Author Topic: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals  (Read 83656 times)

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Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #120 on: April 23, 2009, 11:29:38 AM »

Offline Chris

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If Giddens was ready to contribute defensively in the NBA, I'm pretty sure Doc would have find minutes for him.

Really? As I'm not convinced that's the case. Rivers waited forty games to play Delonte West in his rookie season, ditto Ryan Gomes in his. Rondo and Powe saw the court sooner but hardly had defined roles in 06-07. All four have since proven themselves as NBA starters, or near enough.


West was injured for much of those 40 games, and Gomes was actually given a shot right out of the gate as a rookie, but looked completely lost and overmatched. 

Powe also had no clue what he was doing in '06-'07, and didn't figure out where he was supposed to be on the court until late last season.

You can make all these arguments that Doc held rookies back, but the fact is, not many of them proved they belonged on the floor in their rookie years.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #121 on: April 23, 2009, 11:38:26 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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If Giddens was ready to contribute defensively in the NBA, I'm pretty sure Doc would have find minutes for him.

Really? As I'm not convinced that's the case. Rivers waited forty games to play Delonte West in his rookie season, ditto Ryan Gomes in his. Rondo and Powe saw the court sooner but hardly had defined roles in 06-07. All four have since proven themselves as NBA starters, or near enough.


West was injured for much of those 40 games, and Gomes was actually given a shot right out of the gate as a rookie, but looked completely lost and overmatched. 

Powe also had no clue what he was doing in '06-'07, and didn't figure out where he was supposed to be on the court until late last season.

You can make all these arguments that Doc held rookies back, but the fact is, not many of them proved they belonged on the floor in their rookie years.
The only clear case of "holding back" I've seen with Doc is when the C's were in full tank mode.

He played Telfair when Rondo was clearly a better option and the PG of the C's future. But that was for tanking purposes. Once we'd clinched our #2 lottery spot Telfair's minutes dropped. Rondo still got to play though.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #122 on: April 23, 2009, 04:40:50 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Yeah, of course the rebounding prowess is a positive for him, but it's not like it's something he can rely on, as he was a PF.

Giddens was a SG in college.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=15187

that comment confused me as well.

My mistake, clumsy grammar. As BudweiserCeltic explains above, what I meant that rebounding is a nice skill for a guard to have but not exactly a big factor. If he was a superb rebounder for his position and a PF/C, things would be different.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #123 on: April 23, 2009, 04:46:36 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Giddens is so naif defensively. Every D-Leaguer looks like a savy 10 year NBA veteran next to him...

It's comments like this that confuse me about Giddens.  You've mentioned several times that Giddens has tools but isn't intelligent on defense, yet Danny claims that he can contribute defensively in the NBA already.  Also, every scouting report I read listed defense as one of Giddens' biggest positives.  

If Giddens was ready to contribute defensively in the NBA, I'm pretty sure Doc would have find minutes for him.

Like Tony Allen... oh, wait...

Exactly. Tony Allen averaged 20 minutes per game this season. And he got injured. Oh wait what? For a good part of the season our main weakness was exactly the lack of a defensively solid backup wing.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #124 on: April 23, 2009, 04:49:54 PM »

Offline cordobes

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If Giddens was ready to contribute defensively in the NBA, I'm pretty sure Doc would have find minutes for him.

Really? As I'm not convinced that's the case. Rivers waited forty games to play Delonte West in his rookie season, ditto Ryan Gomes in his. Rondo and Powe saw the court sooner but hardly had defined roles in 06-07. All four have since proven themselves as NBA starters, or near enough.

So hasn't Rivers' M.O. typically been to have his hand forced, by injuries, by financial commitments, and by these kids' subsequent strong play?

I don't agree, for the reasons others have stated. But even if it's that the case, then Doc would have played Giddens, because injuries forced his hand.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #125 on: April 23, 2009, 04:58:29 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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If Giddens was ready to contribute defensively in the NBA, I'm pretty sure Doc would have find minutes for him.

Really? As I'm not convinced that's the case. Rivers waited forty games to play Delonte West in his rookie season, ditto Ryan Gomes in his. Rondo and Powe saw the court sooner but hardly had defined roles in 06-07. All four have since proven themselves as NBA starters, or near enough.

So hasn't Rivers' M.O. typically been to have his hand forced, by injuries, by financial commitments, and by these kids' subsequent strong play?

I don't agree, for the reasons others have stated. But even if it's that the case, then Doc would have played Giddens, because injuries forced his hand.

