

Yes he's a score first and second PG. Why ultimately he's pretty replaceable by Rosier or anyone that can score honestly..

I thought the playoffs pretty much proved that Irving is not easily replaceable and certainly not by Rozier. If this team was missing anything last year it was Kyrie's ability to find and create an open shot and hit it during the toughest of times and biggest of games.

Yeah, not sure how the takeaway can be that Kyrie is replaceable. We currently have nobody who is really that close in terms of their ability to score whenever they want. Whenever a set of ours broke down, our whole offence started to malfunction - whereas if we had Kyrie, we could just give it to him and let him go to work. That was his most valuable asset in Cleveland too, where he proved to not be easily replaced at all

Our offense was mediocre last year even with Kyrie. He's good but not that good lol

Almost as if we were missing our second best offensive player, and arguably our best player overall

And yet our offense improved in the playoffs. Lots of tough decisions coming for Danny..

It did, but when you get completely unexpected scoring from a rookie and a back-up PG, that happens.

I don't think there are any tough decisions to come, except about who to take with our lotto pick/s next year

Rosier had more WS/48 than any PG not named Curry or Paul in last year's playoffs. Kyrie better get ready to prove he's legit this year..

[gouki88]

I don’t care about Irving’s rebounding but I have to agree with Moranis that he’s not good in any areas other than scoring and ballhandling.  His defense is bad and his passing is very dissapointing, not only because he’s primarily a scorer, but because he doesn’t see open guys or guys who are about to become open.

Yes he's a score first and second PG. Why ultimately he's pretty replaceable by Rosier or anyone that can score honestly..

I thought the playoffs pretty much proved that Irving is not easily replaceable and certainly not by Rozier. If this team was missing anything last year it was Kyrie's ability to find and create an open shot and hit it during the toughest of times and biggest of games.

Yeah, not sure how the takeaway can be that Kyrie is replaceable. We currently have nobody who is really that close in terms of their ability to score whenever they want. Whenever a set of ours broke down, our whole offence started to malfunction - whereas if we had Kyrie, we could just give it to him and let him go to work. That was his most valuable asset in Cleveland too, where he proved to not be easily replaced at all

Our offense was mediocre last year even with Kyrie. He's good but not that good lol

Almost as if we were missing our second best offensive player, and arguably our best player overall

And yet our offense improved in the playoffs. Lots of tough decisions coming for Danny..

It did, but when you get completely unexpected scoring from a rookie and a back-up PG, that happens.

I don't think there are any tough decisions to come, except about who to take with our lotto pick/s next year

Rosier had more WS/48 than any PG not named Curry or Paul in last year's playoffs. Kyrie better get ready to prove he's legit this year..

What do you mean prove he's legit? Are you saying he hasn't?

[Big333223]

I don’t care about Irving’s rebounding but I have to agree with Moranis that he’s not good in any areas other than scoring and ballhandling.  His defense is bad and his passing is very dissapointing, not only because he’s primarily a scorer, but because he doesn’t see open guys or guys who are about to become open.

Yes he's a score first and second PG. Why ultimately he's pretty replaceable by Rosier or anyone that can score honestly..

I thought the playoffs pretty much proved that Irving is not easily replaceable and certainly not by Rozier. If this team was missing anything last year it was Kyrie's ability to find and create an open shot and hit it during the toughest of times and biggest of games.

Yeah, not sure how the takeaway can be that Kyrie is replaceable. We currently have nobody who is really that close in terms of their ability to score whenever they want. Whenever a set of ours broke down, our whole offence started to malfunction - whereas if we had Kyrie, we could just give it to him and let him go to work. That was his most valuable asset in Cleveland too, where he proved to not be easily replaced at all

Our offense was mediocre last year even with Kyrie. He's good but not that good lol

Almost as if we were missing our second best offensive player, and arguably our best player overall

And yet our offense improved in the playoffs. Lots of tough decisions coming for Danny..

