Raptors (0-1) at Celtics (0-1) Game #2 10/22/21

[Mahk E Mahk]

Folks are getting way too down after this one. It was a let-up game after a 2OT game against the Knicks where 4 players played huge minutes (45mins). It happens.

There's definitely an element of this (although it didn't seem to impact Timelord, miraculously). But I really want to see our coaching improve. Or at least the lineups we send out

Yeah, Udoka is off to a bad start. I am more nervous about him than I am about the players.

And considering that we hired him without even inquiring about Carlisle's availability.......

if we’re willing to be honest, it’s because rick doesn’t have enough melanin. when you allow non-basketball criteria to drive personnel searches, you get what you deserve. that said, i sincerely hope ime figures it out.

Eeeeesh...icky....

Correct me if I'm wrong but there were several canidates interviewed of different races.

Ime was also widely considered the best of the "unproven" coaches available.

“Eeeeesh...icky....”? lol, sorry if the truth offends your delicate sensibilities or your social justice agenda. it was a well known fact that the C’s were purposefully looking for a minority for the job. it was even discussed on this forum. if it helps your sophisticated social palate, the reverse would have been just as egregious.

no, all official candidates were black men: chauncey billups, darvin ham, charles lee, jamahl mosley and ime. granted, brad “interviewed” four assistants from his staff, but these were clearly professional courtesy interviews. chauncey, ime, and darvin were the only second interviews.

while there were rumors and speculation from the media surrounding kara lawson, becky hammon, sam cassell, lloyd pierce, jason kidd, juwan howard, and mike d’antoni, there wasn’t evidence or official word from the C’s front office regarding these candidates, as there was for the official candidates.

stating that “ime was also widely considered the best of the ‘unproven’ coaches available” supports my point. we have a young, leaderless, underperforming, often lazy team that clearly tuned out their previous coach. why would the C’s hire a first time, unproven coach for this mess of a team? guys like JT, JB, and marcus need a veteran coach with a strong track record who has the credibility to command the locker room and kick some arse.

No social agenda here. I'm not the one that brought up race. You insinuated that we had an inferior coaching hire due to not interviewing enuff white candidates.

It appears you are right tho, only black canidates from outside of the organization were given extensive interviews. If those with their fingers on the pulse of this team felt players would respond best to a young, black coach, i have no problem w that.

As to the actual coaching situation. It's 2 games, 1st time head coach. Its a bit early to be declaring him a bust or on the hot seat. He needs to balance out the rotation, probably our top 5 maybe shouldn't be our starting 5. Finishing 5, sure. But he needs to spread out the skill throughout the rotation for the 1st 3 qtrs.
Also, he needs to light a fire under our  stars and squash the mental lapses, barking at refs, hanging heads, etc. Holding players accountable was supposed to be a strength of his, lets see how it unfolds.

i didn’t bring up race, the C’s did. don’t start throwing accusations at me for simply reporting fact. the C’s admitted to reporters that hiring a black man was a top priority, and they followed through by only interviewing black men. ipso facto. as a i’ve stated previously, if anyone is uncomfortable with these facts, take it up with the c’s, not me.

please show me where i insinuated that ime is “an inferior coaching hire.” also, please show me where i stated ime is a bust. in fact, i’ve stated several times that i hope he figures it out and wins championships. i have no problem with ime or his skin color. i am rightfully concerned by his lack of experience and his awful start as hc. this may be difficult for folks who seem so bothered by this line of thinking to comprehend but, unlike the C’s (and allegedly the C’s players), i don’t care about the race of the C’s head coach. i do have a problem with the C’s coaching search criteria and bias.

to quote mlk, “i look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” the C’s coaching criteria, as “corrective” as it may seem emotionally, isn’t consistent with mlk’s dream.

[Ogaju]

Was he ever Popovich’s first assistant?

Was he first assistant on the USA teams?

Players seldom have anything bad to say about one of their’s. Not one Celtic teammate has a criticism of Kyrie.

He was a journeyman, who did not play at a high level. He was never a floor general.

What does it matter if Ime was Pops' 1st, 3rd or 12th assistant? Udoka coached for 7 years under the best in the business.

What does it matter if Ime was Team USA's 1st, 3rd or 12th assistant? He got the job because Pops thought he was excellent and gave his recommendation for Team USA to hire him.