That's just flawed reasoning. Just as the existence of playing time doesn't mean that a player is good enough to play, the absence of it doesn't mean that a player is not good enough to play. Even with all the injuries, there was still Ray and Pierce in there that took the bulk of the SG/SF minutes. There was still House, who Doc will play over the rookies without second thought. Then came Marbury, which Doc needed to implement to our system. Heck, Walker was in our roster, when it was depleted, and he barely got playing time even if he was given high praises from Doc and Ainge since training camp.

Not saying that Giddens was ready for heavy minutes or anything like that, but that Doc didn't play him is meaningless as far as I'm concered as it regards the capabilities of a player to play in the NBA level. The NBA is littered (a bit of an exaggeration here) with players that just need a chance to play to prove themselves, that eat the bench when less capable players are on the floor for one reason or another (experience for one).

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #126 on: April 23, 2009, 05:11:19 PM »

Offline cordobes

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I don't know what I'm discussing here anyway. Arguing against a GM talk phrase about a rookie in the draft night? I've actually watched Giddens play enough to be absolutely certain he's not NBA ready defensively. And those who disagree, should explain to me what am I seeing wrong. Just in terms of manxman fundamentals, he doesn't get low enough when closing out; he tends to attempt to block shots only with his right hand; he's over-aggressive with his hands; etc.

Yeah, he has good defensive potential - I even stated in the OP that his niche in the NBA may be as a specialist wing defender; but he needs the savy, the experience and to polish some aspects of his game. But right now, a guy like Trey Johnson can easily put him in the air with a small fake. That wouldn't happen with a NBA ready defender.

I'll never understand why people argue about basketball without knowing what they're talking about. Simply stating "oh, but Ainge said X" and "Ainge said Y" is not a proper argument, from my point of view.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #127 on: April 23, 2009, 05:14:20 PM »

Offline cordobes

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That's just flawed reasoning. Just as the existence of playing time doesn't mean that a player is good enough to play, the absence of it doesn't mean that a player is not good enough to play. Even with all the injuries, there was still Ray and Pierce in there that took the bulk of the SG/SF minutes. There was still House, who Doc will play over the rookies without second thought. Then came Marbury, which Doc needed to implement to our system. Heck, Walker was in our roster, when it was depleted, and he barely got playing time even if he was given high praises from Doc and Ainge since training camp.

Not saying that Giddens was ready for heavy minutes or anything like that, but that Doc didn't play him is meaningless as far as I'm concered as it regards the capabilities of a player to play in the NBA level. The NBA is littered (a bit of an exaggeration here) with players that just need a chance to play to prove themselves, that eat the bench when less capable players are on the floor for one reason or another (experience for one).

If Doc sees in Giddens a NBA ready defender, why hasn't he played him when he needed a defensive backup wing so much? Because he lacks experience? Precisely, he's not NBA ready. Courtney Lee or Mbah a Moute were playing NBA defence basically since day 1. Giddens is not on their level.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #128 on: April 23, 2009, 05:22:04 PM »

Offline cordobes

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He's a much better off-ball prospect than you give him credit for


Wow, really? Much better? How much better? Because I've been praising his off-the-ball game quite a bit! Just in this thread, I repeated that, and I quote myself, "he moves very well off the ball". In fact, I argued that he may have a future in the NBA merely due to his defence and off-the-ball game. And you still think I don't give him credit enough? What's the level of credit he deserves? Should we call him a more athletic Rip Hamilton? Rudy Fernandez with a better shot? Maybe a rich man's Reggie Miller as his celling? Really, I'm curious.


Quote
He's also improved across the board - so you can call any part of his game sub-par if you want, but he's developed substantially over the last 2 years.

Look, let's be serious here: I didn't deny he developed (although because I don't care); I just added he's still sub-par. What's your point? That I'm wrong? He shoots 68% from the charity stripe and 28% from distance. Isn't this sub-par shooting for a NBA guard? Is really that what you're trying to argue? The only reason he developed, if he did, is because he was so horrific to start with.



he hasn't shown the ability to take his mental game to a championship level of execution as a limited role player on the top level of performance.


Post-modernism has arrived to basketball.  ::)

"Mental game" is a cliché used too often.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #129 on: April 23, 2009, 05:22:47 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Who is Giddens?

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #130 on: April 23, 2009, 05:27:22 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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That's just flawed reasoning. Just as the existence of playing time doesn't mean that a player is good enough to play, the absence of it doesn't mean that a player is not good enough to play. Even with all the injuries, there was still Ray and Pierce in there that took the bulk of the SG/SF minutes. There was still House, who Doc will play over the rookies without second thought. Then came Marbury, which Doc needed to implement to our system. Heck, Walker was in our roster, when it was depleted, and he barely got playing time even if he was given high praises from Doc and Ainge since training camp.

