Author Topic: NFL Off-season 2022  (Read 70585 times)

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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #540 on: August 04, 2022, 03:16:32 PM »

Online Moranis

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This just seems like a bad idea.

https://www.amtamassage.org/continuing-education/national-convention/

Michael Phelps is one of the keynote speakers.  At least they didn't pick a football player.
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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #541 on: August 04, 2022, 04:24:49 PM »

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This just seems like a bad idea.

https://www.amtamassage.org/continuing-education/national-convention/

Michael Phelps is one of the keynote speakers.  At least they didn't pick a football player.

What's bad about it?  The fact it's in Cleveland?  They announce these convention sites years in advance.  I'm sure the city & local hospitality industry will appreciate the revenue that will come in from this.


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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #542 on: August 04, 2022, 05:18:58 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Good.

Quote
Adam Schefter
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League has filed its appeal in Deshaun Watson suspension, per source.

Wow even though the sexual assaults were not “forceful”?

Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #543 on: August 04, 2022, 06:50:04 PM »

Online Moranis

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This just seems like a bad idea.

https://www.amtamassage.org/continuing-education/national-convention/

Michael Phelps is one of the keynote speakers.  At least they didn't pick a football player.

What's bad about it?  The fact it's in Cleveland?  They announce these convention sites years in advance.  I'm sure the city & local hospitality industry will appreciate the revenue that will come in from this.
yes I was making a joke about Watson.
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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #544 on: August 09, 2022, 09:09:33 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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NFL pushing for full year suspensions. Strongly support this. Think it was frankly pathetic to try and call sexual assault “non violent.” Get that judge back to patent law.

Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #545 on: August 10, 2022, 04:14:38 AM »

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Watson said he is innocent but yet he came into agreement & settle out of court with lot of his accusers..if u are innocent then why u settle out of court????? If I was innocent in something, I would prove it in a court of law and clear my name
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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #546 on: August 10, 2022, 05:55:08 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Watson said he is innocent but yet he came into agreement & settle out of court with lot of his accusers..if u are innocent then why u settle out of court????? If I was innocent in something, I would prove it in a court of law and clear my name

Deshaun Watson is, for sure, a trash human being. But there are many reasons why people settle out of court that have nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

In this case, it's probably less expense for him if he settles  - and it's faster, and he won't have been found guilty, which is just about as good as being found innocent as far as his continued ability to make money in the NFL.

To that point:
NFL pushing for full year suspensions. Strongly support this. Think it was frankly pathetic to try and call sexual assault “non violent.” Get that judge back to patent law.

I'm not sure I can 'strongly support' the NFL to do with anything related to this mess. And here's why:

Under the old system, the league office would leak the possible discipline, weigh the public response to the possible discipline, then adjust the discipline accordingly.

Under the new system, the league has a retired judge make the ruling, they weigh the response to the ruling, and now they’re going to adjust the discipline based on the public response.

New CBA, functionally the same behaviour. The judge's ruling is entirely 'advisory', and just serves to take heat off of the league while providing a veneer of 'impartiality' that the NFL is free to ignore.

Consider: The NFL spoke to just 10 victims out of the 24, and then only presented the cases of 4 of them to Robinson, their 'independent arbiter'. Does this sound like an organisation that is trying to get the 'right' judgement here?


Now, since it's clear that the NFL doesn't really care about women in general and these women in specific, we should think about these three possibilities instead:
1) A stronger punishment from the arbitrator for a ‘first’ offense would have generated a stronger legal appeal for Watson, and the judgement certainly provided the rationale for throwing the book at him.
2) It's likely that if Watson gets significantly more than a six game suspension from the league he's likely to sue the league anyway.
3) From a PR standpoint, Watson starting week 1 while an injunction unfolds has to be about the worst possible outcome

So the NFL, by and large, is stuck in up a creek of their own paddling.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 06:14:58 AM by Kernewek »
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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #547 on: August 10, 2022, 08:06:13 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Consider: The NFL spoke to just 10 victims out of the 24, and then only presented the cases of 4 of them to Robinson, their 'independent arbiter'. Does this sound like an organisation that is trying to get the 'right' judgement here?

