All-Time Scoring Record About to Fall

[Moranis]

To bring this back on track, here are the 7 men to be the all time leader (starting at the end of the 1st season) in the sport's history

1946 - 1952 - Joe Fulks
1952 (11/8) - 1957 - George Mikan
1957 - Ed Macauley
1957 - 1964 - Dolph Schayes
1964 (Feb ?) - 1966 - Bob Pettit
1966 (2/14) - 1984 - Wilt Chamberlain
1984 (4/5) - present - Kareem Abdul Jabbar

[Vermont Green]

Jordan though had the titles, MVP's, and the adulation that Malone never got (well he got 2 MVP's, but never adulation or titles).

Sorry, still don't understand where you are going with this.  If Malone hadn't gotten injured, he probably would have kept playing, and the record would likely have been an important part of his calculus to do that.  Something to add to his legacy.  Why not?  I think most players would do that.  Keep playing until they can't.

And as to adulation, of course Jordan got more adulation than Malone.  Both are all time great players but Jordan was better (arguably the best ever).  Malone played in Utah and never won a title but got his share of adulation I would say.  MVPs, Olympic teams,  Hall of Fame.  He was the prototype PF for the era.

I am not disagreeing with you, I don't think, I am just not getting your point.  What does Karl Malone have to do with LeBron and the record?  Are you saying that Malone doesn't get the credit he deserves?  That the record would have been more important to Malone than Jordan or LeBron?

[bdm860]

Do you think if Malone didn't get hurt for the Lakers in 04, he would have played longer and potentially passed Kareem?  That last year he only managed 42 games and scored just 554 points (13.2 ppg).  If he had played more like 75 games and added another 436 (at the same 13.2 ppg average) that would have given him 37364 and put him 1023 behind Kareem.  In other words within striking distance if he had 1 more healthy season in him.  Is the fact that he got hurt and only played half the season, the reason he walked away after that disaster of a season in 04?  I tend to think if he was healthy he would have played longer (he wouldn't have felt physically as bad and he would have been much closer to Kareem), he might not have gotten to Kareem anyway, but I do think it would have been a feather he would have wanted especially since he never managed the title.

Not sure what you are getting at.  Durability and longevity are critical elements for a player in trying to break records like all time scoring.  I think Karl Malone absolutely would have kept playing if he felt he could.  What player wouldn't.  And certainly if you are within reach of important records.

LeBron is still one of the best players in the game though.  He does not have to justify in any way that he is choosing to continue playing.  If he was scoring 13 pts a game like Malone did in his last season, maybe he wouldn't keep playing.  Or it would be a stronger argument that he is stat/record chasing.

My question had nothing to do with Lebron.  Malone was 40 and had been hurt.  I suspect the injury played a big factor in him retiring, but maybe not, maybe at 40 and after 19 years he would have been done anyway.  I mean Jordan walked away twice when he was still the best player in the world and the 2nd time he had Wilt within striking distance and Kareem not that far away (he passed Wilt in Washington - Malone had passed him by the time he played for the Wizards and was 2nd and still going).  Jordan though had the titles, MVP's, and the adulation that Malone never got (well he got 2 MVP's, but never adulation or titles).

It's interesting to think about, because there's a few things going on.

Does a healthy Malone help the Lakers win in '04 and/or keep that team together?   And if they win, is Malone happy with his ring and retire?  Or do they go for the repeat while Malone goes for the record? 

A healthy Malone had 4 points in 45 minutes in a 12 point loss in Game 1 of the Finals.  Then got injured in Q1 of Game 2 with the same injury that caused him to miss 40 games during the regular season (still played 40 mins in Game 2, only scored 9, but won), then was limited to ~20 mins in Game 3-4, didn't play in Game 5 (all losses).

I don't think a healthy Malone swings the series.  There's an argument that a healthy Malone in the regular season helps improve the team's chemistry, but I don't really buy that either.  Of course Lakers' fans will say an injured Malone is why they lost.