Not saying that Giddens was ready for heavy minutes or anything like that, but that Doc didn't play him is meaningless as far as I'm concered as it regards the capabilities of a player to play in the NBA level. The NBA is littered (a bit of an exaggeration here) with players that just need a chance to play to prove themselves, that eat the bench when less capable players are on the floor for one reason or another (experience for one).

If Doc sees in Giddens a NBA ready defender, why hasn't he played him when he needed a defensive backup wing so much? Because he lacks experience? Precisely, he's not NBA ready. Courtney Lee or Mbah a Moute were playing NBA defence basically since day 1. Giddens is not on their level.

That's not a question for me, that's a question for Doc. I don't think Giddens was ready to be a top notch defender myself, but that doesn't mean that I don't think he could have played some minutes at the NBA level and contribute. That I don't think he would get better throughout the season as he is taught discipline and held accountable for any defensive lapses (something that I doubt occurs much in D-League). As is, he's better defensively than many players currently in the NBA, and some get quality minutes.

Why is Mikki Moore getting on the floor then, even when Powe and Baby were options, when you feel he's a defensive liability and really hasn't played well for the C's?

There's a trust factor in here, and a track record to which Doc defaults to. He trusts experence, and he trust veterans to pull through. This explains many of the times Doc went small last year with Posey at the 4, even though it wasn't that good of a lineup... because he trusted those particular players with experience. This explains why he played PJ Brown so much, even when he was sucking, until Brown finally started playing with some level of consistency.

Bottom line is, that even with all the injuries, wing depth was still there.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 05:40:40 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #131 on: April 23, 2009, 06:09:43 PM »

Offline Atzar

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I'll never understand why people argue about basketball without knowing what they're talking about. Simply stating "oh, but Ainge said X" and "Ainge said Y" is not a proper argument, from my point of view.

With all due respect, I'm a lot more inclined to believe Ainge's opinion than yours.  You've watched a bunch of games on a not-very-good video feed from nba.com.  He has direct access to the kid's practices, as well as game footage from now all the way back to his KU days - and probably even from high school, if he wanted it for some reason. 

With that said, I think there's a lot of difference between 'ready to contribute defensively in the NBA' and 'ready to be a defensive ace in the NBA'.  People bite on shotfakes in the NBA all the time, but it doesn't mean they aren't good defenders.  Tony Allen is notorious for it, yet he's universally regarded as at least a good defender, and most consider him very good.  With all of this said, though, I took Ainge's comments to mean that he could hold his own defensively in the NBA, but currently his offensive game isn't enough to get him minutes.  I don't necessarily think Danny was endorsing JR seeing the court in a meaningful game.


Post-modernism has arrived to basketball.  ::)

"Mental game" is a cliché used too often.


Every player in the league would disagree with you.  Ask MJ if mind games played a role in his game.  Ask Paul Pierce the same question.  Ask Rondo, or Baby, or even Ray and Eddie if confidence is important to their jumpshots.  Ask any player if homecourt is a significant advantage.  These are all aspects of the mental game, and they are very important to basketball.

As for the topic relevant to the comment, Giddens has admitted that he's nervous and his legs feel like jelly when he steps on an NBA court.  Is this not noteworthy?  This is one of the biggest reasons that Billy got occasional real minutes this season while Giddens saw 7 minutes in garbage time:  Walker showed the ability to keep his composure at the NBA level, and JR didn't.  I really don't think this side of the game can be dismissed as a cliche.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #132 on: April 23, 2009, 06:12:29 PM »

Offline elcotte

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He's improved his shooting substantially over the court of the summer and this season, including his FT accuracy,  which was a must.

He's still subpar.

Quote
His ability to read the court and make plays for others is excellent - i'd equate it to Delonte West in terms of him being a 2-guard that can find cutters and kick-out options when he gets himself in trouble - also very adept at dump-off/drop-off passes to bigs when he draws defensive attention from help defenders.

I don't see this.

Out of curiosity, what are you guys basing your assessments on?  Have you watched his D-league games?  (This isn't a sarcastic question).

In my case, yes, about half a dozen of them.

what are his stats for the post season and regular season in the d league?

http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/index.jsp?player=jr_giddens

Cordobes quoted for truth.

Two words for JR: Bench fodder.

And for the record, if Ainge fails to bring in a quality wing in the off-season who can defend and shoot from the perimeter, it'll be time to seriously ratchet up the discussion about his job performance. That failure would be inexcusable. Veteran wing help is a top off-season priority, along with an end to Danny's collection of 7-foot stiffs - oops, "low risk, no upside" bigs, and, again, a veteran point off the bench.

