Author Topic: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?  (Read 63070 times)

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Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2009, 06:25:36 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Yall are nutters... Danny Ainge turned Antoine Walker and a group of rotten carcasses into the 2008 NBA Title, 4 franchise players, Rondo and a group of role players.

You guys realize we basically have 5 allstars/borderline allstars on this team now if you include Rondo?  Crazy.  Ainge is my hero.

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #106 on: February 28, 2009, 06:34:22 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Yall are nutters... Danny Ainge turned Antoine Walker and a group of rotten carcasses into the 2008 NBA Title, 4 franchise players, Rondo and a group of role players.

You guys realize we basically have 5 allstars/borderline allstars on this team now if you include Rondo?  Crazy.  Ainge is my hero.


Ainge has done a great job up to this off-season.  This off-season, he didn't do a good job. 


Hopefully his in season moves will be what the Celtics need.

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #107 on: February 28, 2009, 06:49:45 PM »

Offline BballTim

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The offseason was not good.  No one that was added had trade value.  It was a bench of projects.


Now, we hope they get lucky with Marbury (loads of talent that has translated in lossing) and Moore (a 4th/5th big man) being bought out. 



How many title repeaters can you remember using this strategy when they repeated?

  What would you have put Marbury's chances of getting bought out by now last summer? 5-10% or 75-90%? This was hardly an unforeseen event. And buyouts haven't been a common occurrence in the past so the odds of it happening before now are slim.

We've been reading articles about it since before training camp.   Everyone new Marbury was getting bought out eventually.   

I'd say last year the Celtics had Sam Cassell in mind as soon as Elton Brand got injured.  This stuff isn't secret.



So the Celtics went into the season hoping to get Marbury?  Not a chance.  If that was the case, they never resign Cassell. 


  That's just silly. If the Celts went into the offseason KNOWING they'd get Marbury, they probably don't sign Cassell. If they think Marbury will get bought out they sign Sam just in case and dump him later.

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #108 on: February 28, 2009, 06:57:55 PM »

Offline BballTim

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First of all, Danny's not worried about anything beyond 2011. If he is, he's a fool - despite what you read on here. There are clearly two schools of thought on this deal, one the RealGM point of view, and one that Weedy articulated rather nicely above. I personally find the first laughable to the point of hysteria, but that's my point of view.

Bottom line: Ainge added absolutely nothing of use to this club in the off-season. Period. He's trying to chase a title on a shoestring; the "planning for 2012" stuff is Internet fantasy of the first order. Maybe that's his fault; maybe it isn't. But in the interim, he's added a couple of pieces as best he can. Good for him.

Beyond that, this discussion has been rendered rather moot by the two signings. Time to sit back and see how the new pieces fit.

But if there's no repeat, the topic will be back. I guarantee it.

  Bottom line: you have no idea what Danny's thinking about the future, what kind of budget he's given by the owners, or even whether or not he's operating on a shoestring budget. Laugh all you want at the people who disagree with you but most of them at least know that A) Ainge is outspending most of the league and B) Ainge is outspending most of the contenders. Many of them were also if the opinion that we'd be able to survive the regular season with the team we had without running the big three into the ground. Did you also find that opinion laughable to the point of hysteria?

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #109 on: February 28, 2009, 08:01:21 PM »

Offline Mencius

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Yall are nutters... Danny Ainge turned Antoine Walker and a group of rotten carcasses into the 2008 NBA Title, 4 franchise players, Rondo and a group of role players.

You guys realize we basically have 5 allstars/borderline allstars on this team now if you include Rondo?  Crazy.  Ainge is my hero.
Completely agree about the job Ainge did turning the no upside group he inherited into a championship team.  The question was about this offseason.

If you strictly look at what he did before the regular season started (offseason transactions in a vacuum), I'd say he clearly failed.  If you view the signings of Cassell and POB as insurance/fliers (part of a larger strategy of the calculated gamble of hoping decent guys would be bought out), I still regard it as only a partial success (even in light of signing Marbury and Moore).

I say partial because I would like to have seen Posey signed *and* still employ the hope for buyouts strategy.  My own feeling (and I know I've dragged it out here before) is that Posey's window (and age) is about that of PGA's.  So even as Posey will not be worth what he's paid in the extra year he wanted, neither will Garnett or Pierce be worth what they'll be paid in their final year, so resign Posey and maximize your potential this year and next.

If we'd have Posey *and* Marbury and Moore added to the crew, I think we'd be prohibitive favorites.  As is, there is still concern at backup 3.

For this reason, I regard his offseason (and I'm including his strategy of not spending on lesser light free agents over the summer)as a partial success, since he did land Marbury and Moore.

I realize that it's a stretch to call that the "offseason", but teams can add players into March, as long as they're free agents by March 1st.  Really, I'm talking 2008/09 season rather than just offseason.

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #110 on: February 28, 2009, 08:06:55 PM »

Offline Cman

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Here is an idea that others have floated before, that is worth revisiting: how about we wait until we find out who wins the playoffs before we discuss whether or not Ainge did a good job?
Celtics fan for life.