Even if the Lakers win, I still think Kobe/Shaq break up (because Shaq wanted a contract LA wasn't going to give him win or lose.)

So now do the Lakers still hold onto Malone after Shaq/Kobe split?  Malone signed a 2 year contract.  And it could be enticing for the team to hold onto Malone since he would likely be breaking the record.  But Kobe/Malone didn't get along, and the Lakers cleared house, would they trade Malone too?  Malone would definitely want to be traded since Lakers were rebuilding, he probably gets shipped to another contender (Dallas or San Antonio maybe?) or back to Utah (the one rebuilding team I could see him going to)?  So where does Malone end up to break the record?  I don't think it's LA.  Does he want to deal with all that?  Even if healthy, I think he's done.

[Donoghus]

Do you think if Malone didn't get hurt for the Lakers in 04, he would have played longer and potentially passed Kareem?  That last year he only managed 42 games and scored just 554 points (13.2 ppg).  If he had played more like 75 games and added another 436 (at the same 13.2 ppg average) that would have given him 37364 and put him 1023 behind Kareem.  In other words within striking distance if he had 1 more healthy season in him.  Is the fact that he got hurt and only played half the season, the reason he walked away after that disaster of a season in 04?  I tend to think if he was healthy he would have played longer (he wouldn't have felt physically as bad and he would have been much closer to Kareem), he might not have gotten to Kareem anyway, but I do think it would have been a feather he would have wanted especially since he never managed the title.

Not sure what you are getting at.  Durability and longevity are critical elements for a player in trying to break records like all time scoring.  I think Karl Malone absolutely would have kept playing if he felt he could.  What player wouldn't.  And certainly if you are within reach of important records.

LeBron is still one of the best players in the game though.  He does not have to justify in any way that he is choosing to continue playing.  If he was scoring 13 pts a game like Malone did in his last season, maybe he wouldn't keep playing.  Or it would be a stronger argument that he is stat/record chasing.

My question had nothing to do with Lebron.  Malone was 40 and had been hurt.  I suspect the injury played a big factor in him retiring, but maybe not, maybe at 40 and after 19 years he would have been done anyway.  I mean Jordan walked away twice when he was still the best player in the world and the 2nd time he had Wilt within striking distance and Kareem not that far away (he passed Wilt in Washington - Malone had passed him by the time he played for the Wizards and was 2nd and still going).  Jordan though had the titles, MVP's, and the adulation that Malone never got (well he got 2 MVP's, but never adulation or titles).

Jordan also never knocked up a 13 year old.

I'm fairly certain most people wouldn't know that and it really had very little to do with why Malone never got adulation.

Well, he was a prick well before that revelation came to light.  That might have something to do with it.

[Moranis]

Do you think if Malone didn't get hurt for the Lakers in 04, he would have played longer and potentially passed Kareem?  That last year he only managed 42 games and scored just 554 points (13.2 ppg).  If he had played more like 75 games and added another 436 (at the same 13.2 ppg average) that would have given him 37364 and put him 1023 behind Kareem.  In other words within striking distance if he had 1 more healthy season in him.  Is the fact that he got hurt and only played half the season, the reason he walked away after that disaster of a season in 04?  I tend to think if he was healthy he would have played longer (he wouldn't have felt physically as bad and he would have been much closer to Kareem), he might not have gotten to Kareem anyway, but I do think it would have been a feather he would have wanted especially since he never managed the title.

Not sure what you are getting at.  Durability and longevity are critical elements for a player in trying to break records like all time scoring.  I think Karl Malone absolutely would have kept playing if he felt he could.  What player wouldn't.  And certainly if you are within reach of important records.

LeBron is still one of the best players in the game though.  He does not have to justify in any way that he is choosing to continue playing.  If he was scoring 13 pts a game like Malone did in his last season, maybe he wouldn't keep playing.  Or it would be a stronger argument that he is stat/record chasing.