I can't remember why the NFL didn't interview the other 24, but it could easily be that they didn't want to cooperate.

But, more importantly, what do you think the NFL should have done?  They're presenting a case and requesting punishment.  They focused on the four women who, in their opinion, were sexually abused.  If they determined the other six women were just put into an awkward situation without being abused, does that undercut their case?


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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #548 on: August 10, 2022, 09:19:58 AM »

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Consider: The NFL spoke to just 10 victims out of the 24, and then only presented the cases of 4 of them to Robinson, their 'independent arbiter'. Does this sound like an organisation that is trying to get the 'right' judgement here?

I can't remember why the NFL didn't interview the other 24, but it could easily be that they didn't want to cooperate.

But, more importantly, what do you think the NFL should have done?  They're presenting a case and requesting punishment.  They focused on the four women who, in their opinion, were sexually abused.  If they determined the other six women were just put into an awkward situation without being abused, does that undercut their case?
I think it may change the narrative.  I mean the media is saying it is 24 cases of sexual assault, but maybe it is only 4 and of those 4, only 1 would actually have been defined as sexual assault in Texas (the others would have been misdemeanor assault at best).  And that sexual assault while a felony is certainly not the same as other sexual assaults that NFL players have committed.  I mean objectively what is worse coercing your masseuse to give you oral sex or forcibly raping someone in the bathroom of a bar?

This is a contract interpretation case and the NFL just didn't define the terms or the punishment in the actual contract.  That is why Robinson ruled the way she did.  If the NFL wants to beef up the punishment, then it needs to negotiate that into the CBA with the union. 

I expect the amount of games to be increased on the appeal, but it is a hard legal case because courts don't allow you to define things after the fact and then retroactively apply them.  Courts also don't allow you to create new precedent on punishment when you've already negotiated punishment into the CBA.


I think one of two things will happen:  1. Harvey maintains the 6 games but actually fines him like 20 million dollars and requires him to undergo treatment before reinstatement; or 2. Harvey increases the suspension to at least 12 games, and perhaps 17, while again requiring treatment prior to reinstatement.  The 2nd is far more likely, but if the NFL wants to maintain the appearance of a fair process, then keeping the 6 game suspension will do that, while ordering treatment and fining him massively increases the punishment to actually be financially meaningful and at least gives the appearances of fixing the addiction (or whatever ails Watson that makes him think what he did was ok).  That also might not create a situation where Watson appeals and plays while the case is pending.  I don't think the NFL cares about the appearance of a fair process though, so I expect a significant increase in the suspension, which of course will lead Watson to file suit and have this drag on into the season (which seems like a bad idea from a PR standpoint).
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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #549 on: August 10, 2022, 10:58:01 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Under the old system, the league office would leak the possible discipline, weigh the public response to the possible discipline, then adjust the discipline accordingly.

Under the new system, the league has a retired judge make the ruling, they weigh the response to the ruling, and now they’re going to adjust the discipline based on the public response.

New CBA, functionally the same behaviour. The judge's ruling is entirely 'advisory', and just serves to take heat off of the league while providing a veneer of 'impartiality' that the NFL is free to ignore.

Consider: The NFL spoke to just 10 victims out of the 24, and then only presented the cases of 4 of them to Robinson, their 'independent arbiter'. Does this sound like an organisation that is trying to get the 'right' judgement here?

I can't remember why the NFL didn't interview the other 24, but it could easily be that they didn't want to cooperate.

But, more importantly, what do you think the NFL should have done?  They're presenting a case and requesting punishment.  They focused on the four women who, in their opinion, were sexually abused.  If they determined the other six women were just put into an awkward situation without being abused, does that undercut their case?