Who cares if NBA players don't bad mouth other NBA players(a completely wrong premise proven by Embiid's comments on Simmons, Ray Allen's comments on his Celtics team mates, Lebron and Kevin Love's comments on each other, etc., etc.)? Udoka was hired by a non-NBA player.

Bill Russell...not a floor general
Tommy Heinsohn...not a floor general
Billy Cunningham...not a floor general
Jerry Sloan...not a floor general
Steve Kerr...not a floor general
Phil Jackson...not a floor general
Don Nelson...not a floor general
Pat Riley...not a floor general
Rudy Tomjanovich...not a floor general

Clearly you can be not only an amazing coach, but one of the best coaches ever, without being an NBA floor general.

It matters that he was not the 1st assistant because it means he did not rise to that level with Popovich. When you evaluate candidates for a much higher position it is reasonable to ask why he did not progress within his organization.

The USA job honestly is not something to write home about. The USA has the best players in the world x 100. And there is no evidence that Popovich said he was excellent. Besides, it matters whether Popovich thought he was excellent to be his 13th assistant versus being his 1st assistant versus being there just to relate to the players because he is a fun guy to be around. His role on the team is important.

Regarding his NBA bona fides, you decided to only address the ‘floor general’ argument. That point was to give Ime a chance to get over the first two points that he was a journeyman who never played at a high level. I will ask you a rhetorical question. Do you think Ime’s playing career is anywhere close to that of the coaches you listed?

[Mahk E Mahk]

Was he ever Popovich’s first assistant?

Was he first assistant on the USA teams?

Players seldom have anything bad to say about one of their’s. Not one Celtic teammate has a criticism of Kyrie.

He was a journeyman, who did not play at a high level. He was never a floor general.

What does it matter if Ime was Pops' 1st, 3rd or 12th assistant? Udoka coached for 7 years under the best in the business.

What does it matter if Ime was Team USA's 1st, 3rd or 12th assistant? He got the job because Pops thought he was excellent and gave his recommendation for Team USA to hire him.

Who cares if NBA players don't bad mouth other NBA players(a completely wrong premise proven by Embiid's comments on Simmons, Ray Allen's comments on his Celtics team mates, Lebron and Kevin Love's comments on each other, etc., etc.)? Udoka was hired by a non-NBA player.

Bill Russell...not a floor general
Tommy Heinsohn...not a floor general
Billy Cunningham...not a floor general
Jerry Sloan...not a floor general
Steve Kerr...not a floor general
Phil Jackson...not a floor general
Don Nelson...not a floor general
Pat Riley...not a floor general
Rudy Tomjanovich...not a floor general

Clearly you can be not only an amazing coach, but one of the best coaches ever, without being an NBA floor general.

It matters that he was not the 1st assistant because it means he did not rise to that level with Popovich. When you evaluate candidates for a much higher position it is reasonable to ask why he did not progress within his organization.

The USA job honestly is not something to write home about. The USA has the best players in the world x 100. And there is no evidence that Popovich said he was excellent. Besides, it matters whether Popovich thought he was excellent to be his 13th assistant versus being his 1st assistant versus being there just to relate to the players because he is a fun guy to be around. His role on the team is important.

Regarding his NBA bona fides, you decided to only address the ‘floor general’ argument. That point was to give Ime a chance to get over the first two points that he was a journeyman who never played at a high level. I will ask you a rhetorical question. Do you think Ime’s playing career is anywhere close to that of the coaches you listed?

i agree with the sentiment that in seven years as an assistant to pop, his career progression matters. if he didn’t progress up the ladder with pop, why? what did pop see or not see compared to others?

also, for the sake of argument, if ime was the tenth assistant, he’s probably not in pop’s inner circle where the real learning takes place. he’s witnessing WHAT’s taking place, how pop coaches tactically, and what takes place on the practice court and film room, but he’s not necessarily in the loop regarding WHY pop is doing what he’s doing. this seems simple but is incredibly important. it’s the difference between tactics and strategy. give me the assistant that’s been fully exposed to pop’s coaching approach, not the guy simply running drills or conducting skills training with players. yes, i’m speculating but it does support the argument that ime’s status as an assistant coach matters greatly.
 