My question had nothing to do with Lebron.  Malone was 40 and had been hurt.  I suspect the injury played a big factor in him retiring, but maybe not, maybe at 40 and after 19 years he would have been done anyway.  I mean Jordan walked away twice when he was still the best player in the world and the 2nd time he had Wilt within striking distance and Kareem not that far away (he passed Wilt in Washington - Malone had passed him by the time he played for the Wizards and was 2nd and still going).  Jordan though had the titles, MVP's, and the adulation that Malone never got (well he got 2 MVP's, but never adulation or titles).

It's interesting to think about, because there's a few things going on.

Does a healthy Malone help the Lakers win in '04 and/or keep that team together?   And if they win, is Malone happy with his ring and retire?  Or do they go for the repeat while Malone goes for the record? 

A healthy Malone had 4 points in 45 minutes in a 12 point loss in Game 1 of the Finals.  Then got injured in Q1 of Game 2 with the same injury that caused him to miss 40 games during the regular season (still played 40 mins in Game 2, only scored 9, but won), then was limited to ~20 mins in Game 3-4, didn't play in Game 5 (all losses).

I don't think a healthy Malone swings the series.  There's an argument that a healthy Malone in the regular season helps improve the team's chemistry, but I don't really buy that either.  Of course Lakers' fans will say an injured Malone is why they lost.

Even if the Lakers win, I still think Kobe/Shaq break up (because Shaq wanted a contract LA wasn't going to give him win or lose.)

So now do the Lakers still hold onto Malone after Shaq/Kobe split?  Malone signed a 2 year contract.  And it could be enticing for the team to hold onto Malone since he would likely be breaking the record.  But Kobe/Malone didn't get along, and the Lakers cleared house, would they trade Malone too?  Malone would definitely want to be traded since Lakers were rebuilding, he probably gets shipped to another contender (Dallas or San Antonio maybe?) or back to Utah (the one rebuilding team I could see him going to)?  So where does Malone end up to break the record?  I don't think it's LA.  Does he want to deal with all that?  Even if healthy, I think he's done.

That is sort of what I was getting at.  In the WCF, Malone averaged basically 12/9/5 (against KG and the Wolves), in the WCS he was 10/8/3 (against TD and the Spurs), and in the 1st round against the Rockets he was 18/10/3.  The Pistons were a tough matchup for him and Kobe was really bad without Malone getting big minutes in the last 3 games of that series. 

[celticsclay]

Do you think if Malone didn't get hurt for the Lakers in 04, he would have played longer and potentially passed Kareem?  That last year he only managed 42 games and scored just 554 points (13.2 ppg).  If he had played more like 75 games and added another 436 (at the same 13.2 ppg average) that would have given him 37364 and put him 1023 behind Kareem.  In other words within striking distance if he had 1 more healthy season in him.  Is the fact that he got hurt and only played half the season, the reason he walked away after that disaster of a season in 04?  I tend to think if he was healthy he would have played longer (he wouldn't have felt physically as bad and he would have been much closer to Kareem), he might not have gotten to Kareem anyway, but I do think it would have been a feather he would have wanted especially since he never managed the title.

Not sure what you are getting at.  Durability and longevity are critical elements for a player in trying to break records like all time scoring.  I think Karl Malone absolutely would have kept playing if he felt he could.  What player wouldn't.  And certainly if you are within reach of important records.

LeBron is still one of the best players in the game though.  He does not have to justify in any way that he is choosing to continue playing.  If he was scoring 13 pts a game like Malone did in his last season, maybe he wouldn't keep playing.  Or it would be a stronger argument that he is stat/record chasing.

My question had nothing to do with Lebron.  Malone was 40 and had been hurt.  I suspect the injury played a big factor in him retiring, but maybe not, maybe at 40 and after 19 years he would have been done anyway.  I mean Jordan walked away twice when he was still the best player in the world and the 2nd time he had Wilt within striking distance and Kareem not that far away (he passed Wilt in Washington - Malone had passed him by the time he played for the Wizards and was 2nd and still going).  Jordan though had the titles, MVP's, and the adulation that Malone never got (well he got 2 MVP's, but never adulation or titles).