I have included the rest of the context because it's important to answering your question.

Like I said, the current CBA dictates that player discipline is determined by an independent disciplinary officer, and then the league and the players’ association are granted three days to appeal the officer’s ruling.  The appeal process, as stipulated by the CBA, is heard by either Roger Goodell or someone that he appoints, and that that person's ruling is totally binding.

If you want the verbatim language it goes like this - “The Commissioner or his designee will issue a written decision that will constitute a full, final, and complete disposition of the dispute and will be binding upon the player(s) Club(s) and the parties to this Agreement.”

So this is NFL problem one (which I've already detailed): why have an independent arbiter in the first place?  A: to make people like celticsclay think they're 'the good guys'.

You're asking if it weakens their case when requesting judgement: I'm saying that doesn't matter by design of the CBA, which is a different problem.



NFL problem two: this independent arbiter is a retired federal judge - so we can assume that she is going to do things by whatever rules of evidentiary procedure are hammered out in the CBA.  This is, quite literally, her job. If she doesn't do that, she'll never be hired by the NFL again.

Since she can't do anything except issue suspensions within the remit of the CBA, and she has to do things by the NFL's precedent (or she won't be rehired) she's going to wind up giving a first time offender a suspension of... probably six games. Maybe seven, at a stretch.

Because, as she notes in the decision:

Quote
A demonstrative exhibit used during the hearing indicates that since the revisions to the Policy (from 2015 to date), by far the most commonly-imposed discipline for domestic or gendered violence and sexual acts is a 6-game suspension. Only two players have been suspended for 8 games, one for multiple incidents of domestic violence and the second for the assault of multiple victims. two players have been suspended for 8 games, one for multiple incidents of domestic violence and the second for the assault of multiple victims. A single player has been suspended for 10 games, for multiple incidents of domestic violence for which the player pled guilty to battery.45 It is undisputed that Mr. Watson’s conduct does not fall into the category of violent conduct that would require the minimum 6-game suspension. It likewise is undisputed that prior cases involving non-violent sexual assault have resulted in discipline far less severe than what the NFL proposes here, with the most severe penalty being a 3-game suspension for a player who had been previously warned about his conduct.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22124233-watson-ruling

Now, you can disagree with her assessment that it's non-violent (I do), but the NFL has done a crap job of punishing players accused of violence (there are loads of sources for this) - and yet they are bringing in a judge to make this decision and judges, in general, like to follow precedent. In this case, the decades of pretty light-touch precedent.


So what do I want the NFL do? Well, actually caring about women would be a start, but in terms of actual achievable things:

1 - Stop relying on advisory third parties operating within a very tight remit to whitewash the fact that they (still) want to get away with punishing the players as lightly as possible, they just don't want the PR hit associated with it.
 
2- Expand the conduct policy to include punishments that are not in the remit of suspensions from games (for example: therapy, community service, or even harsher punishments decoupled from existing NFL precedent). This is going to have to be negotiated with the NFLPA, but it's certainly feasible - though the league wouldn't do it).

Or, as put in the decision:
Quote
Although I have found Mr. Watson to have violated the Policy, I have done so using the NFL’s post-hoc definitions of the prohibited conduct at issue. Defining prohibited conduct plays a critical role in the rule of law, enabling people to predict the consequences of their behavior. It is inherently unfair to identify conduct as prohibited only after the conduct has been committed, just as it is inherently unjust to change the penalties for such conduct after the fact.

As I’ve noted above, the NFL is a private organization and can operate as it deems fit, but the post-hoc determination of what constitutes the prohibited conduct here cannot genuinely satisfy the “fairness” prong of the standard of review or justify the imposition of the unprecedented sanction requested by the NFL.
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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #550 on: August 10, 2022, 11:19:11 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Under the old system, the league office would leak the possible discipline, weigh the public response to the possible discipline, then adjust the discipline accordingly.

