Author Topic: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?  (Read 63080 times)

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Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2009, 05:38:02 PM »

Offline RAcker

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I don't think we can make that decision even after the playoffs.  Obviously if we win #18 it wouldn't have been a terrible offseason.  But even if we get bounced from the playoffs, I don't think we can call this past offseason a bust until we find out what we do in this years off season. 

Danny didn't want to overpay for players this season to keep some cap flexibilty.  If he ends up using that cap flexibility in the upcoming offseason to bring in a legit good player, then even if we lose in this year's playoffs, this past offseason will NOT have been a disaster. 


This team is built to win now.  The goal is to win a title this season.  Not next season. 

The team is built with a 3 year window to win it all, the length we'll have Ray Allen.  If we lose this years playoffs (which still is up in the air), and then bring in a legit player to make a run next year....in the words of the great Mr. Meat, two out of three ain't bad. 
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Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2009, 05:40:06 PM »

Offline RAcker

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I don't think we can make that decision even after the playoffs.  Obviously if we win #18 it wouldn't have been a terrible offseason.  But even if we get bounced from the playoffs, I don't think we can call this past offseason a bust until we find out what we do in this years off season. 

Danny didn't want to overpay for players this season to keep some cap flexibilty.  If he ends up using that cap flexibility in the upcoming offseason to bring in a legit good player, then even if we lose in this year's playoffs, this past offseason will NOT have been a disaster. 


This team is built to win now.  The goal is to win a title this season.  Not next season. 

The team is built with a 3 year window to win it all, the length we'll have Ray Allen.  If we lose this years playoffs (which still is up in the air), and then bring in a legit player to make a run next year....in the words of the great Mr. Meat, two out of three ain't bad. 

But why would they bring in a legit player next year and not this year?

It is not like someone's contract is ending that makes big money. 


More to the point, there is no way the Celtics could go into this season thinking "it's OK if we don't go for the title this season, we will go for it next season."



No, more likely what happened is Ainge figured no one would offer more years to Posey.  (he was wrong)

Ainge also likely figured PJ would come back during the season (he would be wrong again)


The weakness off this offseason is that there seemed to be no real backup plan in place.  (or that all the good backup options had already signed with other teams)
I love how we always know what Ainge is "likely" thinking.  Why even have a GM?

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2009, 05:51:10 PM »

Offline Chris

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But why would they bring in a legit player next year and not this year?


Well, the simple answer is that last year there was no one out there who was worth the money.  Next summer (or in the next couple of weeks), their potentially could be.

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2009, 05:53:15 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Maybe his offseason will be considered a failure...

but if in a week there is a flurry of trades/cuts and buy outs (as everyone is expecting) and Ainge is rewarded for his patience and foresight... his offseason will retroactively be considered genius.

So ask the question again in a couple weeks.

Then ask the question again after the playoffs...

And ask it again in a couple of years when Posey is an albatross contract while the Celtics have potentially found someone better to take that kind of money on our roster. 

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2009, 06:00:49 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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This has been a long time on my mind. All of us have credited Ainge as being a superb GM when it comes to drafting. Free agents have been different though. Scalabrini has been a long time coming to prove his signing, PJ was great as well as Eddie House. However, I never cared for Cassell last year and Scott Pollard was a wreck.

What about this past summer? O'Bryant was a terrible signing. Giddens was not a good pick at all either. Walker could still pan out though. Why was Cassels signed? If Ainge had signed someone else instead of O'Bryant we would not be in this same big man pickle right now. It is his fault. I think there were other players better than Giddens still on the board as well. 

Assuming by offseason, you literally mean the months between last year's Game Six victory and Opening Night:
   
2008-06-26      Celtics      J.R. Giddens            first round pick (#30 overall)
2008-06-26     Celtics     Semih Erden          second round pick (#60 overall)
2008-06-26     Celtics     rights to Bill Walker     cash     trade with Wizards
2008-07-16     Celtics          James Posey     lost unrestricted free agent (to Hornets)
2008-07-16     Celtics     Patrick O'Bryant          signed unrestricted free agent (from Warriors) to a 2-year, $3M contract
2008-07-21     Celtics     Eddie House          re-signed unrestricted free agent to a 2-year, $5.6M contract (second year is player option)
2008-07-21     Celtics     Tony Allen          re-signed restricted free agent to a 2-year, $5M contract
2008-08-14     Celtics     J.R. Giddens          signed first round pick to a 2-year, $2M contract with a 2-year, $3.1M team option (date 08-26 per NBA)
2008-08-22     Celtics     Bill Walker          signed second round pick
2008-08-22     Celtics     Darius Miles          signed free agent to a 1-year, minimum contract
2008-09-10     Celtics     Glenn Rivers (Doc Rivers)          re-signed as head coach to a 3-year, $16M contract extension through 2010-11
2008-09-29     Celtics     Sam Cassell          re-signed unrestricted free agent to a 1-year contract
2008-10-20     Celtics          Darius Miles     waived
2008-10-28     Celtics     Danny Ainge          promoted to president of basketball operations and re-signed to a 3-year contract extension through 2012
2008-10-31     Celtics     Rajon Rondo          team exercised contract option for 2009-10

None of the draft picks have done anything, although getting Walker for cash was a good move.