It's interesting to think about, because there's a few things going on.

Does a healthy Malone help the Lakers win in '04 and/or keep that team together?   And if they win, is Malone happy with his ring and retire?  Or do they go for the repeat while Malone goes for the record? 

A healthy Malone had 4 points in 45 minutes in a 12 point loss in Game 1 of the Finals.  Then got injured in Q1 of Game 2 with the same injury that caused him to miss 40 games during the regular season (still played 40 mins in Game 2, only scored 9, but won), then was limited to ~20 mins in Game 3-4, didn't play in Game 5 (all losses).

I don't think a healthy Malone swings the series.  There's an argument that a healthy Malone in the regular season helps improve the team's chemistry, but I don't really buy that either.  Of course Lakers' fans will say an injured Malone is why they lost.

Even if the Lakers win, I still think Kobe/Shaq break up (because Shaq wanted a contract LA wasn't going to give him win or lose.)

So now do the Lakers still hold onto Malone after Shaq/Kobe split?  Malone signed a 2 year contract.  And it could be enticing for the team to hold onto Malone since he would likely be breaking the record.  But Kobe/Malone didn't get along, and the Lakers cleared house, would they trade Malone too?  Malone would definitely want to be traded since Lakers were rebuilding, he probably gets shipped to another contender (Dallas or San Antonio maybe?) or back to Utah (the one rebuilding team I could see him going to)?  So where does Malone end up to break the record?  I don't think it's LA.  Does he want to deal with all that?  Even if healthy, I think he's done.

That is sort of what I was getting at.  In the WCF, Malone averaged basically 12/9/5 (against KG and the Wolves), in the WCS he was 10/8/3 (against TD and the Spurs), and in the 1st round against the Rockets he was 18/10/3.  The Pistons were a tough matchup for him and Kobe was really bad without Malone getting big minutes in the last 3 games of that series.

Malone was close a comeback with the spurs the following year and I believe even met with pops but ultimately decided not to.

[celticsclay]

Do you think if Malone didn't get hurt for the Lakers in 04, he would have played longer and potentially passed Kareem?  That last year he only managed 42 games and scored just 554 points (13.2 ppg).  If he had played more like 75 games and added another 436 (at the same 13.2 ppg average) that would have given him 37364 and put him 1023 behind Kareem.  In other words within striking distance if he had 1 more healthy season in him.  Is the fact that he got hurt and only played half the season, the reason he walked away after that disaster of a season in 04?  I tend to think if he was healthy he would have played longer (he wouldn't have felt physically as bad and he would have been much closer to Kareem), he might not have gotten to Kareem anyway, but I do think it would have been a feather he would have wanted especially since he never managed the title.

Not sure what you are getting at.  Durability and longevity are critical elements for a player in trying to break records like all time scoring.  I think Karl Malone absolutely would have kept playing if he felt he could.  What player wouldn't.  And certainly if you are within reach of important records.

LeBron is still one of the best players in the game though.  He does not have to justify in any way that he is choosing to continue playing.  If he was scoring 13 pts a game like Malone did in his last season, maybe he wouldn't keep playing.  Or it would be a stronger argument that he is stat/record chasing.

My question had nothing to do with Lebron.  Malone was 40 and had been hurt.  I suspect the injury played a big factor in him retiring, but maybe not, maybe at 40 and after 19 years he would have been done anyway.  I mean Jordan walked away twice when he was still the best player in the world and the 2nd time he had Wilt within striking distance and Kareem not that far away (he passed Wilt in Washington - Malone had passed him by the time he played for the Wizards and was 2nd and still going).  Jordan though had the titles, MVP's, and the adulation that Malone never got (well he got 2 MVP's, but never adulation or titles).