Under the new system, the league has a retired judge make the ruling, they weigh the response to the ruling, and now they’re going to adjust the discipline based on the public response.

New CBA, functionally the same behaviour. The judge's ruling is entirely 'advisory', and just serves to take heat off of the league while providing a veneer of 'impartiality' that the NFL is free to ignore.

Consider: The NFL spoke to just 10 victims out of the 24, and then only presented the cases of 4 of them to Robinson, their 'independent arbiter'. Does this sound like an organisation that is trying to get the 'right' judgement here?

I can't remember why the NFL didn't interview the other 24, but it could easily be that they didn't want to cooperate.

But, more importantly, what do you think the NFL should have done?  They're presenting a case and requesting punishment.  They focused on the four women who, in their opinion, were sexually abused.  If they determined the other six women were just put into an awkward situation without being abused, does that undercut their case?

I have included the rest of the context because it's important to answering your question.

Like I said, the current CBA dictates that player discipline is determined by an independent disciplinary officer, and then the league and the players’ association are granted three days to appeal the officer’s ruling.  The appeal process, as stipulated by the CBA, is heard by either Roger Goodell or someone that he appoints, and that that person's ruling is totally binding.

If you want the verbatim language it goes like this - “The Commissioner or his designee will issue a written decision that will constitute a full, final, and complete disposition of the dispute and will be binding upon the player(s) Club(s) and the parties to this Agreement.”

So this is NFL problem one (which I've already detailed): why have an independent arbiter in the first place?  A: to make people like celticsclay think they're 'the good guys'.

You're asking if it weakens their case when requesting judgement: I'm saying that doesn't matter by design of the CBA, which is a different problem.



NFL problem two: this independent arbiter is a retired federal judge - so we can assume that she is going to do things by whatever rules of evidentiary procedure are hammered out in the CBA.  This is, quite literally, her job. If she doesn't do that, she'll never be hired by the NFL again.

Since she can't do anything except issue suspensions within the remit of the CBA, and she has to do things by the NFL's precedent (or she won't be rehired) she's going to wind up giving a first time offender a suspension of... probably six games. Maybe seven, at a stretch.

Because, as she notes in the decision:

Quote
A demonstrative exhibit used during the hearing indicates that since the revisions to the Policy (from 2015 to date), by far the most commonly-imposed discipline for domestic or gendered violence and sexual acts is a 6-game suspension. Only two players have been suspended for 8 games, one for multiple incidents of domestic violence and the second for the assault of multiple victims. two players have been suspended for 8 games, one for multiple incidents of domestic violence and the second for the assault of multiple victims. A single player has been suspended for 10 games, for multiple incidents of domestic violence for which the player pled guilty to battery.45 It is undisputed that Mr. Watson’s conduct does not fall into the category of violent conduct that would require the minimum 6-game suspension. It likewise is undisputed that prior cases involving non-violent sexual assault have resulted in discipline far less severe than what the NFL proposes here, with the most severe penalty being a 3-game suspension for a player who had been previously warned about his conduct.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22124233-watson-ruling

Now, you can disagree with her assessment that it's non-violent (I do), but the NFL has done a crap job of punishing players accused of violence (there are loads of sources for this) - and yet they are bringing in a judge to make this decision and judges, in general, like to follow precedent. In this case, the decades of pretty light-touch precedent.


So what do I want the NFL do? Well, actually caring about women would be a start, but in terms of actual achievable things:

1 - Stop relying on advisory third parties operating within a very tight remit to whitewash the fact that they (still) want to get away with punishing the players as lightly as possible, they just don't want the PR hit associated with it.
 
2- Expand the conduct policy to include punishments that are not in the remit of suspensions from games (for example: therapy, community service, or even harsher punishments decoupled from existing NFL precedent). This is going to have to be negotiated with the NFLPA, but it's certainly feasible - though the league wouldn't do it).

