Author Topic: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?  (Read 5132 times)

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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2019, 04:38:37 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Very simple Roy - I don't like Irving for basketball reasons because I think he is bad for the team going forward. I think he hurts our chances at success because his playing style clashes with that of his teammates and his Coach's system and because of constant off-the-court drama that is a distraction for the team.
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2019, 04:46:49 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I think a large part of the frustration is that our last championship squad was mostly old players that new how to mesh well.

Yeah but people hated them too. Not quite as deeply except for Ray (he was a whipping boy and subject of a million trade threads even before he left) but Pierce's iso play, KG "not being clutch" and "wearing down" were all prominent themes back then. Plus of course endless pro/anti-Rondo arguments. And Rasheed Wallace might've been the most vitriolically hated guy of all til he was nice enough to be a key part of our playoff run then retire with a couple years left on his deal.

That 1st year 2007-2008, I remember being very positive with maybe some doubts about Perk and Rondo. That team was a juggernaut that just crushed everything in it's path. I do remember doubts folks had in the playoffs as we had a rough path. We played a really good Atlanta team in 7 games and then LeBron in 7 games and then a championship squad in the Pistons in 6.

Remember a lot of people said Danny had destroyed the team by trading Al Jefferson for KG and were not shy about expressing it. In addition to no depth, Perk and Rondo aren't ready, etc.

People enjoyed the wins but after seemingly every loss there was a "we can't win the ring, these guys won't get it together" thread. And the playoffs were just a whirlwind of anxiety and pessimism all the way from Game 4 Atlanta to Game 4 LA, with a lot of posters attacking players, sometimes with cause (remember Doc repeatedly playing Sam Cassell over Eddie House despite Cassell having lost a step and not fitting in well at all?). Good times.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2019, 04:52:01 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think a large part of the frustration is that our last championship squad was mostly old players that new how to mesh well.

Yeah but people hated them too. Not quite as deeply except for Ray (he was a whipping boy and subject of a million trade threads even before he left) but Pierce's iso play, KG "not being clutch" and "wearing down" were all prominent themes back then. Plus of course endless pro/anti-Rondo arguments. And Rasheed Wallace might've been the most vitriolically hated guy of all til he was nice enough to be a key part of our playoff run then retire with a couple years left on his deal.

That 1st year 2007-2008, I remember being very positive with maybe some doubts about Perk and Rondo. That team was a juggernaut that just crushed everything in it's path. I do remember doubts folks had in the playoffs as we had a rough path. We played a really good Atlanta team in 7 games and then LeBron in 7 games and then a championship squad in the Pistons in 6.

Remember a lot of people said Danny had destroyed the team by trading Al Jefferson for KG and were not shy about expressing it. In addition to no depth, Perk and Rondo aren't ready, etc.

People enjoyed the wins but after seemingly every loss there was a "we can't win the ring, these guys won't get it together" thread. And the playoffs were just a whirlwind of anxiety and pessimism all the way from Game 4 Atlanta to Game 4 LA, with a lot of posters attacking players, sometimes with cause (remember Doc repeatedly playing Sam Cassell over Eddie House despite Cassell having lost a step and not fitting in well at all?). Good times.
The Doc hate was pretty intense but I think a lot of it had to do with his tenure here before 2007-08, when the Celtics were far from winning. But Doc was amazing as a coach here for a few years. I still don't think he gets his just due for what he did during those KG years.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2019, 04:53:28 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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A few thoughts

1) Attention.  Trying to separate themselves on this board.  Being the "contrarian" seems to garner more attention.  The hot takes get replies. 

2) Would rather push an agenda than admit being wrong.  We seen this a ton on here.  Transparent for the most part.   Everyone is going to be wrong at some point.  However, some are unwilling to admit it. 

3) Too emotionally invested in the team and setting unrealistic expectations.

4) Personal bias.  Maybe just never the liked the guy before he even joined the Celtics.  This can be rather transparent at times too.

5)  Just trolling. 