Jordan also never knocked up a 13 year old.

I'm fairly certain most people wouldn't know that and it really had very little to do with why Malone never got adulation.

It is true that it was kind of crazy how that was swept under the rug. But Malone definitely had a series of incidents. His comments to Kobe’s wife were very public and covered quite a bit. His personality did definitely have something to do with him not being beloved compared to more charismatic personalities like magic or even Barkley.

[Who]

The injury and the Lakers being a circus seemed the main reason for the retirement. It was a pretty serious injury. Plus I think dealing with Shaq and Kobe all year, plus Kobe's rape case, made life much more difficult for Malone than he had expected. Not comfortable with all that noise / non-basketball distractions compared to life in Utah with Jerry Sloan and John Stockton.

Malone was still playing very good basketball in that last season. He was still a top 10 PF in the league (or close to it, the PF position was really strong at the time). His defense, rebounding, passing, shooting were the glue that was holding that Lakers team together. It was his injury that really cost them in the Finals otherwise they would've put up a greater challenge to Detroit.

If LA hadn't of been such a mess, if the team hadn't of been broken up that summr with Shaq heading to Miami, plus that was a serious injury he suffered ... but even with the injury, he might have stayed on playing if the team had of been more stable. If he did not have to go elsewhere to start over. If that final year wasn't such a constant headache.

[Moranis]

The injury and the Lakers being a circus seemed the main reason for the retirement. It was a pretty serious injury. Plus I think dealing with Shaq and Kobe all year, plus Kobe's rape case, made life much more difficult for Malone than he had expected. Not comfortable with all that noise / non-basketball distractions compared to life in Utah with Jerry Sloan and John Stockton.

Malone was still playing very good basketball in that last season. He was still a top 10 PF in the league (or close to it, the PF position was really strong at the time). His defense, rebounding, passing, shooting were the glue that was holding that Lakers team together. It was his injury that really cost them in the Finals otherwise they would've put up a greater challenge to Detroit.

If LA hadn't of been such a mess, if the team hadn't of been broken up that summr with Shaq heading to Miami, plus that was a serious injury he suffered ... but even with the injury, he might have stayed on playing if the team had of been more stable. If he did not have to go elsewhere to start over. If that final year wasn't such a constant headache.

I mean they started the next year 24-19 before Rudy T had to step away for health reasons.  Add Malone to that team they may have been even better.  Not a contender, but a solid enough team that it wouldn't have been a rebuild. 

[Moranis]

46 points last night and now is 177 away.  The Clippers were also the last franchise in the league that Lebron had not scored 40 points against, so he has now scored 40 points against all 30 franchises.  He is the only player to do that against all 30 franchises.

He also had a career high of 9, 3 pointers, and has upped his scoring average to 30.2 ppg. 

The Lakers did however lose to the Clippers and are now 22-26 and in 13th in the conference (though just 6 games out of 3rd).  The 2-10 start really hurt them as they've been better of late. 

[Roy H.]

46 points last night and now is 177 away.  The Clippers were also the last franchise in the league that Lebron had not scored 40 points against, so he has now scored 40 points against all 30 franchises.  He is the only player to do that against all 30 franchises.

He also had a career high of 9, 3 pointers, and has upped his scoring average to 30.2 ppg. 

The Lakers did however lose to the Clippers and are now 22-26 and in 13th in the conference (though just 6 games out of 3rd).  The 2-10 start really hurt them as they've been better of late.

So, he'll break it either against OKC or the Bucks, most likely.  Does he purposefully not break it against the Thunder, to do it in a nationally televised game against Giannis?

[celticsclay]

Does it become kind of awkward if Lebron breaks this record in a game they are down like 20 like last night? That may be less likely if Davis is back and playing normal minutes. If bucks have their guys back tho they definitely could still blow them out at home.

[Moranis]

46 points last night and now is 177 away.  The Clippers were also the last franchise in the league that Lebron had not scored 40 points against, so he has now scored 40 points against all 30 franchises.  He is the only player to do that against all 30 franchises.