Or, as put in the decision:
Quote
Although I have found Mr. Watson to have violated the Policy, I have done so using the NFL’s post-hoc definitions of the prohibited conduct at issue. Defining prohibited conduct plays a critical role in the rule of law, enabling people to predict the consequences of their behavior. It is inherently unfair to identify conduct as prohibited only after the conduct has been committed, just as it is inherently unjust to change the penalties for such conduct after the fact.

As I’ve noted above, the NFL is a private organization and can operate as it deems fit, but the post-hoc determination of what constitutes the prohibited conduct here cannot genuinely satisfy the “fairness” prong of the standard of review or justify the imposition of the unprecedented sanction requested by the NFL.

I still don't understand the relevance of the statement I highlighted, about only focusing on the four women Watson likely sexually-assaulted.  What should the NFL have done differently in that context.

As for the judge's decision, she's wrong multiple times.  She's wrong that there's such a thing as non-violent sexual assault.  She's also wrong in the language you cited.  Do you agree that it's inherently unfair to punish a player for four separate sexual assaults, because he didn't know that that was prohibited conduct?

The idea that the NFL has to identify every single circumstance of prohibited conduct before it can substantially discipline a player is nonsensical.

Let's play with the facts just a second.  Let's assume that one of the masseuses was a child under the age of consent in the state where Watson was located.  He touches her with his penis and demands some version of sex.  That situation isn't spelled out in the CBA, either.  Do we buy that it's unfair to impose rarely imposed, or even unprecedented, discipline?  What if he touched four underage girls with his penis?  Still no specific CBA violation...  Are we still talking 6 games max? 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 11:24:43 AM by Roy H. »


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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #551 on: August 10, 2022, 11:31:43 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Consider: The NFL spoke to just 10 victims out of the 24, and then only presented the cases of 4 of them to Robinson, their 'independent arbiter'. Does this sound like an organisation that is trying to get the 'right' judgement here?

I can't remember why the NFL didn't interview the other 24, but it could easily be that they didn't want to cooperate.

But, more importantly, what do you think the NFL should have done?  They're presenting a case and requesting punishment.  They focused on the four women who, in their opinion, were sexually abused.  If they determined the other six women were just put into an awkward situation without being abused, does that undercut their case?
I think it may change the narrative.  I mean the media is saying it is 24 cases of sexual assault, but maybe it is only 4 and of those 4, only 1 would actually have been defined as sexual assault in Texas (the others would have been misdemeanor assault at best).  And that sexual assault while a felony is certainly not the same as other sexual assaults that NFL players have committed.  I mean objectively what is worse coercing your masseuse to give you oral sex or forcibly raping someone in the bathroom of a bar?

This is a contract interpretation case and the NFL just didn't define the terms or the punishment in the actual contract.  That is why Robinson ruled the way she did.  If the NFL wants to beef up the punishment, then it needs to negotiate that into the CBA with the union. 

I expect the amount of games to be increased on the appeal, but it is a hard legal case because courts don't allow you to define things after the fact and then retroactively apply them.  Courts also don't allow you to create new precedent on punishment when you've already negotiated punishment into the CBA.


I think one of two things will happen:  1. Harvey maintains the 6 games but actually fines him like 20 million dollars and requires him to undergo treatment before reinstatement; or 2. Harvey increases the suspension to at least 12 games, and perhaps 17, while again requiring treatment prior to reinstatement.  The 2nd is far more likely, but if the NFL wants to maintain the appearance of a fair process, then keeping the 6 game suspension will do that, while ordering treatment and fining him massively increases the punishment to actually be financially meaningful and at least gives the appearances of fixing the addiction (or whatever ails Watson that makes him think what he did was ok).  That also might not create a situation where Watson appeals and plays while the case is pending.  I don't think the NFL cares about the appearance of a fair process though, so I expect a significant increase in the suspension, which of course will lead Watson to file suit and have this drag on into the season (which seems like a bad idea from a PR standpoint).
No you didn't?