POB and Cassell have done nothing.

House was a key resigning. Tony Allen has, as usual, shown flashes.

Waiving Darius Miles might have been a mistake, and might not have.

On the above alone, Ainge deserves, what, a C? A C-?

Prudent use of the team's assets still allows for additional in-season signings, as others have pointed out. If the Celtics acquire a FA or two that allows for a title defense, then his offseason grade rises. If they stand pat, it falls.

All this to say, the only real grade you can give Ainge at this point is an incomplete.
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Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2009, 06:08:48 PM »

Offline Chief

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If Cleveland or San Antonio make a big move and win the championship and the C's do nothing and don't win a championship, then Danny failed. The goal is to win a ring. Nothing else.

Having said that, I think Danny will make some small moves. Wyc realizes the team needs a few pieces, so I think it will get done. If Danny makes a few small moves and we still lose, then he gets a pass from me.  :-\
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Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2009, 06:21:38 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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I don't think we can make that decision even after the playoffs.  Obviously if we win #18 it wouldn't have been a terrible offseason.  But even if we get bounced from the playoffs, I don't think we can call this past offseason a bust until we find out what we do in this years off season. 

Danny didn't want to overpay for players this season to keep some cap flexibilty.  If he ends up using that cap flexibility in the upcoming offseason to bring in a legit good player, then even if we lose in this year's playoffs, this past offseason will NOT have been a disaster. 


This team is built to win now.  The goal is to win a title this season.  Not next season. 

The team is built with a 3 year window to win it all, the length we'll have Ray Allen.  If we lose this years playoffs (which still is up in the air), and then bring in a legit player to make a run next year....in the words of the great Mr. Meat, two out of three ain't bad. 

But why would they bring in a legit player next year and not this year?

It is not like someone's contract is ending that makes big money. 


More to the point, there is no way the Celtics could go into this season thinking "it's OK if we don't go for the title this season, we will go for it next season."



No, more likely what happened is Ainge figured no one would offer more years to Posey.  (he was wrong)

Ainge also likely figured PJ would come back during the season (he would be wrong again)


The weakness off this offseason is that there seemed to be no real backup plan in place.  (or that all the good backup options had already signed with other teams)
I love how we always know what Ainge is "likely" thinking.  Why even have a GM?

That makes no sense what so ever. 


As for the Ainge was "likely thinking", I am just looking at what he tried to do.  He tried to resign Posey for a limited amount of years (which I agree with)  He never looked to do a plan B if Posey got extra years. 

And the number of PJ Brown comments in the middle of the season about him not comming back while in the offseason not looking to sign a vet big man that can  play C points to him planning on having PJ back. 


Of course no one knows what he was actually thinking. 

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2009, 06:35:09 PM »

Offline gkiteisscal

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Forgive me if this has been stated, but this whole arguement lacks a baseline. Excellent, good, bad, terrible are all adjectives that need a point to be compared to.  So when you say terrible, what is terrible compared to?  If you mean the 07 offseason when he traded spare parts and big al for KG and Ray, then yes it has been beyond terrible.

But that is an unfair comparison, because DA did not have the assets to make any blockbuster trades.  He had a back end of a roster that looked like Powe, BBD, Pruitt, none of whom would get you much.  Beyond that he was over the cap and could not sign a major FA like a Magette.  he also had the 30th draft pick and therefore could not be expected to draft an NBA ready 7-8 man. 

Therefore you are left with the signings and in the end we are talking about James Posey.  It is definetly arguable that Posey would be an asset to this team, but would he help solve our size issues inside, NO.  There were no quality big men available to fill that hole at that time and it does not appear that their are. 

I am not, by any means, a DA fluffer.  But we are whining about a team with the best record in the east and a team with a couple holes in their roster.  When can begin making judgements about DA's offseason after the season is over and once you find an adequate baseline to compare it to!

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2009, 06:45:14 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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To me that we are on pace with last season's record is irrelevant. You knew the starting five would play much better together this year and you also knew that we would have an e-normous target on our back this season. To not "load up" is a mistake to me because it's not whether you're as good as last year it's "have you put the best possible team that you can on the floor?