He also had a career high of 9, 3 pointers, and has upped his scoring average to 30.2 ppg. 

The Lakers did however lose to the Clippers and are now 22-26 and in 13th in the conference (though just 6 games out of 3rd).  The 2-10 start really hurt them as they've been better of late.

So, he'll break it either against OKC or the Bucks, most likely.  Does he purposefully not break it against the Thunder, to do it in a nationally televised game against Giannis?

well he is 6 games away now, so theoretically that would be at the end of the New Orleans if he doesn't take any games off.  I suspect he rests one of the back to back NY games though (probably the Nets as he always likes playing in the Garden), which does push him into that 2 game homestand window of the Thunder and Bucks.  Whether that comes against OKC or Milwaukee does depend on how close he is to the record.  I don't think he comes out of a game he starts only to save the record for another night, so if he is really close (like under 20) before the Thunder game starts he could in theory rest, but if he is over 20 away (but not insurmountable), I think he starts that game and he probably breaks the record in it (if he is in the 30 or less range).

[bdm860]

I wonder if LeBron has a preference.

The NBA said it's going to make sure it's a big deal, with "ceremonies during and after."

So do you want that to happen during a tough opponent like the Bucks, or do you want that to be during a much easier opponent like the Thunder?  If you're a player, do you want them to stop the game in the middle of the 2nd quarter for 15 minutes when you're down 10 trying to make a run?  Also would suck some of the energy out of a post game celebration if your team just lost.  But breaking the record might also give you and your team a momentum boost that helps you win.

I'm sure the NBA wants to milk it.  The NBA's ideal scenario is probably LeBron is like 30-40 away going into the Bucks game.  Something attainable but not guaranteed.  Get a big ratings boost against the Bucks, but have LeBron fall short, so then you get another bigger ratings boost on a Saturday non-cable nationally televised prime time game against the most popular team of the last decade.

vs Giannis, then vs Steph and Golden State.  That's gotta be the NBA's dream.

Will also be interesting if LeBron is like 2 points away with like 2 minutes to go in a blowout vs the Pelicans.  See if he goes for the record then or waits.  I can see it now, LeBron waits.  Ticket prices skyrocket for the game against the Thunder, only for LeBron to sit that one out, lol.

Outside of the back-to-back with the Nets/Knicks, super interested to see if LeBron sits any games to try to make the record happen on a certain night.

[celticsclay]

I wonder if LeBron has a preference.

The NBA said it's going to make sure it's a big deal, with "ceremonies during and after."

So do you want that to happen during a tough opponent like the Bucks, or do you want that to be during a much easier opponent like the Thunder?  If you're a player, do you want them to stop the game in the middle of the 2nd quarter for 15 minutes when you're down 10 trying to make a run?  Also would suck some of the energy out of a post game celebration if your team just lost.  But breaking the record might also give you and your team a momentum boost that helps you win.

I'm sure the NBA wants to milk it.  The NBA's ideal scenario is probably LeBron is like 30-40 away going into the Bucks game.  Something attainable but not guaranteed.  Get a big ratings boost against the Bucks, but have LeBron fall short, so then you get another bigger ratings boost on a Saturday non-cable nationally televised prime time game against the most popular team of the last decade.

vs Giannis, then vs Steph and Golden State.  That's gotta be the NBA's dream.

Will also be interesting if LeBron is like 2 points away with like 2 minutes to go in a blowout vs the Pelicans.  See if he goes for the record then or waits.  I can see it now, LeBron waits.  Ticket prices skyrocket for the game against the Thunder, only for LeBron to sit that one out, lol.

Outside of the back-to-back with the Nets/Knicks, super interested to see if LeBron sits any games to try to make the record happen on a certain night.

The thing about Lebron sitting is the lakers can’t really afford to have him miss games. They are currently outside the playin looking in and we are halfway through season.