You and Cordobes must be identical twins... :)

poor mother....

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #133 on: April 23, 2009, 06:29:16 PM »

Offline cordobes

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I'll never understand why people argue about basketball without knowing what they're talking about. Simply stating "oh, but Ainge said X" and "Ainge said Y" is not a proper argument, from my point of view.

With all due respect, I'm a lot more inclined to believe Ainge's opinion than yours.  You've watched a bunch of games on a not-very-good video feed from nba.com.  He has direct access to the kid's practices, as well as game footage from now all the way back to his KU days - and probably even from high school, if he wanted it for some reason. 

With that said, I think there's a lot of difference between 'ready to contribute defensively in the NBA' and 'ready to be a defensive ace in the NBA'.  People bite on shotfakes in the NBA all the time, but it doesn't mean they aren't good defenders.  Tony Allen is notorious for it, yet he's universally regarded as at least a good defender, and most consider him very good.  With all of this said, though, I took Ainge's comments to mean that he could hold his own defensively in the NBA, but currently his offensive game isn't enough to get him minutes.  I don't necessarily think Danny was endorsing JR seeing the court in a meaningful game.

Sorry to break it for you, but there are three major problems with that kind of argument:
1) Sometimes Ainge lies. It's part of the job. For example, have you ever heard a manager in the draft night saying bad things about his pick?

2) Sometimes Ainge is wrong.

3) It's a formal fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority


I've presented my arguments in defence of my position, explicitly pointing out some of the moves that Giddens doesn't master. Either you explain what I'm seeing wrong or there's no point on carrying on this conversation; it's useless to debate with people whose only argument is an Appeal to Authority.


Post-modernism has arrived to basketball.  ::)

"Mental game" is a cliché used too often.


Every player in the league would disagree with you.  Ask MJ if mind games played a role in his game.  Ask Paul Pierce the same question.  Ask Rondo, or Baby, or even Ray and Eddie if confidence is important to their jumpshots.  Ask any player if homecourt is a significant advantage.  These are all aspects of the mental game, and they are very important to basketball.

As for the topic relevant to the comment, Giddens has admitted that he's nervous and his legs feel like jelly when he steps on an NBA court.  Is this not noteworthy?  This is one of the biggest reasons that Billy got occasional real minutes this season while Giddens saw 7 minutes in garbage time:  Walker showed the ability to keep his composure at the NBA level, and JR didn't.  I really don't think this side of the game can be dismissed as a cliche.

First, you are using a strawman argument. I didn't say that the mental part is not important; just that it's also a cliché used too often, mostly by people who don't actually have the tools to scout players from a fundamentals perspective and just throw the "not mentally ready" gimmick.

Second, and more important, I'm watching Giddens playing in the D-League. I'm identifying flaws in his game when he's playing in the D-League, not in the NBA. How exactly the fact that he's nervous in the NBA is relevant for this?

You theory is that the fact that he's not mentally ready to play in the NBA is what causes his deficiencies in terms of individual skills when he plays in the D-League? Quite interesting, to say the least. You should write a book on this, the coaching community around the world would be shocked.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #134 on: April 23, 2009, 06:33:12 PM »

Offline cordobes

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He's improved his shooting substantially over the court of the summer and this season, including his FT accuracy,  which was a must.

He's still subpar.

Quote
His ability to read the court and make plays for others is excellent - i'd equate it to Delonte West in terms of him being a 2-guard that can find cutters and kick-out options when he gets himself in trouble - also very adept at dump-off/drop-off passes to bigs when he draws defensive attention from help defenders.

I don't see this.

Out of curiosity, what are you guys basing your assessments on?  Have you watched his D-league games?  (This isn't a sarcastic question).

In my case, yes, about half a dozen of them.

what are his stats for the post season and regular season in the d league?

http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/index.jsp?player=jr_giddens

Cordobes quoted for truth.

Two words for JR: Bench fodder.

And for the record, if Ainge fails to bring in a quality wing in the off-season who can defend and shoot from the perimeter, it'll be time to seriously ratchet up the discussion about his job performance. That failure would be inexcusable. Veteran wing help is a top off-season priority, along with an end to Danny's collection of 7-foot stiffs - oops, "low risk, no upside" bigs, and, again, a veteran point off the bench.

You and Cordobes must be identical twins... :)

poor mother....

BillFromBoston running out of basketball-related arguments and starting to use ad hominem attacks! Such a surprise!