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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2019, 05:13:15 PM »

Offline Scintan

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The better question may be:

What is it about Celtics fans that make them the most hypersensitive homers in Boston sports fandom?


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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2019, 06:38:26 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Very simple Roy - I don't like Irving for basketball reasons because I think he is bad for the team going forward. I think he hurts our chances at success because his playing style clashes with that of his teammates and his Coach's system and because of constant off-the-court drama that is a distraction for the team.

Thank you for discussing this head on.  I’m not sure you’re a major example of what I was talking about, but I do recall you making some harsh criticism from time to time.

To me, harsh criticism is appropriate at times, and I understand your criticisms. I’ve made many of the same observations that you have.

But, if those criticisms by you or somebody else became all-encompassing, is that productive or enjoyable? Again, I’m not sure that you’re the perfect example. You don’t seemingly salivate over negative Kyrie news, you’re not starting tons of threads on your disdain for him.  In short, you seem like a Celtics fan annoyed by Kyrie. Others seem to fall into a different category.

And, as a pending free agent, much of the “is he right to build around” questions are relevant.  Does that change if he resigns for four years?  Is there a point that even a “hater” tries to accept the reality that he’s a Celtic and attempts to embrace him?

(I was a trade hater rather than a Kyrie hater, but now that he’s a Celtic I’m trying to focus on his amazing gifts. He maybe only gets 90% out of those gifts, and he’s frustrating off the court, but he’s still better than most PGs we’ve had.)


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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2019, 08:07:33 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Very simple Roy - I don't like Irving for basketball reasons because I think he is bad for the team going forward. I think he hurts our chances at success because his playing style clashes with that of his teammates and his Coach's system and because of constant off-the-court drama that is a distraction for the team.

Thank you for discussing this head on.  I’m not sure you’re a major example of what I was talking about, but I do recall you making some harsh criticism from time to time.

To me, harsh criticism is appropriate at times, and I understand your criticisms. I’ve made many of the same observations that you have.

But, if those criticisms by you or somebody else became all-encompassing, is that productive or enjoyable? Again, I’m not sure that you’re the perfect example. You don’t seemingly salivate over negative Kyrie news, you’re not starting tons of threads on your disdain for him.  In short, you seem like a Celtics fan annoyed by Kyrie. Others seem to fall into a different category.

And, as a pending free agent, much of the “is he right to build around” questions are relevant.  Does that change if he resigns for four years?  Is there a point that even a “hater” tries to accept the reality that he’s a Celtic and attempts to embrace him?

(I was a trade hater rather than a Kyrie hater, but now that he’s a Celtic I’m trying to focus on his amazing gifts. He maybe only gets 90% out of those gifts, and he’s frustrating off the court, but he’s still better than most PGs we’ve had.)
I get people overreacting to out-of-context media hype about Kyrie, or assuming one or two public comments means he's a bad leader and mentor in the lockerroom... I get people not liking him, because he has weird world views... i get people not liking him, because he's yet to commit fully to Boston (something I've explained many times and don't blame him for)... I get people just disliking him, because he represents the first true NBA megastar Boston has ever had in the modern era (not including KG who was an exceptionally unique personality) and all the stuff that comes with being a modern star (major endorsements, social media followings, movies, etc)... I get people not liking him, because he owned Boston before coming to the team...  But the "he's a bad fit" or "his style of play is bad" is the most bizarre to me of all the complaints.   I mean if you compare what Kyrie is doing to Isaiah's MVP-level season.  Thomas shot 46%/38% while taking 19 shots per night, playing 33.8 minutes, and averaging just 5.9 assists with 2.8 turnovers.  We all feel that was objectively the greatest individual season by a Celtic player of the modern era.  Meanwhile, Kyrie is shooting 50%/41% while only taking 18 shots, playing 32.5 minute sand averaging 7 assists with 2.7 turnovers.    He's more efficient than Thomas.  He's a better distributor than Thomas.  He's a better defender than Thomas.  By all accounts, he's a better mentor to the young players than Thomas was and has more leadership qualities.  He's less selfish than Thomas (less shot attempts, more assists, less turnovers, less minutes)...  I mean, Kyrie is playing at a superstar level this season and yet he's still taking less shots than Golden State's 3rd option.  The dude is taking 17.9 shots per game when in reality (based on the fact nobody else on this team has played at a consistent star level), he should be taking more like 24 shots per game similar to James Harden.  His elite efficiency also makes him an ideal fit in a space-and-pace offense... the only guy I'd rather have playing guard for this team would be Steph Curry.   He's also exceptionally clutch and has carried us to some of our greatest victories this season.   