To me, a team without a legit long back up center, a legit back up point and a legit back up Small forward is not a team that wreaks of "being the best team you can possibly put on the floor".

And by loading up I mean, just putting some decent role players, not world beaters, in those spots.

Mutumbo at center would have been nice. Barnes at small forward would have worked.

I agree with Chief, this team is built to win now. If the big three were all 26 it wouldn't be as big of an issue. There is a very short window for this group.

I really like the youth we have though...

Liek someone else said, Ainge may yet salvage an apparent weak off season in the next two weeks.

If he gets a couple of Vets he probably will have put togehter enough to win again while maintaining a nice young core...   

   

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2009, 07:39:10 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Now Posey is playing terribly?

I anxiously await the accusation on this board that Posey fired from the grassy knoll at JFK.

The lengths some of you will go to to depricate a critical part of the 17th title is amazing.

As for Ainge, the holes in this bench are obvious and severe.
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Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2009, 07:55:26 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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Now Posey is playing terribly?

I anxiously await the accusation on this board that Posey fired from the grassy knoll at JFK.

The lengths some of you will go to to depricate a critical part of the 17th title is amazing.

As for Ainge, the holes in this bench are obvious and severe.

I'm amazed how people deify Posey. But I think there is something to be said that this team has a better record at this point in the season than they did last year and have played a harder schedule. Could this have been a 70 win team with Posey? Maybe. But I think this team is equipped to win a title this season.

We had some great veterans make some great shots last year, but you don't have to win a title with the same , or even similar, pieces than you did the year before. Frankly, aside from one shot and one dunk, Leon had equally as good a playoffs as PJ did
. Does not having Posey hurt? Sure, but only in the sense that people on the team have to take on new roles.

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2009, 08:07:54 PM »

Offline Jon

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I agree with the sentiment that Ainge came up short.  He may yet get out of this mess.  He may pull a deal.  He may manage to get someone to come on before the season is out (either out of retirement or from a buy out).  He may look like a genius for resigning Cassell.  Walker, Pruitt, or POB may all of the sudden start playing well.  Still, all of these things are unlikely, and the fact that he decided to roll the dice on one of these things happening with the relatively narrow window of opportunity the Big Three have isn't smart. 

This team can win it all as presently constituted.  Still, I don't feel great about it.  They narrowly escaped the second round last year.  What worries me is that Cleveland is better than it was last year.  Us?  Our starters are better but our bench is weaker.  Do we have enough fire power then?  I don't know.  If this team gets hot at the right time, no one can stop them.  But will they be hot at the right time?  I don't know. 

I hope Ainge pulls something off.  At the very least, I'd really like to see Cassell integrated next game.  He could be the missing piece off the bench.  If he can play like he did two years ago, it lets Doc rest two of the Big Three at once as Cassell and the 1 Amigo remaining can run a two man game. 

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2009, 08:18:48 PM »

Offline zerophase

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Bill Walker was a good pickup... so was keeping House. Letting Posey walk was a big mistake. I think signing him for 2-3 years isn't a bad idea. I mean he would be able to contribute when the Celtics are still relevant and will be an expiring contract when afterward. Role players like him that don't play many minutes can play for a long time. Just look at Bowen.

Now having that said... there isn't much that Danny could have done. No trade was really reasonable, especially if you have 3 near max contracts. Don't think he isn't/hasn't tried; I'm sure the phones continue to ring.

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Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2009, 08:26:13 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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Letting Posey walk was a big mistake. I think signing him for 2-3 years isn't a bad idea. I mean he would be able to contribute when the Celtics are still relevant and will be an expiring contract when afterward. Role players like him that don't play many minutes can play for a long time. Just look at Bowen.

My goal has been to maintain patience while leaning a bit toward the frustrated side regarding the off-season, because as Chris says, I think there's some value in waiting to levy any definitive judgment on this one.

That said, I don't claim to have been thrilled, particularly regarding the Posey decision - but I think the point above deserves some clarification: While signing Posey for 2-3 years wasn't "a bad idea," as zerophase notes, it also wasn't a viable one.  Once the Hornets offered Pose the fourth year, it's reasonable to expect that he wasn't returning to Boston without getting a similar commitment from the Celtics.

I wanted the Celtics to give Posey that fourth year, and I stand by that.  But I don't think it would be fair to Danny for not signing him to a two or three-year deal.  It simply wasn't an option.

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Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2009, 08:29:56 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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How about....when you hold Danny's position and have a better record than he does, then "you" can say whatever you like.  Of course you can say whatever you like anyway, but I can ignore you.  Please do not include "me" in "we".
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