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #111 on: February 28, 2009, 08:11:48 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Yall are nutters... Danny Ainge turned Antoine Walker and a group of rotten carcasses into the 2008 NBA Title, 4 franchise players, Rondo and a group of role players.

You guys realize we basically have 5 allstars/borderline allstars on this team now if you include Rondo?  Crazy.  Ainge is my hero.
Completely agree about the job Ainge did turning the no upside group he inherited into a championship team.  The question was about this offseason.

If you strictly look at what he did before the regular season started (offseason transactions in a vacuum), I'd say he clearly failed.  If you view the signings of Cassell and POB as insurance/fliers (part of a larger strategy of the calculated gamble of hoping decent guys would be bought out), I still regard it as only a partial success (even in light of signing Marbury and Moore).

I say partial because I would like to have seen Posey signed *and* still employ the hope for buyouts strategy.  My own feeling (and I know I've dragged it out here before) is that Posey's window (and age) is about that of PGA's.  So even as Posey will not be worth what he's paid in the extra year he wanted, neither will Garnett or Pierce be worth what they'll be paid in their final year, so resign Posey and maximize your potential this year and next.

If we'd have Posey *and* Marbury and Moore added to the crew, I think we'd be prohibitive favorites.  As is, there is still concern at backup 3.

For this reason, I regard his offseason (and I'm including his strategy of not spending on lesser light free agents over the summer)as a partial success, since he did land Marbury and Moore.

I realize that it's a stretch to call that the "offseason", but teams can add players into March, as long as they're free agents by March 1st.  Really, I'm talking 2008/09 season rather than just offseason.
If I'm GM of the team I pass on Posey too.  Not worth it.

I also would have passed on Chris Anderson

I guess everyone's upset that we didnt' sign Matt Barnes?  Eh... I guess he's ok.  How are we certain Barnes even would have came here?  And how are we certain Barnes would have offered much more than Tony Allen? 

I like the route Ainge took.  Patience.  Hope for internal player development and anticipate the "flurry of economically inspired trades/buyouts" that would cause talent to fall in our laps.   Good move for Ainge.  Instead of paying a role player 25 million we got a borderline allstar for pennies.  Grade: A+

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #112 on: February 28, 2009, 08:47:39 PM »

Offline Mencius

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I like the route Ainge took.  Patience.  Hope for internal player development and anticipate the "flurry of economically inspired trades/buyouts" that would cause talent to fall in our laps.   Good move for Ainge.  Instead of paying a role player 25 million we got a borderline allstar for pennies.  Grade: A+
Well, it's brilliant getting Marbury and Moore for pennies on the dollar, but would have been *even better* with Posey in the fold too, and it needn't have been an either/or situation (as long as I'm busy spending Wyc's money  ;D  )

Grade B+  (have you no concern whatsoever about backup 3?  Seriously?)



Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #113 on: February 28, 2009, 08:58:22 PM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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Yall are nutters... Danny Ainge turned Antoine Walker and a group of rotten carcasses into the 2008 NBA Title, 4 franchise players, Rondo and a group of role players.

You guys realize we basically have 5 allstars/borderline allstars on this team now if you include Rondo?  Crazy.  Ainge is my hero.
Completely agree about the job Ainge did turning the no upside group he inherited into a championship team.  The question was about this offseason.

If you strictly look at what he did before the regular season started (offseason transactions in a vacuum), I'd say he clearly failed.  If you view the signings of Cassell and POB as insurance/fliers (part of a larger strategy of the calculated gamble of hoping decent guys would be bought out), I still regard it as only a partial success (even in light of signing Marbury and Moore).

I say partial because I would like to have seen Posey signed *and* still employ the hope for buyouts strategy.  My own feeling (and I know I've dragged it out here before) is that Posey's window (and age) is about that of PGA's.  So even as Posey will not be worth what he's paid in the extra year he wanted, neither will Garnett or Pierce be worth what they'll be paid in their final year, so resign Posey and maximize your potential this year and next.

If we'd have Posey *and* Marbury and Moore added to the crew, I think we'd be prohibitive favorites.  As is, there is still concern at backup 3.

For this reason, I regard his offseason (and I'm including his strategy of not spending on lesser light free agents over the summer)as a partial success, since he did land Marbury and Moore.

I realize that it's a stretch to call that the "offseason", but teams can add players into March, as long as they're free agents by March 1st.  Really, I'm talking 2008/09 season rather than just offseason.

I think this is the best and most level-headed explanation of the situation to date.

The Posey situation is always an issue to discuss - its not just about not over-paying, but realizing that the team made what was the 2nd best offer to him, but was out-bid by an over-spending NO team that now regrets the move...its hard to vilify Ainge for not making a poor investment simply for the sake of a player's on-court benefit.

The point about the big 3's value at the end of their deals is well-taken, but you have to factor in for their roles on the team and the fact that they are all likely to still be the 3 best on a contending team for the length of all their deals...so the monetary value is somewhat lessened by the overall impact they have regardless of pay.