I can at least understand the misguided hate for Kyrie based on many of the above details fans just don't quite understand... but to hate him for his game is ridiculous. 

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2019, 08:09:58 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Very simple Roy - I don't like Irving for basketball reasons because I think he is bad for the team going forward. I think he hurts our chances at success because his playing style clashes with that of his teammates and his Coach's system and because of constant off-the-court drama that is a distraction for the team.

Thank you for discussing this head on.  I’m not sure you’re a major example of what I was talking about, but I do recall you making some harsh criticism from time to time.

To me, harsh criticism is appropriate at times, and I understand your criticisms. I’ve made many of the same observations that you have.

But, if those criticisms by you or somebody else became all-encompassing, is that productive or enjoyable? Again, I’m not sure that you’re the perfect example. You don’t seemingly salivate over negative Kyrie news, you’re not starting tons of threads on your disdain for him.  In short, you seem like a Celtics fan annoyed by Kyrie. Others seem to fall into a different category.

And, as a pending free agent, much of the “is he right to build around” questions are relevant.  Does that change if he resigns for four years?  Is there a point that even a “hater” tries to accept the reality that he’s a Celtic and attempts to embrace him?

(I was a trade hater rather than a Kyrie hater, but now that he’s a Celtic I’m trying to focus on his amazing gifts. He maybe only gets 90% out of those gifts, and he’s frustrating off the court, but he’s still better than most PGs we’ve had.)
I get people overreacting to out-of-context media hype about Kyrie, or assuming one or two public comments means he's a bad leader and mentor in the lockerroom... I get people not liking him, because he has weird world views... i get people not liking him, because he's yet to commit fully to Boston (something I've explained many times and don't blame him for)... I get people just disliking him, because he represents the first true NBA megastar Boston has ever had in the modern era (not including KG who was an exceptionally unique personality) and all the stuff that comes with being a modern star (major endorsements, social media followings, movies, etc)... I get people not liking him, because he owned Boston before coming to the team...  But the "he's a bad fit" or "his style of play is bad" is the most bizarre to me of all the complaints.   I mean if you compare what Kyrie is doing to Isaiah's MVP-level season.  Thomas shot 46%/38% while taking 19 shots per night, playing 33.8 minutes, and averaging just 5.9 assists with 2.8 turnovers.  We all feel that was objectively the greatest individual season by a Celtic player of the modern era.  Meanwhile, Kyrie is shooting 50%/41% while only taking 18 shots, playing 32.5 minute sand averaging 7 assists with 2.7 turnovers.    He's more efficient than Thomas.  He's a better distributor than Thomas.  He's a better defender than Thomas.  By all accounts, he's a better mentor to the young players than Thomas was and has more leadership qualities.  He's less selfish than Thomas (less shot attempts, more assists, less turnovers, less minutes)...  I mean, Kyrie is playing at a superstar level this season and yet he's still taking less shots than Golden State's 3rd option.  The dude is taking 17.9 shots per game when in reality (based on the fact nobody else on this team has played at a consistent star level), he should be taking more like 24 shots per game similar to James Harden.  His elite efficiency also makes him an ideal fit in a space-and-pace offense... the only guy I'd rather have playing guard for this team would be Steph Curry.   He's also exceptionally clutch and has carried us to some of our greatest victories this season.   

I can at least understand the misguided hate for Kyrie based on many of the above details fans just don't quite understand... but to hate him for his game is ridiculous.