Yup, you did. In your commitment to contrarianism, you just asked which type of rape is worse, oral or vaginal?

This is disgusting. I hope this thread gets locked. This is a terrible look for the website to be discussing such topics.

Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #552 on: August 10, 2022, 11:41:14 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Consider: The NFL spoke to just 10 victims out of the 24, and then only presented the cases of 4 of them to Robinson, their 'independent arbiter'. Does this sound like an organisation that is trying to get the 'right' judgement here?

I can't remember why the NFL didn't interview the other 24, but it could easily be that they didn't want to cooperate.

But, more importantly, what do you think the NFL should have done?  They're presenting a case and requesting punishment.  They focused on the four women who, in their opinion, were sexually abused.  If they determined the other six women were just put into an awkward situation without being abused, does that undercut their case?
I think it may change the narrative.  I mean the media is saying it is 24 cases of sexual assault, but maybe it is only 4 and of those 4, only 1 would actually have been defined as sexual assault in Texas (the others would have been misdemeanor assault at best).  And that sexual assault while a felony is certainly not the same as other sexual assaults that NFL players have committed.  I mean objectively what is worse coercing your masseuse to give you oral sex or forcibly raping someone in the bathroom of a bar?

This is a contract interpretation case and the NFL just didn't define the terms or the punishment in the actual contract.  That is why Robinson ruled the way she did.  If the NFL wants to beef up the punishment, then it needs to negotiate that into the CBA with the union. 

I expect the amount of games to be increased on the appeal, but it is a hard legal case because courts don't allow you to define things after the fact and then retroactively apply them.  Courts also don't allow you to create new precedent on punishment when you've already negotiated punishment into the CBA.


I think one of two things will happen:  1. Harvey maintains the 6 games but actually fines him like 20 million dollars and requires him to undergo treatment before reinstatement; or 2. Harvey increases the suspension to at least 12 games, and perhaps 17, while again requiring treatment prior to reinstatement.  The 2nd is far more likely, but if the NFL wants to maintain the appearance of a fair process, then keeping the 6 game suspension will do that, while ordering treatment and fining him massively increases the punishment to actually be financially meaningful and at least gives the appearances of fixing the addiction (or whatever ails Watson that makes him think what he did was ok).  That also might not create a situation where Watson appeals and plays while the case is pending.  I don't think the NFL cares about the appearance of a fair process though, so I expect a significant increase in the suspension, which of course will lead Watson to file suit and have this drag on into the season (which seems like a bad idea from a PR standpoint).
No you didn't?

Yup, you did. In your commitment to contrarianism, you just asked which type of rape is worse, oral or vaginal?

This is disgusting. I hope this thread gets locked. This is a terrible look for the website to be discussing such topics.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. 

I think it's fine to point out if punishments are inconsistent, or if facts are different.  But the "which is worse" argument is distasteful and is a road others shouldn't go down.

But, in terms of precedent, the Ben R. case involved a non-cooperating victim.  The NFL made no findings of rape or sexual assault; they were confined to punishing him for buying underage women shots of alcohol.  Here, the NFL made findings of four separate sexual assaults, based upon the accounts of four cooperating victims.  That's different in kind.  In the first case, it was "we can't prove the allegations, but we're punishing you for making the NFL look bad."  In the second, it's "we proved the allegations, and you deserve greater punishment because it's clear you sexually assaulted four women."

« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 11:58:41 AM by Roy H. »


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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #553 on: August 10, 2022, 12:09:44 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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Let's play with the facts just a second.  Let's assume that one of the masseuses was a child under the age of consent in the state where Watson was located.  He touches her with his penis and demands some version of sex.  That situation isn't spelled out in the CBA, either.  Do we buy that it's unfair to impose rarely imposed, or even unprecedented, discipline?  What if he touched four underage girls with his penis?  Still no specific CBA violation...  Are we still talking 6 games max?