As always, I cannot stress enough the importance of weighing opportunity cost when looking at the past summer. Not only was Posey not worth what he got, but it would have prevented the team from spending MLE money on THIS COMING summer's FA crop.

There will be much more talented players on the market this year and considering the buyers market, Boston has a real chance to solidify its spot as the top dog over the next 3 years by adding a true player of impact off the bench.

Moore and Marbury represent quality depth at two positions of need and I believe the team is a true contender that can win a series against anyone in the NBA - unless you are hell-bent on determining that Posey and/or a replacement wing was the only shot this team had, I can't see how Ainge misplayed his hand.

Now, playing in pure theoretics now - lets say that Marbury has no problems accepting his role and harnesses his talent to become the team's 6th man - backing up the 1 and 2 and getting 20-30 minutes to do his thing.

Let's theorize that this now means that Boston will re-sign him to a 3 year deal to match KG's contract and serve as the 6th man for this team's remaining window.

the team can NOW go out and use the LLE to snag a quality veteran wing - say Grant Hill perhaps - or it can bank on Bill Walker's development into that role and spend on another big man...there will be a number of vets who will be searching for MLE money, but will ultimately be looking at less because of the economy and the perception that spending will be tight.

Say the team gets Sheed for that LLE for one year with Marbury getting part of the MLE...then Sheed gets his compensation the following year from the MLE to be made whole...

This may seem complex, but based off the current economic climate, the age, rep, and production of the two vets in questions, and Boston's position as title contenders, these are going to be scenarios that have legit traction.

By NOT signing Posey to a multi-year deal, Ainge has left the window open to spend that money on a player or players of greater impact...if that decision hasn't cost him a chance at this year's ring - which I believe it hasn't - then its smart business....and a successfully managed 2008 season...

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #114 on: February 28, 2009, 09:00:54 PM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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The offseason was not good.  No one that was added had trade value.  It was a bench of projects.


Now, we hope they get lucky with Marbury (loads of talent that has translated in lossing) and Moore (a 4th/5th big man) being bought out. 



How many title repeaters can you remember using this strategy when they repeated?

This idea that you MUST add someone of substance and contribution in order to have had a successful off-season has got to stop...sometimes NOT spending on someone because they aren't worth the price you pay in dollars or years, (or roster spots,) is the true victory.

Considering Ainge just added a high-energy, shot-making, 7 footer, and a former All-Star scoring/play-making PG, I'd have to say that abstaining from spending over the summer was the smart thing to do...

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #115 on: February 28, 2009, 09:03:39 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Do the 2009 Celtics w/ Marbury and Moore lose to the 2008 Celtics w/ Posey and PJ?

hmmm

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #116 on: February 28, 2009, 09:08:38 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Do the 2009 Celtics w/ Marbury and Moore lose to the 2008 Celtics w/ Posey and PJ?

hmmm

We'll see how Starbury plays out, but thus far, I don't think this year's team is quite as good as last year's.  The defense has been more sporadic, and the team hasn't had the same energy overall.  That being said, it's the playoffs that matter.

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Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #117 on: February 28, 2009, 09:13:22 PM »

Offline winsomme

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Do the 2009 Celtics w/ Marbury and Moore lose to the 2008 Celtics w/ Posey and PJ?

hmmm

We'll see how Starbury plays out, but thus far, I don't think this year's team is quite as good as last year's.  The defense has been more sporadic, and the team hasn't had the same energy overall.  That being said, it's the playoffs that matter.

i'd say that this year's team is better, but the main competition is also better.

the question now is how much better are each.....

Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #118 on: February 28, 2009, 09:21:59 PM »

Offline Andy Jick

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the way some of you guys here think, we'll need to go back and start thanking the mom's of these players for their chromosome's correctly splitting...
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Re: When can we say that Ainge had a terrible offseason?
« Reply #119 on: February 28, 2009, 09:24:47 PM »

Offline Jon

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I think people need to define the term "worth" better.  Sure, in a vacuum James Posey isn't worth 25 million dollars.  Furthermore, on a team like the Charlotte Bobcats, he clearly wouldn't be worth 25 million either.  However, he undoubtedly is worth 25 million over 4 years if it means the difference between winning #18 and not winning #18.  Given how close things got last year, I think it's safe to say that the C's wouldn't have won #17 without Posey.  With the additions of Marbury and Moore and the improvements in Rondo and Ray, the C's may have enough for #18 this year.  It still doesn't change two things though.

1) The Cavs and Lakers are better than they were last year.  

2) Ainge still had a bad offseason in the sense he decided to gamble that someone would be bought out (of worth) in one of the few remaining years the Big Three will be in their prime.

By no means is this an overall criticism of Ainge.  Nor is it saying we won't win again this year.  It's simply a criticism of his offseason.  I would have much rather seen him make some moves in the offseason and then try to improve further with buyouts, rather than simply hope someone of worth is bought out and then comes here.  The latter would be an OK philosophy if the Big Three were all 27; however, as they are not, it's not a good idea to risk not being as competitive as possible right now.