Agreed 100%
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PG: Kyrie Irving/Patty Mills/Jalen Brunson
SG: OG Anunoby/Norman Powell/Matisse Thybulle
SF: Gordon Hayward/Demar Derozan
PF: Giannis Antetokounmpo/Robert Covington
C: Kristaps Porzingis/Bobby Portis/James Wiseman

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2019, 08:12:24 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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In a word, it’s like the fans are married to the Celtics.  When you spend so much time together, you see the warts more than anyone.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2019, 08:25:52 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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In a word, it’s like the fans are married to the Celtics.  When you spend so much time together, you see the warts more than anyone.
Bigger issue is that the fans are dating Kyrie and are afraid he's going to be a runaway bride:  https://youtu.be/VP5hxpWe1V0

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2019, 10:11:28 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Why the constant attacks on our players?

Drunken posting.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2019, 10:32:23 PM »

Offline cltc5

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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2019, 10:38:39 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Drunken late night posting is a good guess.
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2019, 10:39:56 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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He's more efficient than Thomas.

Not really.  Thomas posted a .625 TS% scoring efficiency that season.  Irving has been fantastic, but at .602 TS trails Thomas' scoring efficiency.

The reason is that Thomas excelled at getting to the FT line.  Thomas got to the FT line a whopping 5 more times every 36 minutes. And this is a huge difference.  Not only because of scoring efficiency, but because it creates foul pressure on the other team, getting their players in foul trouble and affecting the other coache's rotations.

And while Kyrie has a slightly better AST/TO ratio, overall, Thomas turned the ball over at a minuscule 10.4% TOV% rate, which is quite a bit lower than Kyrie's still excellent 12.1% TOV% rate.

In terms of overall productivity, Thomas accrued Win Shares at a whopping .234 WS/48 rate (7th in the NBA that season) that season, ending up at a whopping 12.5 Win Shares (9th).  In historical terms, that season by Thomas ranked as the 9th highest WS by a Boston player in the 3-PT era, and 6th highest WS/48 rate.  Only Larry Bird, McHale, KG & Pierce ever posted higher total WS in a season and only Bird & KG ever posted a higher WS/48 rate in the 3PT era.  Even when you expand it to all of Celtic history, the only names that sneak in above him are names like Russell, Macauley & Sam Jones.   In terms of total points & assists, that season by IT is in the rare company of Bird & Havlicek for 2000 points & 400 assists.  His prior (2015-16) season was also in their exclusive company in the 1800/500 club.

Irving, again, has been fantastic, but trails in this efficiency at .204 WS/48 (ranked 9th this season) and, assuming he plays all remaining games of this season, is on pace for a total of 10.4 WS (he's currently ranked 15th).   If Kyrie stays healthy and plays in all remaining games, he should be able to join IT, Bird & Havlicek in the 1800/500 club.

All that said, Irving has, indeed been excellent this season in terms of offensive efficiency and production.   That he is trailing that particular season by Thomas should in no way be considered a negative.  His numbers are without any doubt as good as we could reasonably hope for from him, considering that his productivity numbers this year are at or near career highs and all are easily more than All-Star level.  They just aren't quite up there with what Thomas achieved in that special season before his hip failed him.

Quote
By all accounts, he's a better mentor to the young players than Thomas was and has more leadership qualities.

I don't really know how you can be sure of this.   This is just speculation.

The team that currently surrounds Irving is very different than the one that surrounded Thomas.  Far, far more talented.
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2019, 10:48:40 PM »

Offline Erik

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Tldr: Confirmation bias.

There are some people that will never change their mind regardless of overall data, and cling to solitary instances. Sometimes it’s a simple: he had a bad game so I’m right he’s bad, or he had a good game so Im right he’s good. Sometimes the same exact event can be viewed completely different based on your preconceptions. For example, I believe that in big games Kyrie has to carry the late game offensively and see Kyrie jogging down the court because he played a lot of minutes and was conserving. Someone else who has already determined that Kyrie is a (insert here), will see that he’s quit on the team.