[nickagneta]

i think you need to read the article again. nowhere does it state that “it seem that hiring a black coach was secondary because the first priorities were: being a highly regarded NBA assistant, relating well with players and someone that played in the NBA.” you inferred that to fit your narrative. the quote you copied listed the C’s preferences.  the quote i copied stated hiring a black candidate was a priority for the C’s. it’s preference vs. priority.

i didn’t bring race into this, the C’s did. if that bothers you, take it up with the C’s.

oh, and as for the implication in your last statement, it’s a telltale sign of someone making an emotional argument when they’re out of truth, and it’s only intended to malign someone’s character and cause harm. it’s a shameful and weak tactic used to squelch dialogue and shutdown opposing points of view. this is a worthwhile discussion and, as adults, we should be able to engage in it without name calling. be better.

Your fake intellectual smugness and general dishonesty is incredible.

You were the first to bring up the color of Udoka's skin:

if we’re willing to be honest, it’s because rick doesn’t have enough melanin.

Be honest in your replies.

It was you who first suggested someone's opinion was based on their supposed social justice agenda:

“Eeeeesh...icky....”? lol, sorry if the truth offends your delicate sensibilities or your social justice agenda.

So clearly you are the one that showed:

a telltale sign of someone making an emotional argument when they’re out of truth, and it’s only intended to malign someone’s character and cause harm

So be better with pushing your anti-social justice warrior agenda, or whatever else it may be called.

Also, your reading comprehension needs improvement. The entire quote from your article you referred to:

The Celtics have already requested an interview with Billups too, as ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski first reported. Billups was one of five assistant coaches Boston contacted for its position, along with Darvin Ham and Charles Lee (Bucks), Ime Udoka (Nets) and Jamahl Mosley (Mavericks). All are highly regarded young coaches who are said to relate well with players—something that appears to be a preference for Boston, as well as having playing experience in the NBA. Of that list, only Mosley and Lee did not reach the league as players.

Team personnel contacted by B/R maintain that hiring a Black candidate is another top priority for the Celtics. If Boston can also land someone who has previous head coaching experience, that person would further meet the Celtics' criteria, sources said.

Notice the word "another". So after discussing their preferences the author said "another" priority, which means their preferences were both preferences AND priorities.

Next time read better.

[mobilija]

Folks are getting way too down after this one. It was a let-up game after a 2OT game against the Knicks where 4 players played huge minutes (45mins). It happens.

There's definitely an element of this (although it didn't seem to impact Timelord, miraculously). But I really want to see our coaching improve. Or at least the lineups we send out

Yeah, Udoka is off to a bad start. I am more nervous about him than I am about the players.

And considering that we hired him without even inquiring about Carlisle's availability.......

if we’re willing to be honest, it’s because rick doesn’t have enough melanin. when you allow non-basketball criteria to drive personnel searches, you get what you deserve. that said, i sincerely hope ime figures it out.

Eeeeesh...icky....

Correct me if I'm wrong but there were several canidates interviewed of different races.

Ime was also widely considered the best of the "unproven" coaches available.

“Eeeeesh...icky....”? lol, sorry if the truth offends your delicate sensibilities or your social justice agenda. it was a well known fact that the C’s were purposefully looking for a minority for the job. it was even discussed on this forum. if it helps your sophisticated social palate, the reverse would have been just as egregious.

no, all official candidates were black men: chauncey billups, darvin ham, charles lee, jamahl mosley and ime. granted, brad “interviewed” four assistants from his staff, but these were clearly professional courtesy interviews. chauncey, ime, and darvin were the only second interviews.

while there were rumors and speculation from the media surrounding kara lawson, becky hammon, sam cassell, lloyd pierce, jason kidd, juwan howard, and mike d’antoni, there wasn’t evidence or official word from the C’s front office regarding these candidates, as there was for the official candidates.

stating that “ime was also widely considered the best of the ‘unproven’ coaches available” supports my point. we have a young, leaderless, underperforming, often lazy team that clearly tuned out their previous coach. why would the C’s hire a first time, unproven coach for this mess of a team? guys like JT, JB, and marcus need a veteran coach with a strong track record who has the credibility to command the locker room and kick some arse.

No social agenda here. I'm not the one that brought up race. You insinuated that we had an inferior coaching hire due to not interviewing enuff white candidates.

It appears you are right tho, only black canidates from outside of the organization were given extensive interviews. If those with their fingers on the pulse of this team felt players would respond best to a young, black coach, i have no problem w that.