It did, but when you get completely unexpected scoring from a rookie and a back-up PG, that happens.

I don't think there are any tough decisions to come, except about who to take with our lotto pick/s next year

Rosier had more WS/48 than any PG not named Curry or Paul in last year's playoffs. Kyrie better get ready to prove he's legit this year..

What do you mean prove he's legit? Are you saying he hasn't?

lol

5 time all star, an all star game MVP, hit the biggest shot for his championship team in the finals but he still might not be legit?

[JHTruth]

I don’t care about Irving’s rebounding but I have to agree with Moranis that he’s not good in any areas other than scoring and ballhandling.  His defense is bad and his passing is very dissapointing, not only because he’s primarily a scorer, but because he doesn’t see open guys or guys who are about to become open.

Yes he's a score first and second PG. Why ultimately he's pretty replaceable by Rosier or anyone that can score honestly..

I thought the playoffs pretty much proved that Irving is not easily replaceable and certainly not by Rozier. If this team was missing anything last year it was Kyrie's ability to find and create an open shot and hit it during the toughest of times and biggest of games.

Yeah, not sure how the takeaway can be that Kyrie is replaceable. We currently have nobody who is really that close in terms of their ability to score whenever they want. Whenever a set of ours broke down, our whole offence started to malfunction - whereas if we had Kyrie, we could just give it to him and let him go to work. That was his most valuable asset in Cleveland too, where he proved to not be easily replaced at all

Our offense was mediocre last year even with Kyrie. He's good but not that good lol

Almost as if we were missing our second best offensive player, and arguably our best player overall

And yet our offense improved in the playoffs. Lots of tough decisions coming for Danny..

It did, but when you get completely unexpected scoring from a rookie and a back-up PG, that happens.

I don't think there are any tough decisions to come, except about who to take with our lotto pick/s next year

Rosier had more WS/48 than any PG not named Curry or Paul in last year's playoffs. Kyrie better get ready to prove he's legit this year..

What do you mean prove he's legit? Are you saying he hasn't?

lol

5 time all star, an all star game MVP, hit the biggest shot for his championship team in the finals but he still might not be legit?

Ancient history man. That was more than two years ago. I meant is he a legit star for us or all hype..

[greece66]

I don’t care about Irving’s rebounding but I have to agree with Moranis that he’s not good in any areas other than scoring and ballhandling.  His defense is bad and his passing is very dissapointing, not only because he’s primarily a scorer, but because he doesn’t see open guys or guys who are about to become open.

Yes he's a score first and second PG. Why ultimately he's pretty replaceable by Rosier or anyone that can score honestly..

I thought the playoffs pretty much proved that Irving is not easily replaceable and certainly not by Rozier. If this team was missing anything last year it was Kyrie's ability to find and create an open shot and hit it during the toughest of times and biggest of games.

Yeah, not sure how the takeaway can be that Kyrie is replaceable. We currently have nobody who is really that close in terms of their ability to score whenever they want. Whenever a set of ours broke down, our whole offence started to malfunction - whereas if we had Kyrie, we could just give it to him and let him go to work. That was his most valuable asset in Cleveland too, where he proved to not be easily replaced at all

Our offense was mediocre last year even with Kyrie. He's good but not that good lol

Almost as if we were missing our second best offensive player, and arguably our best player overall

And yet our offense improved in the playoffs. Lots of tough decisions coming for Danny..

It did, but when you get completely unexpected scoring from a rookie and a back-up PG, that happens.

I don't think there are any tough decisions to come, except about who to take with our lotto pick/s next year

Rosier had more WS/48 than any PG not named Curry or Paul in last year's playoffs. Kyrie better get ready to prove he's legit this year..

What do you mean prove he's legit? Are you saying he hasn't?

lol

5 time all star, an all star game MVP, hit the biggest shot for his championship team in the finals but he still might not be legit?