From the NFL? Yeah, if they think they can get away with it and if the player is good enough. They don't care about people who don't make them money.

I'll say it again. The NFL is 'presenting a case and requesting a judgement' in the absolute flimsiest way possible to absolve themselves of any blame until they can adequately gauge the public reaction to the 'judgement'. They will then re-calibrate the 'actual' punishment based on that feedback regardless of the existing judgement.

This is, we would assume not very controversially, bad.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #554 on: August 10, 2022, 12:33:41 PM »

Online Moranis

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Consider: The NFL spoke to just 10 victims out of the 24, and then only presented the cases of 4 of them to Robinson, their 'independent arbiter'. Does this sound like an organisation that is trying to get the 'right' judgement here?

I can't remember why the NFL didn't interview the other 24, but it could easily be that they didn't want to cooperate.

But, more importantly, what do you think the NFL should have done?  They're presenting a case and requesting punishment.  They focused on the four women who, in their opinion, were sexually abused.  If they determined the other six women were just put into an awkward situation without being abused, does that undercut their case?
I think it may change the narrative.  I mean the media is saying it is 24 cases of sexual assault, but maybe it is only 4 and of those 4, only 1 would actually have been defined as sexual assault in Texas (the others would have been misdemeanor assault at best).  And that sexual assault while a felony is certainly not the same as other sexual assaults that NFL players have committed.  I mean objectively what is worse coercing your masseuse to give you oral sex or forcibly raping someone in the bathroom of a bar?

This is a contract interpretation case and the NFL just didn't define the terms or the punishment in the actual contract.  That is why Robinson ruled the way she did.  If the NFL wants to beef up the punishment, then it needs to negotiate that into the CBA with the union. 

I expect the amount of games to be increased on the appeal, but it is a hard legal case because courts don't allow you to define things after the fact and then retroactively apply them.  Courts also don't allow you to create new precedent on punishment when you've already negotiated punishment into the CBA.


I think one of two things will happen:  1. Harvey maintains the 6 games but actually fines him like 20 million dollars and requires him to undergo treatment before reinstatement; or 2. Harvey increases the suspension to at least 12 games, and perhaps 17, while again requiring treatment prior to reinstatement.  The 2nd is far more likely, but if the NFL wants to maintain the appearance of a fair process, then keeping the 6 game suspension will do that, while ordering treatment and fining him massively increases the punishment to actually be financially meaningful and at least gives the appearances of fixing the addiction (or whatever ails Watson that makes him think what he did was ok).  That also might not create a situation where Watson appeals and plays while the case is pending.  I don't think the NFL cares about the appearance of a fair process though, so I expect a significant increase in the suspension, which of course will lead Watson to file suit and have this drag on into the season (which seems like a bad idea from a PR standpoint).
No you didn't?

Yup, you did. In your commitment to contrarianism, you just asked which type of rape is worse, oral or vaginal?

This is disgusting. I hope this thread gets locked. This is a terrible look for the website to be discussing such topics.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. 

I think it's fine to point out if punishments are inconsistent, or if facts are different.  But the "which is worse" argument is distasteful and is a road others shouldn't go down.

But, in terms of precedent, the Ben R. case involved a non-cooperating victim.  The NFL made no findings of rape or sexual assault; they were confined to punishing him for buying underage women shots of alcohol.  Here, the NFL made findings of four separate sexual assaults, based upon the accounts of four cooperating victims.  That's different in kind.  In the first case, it was "we can't prove the allegations, but we're punishing you for making the NFL look bad."  In the second, it's "we proved the allegations, and you deserve greater punishment because it's clear you sexually assaulted four women."
It may be distasteful, but it is actually relevant.  Punishment is always based on the actual conduct.  The NFL is arguing for unprecedented punishment for conduct which is objectively not as bad as prior conduct of players.  That matters no matter how distasteful you think it is.
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