As to the actual coaching situation. It's 2 games, 1st time head coach. Its a bit early to be declaring him a bust or on the hot seat. He needs to balance out the rotation, probably our top 5 maybe shouldn't be our starting 5. Finishing 5, sure. But he needs to spread out the skill throughout the rotation for the 1st 3 qtrs.
Also, he needs to light a fire under our  stars and squash the mental lapses, barking at refs, hanging heads, etc. Holding players accountable was supposed to be a strength of his, lets see how it unfolds.

i didn’t bring up race, the C’s did. don’t start throwing accusations at me for simply reporting fact. the C’s admitted to reporters that hiring a black man was a top priority, and they followed through by only interviewing black men. ipso facto. as a i’ve stated previously, if anyone is uncomfortable with these facts, take it up with the c’s, not me.

please show me where i insinuated that ime is “an inferior coaching hire.” also, please show me where i stated ime is a bust. in fact, i’ve stated several times that i hope he figures it out and wins championships. i have no problem with ime or his skin color. i am rightfully concerned by his lack of experience and his awful start as hc. this may be difficult for folks who seem so bothered by this line of thinking to comprehend but, unlike the C’s (and allegedly the C’s players), i don’t care about the race of the C’s head coach. i do have a problem with the C’s coaching search criteria and bias.

to quote mlk, “i look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” the C’s coaching criteria, as “corrective” as it may seem emotionally, isn’t consistent with mlk’s dream.

You brought up race in the thread  . Yes its being talked about bc of the C’s hire. But you brought it up here, and thru out some kind of social agenda gauntlet, when it was u who started it here in this thread. You say u dont care about the race of the coach but at the first sign of the team and the coach being in trouble, it was you that needed to remind us all about race being involved in the hire, why is that?

Insinuation comes from the quote I responded to, u dont like the hiring process and say "get what they deserve". This hints that u believe they hired wrong guy.  Feel free to explain yourself differently. My apoligies for implying u think he is a bust. I was commenting on the over reaction in general on the topic and steering the conversation back to actual coaching.

As to the hiring practice. In general, ur right. Id like us (the nation) to get to point where we can hire based solely on merit. But were not there, the pendulum is swinging. It had ALOT  of momentum in the white direction, so I expect it to swing a good ways in the black direction before we can achieve a balance. As to this hiring instance, one of our star players was very vocal about having a black coach. I think it was in managements best interest to cater to this in order to get the most out of the players. For instance, if our best player was a white supremacist would u hire a black coach? So maybe its the player u should be aiming ur ire at and not management.

[Ogaju]

I do not understand the racial direction of this thread. Real equality will not be achieved until we can criticize the hiring decision and performance of a coach regardless of race. I am sure Ime would want to be judged on his merit.  The jury is still out on this hire, actually the jury doesn’t have the case yet it is still listening and watching the evidence, but don’t for one reason think the jurors are not forming opinions.

[Mahk E Mahk]

i will address nick and mob’s previous responses in this one post and then i’m bowing out of this conversation; you may have the last word.

i mentioned the fact that the C’s brought race into the coaching search because this is a celtic’s forum and we discuss all things celtics. if the C’s don’t do it, we’re not discussing it.

as far as my reading comprehension, try reviewing your quote again. based on the article, we don’t know what the other priorities were, as the other characteristics you’ve discussed were only labeled as preferences, while race was listed as a priority, along with other unidentified priorities. moreover, this is a silly semantic argument that doesn’t inform the point at hand. the fact remains, the C’s decided up front that hiring a black coach was a top priority, regardless of who was available, and true to their priority, they only interviewed black men. you may feel the need to defend this practice but i don’t.

furthermore, this has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion of ime and his qualifications; you’re purposefully conflating the two in an attempt to malign my character and undermine my greater point. it’s a nuanced point best examined by thoughtful analysis, not emotional virtue signaling.

i did state the C’s get what they deserve. it’s a simple statement that stands on its own merit. if the C’s purposefully limited the scope of their coaching search based on something other than merit, they get what they deserve. what if becky hammon was the absolute best candidate for the job and would have led the C’s to multiple banners? we’ll never know because, while she may have perfectly fulfilled the C’s preferences and other priorities, she could never meet one of the top priorities. especially shameful, this top priority is something that becky could never learn, master, or acquire, disqualifying her before she even had a chance to interview.

it is completely possible for me to dislike the C’s hiring approach, while giving ime a chance to be successful. the process may have been very flawed and biased but that doesn’t automatically mean ime doesn’t have the chance to be a great coach. this isn’t a difficult concept to comprehend; unfortunately it is one easy to misconstrue.