Ancient history man. That was more than two years ago. I meant is he a legit star for us or all hype..

Correct if I am wrong, but the recent injury of Irving is not affecting his value. Isn't he expected to fully recover?

I am aware that he has an injury history on the same knee but that was known when we traded for him.

[Big333223]

I don’t care about Irving’s rebounding but I have to agree with Moranis that he’s not good in any areas other than scoring and ballhandling.  His defense is bad and his passing is very dissapointing, not only because he’s primarily a scorer, but because he doesn’t see open guys or guys who are about to become open.

Yes he's a score first and second PG. Why ultimately he's pretty replaceable by Rosier or anyone that can score honestly..

I thought the playoffs pretty much proved that Irving is not easily replaceable and certainly not by Rozier. If this team was missing anything last year it was Kyrie's ability to find and create an open shot and hit it during the toughest of times and biggest of games.

Yeah, not sure how the takeaway can be that Kyrie is replaceable. We currently have nobody who is really that close in terms of their ability to score whenever they want. Whenever a set of ours broke down, our whole offence started to malfunction - whereas if we had Kyrie, we could just give it to him and let him go to work. That was his most valuable asset in Cleveland too, where he proved to not be easily replaced at all

Our offense was mediocre last year even with Kyrie. He's good but not that good lol

Almost as if we were missing our second best offensive player, and arguably our best player overall

And yet our offense improved in the playoffs. Lots of tough decisions coming for Danny..

It did, but when you get completely unexpected scoring from a rookie and a back-up PG, that happens.

I don't think there are any tough decisions to come, except about who to take with our lotto pick/s next year

Rosier had more WS/48 than any PG not named Curry or Paul in last year's playoffs. Kyrie better get ready to prove he's legit this year..

What do you mean prove he's legit? Are you saying he hasn't?

lol

5 time all star, an all star game MVP, hit the biggest shot for his championship team in the finals but he still might not be legit?

Ancient history man. That was more than two years ago. I meant is he a legit star for us or all hype..

So because it happened 2 years ago he's not the same player? That he started the all star game and led the Celtics in scoring this past season doesn't mean anything? I don't see why you're questioning his legitimacy as a star.

[Moranis]

Moranis, you seem to be saying that Irving is both irreplaceable and not deserving a max. Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?

Not easily replaceable is not irreplaceable.  That said, I believe you have to pay Irving a max in this NBA, but I absolutely do not believe he is a franchise player in the mold of James, Durant, Leonard, Davis, etc. or for that matter even on the same level as Harden, Westbrook, Paul, George, Butler, etc.  He is just a terrible defender and really doesn't do anything aside from score well.  I think you can make a reasonable argument that Hayward is a better player than Irving and would be more responsible for the wins of the team going forward.  I think this is often overlooked, but Boston without Irving was only like a 4 worse win pace then they were with him and that includes the unsustainable win streak at the beginning of the year.  Boston has to offer Irving the max in this NBA, but I could easily see that being a contract the team comes to regret both for production and what it costs the team elsewhere.

[greece66]

Moranis, you seem to be saying that Irving is both irreplaceable and not deserving a max. Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?

Not easily replaceable is not irreplaceable.  That said, I believe you have to pay Irving a max in this NBA, but I absolutely do not believe he is a franchise player in the mold of James, Durant, Leonard, Davis, etc. or for that matter even on the same level as Harden, Westbrook, Paul, George, Butler, etc.  He is just a terrible defender and really doesn't do anything aside from score well.  I think you can make a reasonable argument that Hayward is a better player than Irving and would be more responsible for the wins of the team going forward.  I think this is often overlooked, but Boston without Irving was only like a 4 worse win pace then they were with him and that includes the unsustainable win streak at the beginning of the year.  Boston has to offer Irving the max in this NBA, but I could easily see that being a contract the team comes to regret both for production and what it costs the team elsewhere.

i guess we agree after all