i absolutely don’t know if the C’s hired the wrong guy and never stated such (btw, i appreciate the apology for wrongly attributing the bust statement to me). again, i sincerely hope ime becomes a championship coach for the C’s. thanks, again for taking the high road in this aspect of our discussion.

as far as the concept of swinging the pendulum the other direction for awhile, we can agree to disagree on this point. i’d prefer to swing it back to center. get the C’s the absolute best coach available, regardless of race, color, creed, etc. i won’t make assumptions or inferences about your opinion being nefarious or villainous and i’d appreciate the same courtesy.

bottom line, if you are the C’s and have the desire to hire a black coach, then just quietly do it. by purposefully announcing it, they’re not only going out of their way to make an unnecessary social statement, they’re also undermining ime. keep your social agenda quiet and announce ime as the absolute best candidate for the job, period. hire solely on merit and tell the world ime earned it on merit alone. telling everyone in advance “our priority is to hire a black coach” certainly adds an unnecessary limiting component, and it’s a disservice to ime.

like i stated at the top, i’m bowing out of this discussion and getting back to basketball. feel free to have the last word. cheers.

[Ogaju]

Your second to last paragraph is exactly on point. Just to cite a recent example in another field, Biden and the Democrats totally undermined Kamala Harris when he announced his VP would be a woman, and the Democratic leaders then narrowed it to black woman, even Klobuchar  removed her name for a ‘black woman’. This stigmatizes Kamala Harris as the best black woman for the job instead of the best person for the job. If you are really serious about promoting an egalitarian society stop marginalizing minority hires by putting them in boxes labeled ‘no one else need apply’.

[Hoopvortex]

Your second to last paragraph is exactly on point. Just to cite a recent example in another field, Biden and the Democrats totally undermined Kamala Harris when he announced his VP would be a woman, and the Democratic leaders then narrowed it to black woman, even Klobuchar  removed her name for a ‘black woman’. This stigmatizes Kamala Harris as the best black woman for the job instead of the best person for the job. If you are really serious about promoting an egalitarian society stop marginalizing minority hires by putting them in boxes labeled ‘no one else need apply’.

I object to calling Kamala Harris 'black'. She is half-Indian. Likewise, Barack Obama, who is half-white, is often identified, erroneously, as 'black'. They are 'mixed-race' - though in the end 'race' is not even easy to define; it's actually more of a cultural category than a genetic one.

There is a fundamental evolution in our society taking place. It is widespread and far-reaching; and we can expect backlash and conflict for years to come over it. It will be a test of the strength of our society, but it will also be the source for our future creativity and innovation. The clash and fusion of differing cultures in our society (including the African one) is arguably the source of our greatest achievements; but the blurring of racial lines that is now taking place is part of a more profound transformation.

As for Ime Udoka? That guy will be a great head coach. It'll take weeks or months, but you'll hear a very different conversation on this site come April.

[Ogaju]

Your second to last paragraph is exactly on point. Just to cite a recent example in another field, Biden and the Democrats totally undermined Kamala Harris when he announced his VP would be a woman, and the Democratic leaders then narrowed it to black woman, even Klobuchar  removed her name for a ‘black woman’. This stigmatizes Kamala Harris as the best black woman for the job instead of the best person for the job. If you are really serious about promoting an egalitarian society stop marginalizing minority hires by putting them in boxes labeled ‘no one else need apply’.

I object to calling Kamala Harris 'black'. She is half-Indian. Likewise, Barack Obama, who is half-white, is often identified, erroneously, as 'black'. They are 'mixed-race' - though in the end 'race' is not even easy to define; it's actually more of a cultural category than a genetic one.

There is a fundamental evolution in our society taking place. It is widespread and far-reaching; and we can expect backlash and conflict for years to come over it. It will be a test of the strength of our society, but it will also be the source for our future creativity and innovation. The clash and fusion of differing cultures in our society (including the African one) is arguably the source of our greatest achievements; but the blurring of racial lines that is now taking place is part of a more profound transformation.

As for Ime Udoka? That guy will be a great head coach. It'll take weeks or months, but you'll hear a very different conversation on this site come April.

I agree with the first two paragraphs of your post. My point remains though.

Go Celtics!!!

[Celtics4ever]

He is learning on the job, I 've been critical of him, but I realize this is his first rodeo.    I just want to see some improvement from him as a coach.   Learn from your mistakes, make changes when stuff isn't working.